IG vs Phoenix Force (highest avatars)

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Phoenix force doesnt exist as a being unto itself. It is the primal force of creation which those born with the right genetic potential tap into. It is not a being that Thanos could vanquish.

The avatars themselves can see the outcomes of events from the white hot room and it is from seeing this that the Voice decideds when to send the avatars down below to carry out its work. In the End Thanos gave up his power. There was no need for intervention.

A whole lot of speculation on your part, methinks.

Without Jeans intervention in the M'kraan crystal situation the multiverse would have ceased to exist.

So the M'Kraan Crytal would destroy even LT?

Not once in this thread have i said that phoenix IS TOAA. I said that it is heavily suggested to be the case by Chris C and Grant M. However i then went on to state what is definitely the case as is stated in the comics.

I'd rather follow the statements and suggestions of a more credible writer like Jim Starlin, over an X-Fellator like Chris C any day of the week. The guy makes me sick. 😘

more credible writer? His recent work leaves me cold, but Chris Claremont is THE credible writer when it comes to X-men.

"I suppose you have some sort of proof to back that up with, right? As the supreme ruler of the universe, I doubt there was little he couldn't do."

In current continuity phoenix is the primal force of creation second only to TOAA. It is a power source the avatars tap into. It is the avatars what are the phoenixes. Called so because of the death of their old selves in order to become higher beings. Thanos can hardly fight an energy source can he? 🙄

"So the M'Kraan Crytal would destroy even LT?"

Nope because LT exists beyond the multiverse he surveys it.

"I'd rather follow the statements and suggestions of a more credible writer like Jim Starlin, over an X-Fellator like Chris C any day of the week. The guy makes me sick. "

Whether you like his work or not is of no significance. He came up with the original idea behind phoenix and that idea is now continuity. Deal with it.

"A whole lot of speculation on your part, methinks."

Either way the phoenixes are sent down to our plane of reality by 'the voice'. Their heavy likening to seraphim suggests very much so that this Voice is TOAA

"says LT is the highest in the Food chain (not Phoenix Force)" Because LT is the highest in the food chain. The Phoenix force doesnt exist as a being unto itself. It is the primal force of creation which those born with the right genetic potential tap into. It is not a being that Thanos could vanquish. The avatars themselves can see the outcomes of events from the white hot room and it is from seeing this that the Voice decideds when to send the avatars down below to carry out its work. In the End Thanos gave up his power. There was no need for intervention. Without Jeans intervention in the M'kraan crystal situation the multiverse would have ceased to exist.

As you said Phoenix it's just a force ( she cannot fight) ---- you said this

Thanos with HOTU ------ = God's power he was all , he was the Phoenix force. LT is higher than the Phoenix force (or any avatars).

"here is another showing death is multiversal" Ok cool deaths multiversal but it doesnt exist outside of the multiverse it runs through it. Phoenix is beyond deaths power, death is dependent on the phoenix. The phoenixes exist outside of the multiverse only entering our plane of reality when their work is needed.

Beyond the multiverse just mean beyond all the universes , realms , dimentions ----- death is beyond that.

"Eternity holding many universes." Youve misunderstood your own proof. If you actually read the scan and its captions it says that eternity is time incarnate. He is not literally holding universes he is showing Strange many universese from past and present. Jean literally held the univers in her hand and then directly affected it. Im sorry but as i suspected this is clearly a visualisation.

IG punked deaths form in the 616 universe not death as a whole. Death takes on many forms in different universes but as you have shown there is only one death entity. Ig just dealt with death in 616 theres absolutely no evidence whatsoever that death as a whole was defeated only its incarnation in 616. Unlike when the beyonder handled death where the multiversal effects were clearly stated. There are many phoenixes(avatars) throughout the universe however there is only one multiversal force behind them. Shards of the phoenix have been defeated by Set and the goblin force in alternate realities but either entity would be childs play for one who commands the totality of the force's multiversal power. In that respect death and phoenix are alike it seems. Both have forms in different universes however both are single multiversal things Phoenix embodies both life and death it creates the multiverse and destroys it. Without the phoenix there would be no death because phoenix is life.

that's just a guess , you don't know that , but from what it seem marvel just has one death that is in charge of all life(people that dies).

as in SSII Death , Eternity , Choas , order etc were seem stongest in the multiverse.

Lt judges over all enties --------- most concepts are multiverse choas , order , death

and endsong guess what Phoenix Force = entity as well

"Phoenix Force had to follow LT will to save her universe. (not a fraction the entire force)" What you forget KG is that the phoenix was retconned. This scan is of the retcon era but fortunately such foolishness is now a thing of the past. The phoenix was never a being that acted independently like this as was originally intended by Chris C. Phoenix wasnt a separate force at all. Phoenix actually came into being when the primal force of creation became one with Jean after she burnt up and became a being of pure thought. She then reformed and called herself phoenix because of her rebirth. Phoenix was basically downgraded into "just another cosmic being" as Zephro put it earlier. It was made a separate force called Phoenix itself and given a different origin and was made to be simply an entity composed of the energy from the psyches of all living things as opposed to phoenix being a union of Jean and the primal force of creation. It was this entity that LT commanded. Chris C's Phoenix would never have done this.

This is when Phoenix when Phoenix was the primal creation.

It's not so much of a retcon , but writters way of saying stuff.

like i said reton?

just look at endsong Phoenix Force ---- is just a powerful beings --- like death not a force.

another reton?----------- i don't think it's recton i can find so many scans that say Pho is just an entity , but i can also find you many other that says she is force of creation , it's not recton , it's the writter way of writting.

anyway the Pho that had to follow Lt's will was primal force(strange had to bring the whole force ) to save the universe.

because as you know LT doesn't give a damn about one Universe.

from my reading i whould put her above Eternity , and abstract , but Lower than LT , or IG

here is a scan of Phoenix Force ------that says she is a powerful entity

this is new phoenix as you know

Lt= power over all enties

"
As you said Phoenix it's just a force ( she cannot fight) ---- you said this

Thanos with HOTU ------ = God's power he was all , he was the Phoenix force. LT is higher than the Phoenix force (or any avatars)."

Understand this. The phoenix is merely the union between the primal force of creation and those with genetic Phoenix potential. It is not a being unto itself. Merely the force that courses through and created the multiverse and all abstracts within each of the universes. That is not debatable that is FACT in Marvel. It is current continuity. Just pick up the last few Issues off FF which confirm this. From what youre saying HOTU is a force that runs throughout the multiverse and made Thanos one with it. That sounds very much like the primal force of creation which turns beings into a phoenix. I wouldnt be surprised if we later find out that the energy field Thanos tapped into is the same thing.

As it stands in this thread my argument wasnt revolving around phoenix being more powerful than LT. However you keep on mentioninh LT and HOTU even though they arent really gritical to this topic. As it stands howeverThe original Phoenix the union of Jean Grey and creation ( heavily suggested as aforementioned to be TOAA) was more powerful than LT. It said it in the comics. The force that joined with Jean making her phoenix was second only to TOAA itself. Greater than LT. That was the original intention. One that has been more or less returned to. That is again FACT.

In 86 the phoenix was retconned. It became "just another cosmic being" and was downgraded in status and it seems power as well. Its relationship connection to its avatars was changed to as were its origins.

Despite this some writers gave it some credit even during the retcon period. Rachel the weaker avatar was of course know match for theh beyonder when she faced him. Phoenixes power grows along a geometric curve the more they use it and Rachel didnt fully unleash her power till long after beyonder in her battle with Necrom. Beyonder handled Rachel basically. However when he got an insight into the force behind Rachels power. The beyonder who humbled the LT and all beings in the multiverse was humbled himself and he dropped to his knees. That quite understandably can lead you to believe that Jean as Phoenix of the white crown could have punked the beyonder.

As it is. The phoenixes have returned to their original status and have the same relationship with the force. They are seraphim-like and jean as the White Crown phoenix top of the hierarchy, the white crown being a sephiroth which is a means for God to channel himself into the world of man as per the original idea behind phoenix, is again it seems second only to the creator itself. LT is said to destroy universes with a single force blast in order to maintain cosmic balance. Jean holds universes in her hands and remoulds them in terns of both time and space.

"actually it shows that Eternity is not just one universe , but many universes , from different time , reality."

No it doesnt. Im afraid. Eternity as it states is showing strange from within his hands universes from past and present. He is not literally holding universes in his hands as jean did so recently. It is just a visualisation. That is clearly the case lets just move on. Either way the primal force of creation created existence and all of the abstracts in all of the alternate universes. Jean is one with this primal force of creation making her a phoenix. The top phoenix. Its in the comics ive already listed the references countless times.

"that's just a guess , you don't know that , but from what it seem marvel just has one death that is in charge of all life(people that dies)."

Incorrect. Death IS NOT. In charge of al life. Phoenix is all life death holds no power or influence over the being that brought it into existence. Dont argue with me. Its in the comics. Death has power over most forms of life in that they must eventually die. Including the likes of Galactus and Eternity. She/it is not in charge of all life.

" judges over all enties --------- most concepts are multiverse choas , order , death "

No. There are many versions of these concepts throughout the multiverse. With the exception of death it seems none of these are one single entity within the multiverse. Just because they are shown to be aware of events occurring in the multiverse does NOT signify that they are multiversal.

"endsong guess what Phoenix Force = entity as well"

NOT the case at all im afraid. It seems you didnt quite take in the story. That was not a separate entity KG it was one of the missing shards of jean that she needs to make herself whole again. It wasnt a separate phoenix force all in itself just a fragment of jean and her power. The shiars intervention prevented all the shards of jean from regrouping in the white hot room. The shards of jeans phoenix consciousness scattered across the universe and one ended up on earth. This explains its deranged state. Instead of jean being reborn into a new body the deranged shard of her phoenix consciousness resurreted her old one. Come on KG why do you think that this thing you presumed to be the separate phoenix force was so weak? It was merely a fragment of jeans phoenix consciouness. NOT the phoenix force made separate again by a stupid writer. LOL.

"This is when Phoenix when Phoenix was the primal creation.

It's not so much of a retcon , but writters way of saying stuff.

like i said reton?

just look at endsong Phoenix Force ---- is just a powerful beings --- like death not a force.

another reton?----------- i don't think it's recton i can find so many scans that say Pho is just an entity , but i can also find you many other that says she is force of creation , it's not recton , it's the writter way of writting.

anyway the Pho that had to follow Lt's will was primal force(strange had to bring the whole force ) to save the universe.

because as you know LT doesn't give a damn about one Universe.

from my reading i whould put her above Eternity , and abstract , but Lower than LT , or IG

here is a scan of Phoenix Force ------that says she is a powerful entity

this is new phoenix as you know

Lt= power over all enties"

Ive already countered this above KG. What you thought was a separate phoenix force gone mad was in fact just a shard of jeans phoenix self which was interrupted on its way to the white hot room to join with jean making her complete again. Ive already told you and shown you that Greg Pak completely supports GM and Chris C. Why would he then ignore their good work and make the phoenix force a separate cosmic entity, lowering its power and status again?

So unlike what you thought endsong wasnt changing what GM made continuity again. Nothing of the sort KG. FF at the same time went to state that this primal force of creation created all the multiverse and the abstracts such as eternity. Pick em up KG and find out for yourself.

This primal force of creation is stated to be second only to TOAA. This force joined with Jean making her Phoenix of the White Crown. The being that would serve as a vessel for Gods essence to enter the world of man.

Above Eternity? Of course she create him and his millions of counterparts in her spare time.

Above IG? Without a doubt

Above LT? Its stated in the comics from her first appearance. Supported in Secret Wars 2 and now theres been a reversion to the old way its certainly the case once again.

Kgkg, could you tell me where those scans come from?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
"
As you said Phoenix it's just a force ( she cannot fight) ---- you said this

Thanos with HOTU ------ = God's power he was all , he was the Phoenix force. LT is higher than the Phoenix force (or any avatars)."

Understand this. The phoenix is merely the union between the primal force of creation and those with genetic Phoenix potential. It is not a being unto itself. Merely the force that courses through and created the multiverse and all abstracts within each of the universes. That is not debatable that is FACT in Marvel. It is current continuity. Just pick up the last few Issues off FF which confirm this. From what youre saying HOTU is a force that runs throughout the multiverse and made Thanos one with it. That sounds very much like the primal force of creation which turns beings into a phoenix. I wouldnt be surprised if we later find out that the energy field Thanos tapped into is the same thing.

As it stands in this thread my argument wasnt revolving around phoenix being more powerful than LT. However you keep on mentioninh LT and HOTU even though they arent really gritical to this topic. As it stands howeverThe original Phoenix the union of Jean Grey and creation ( heavily suggested as aforementioned to be TOAA) was more powerful than LT. It said it in the comics. The force that joined with Jean making her phoenix was second only to TOAA itself. Greater than LT. That was the original intention. One that has been more or less returned to. That is again FACT.

In 86 the phoenix was retconned. It became "just another cosmic being" and was downgraded in status and it seems power as well. Its relationship connection to its avatars was changed to as were its origins.

Despite this some writers gave it some credit even during the retcon period. Rachel the weaker avatar was of course know match for theh beyonder when she faced him. Phoenixes power grows along a geometric curve the more they use it and Rachel didnt fully unleash her power till long after beyonder in her battle with Necrom. Beyonder handled Rachel basically. However when he got an insight into the force behind Rachels power. The beyonder who humbled the LT and all beings in the multiverse was humbled himself and he dropped to his knees. That quite understandably can lead you to believe that Jean as Phoenix of the white crown could have punked the beyonder.

As it is. The phoenixes have returned to their original status and have the same relationship with the force. They are seraphim-like and jean as the White Crown phoenix top of the hierarchy, the white crown being a sephiroth which is a means for God to channel himself into the world of man as per the original idea behind phoenix, is again it seems second only to the creator itself. LT is said to destroy universes with a single force blast in order to maintain cosmic balance. Jean holds universes in her hands and remoulds them in terns of both time and space.

"actually it shows that Eternity is not just one universe , but many universes , from different time , reality."

No it doesnt. Im afraid. Eternity as it states is showing strange from within his hands universes from past and present. He is not literally holding universes in his hands as jean did so recently. It is just a visualisation. That is clearly the case lets just move on. Either way the primal force of creation created existence and all of the abstracts in all of the alternate universes. Jean is one with this primal force of creation making her a phoenix. The top phoenix. Its in the comics ive already listed the references countless times.

"that's just a guess , you don't know that , but from what it seem marvel just has one death that is in charge of all life(people that dies)."

Incorrect. Death IS NOT. In charge of al life. Phoenix is all life death holds no power or influence over the being that brought it into existence. Dont argue with me. Its in the comics. Death has power over most forms of life in that they must eventually die. Including the likes of Galactus and Eternity. She/it is not in charge of all life.

" judges over all enties --------- most concepts are multiverse choas , order , death "

No. There are many versions of these concepts throughout the multiverse. With the exception of death it seems none of these are one single entity within the multiverse. Just because they are shown to be aware of events occurring in the multiverse does NOT signify that they are multiversal.

"endsong guess what Phoenix Force = entity as well"

NOT the case at all im afraid. It seems you didnt quite take in the story. That was not a separate entity KG it was one of the missing shards of jean that she needs to make herself whole again. It wasnt a separate phoenix force all in itself just a fragment of jean and her power. The shiars intervention prevented all the shards of jean from regrouping in the white hot room. The shards of jeans phoenix consciousness scattered across the universe and one ended up on earth. This explains its deranged state. Instead of jean being reborn into a new body the deranged shard of her phoenix consciousness resurreted her old one. Come on KG why do you think that this thing you presumed to be the separate phoenix force was so weak? It was merely a fragment of jeans phoenix consciouness. NOT the phoenix force made separate again by a stupid writer. LOL.

"This is when Phoenix when Phoenix was the primal creation.

It's not so much of a retcon , but writters way of saying stuff.

like i said reton?

just look at endsong Phoenix Force ---- is just a powerful beings --- like death not a force.

another reton?----------- i don't think it's recton i can find so many scans that say Pho is just an entity , but i can also find you many other that says she is force of creation , it's not recton , it's the writter way of writting.

anyway the Pho that had to follow Lt's will was primal force(strange had to bring the whole force ) to save the universe.

because as you know LT doesn't give a damn about one Universe.

from my reading i whould put her above Eternity , and abstract , but Lower than LT , or IG

here is a scan of Phoenix Force ------that says she is a powerful entity

this is new phoenix as you know

Lt= power over all enties"

Ive already countered this above KG. What you thought was a separate phoenix force gone mad was in fact just a shard of jeans phoenix self which was interrupted on its way to the white hot room to join with jean making her complete again. Ive already told you and shown you that Greg Pak completely supports GM and Chris C. Why would he then ignore their good work and make the phoenix force a separate cosmic entity, lowering its power and status again?

So unlike what you thought endsong wasnt changing what GM made continuity again. Nothing of the sort KG. FF at the same time went to state that this primal force of creation created all the multiverse and the abstracts such as eternity. Pick em up KG and find out for yourself.

This primal force of creation is stated to be second only to TOAA. This force joined with Jean making her Phoenix of the White Crown. The being that would serve as a vessel for Gods essence to enter the world of man.

Above Eternity? Of course she create him and his millions of counterparts in her spare time.

Above IG? Without a doubt

Above LT? Its stated in the comics from her first appearance. Supported in Secret Wars 2 and now theres been a reversion to the old way its certainly the case once again.

Well, you surelly have will to type.

The M'Krann Crystal is just a big gravity box. It keeps the bajillion Neutron Stars inside it from sucking the rest of the Universe into a big Black Hole. Granted, that's a lot of power, but we're still just talking about some sort of spacewarp matrix. The right someone wielding the Space Gem couldn've done this too.

Something that hasn't been touched on, is that like the Pheonix Force, the effectiveness of the Gems are dependant on the wielder. Nebula was incompetant. Even Thanos was not really up to the task. He niether stopped nor even percieved Warlock plotting from within the Soul Gem, nor when he used the Soul Gem while it was on Thanos's hand to ressurect himself, Gamora, and Pip.

Thanos actually had to fight the Abstracts with the IG. Warlock brushed them out of the way like flies as he and the LT powered up for their facedown.

Just the same, matchups like this are much like asking "Which has more points on its surface, a sphere or a cube?"

A few comments:

-The Phoenix Force is multiversal.This was even stated during the retcon years in Excalibur,when Merlin used part of the Force to seed the Excalibur Lighthouse in every reality and create Otherworld and later the Captain Britain Corps.

-The IG,sadly,gives power only over a single Universe.This is remarkably stupid (because if you have absolute control over time you should control various timelines) but was stated very early on.In an issue of Quasar we saw an alternate reality in which Thanos with the IG was stalemated by Maelstrom (which in Cosmos in Collision,a dismal storyline imho,was trying to collapse the Universe in a giant black hole and so he became an avatar of Oblivion).

-To Lord S:I like very much Starlins Captain Marvel and Warlock seventies stuff,and I think Thanos Quest is better than the Infinity Gauntlet,but both are decent.Everything after is just embarassing.

-As Galactic Storm said,Endsong threatened to revert to the old Phoenix Force/Entity,but the twist at the end confirms Morrison interpretation.All manifestations of the phoenix in the normal universes are created by the avatar.This naturally stands also for the firebird in KgKg post (from an old what if in which the x-men lost Inferno) which is an analog of the phoenix shard created by Jean in our reality that later passed on to Madelyne,Rachel,etc.
It is natural that the Phoenix manifestation must go away.When its task is ended it must return to the White Hot Room.

-The M'Krann Crystal is a nexus which is linked to every reality in existence,not just alternate universes but every known dimension in the matter and anti-matter universes.During the Age of Apocalypse it was said that if it opens in just one reality it would consume "everything,everywhere,everywhen". When it first appeared in x-men 107-108,the blinks from the Crystal effectively "suspended" the Universe,instantly and in every direction.Billion years away from the M'Krann Planet Corbeau from the Starcore and Reed Richards realized that for a fraction of a second the nuclear and gravimetric forces that tie matter together were suspended and the whole universe ceased to exist.In adventures of x-men 14 (adapted from the cartoons) we see Living Tribunal holding the brothers (from Amalgam) in his hands,and talk with some "spectral hooded ally" (the Spectre).When D'Spayre succeeds in opening the Crystal and destroying everything the Brothers are released and take their place as embodiment of the Marvelverse and Dcverse.The implication is that the Crystal rebooted both.
While this is not real continuity,it shows very well how the MKC was intended (among other things) as a practical reset button for the universe/multiverse.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
"
As you said Phoenix it's just a force ( she cannot fight) ---- you said this

Thanos with HOTU ------ = God's power he was all , he was the Phoenix force. LT is higher than the Phoenix force (or any avatars)."

Understand this. The phoenix is merely the union between the primal force of creation and those with genetic Phoenix potential. It is not a being unto itself. Merely the force that courses through and created the multiverse and all abstracts within each of the universes. That is not debatable that is FACT in Marvel. It is current continuity. Just pick up the last few Issues off FF which confirm this. From what youre saying HOTU is a force that runs throughout the multiverse and made Thanos one with it. That sounds very much like the primal force of creation which turns beings into a phoenix. I wouldnt be surprised if we later find out that the energy field Thanos tapped into is the same thing.

As it stands in this thread my argument wasnt revolving around phoenix being more powerful than LT. However you keep on mentioninh LT and HOTU even though they arent really gritical to this topic. As it stands howeverThe original Phoenix the union of Jean Grey and creation ( heavily suggested as aforementioned to be TOAA) was more powerful than LT. It said it in the comics. The force that joined with Jean making her phoenix was second only to TOAA itself. Greater than LT. That was the original intention. One that has been more or less returned to. That is again FACT.

In 86 the phoenix was retconned. It became "just another cosmic being" and was downgraded in status and it seems power as well. Its relationship connection to its avatars was changed to as were its origins.

Despite this some writers gave it some credit even during the retcon period. Rachel the weaker avatar was of course know match for theh beyonder when she faced him. Phoenixes power grows along a geometric curve the more they use it and Rachel didnt fully unleash her power till long after beyonder in her battle with Necrom. Beyonder handled Rachel basically. However when he got an insight into the force behind Rachels power. The beyonder who humbled the LT and all beings in the multiverse was humbled himself and he dropped to his knees. That quite understandably can lead you to believe that Jean as Phoenix of the white crown could have punked the beyonder.

As it is. The phoenixes have returned to their original status and have the same relationship with the force. They are seraphim-like and jean as the White Crown phoenix top of the hierarchy, the white crown being a sephiroth which is a means for God to channel himself into the world of man as per the original idea behind phoenix, is again it seems second only to the creator itself. LT is said to destroy universes with a single force blast in order to maintain cosmic balance. Jean holds universes in her hands and remoulds them in terns of both time and space.

"actually it shows that Eternity is not just one universe , but many universes , from different time , reality."

No it doesnt. Im afraid. Eternity as it states is showing strange from within his hands universes from past and present. He is not literally holding universes in his hands as jean did so recently. It is just a visualisation. That is clearly the case lets just move on. Either way the primal force of creation created existence and all of the abstracts in all of the alternate universes. Jean is one with this primal force of creation making her a phoenix. The top phoenix. Its in the comics ive already listed the references countless times.

"that's just a guess , you don't know that , but from what it seem marvel just has one death that is in charge of all life(people that dies)."

Incorrect. Death IS NOT. In charge of al life. Phoenix is all life death holds no power or influence over the being that brought it into existence. Dont argue with me. Its in the comics. Death has power over most forms of life in that they must eventually die. Including the likes of Galactus and Eternity. She/it is not in charge of all life.

" judges over all enties --------- most concepts are multiverse choas , order , death "

No. There are many versions of these concepts throughout the multiverse. With the exception of death it seems none of these are one single entity within the multiverse. Just because they are shown to be aware of events occurring in the multiverse does NOT signify that they are multiversal.

"endsong guess what Phoenix Force = entity as well"

NOT the case at all im afraid. It seems you didnt quite take in the story. That was not a separate entity KG it was one of the missing shards of jean that she needs to make herself whole again. It wasnt a separate phoenix force all in itself just a fragment of jean and her power. The shiars intervention prevented all the shards of jean from regrouping in the white hot room. The shards of jeans phoenix consciousness scattered across the universe and one ended up on earth. This explains its deranged state. Instead of jean being reborn into a new body the deranged shard of her phoenix consciousness resurreted her old one. Come on KG why do you think that this thing you presumed to be the separate phoenix force was so weak? It was merely a fragment of jeans phoenix consciouness. NOT the phoenix force made separate again by a stupid writer. LOL.

"This is when Phoenix when Phoenix was the primal creation.

It's not so much of a retcon , but writters way of saying stuff.

like i said reton?

just look at endsong Phoenix Force ---- is just a powerful beings --- like death not a force.

another reton?----------- i don't think it's recton i can find so many scans that say Pho is just an entity , but i can also find you many other that says she is force of creation , it's not recton , it's the writter way of writting.

anyway the Pho that had to follow Lt's will was primal force(strange had to bring the whole force ) to save the universe.

because as you know LT doesn't give a damn about one Universe.

from my reading i whould put her above Eternity , and abstract , but Lower than LT , or IG

here is a scan of Phoenix Force ------that says she is a powerful entity

this is new phoenix as you know

Lt= power over all enties"

Ive already countered this above KG. What you thought was a separate phoenix force gone mad was in fact just a shard of jeans phoenix self which was interrupted on its way to the white hot room to join with jean making her complete again. Ive already told you and shown you that Greg Pak completely supports GM and Chris C. Why would he then ignore their good work and make the phoenix force a separate cosmic entity, lowering its power and status again?

So unlike what you thought endsong wasnt changing what GM made continuity again. Nothing of the sort KG. FF at the same time went to state that this primal force of creation created all the multiverse and the abstracts such as eternity. Pick em up KG and find out for yourself.

This primal force of creation is stated to be second only to TOAA. This force joined with Jean making her Phoenix of the White Crown. The being that would serve as a vessel for Gods essence to enter the world of man.

Above Eternity? Of course she create him and his millions of counterparts in her spare time.

Above IG? Without a doubt

Above LT? Its stated in the comics from her first appearance. Supported in Secret Wars 2 and now theres been a reversion to the old way its certainly the case once again.

Am not even talking about the comic,the force is seen as a ent( intro). (It’s not a opinion
Read the scan)

There is only one Phoenix force, and not only that many times it has said to be entity.

Primal Force of creation had to obey LT, it was not recon

Most of these Phoenix are only in X-men, when every there has been multivariable universal crisis she is left out.

So it is very hard to gauge the power / compare to an avatar.

- Galactus said the phoenix draws from NEAR limitless power (pho force).
- Phoenix Force ( entire force) had to obey LT’s will
- You were saying Phoenix Force > just because she was multiversal or operates at that level.

As for what am saying am looking at marvel comics at a whole Strange , X-men , Silver Surfer , IG , I war , SS.

I see am not convincing you. lol I was trying to.

Am just showing people scan they can make there own judgment.

Yes phoenix has been said to be great things, life of creation etc. But I would put her below IG.

I though it was = Galactus --- after all my Phoenix readings here is how I would rank

1) TAOO
2) HOTU
3) The Brothers
4) Pre-Beyonder
5) LT
6) IG
7) Phoenix Force
8) High level entities like Eternity / Death / chaos /oblivion etc. ( I have shown many act in a multiversal level)

Marvel seems to ignore it when it comes to the marvel universe as a whole in the cosmic image.

Am out

"I am fire and life incarnate!!"

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
"I am fire and life incarnate!!"

But dont u feel more enlightened now. I remember the days i had to argue with you over a galactus/ phoenix match up. You're made a lot of progress you're nearly there son Im proud of u.

The Gems DO affect other dimensions. They worked in Count Abyss/Darklore's realm. They worked in Asgaurd. They worked in the bizarre place Thanos got knocked in Infinity Crusade. The Stranger used one in Squadron Supreme's alt-Earth (I will not speak of the Ultraverse). Pip has dimension travelled with the Space Gem

Part of the problem we're seing here is that the Cosmology being put forth in the ever-escalating Phoenix backstory just doesn't fit with the cosmology that was put fourth in ThanosQuest and so forth.

If you pic one story to be true, the other's being must be lesser. This is just another symptom of the historical disconnect between Marvel's various editorial desks. Sometimes it seems like they're living in different worlds altogether.

Originally posted by Laminator_X
The Gems DO affect other dimensions. They worked in Count Abyss/Darklore's realm. They worked in Asgaurd. They worked in the bizarre place Thanos got knocked in Infinity Crusade. The Stranger used one in Squadron Supreme's alt-Earth (I will not speak of the Ultraverse). Pip has dimension travelled with the Space Gem

Part of the problem we're seing here is that the Cosmology being put forth in the ever-escalating Phoenix backstory just doesn't fit with the cosmology that was put fourth in ThanosQuest and so forth.

If you pic one story to be true, the other's being must be lesser. This is just another symptom of the historical disconnect between Marvel's various editorial desks. Sometimes it seems like they're living in different worlds altogether.

I agree with this a great deal. And it's not just cosmic vs earth, etc. It occurs even within titles. It drives me freaking batty. I don't mind there being some changes to a character or an idea, but come on.

I don't really think that there has to be a disconnect between the Thanos stories and the PF appearances...I think that if the PF were a true player in those great cosmic stories, there really wouldn't be one. The Phoenix is the sum and substance of ALL that lives. That would include the cosmics as well. Nothing would be able to stand against that power.

As far as Phoenix vs IG...There isn't really anything the IG can do that would affect Phoenix, especially since the aspects of existence that the gems allow the possesor to manipulate were created by Phoenix.

Kgkg, can we get issue numbers for your scans, please?

-Yes,the IG can act on many dimensions,but seemingly only inside the same space-time continuum (timeline).There are 2 Infinity Gauntlets What If and the alternate reality seen in Quasar.
By the way,was the origin of the gems/the Infinity Being retconned?
I only skipped through later stuff.

-Very few writers acknowledge the work of their colleagues.
Claremont generally does it,and even when he retcons he does it expanding on previous stories.Starlin or Byrne often ignore the work of other writers altogether.
To add to the confusion,in Man-Thing there was yet another diverging story of the creation of the Universe/Multiverse,and in the Hellstorm series we've seen true "angels" and a Heaven.

-I agree with cosmic flame however that there is not really a contradiction,and the various mythologies can be reconciled.The PF is very similar to the the Source of the New Gods or the Force of Star Wars:a force which encompasses all of creation and connects every living thing.The New Gods are said indifferently to have been created from the energies of the destruction of Urgrund (the Home of the Old Gods) or from the Source.Both are equally true,because Urgrund was the first world originated from the Source.

-To Kgkg:again the intro to Endsong was meant to be misleading.For 4/5 of the mini the Phoenix is seen as a cosmic entity,but in the end is revealed to be just a stray part of Jean,and even the X-men realize that they are one and the same.So there is no "entity".Endsong very much confirms that all phoenix manifestations derive from Jean (Jean:"I know you're confused,but afterwards,in the White Hot Room,when all our pieces are back together,you'll understand...we'll understand" Phoenix:"Because you and I are one" Jean "yes."😉Claremont made Death say in classic x-men 43 that the phoenix is not a being or an entity,but a force,and all the gold woman and fiery raptor stuff were basically a product of Jean schizophrenia,just a way for her to handle the power.For years this could not be openly addressed because it would have meant that Jean was indeed responsible for the D'Bari genocide.Her acceptation of the name phoenix was a step towards accepting the truth,which Morrison reestablished making her fully phoenix again.
Even if there are some comics which describe the PF as an entity now they have been retconned,just as the Beyonder killing Death (because as of now the Beyonder was just an half cosmic cube) and all phoenixes seen elsewhere are nicely explained as pieces of the original created when the mind of Jean came in touch with the force of creation ("I was split in a trillion pieces around three galaxies"😉.

-The issue with LT and Phoenix was what if II series 6 What if the X-men had lost Inferno

And there you have it people.

The original phoenix, the one Morrison ensured there was a reversion to, the one Greg Pak fully supported wit endsong is the primal force of creation whose power is second only to TOAA. Jean as phoenix of the crown is a sephiroth(the definition of the white crown) which means she is a vessel for the essence of god to enter the world of man.

The phoenixes are all seraphim which means fiery ones, the ones who are sent by God from the heavens into the world of man to burn away the wrongdoings of man and cleanse the world. Seraphim are depicted traditionally as fiery humans with wings.

The phoenix avatars exist beyond existence in the white hot room. From here they are sent by 'The Voice' into our plane of existence to perform their 'destined disinfection' as said by Jean in New Xmen. The phoenixes heal what needs to be healed and burn away what doesnt work. The phoenix energy signature is that of a fiery bird which emanates from the human avatar. NUFF SAID.

The phoenix stories have all been saturated with this symbology it was right in front of your eyes all the time. Some of you just took the comics at face value and never looked into the hidden depths.

As it stands Jean is one with the primal force of creation which is only below TOAA. This force created the multiverse and while it exists beyond it its essence still courses through it. The phoenixes descend upon existence down below to perform their healing duties from within as only they could.

LT was appointed by TOAA to act as a judge for the multiverse. The primal force of creation made that multiverse, IS that multiverse. Phoenix of the white crown has already been stated to be more powerful than LT originally. Grant Morrison has reinstated those ideas and has made them continuity once again. Greg Pak supported this. It seems other writers forother comics have to if recent issues of FF are anything to go by. It also states that this force created eternity and the other abstracts.

Back on topic anyway. Phoenix of the white crown is clearly way beyond the Infinity Gauntlet. That artifact gives ultimate control over an actuality. An aspect of time space. Jean is one with the multiverse, the force behind her power created it.

-Yes,the IG can act on many dimensions,but seemingly only inside the same space-time continuum (timeline).There are 2 Infinity Gauntlets What If and the alternate reality seen in Quasar. By the way,was the origin of the gems/the Infinity Being retconned? I only skipped through later stuff.

Space-time is eternity. Marvel Multiverse is composed of all the different Universes/reality (which is Eternity) from different time same entity. IG owned most of the powerful beings in Marvel.

Eternity, Death, Chaos, Order etc. --- no one in was a challenge to it (Phoenix force / Phoenix entities were no were to be scene)

IG has a multiversal effect just because it was able to defeat these entities. Most have there own realm and domain which is part of the multiverse not universe. Universe is just space/time (eternity) outside realms, Dimensions are part of the Marvel Multiverse.

There were two Phoenix force too, what’s you point?

There is Phoenix Force in what if, in different reality, and in our Reality. Doesn’t mean much, what matter it’s who it defeated.

This is a fight and in a fight IG has defeated all except LT.

LT > Phoenix Force

-Very few writers acknowledge the work of their colleagues. Claremont generally does it,and even when he retcons he does it expanding on previous stories.Starlin or Byrne often ignore the work of other writers altogether. To add to the confusion,in Man-Thing there was yet another diverging story of the creation of the Universe/Multiverse,and in the Hellstorm series we've seen true "angels" and a Heaven.

If it was the creator of everything this wouldn’t happened but it did.

Primal Force had to obey LT

until I see Phoenix force actually beating something like IG am not convinced.

"not really you have to undersand what is Space-time.

Space-time is eternity. Marvel Multiverse is composed of all the different Universes/reality (which is Eternity) from different time same entity. IG owned most of the powerful beings in Marvel."

Eternity isnt multiversal he is just the living embodiment of a universe. Of one actuality. Our universes slither of space/time. Eternity does not encompass the time space continuum. Each universe has its own eternity. Just like each one has its own Galactus. Its in the comics. Its common knowledge. This doesnt need to be debated on.

"Eternity, Death, Chaos, Order etc. --- no one in was a challenge to it (Phoenix force / Phoenix entities were no were to be scene)"

Yes but these are all creations of Phoenix anyway so whats your point? That is CURRENT continuity. Its reverted back to how it was originally. Most of the comics you picked up to enlighten yourself were from the retcon period. Its like arguing about the cube beings being able to take out all the absracts and the celestials. That wouldnt work because they got retconned and are nothing now. You just have to deal with it.

Jean as Phoenix is one with the primal force of creation second only to TOAA. She got retconned. Phoenix became just another cosmic in the universe. GM reverted the phoenix story back to how it was originally. It is CURRENT continuity. Just accept it.

"There were two Phoenix force too, what’s you point?

There is Phoenix Force in what if, in different reality, and in our Reality. Doesn’t mean much, what matter it’s who it defeated."

KG understand this. Get the 86 retcon out of your mind. Just like people had to get the omnipotent beyonder out of their heads. Its just not the case anymore. The terrible mistakes made by writers during that retcon period have been cleared up by GM and Greg Pak. There is only one primal force of creation. It is not the phoenix unto itself. The avatars are the phoenixes. The name is just representative of their death and rebirths into higher beings. There are many avatars in the multiverse which tap into the force but there is only one force. What is so hard to understand. Forget the retcon era comics.

"This is a fight and in a fight IG has defeated all except LT."

Defeated powerful beings CURRENT continuity states are just creations of the primal force of creation which makes jean and others with phoenix potential Phoenixes.

"LT > Phoenix Force"

The retcon Phoenix maybe. However the retcon Phoenix is not what we must go by now. It is not CURRENT continuity. What is CURRENT is that the avatars are the phoenixes. The firebird we see manifested in phoenix stories are just created by the avatars they are shards of themselves. It is not a separate entity. LT was not as powerful as jean when she first united with the primal force. This got retconned. It was the retcon phoenix that you seemed to be reading up on.

Its like me reading Secret Wars because i dont know a lot about the beyonder and then jumping into a cosmic battle thread and saying he would win because he did this and that to LT and all the multiverse and blah blah blah. KG it doesnt work like that. See how silly that is? Anything from 86 up to but not including New Xmen a few years back is retcon era. That stuff has been abolished. It ISNT continuity. So no every piece of work cant be used as evidence KG.

"Primal Force had to obey LT"

Retcon phoenix which equals 'just another cosmic being' obeyed LT. Original Phoenix which is now the one in CURRENT continuity was above LT and created all of the multiverse and was both beyond it and one with it all. It was the primal force of creation which created all of the abstracts and is heavily and not so subtlely made out to be an aspect of TOAA

. The retcon Phoenix was just an energy field given sentience after a communion with Feron. This field was derived from the psyches of everything in the universe. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Thank god thats NOT CURRENT continuity.