Jedi, who died and made them god?

Originally posted by TheBalance
i'll settle it,
rex is right allround and plus there's more
Escape81 u r right
[B]Rampant, Shut the F*ck up you are a sith and exactly like Jam-Jul, i have respected both of you guys on other occasions but now i realize u guys are the reason i have had to help ppl out of suicide and failed sometimes, u r the reason they end up ending their lives because they were raped by parents and/or friends and all the ppl like you who knew about it wouldn't step in and save their f*cking life. You Sicken Me!

Wtf. We really didnt want to know your life story. And there was no need to turn this argument nasty either. We were all having a perfectly friendly debate and then you come in bashing me and Jam-Jul.

If you had a choice to be mind raped or butt raped in prison multiple times which would you choose. plus obi was saving him from the perils and embarasement of prison and court because he felt Elan innocence and forgave him for making a mistake.

Obi-Wan doesnt have the authority to alter someones mind the way he sees fit. He could have arrested Elan and taken him to court instead. There he would have stood a fair trial and be let off IF he was innocent. However his right to a fair trial went out the door when Kenobi mind tricked him. And who cares if he got 'butt raped' in prison. If he was a criminal then that is probaby what he deserves.

You dont know maybe Elan made a gambling debt for himself and the major gang he has the problem with has taken his sister and he has to sell deathsticks to makle the money pay them. Obi-Wan simply gave him the choice to choose deathstick or bartending, etc.

We dont know Elans backstory so you cant make assumptions like that. And Kenobi didnt know who Elan was either yet he still thought it was up to him to mind trick Elan and change his life, when there is every chance Elan is innocent anyway.

So if someone was mentaly ill and made a choice to kill someone and there was no way to convince the person otherwise you wouldn't step in?
it is you sort of ppl who see a person on the street getting raped or bashed up and you dont step in or even call the authorities to report because "its none of ur business"!

You know absolutely nothing about us so dont come in here assuming things like that. Its not cool and it isnt helping your argument at all. So either argue properly and stop slandering us or leave the debate.

so ur a christian but u refuse to step in for the greater good think about the situation b4 u step in and say its wrong to change a persons mind we do it every day to each other, ur doing it right now but your doing it on a low scale and you do that because you do not have the power(which if you did have you would problablyuse against human kind) or knowledge or wisdom like the jedi do to understand the decision Obi-Wan made.

Thats just a complete load of bullsh*t. You can hardly compare a fictional jedi mind trick to sitting here debating. And why do you keep assuming we are against man kind? Once again you know nothing about us and thus have no right to make comments like that.

he didn't he said "... go home and rethink ur life!" he still gave him the choice to rethink his life, after the thinking he could of gone "no i still want to sell deathsticks!".

But its not up to Obi-Wan to force the guy to go home and rethink his life. Obi-Wan would have been perfectly within his rights to say 'your under arrest' but instead he thought he would take the law into his own hands and mess with this guys mind. In doing this he took away Elans rights which I highly doubt he has the authority to do.

*coughs awkwardly*....well then.

Anyways... No Obi-Wan did not know Elan's background. But... trusting in the will of the Force no doubt, and with his own intuitions, Kenobi knew he would never meet this man again, hence why a background check is irrelevant. Since he only as that moment right there to do something to/for the guy, he had to act, or otherwise very likely leave him in a life of deprevity and drugs. Weighing the potential pros against the cons, as well as considering the "what ifs" of the scenario, resulted in the wiser decision to Mind Trick the man into possibly giving up his degraded lifestyle and hopefully choose a more fulfilling one.

It was either that or just let the man be in a world that was obviously depicted as a generally poor one. Rights were not of any consequence then, as it was hardly the situation to take them into such deep and overly-drawn out consideration as you would have us believe.

Hmmmmm. I understand where you are coming from Tangible but I still have to disagree. What Obi-Wan did was right, but how he did it is the problem. Kenobi should have arrested Elan and presented him to a court instead of changing Elans fate with the force the way he saw fit. The end result would still have ended up the same only Elan would have had all his rights and the ability to plee innocent or guilty in front of the courts. What Kenobi did was an act of arrogance imo, he thought he knew what was best for a lesser being and changed his fate, which frankly he had no right to do.

However im not going to change my stance on this and I doubt you are either so lets just agree to disagree. That way everyone gets to go home happy tonight.

I knew you were gonna say that eventually. Before that happens though, I'll present one last argument for the night.

Looking at this through Earth's perspective, what Elan did was against the law. Taking away Elan's rights is also against the law. To many people, a murderer or convicted criminal, an obvious criminal I should say, should skip the trial and move right on to sentencing. And frankly, in the circumstance of a blatant criminal, that makes sense.

If we agree that Obi-Wan has the wits to know he's not an undercover cop, then that makes Elan a criminal, and yes, a blatant one. If we were to skip right to the sentencing, a sentence Elan would receive no matter what happens, we'll eventually find him cleaned up and no longer dealing. I doubt this is something Elan wants to happen. If we're in agreement about that, at least I sincerely hope you are, then technically, his rights are being removed no matter what.

This can be boiled down to Obi-Wan carrying out Elan's sentence immediately, as it was plain to see what he was and what he's guilty of, no court is needed to decide that. Not to mention that Jedi likely have that authority anyways in Star Wars, as can be seen from their millenia-old peacekeeping ideals. Certainly, upholding the law is part of those ideals, and if a Jedi must use unorthodox means to uphold said laws, he or she must be allowed to do it if no other option is available, as is Elan's case. Obi-Wan did not have the time to arrest Elan, and the man would have gotten away if he hadnt acted.

Obi-Wan's move may have limited Elan's rights, but it was a matter of incovenient timing and lack of other options that forced Obi-Wan to do what he did, to give Elan the same sentence he would have received, trial or not.

If Obi-Wan had treated him to an unfair sentencing, then I'd be on your side, but as he didn't...

Nice post clappingclapping

Im not going to argue with it because you already know my point of view and I think I have said everything that needs to be said. I also think we are both right, it just depends on which way you look at it.

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
I am willing to drop what I said about the Windu thing. Though I think he was hoping Palpatine would put a fight.

"Jam-Jul, you are either a) an idiot, b) an anarchist, or c) severely confused. Congrats."

A. I am not an idiot. I just believe no one had the right to mind rape someone. Which is pretty much what Obi-Wan did.

B. I am not an anarchist. I do not wish for chaos or anything. I just believe a person's right to choose. Not everyone makes the right choices. But that is just part of free will. You may not agree with that choice but it is still their choice to make.

C. Hmm confused? Not realy. I just think it if f*cked up to rob someone of their right to choose.

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
But did the guy learn a lesson? That is part of the point of the whole justice system. He also manipulated the guys mind. Now come on now. Would you like someone to manipulate your mind? Hell I can see the guy eventualy figuring out what happened and trying to hunt down the guy that messed with his mind.

Also as Ox said, he could have been an undercover cop and screwed the guys mission up. If you think about it. That was a realy nice club. I do not see a dealer realy trying to sell drugs in a place like that. Especialy not just saying it out of the blue to Obi-Wan. That sounds more like the behavior of an undercover cop.

Also the guy could have also been there to meet up with a realy hot chick. It is possible that Obi-Wan screwed him out of a chance at getting laid. Yes Obi-Wan did what he thought was right. But who is to say he knows what is best for someone. He might think he does, but that does not mean he is right. A jedi is supposed to think of the consequences of their actions. Obi-Wan did not do that. It looked like to me that the guy was just annoying Obi-Wan so he did it to get rid of him.

You and Rampant Ox are both putting way too much thought in messing with someones mind. He made sure the guy was going to go home this night and think about the current way of living and whether it is what he really wants or not.
If you call that raping someones mind then you are indeed very insane.

overlord very right
and tangible ur close but are missing some things and it is very gracious of you rampant to calm the situation, i'm sorry that i got worked up but i have seen my friends die cause of ur sort of view on this situation.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
[B]Wtf. We really didnt want to know your life story. And there was no need to turn this argument nasty either. We were all having a perfectly friendly debate and then you come in bashing me and Jam-Jul.

I definetly did not tell you my life story. trust me!
and i'm sorry as it states above!

Obi-Wan doesnt have the authority to alter someones mind the way he sees fit. He could have arrested Elan and taken him to court instead. There he would have stood a fair trial and be let off IF he was innocent. However his right to a fair trial went out the door when Kenobi mind tricked him.

I already proved the wrong is this statement. and how did kenobi mind tricking make all it rights go out the door.

And who cares if he got 'butt raped' in prison. If he was a criminal then that is probaby what he deserves.

Exactly what pissed me off in the first place. every human being deserves a better life whether a serial killer or a shop lifter no deserves to be physically and sexually abused, just wait til you experiance trouble in your life and see how you like it with no one to help you, because everybody thinks u deserve it! That reaction is why America still have the death penalty with destroys the very thing ur fighting for.

We dont know Elans backstory so you cant make assumptions like that. And Kenobi didnt know who Elan was either yet he still thought it was up to him to mind trick Elan and change his life, when there is every chance Elan is innocent anyway.

The Jedi can read emotions, thoughts, feelings. A Jedi Master such as Obi Wan would certainly be able to read elans mind and decide, as tangible said, the correct decision weighing up every thing tangible said as well as the lives he saved by stopping elan from selling "death" sticks that night. you have no idea about how a jedi's mind worked so you can never say he took the absolute wrong course of action. Obi Wan may have seen into elans future and elan may have gotten into a fight with some ppl he was trying to sell the deathsticks too and by making elan leave that night early obi may have saved more than just elans life.

You know absolutely nothing about us so dont come in here assuming things like that. Its not cool and it isnt helping your argument at all. So either argue properly and stop slandering us or leave the debate.

A simple yes or no to the hypothesised situation would be adequet.

Thats just a complete load of bullsh*t. You can hardly compare a fictional jedi mind trick to sitting here debating. And why do you keep assuming we are against man kind? Once again you know nothing about us and thus have no right to make comments like that.

Its all mind influence...!

But its not up to Obi-Wan to force the guy to go home and rethink his life. Obi-Wan would have been perfectly within his rights to say 'your under arrest' but instead he thought he would take the law into his own hands and mess with this guys mind. In doing this he took away Elans rights which I highly doubt he has the authority to do.

Actually, he does, it is up to Obi wan, the jedi to make this world a better safer place for all of us even the ones who are making the world bad in the first place.

Ok here in the America, even criminals have rights.

Here is a link to a page with the Miranda Rights listed on it.
http://publicdefender.cjis20.org/miranda.htm

Also I would like to point out that a Police Officer is not allowed to adminster punishment. That is up to the courts. Maybe the law is different in the parts of the world you are from. But that is the way it works here. Yes sometimes guilty people go free, and innocent people get locked up. But that is the way it is. No criminal system is perfect.

Here in America, what Obi-Wan did was not only moraly wrong, it is also illegal. The only time a criminal looses most of their rights here, is when they are actualy convicted of a crime. And even then they still have a couple.

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
Ok here in the America, even criminals have rights.

Here is a link to a page with the Miranda Rights listed on it.
http://publicdefender.cjis20.org/miranda.htm

thanx, i checked it out and its for 1 state what about the other 49. at least we have the same rights and rules all around the country.

Also I would like to point out that a Police Officer is not allowed to adminster punishment. That is up to the courts. Maybe the law is different in the parts of the world you are from. But that is the way it works here...

Yes sometimes guilty people go free, and innocent people get locked up. But that is the way it is. No criminal system is perfect.

Australia has one of the Lowest Crime rates in the world, also considering how bloody huge our country is. We dont even make on the top 60. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_percap-crime-total-crimes-per-capita

Here in America, what Obi-Wan did was not only moraly wrong, it is also illegal. The only time a criminal looses most of their rights here, is when they are actualy convicted of a crime. And even then they still have a couple.

Originally posted by TheBalance

Same Here, A Police officer can try and convince the offender to stop the illegal work which is what Obi-Wan was doing but in a higher standard and and still gave him the choice to say yes or no to the illegal job, i say again all he said was "go home and [B]rethink your life."
He could of said i still want to sell deathsticks.

A Cop trying to convince a young teenager to get off the drugs b4 another cop catchs him is not moraly wrong and not illegal. and when a criminal doesn't have the rights to lose when he goes to court because all rights are wiped and rewritten as they go into the court and rewritten as they leave they dont loose any rights the forfeit them by performing a criminal act and having to come to court. [/B]

Your missing a major point though. Elan didnt have a choice in the matter. If Obi-Wan had simply tried to convince him to stop selling deathsticks that would have been fine. However he used a mind trick to FORCE Elan to stop selling them. He made Elan do something against his will, something Kenobi had no right to do. And you still have rights when you go to court. Innocent until proven guilty. However Kenobi simply assumed that Elan was guilty and made a choice that the courts should have made. That is why all of Elans rights went out the window.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Your missing a major point though. Elan didnt have a choice in the matter. If Obi-Wan had simply tried to convince him to stop selling deathsticks that would have been fine. However he used a mind trick to FORCE Elan to stop selling them. He made Elan do something against his will, something Kenobi had no right to do. And you still have rights when you go to court. Innocent until proven guilty. However Kenobi simply assumed that Elan was guilty and made a choice that the courts should have made. That is why all of Elans rights went out the window.

And to Jam-Jul, I just want to clarify the misconception that Obi-Wan mind tricked Elan on Coruscant. In the Core of the galaxy. That galaxy. Not ours. Star Wars man. Not America.

Very right Tangible,

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Your missing a major point though. Elan didnt have a choice in the matter. If Obi-Wan had simply tried to convince him to stop selling deathsticks that would have been fine.

However he used a mind trick to FORCE Elan to stop selling them.

He made Elan do something against his will, something Kenobi had no right to do.

And you still have rights when you go to court. Innocent until proven guilty.

However Kenobi simply assumed that Elan was guilty and made a choice that the courts should have made. That is why all of Elans rights went out the window.

If you think about it, Kenobi isn't altering the person as HE sees fit. It's as the REPUBLIC sees fit. The Republic (and other RL governments) are going to do that with rehab anyways.

I don't see how Kenobi is violating rights if he's the sherriff in town, charged with upholding those laws.

You're arguing it as if Kenobi killed him and took away his rights that way...

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
Ok here in the America, even criminals have rights.

Here is a link to a page with the Miranda Rights listed on it.
http://publicdefender.cjis20.org/miranda.htm

Also I would like to point out that a Police Officer is not allowed to adminster punishment. That is up to the courts. Maybe the law is different in the parts of the world you are from. But that is the way it works here. Yes sometimes guilty people go free, and innocent people get locked up. But that is the way it is. No criminal system is perfect.

Here in America, what Obi-Wan did was not only moraly wrong, it is also illegal. The only time a criminal looses most of their rights here, is when they are actualy convicted of a crime. And even then they still have a couple.

I think you there is something horribly wrong with you, what you are trying to prove makes no sense at all.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Your missing a major point though. Elan didnt have a choice in the matter. If Obi-Wan had simply tried to convince him to stop selling deathsticks that would have been fine. However he used a mind trick to FORCE Elan to stop selling them. He made Elan do something against his will, something Kenobi had no right to do. And you still have rights when you go to court. Innocent until proven guilty. However Kenobi simply assumed that Elan was guilty and made a choice that the courts should have made. That is why all of Elans rights went out the window.

I really find it funny that this argument is happening.

Kenobi mind tricked Elan into THINKING. NOT STOPPING. JUST THINKING. Hmmm and this is problematical

Let's have a closer look then

Did anyone complain when:
1 Qui Gon did Boss Nass
2 Luke did Bib Fortuna
3 Kenobi did the stormtrooper

Now Qui Gon did this for information if not help in getting to the Nabooan People, but still it took away Boss Nass's right to choose

Luke did Bib Fortuna to get an audience with Jabba, even though Bib worked for Jabba and had been told not to admit. So Luke made this person stop in the discharge of his duties if not go against his boss.

Kenobi did the stormtrooper - Now this one deliberately made an officer of the Official Galactic Government (Even if we are aware that that Govt came around by murder, deciet and misconception, it was still the official govt) competely disregard his chosen duty. THis from any of our public servants would be an automatic "Fired" on the spot if not criminal charges.

Elan got to rethink, just think, yet each of these other people got right royally F***ed by the Jedi. Has there been any complaints or usage of these times in your argument NO And now I shall tell you why

You choose to disregard all these other times, and to only focus one one point for one reason.

like attracts like. A very simple little fact. Us humans love to complicate things but the truth is always simple which makes it hard to believe. WE LOVE COMPLICATION. So lets be simple and true

You won't argue the other points because every one of these was the underdog f***ing with authority, and you love that don't you, You obviously have a problem with authority and with society in general and your comments show someone with definate anti social tendancies, so to you, these other times of jedi mind tricks would not even register as anything but Way to Go DUDE F the system.

But when it comes to Elan - WHo obviously reminds you of yourself or one of your friends, you jump to the defensive. Why is that. People only become agitated and defensive when they know they are guilty of something but want to point the finger somewhere else.

Next time you decide to argue a misuse of power on any level, then please review all instances of that power and then form a judgement, as clearly by your own argument you defended 3 uses and argued 1 by simply only arguing on that one fact. Typical behaviour for someone too closely linked to the argument (Let me guess, you don't like the drugs but the drugs LOVE you) rather than being objective.

There is no argument here, there is no discussion, there is only posturing and ranting and basically a tantrum throwing over this. An argument would have been clear, concise and for the following reasons, not just howling at the top or your lungs after being sent to your room.

And for F***s sake, if you want to seriously discuss this, then formulate your argument against every instance of use of this power, then present it and we will debate the issue, Not this continued BullS**t that you are doing.

My apologies to all moderators -

Every instance of swearing or language in preceeding submissions was self censored before being submitted.

This was because I felt that the language used would demonstrate the level of frustration with seeing such an ongoing travesty that had the hide to insinuate it was an actual debate over a legitimate misuse of power rather than the obvious, unformulated ranting of people anytime that "One of their own" gets a clip up the back of the ear.

I actually suspect that I will be targeted for reprisal with more of thier dribbled crap over this, however, as stated, you get nothing for nothing,

COME BACK WITH OBJECTIONS AND POINTS AGAINST ALL and we will debate the issue, otherwise all it will sound like is that mosquitos are big this year. WHere did it put the RAID???

To tangible, Overlord, Capt Rex and Balance, your patience is noted and applauded but why debate the small issue, debate the point of power and it's uses, if they can only focus on just the one little point then they can't be objective only defensive and not worth the arguement. Let me guess they would all plead "Not Guilty" even with photographic evidence and being caught red handed is my guess

And the Jedi were elected GOD, made to be GOD, and forced to be GOD by every single person who pedestalled them and held them in awe - NAMELY EVERY PERSON IN THE REPUBLIC THAT WAS NOT A JEDI

THe only complainents - Smugglers, theives, criminals and the Sith. Hmmm I WONDER WHY THAT IS

(Wondering if this will have them foaming at the mouth) LOL

Cheers

Nah, Rampant and Jam Jul are just very pointless persons getting their fifteen seconds of fame by being ignorent and rebellious.

In RL, maybe they would need ballgags.

LOL

Thank you, Arch. And I was just going to say something about the whole 'other Mind Tricks.'

Other uses of Mind Tricks, the not successful ones and ones that were cut from the films probably not as relevant, but still taking away 'choice' or 'human rights' or whatever the hell Jam is calling them.

Qui-Gon tried to trick Watto into accepting credits.

Luke tried to trick Jabba into surrendering Han Solo.

In Ep3's script, Kenobi was originally supposed to trick a Utapaun into giving him his mount that he used for his stay on Utapau. That would be deliberate evading use of cash...

You know what's funny, though?

We never see a Dark Lord use a Mind Trick that I can recall, other than Palpatine on General Grievous in Labyrinth of Evil, to prevent the General from killing him (or something). But I think the Sith would be using the Mind Trick for more ruthless things, don't you?