IG vs Phoenix Force (highest avatars)

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
"not really you have to undersand what is Space-time.

Space-time is eternity. Marvel Multiverse is composed of all the different Universes/reality (which is Eternity) from different time same entity. IG owned most of the powerful beings in Marvel."

Eternity isnt multiversal he is just the living embodiment of a universe. Of one actuality. Our universes slither of space/time. Eternity does not encompass the time space continuum. Each universe has its own eternity. Just like each one has its own Galactus. Its in the comics. Its common knowledge. This doesnt need to be debated on.

"Eternity, Death, Chaos, Order etc. --- no one in was a challenge to it (Phoenix force / Phoenix entities were no were to be scene)"

Yes but these are all creations of Phoenix anyway so whats your point? That is CURRENT continuity. Its reverted back to how it was originally. Most of the comics you picked up to enlighten yourself were from the retcon period. Its like arguing about the cube beings being able to take out all the absracts and the celestials. That wouldnt work because they got retconned and are nothing now. You just have to deal with it.

Jean as Phoenix is one with the primal force of creation second only to TOAA. She got retconned. Phoenix became just another cosmic in the universe. GM reverted the phoenix story back to how it was originally. It is CURRENT continuity. Just accept it.

"There were two Phoenix force too, what’s you point?

There is Phoenix Force in what if, in different reality, and in our Reality. Doesn’t mean much, what matter it’s who it defeated."

KG understand this. Get the 86 retcon out of your mind. Just like people had to get the omnipotent beyonder out of their heads. Its just not the case anymore. The terrible mistakes made by writers during that retcon period have been cleared up by GM and Greg Pak. There is only one primal force of creation. It is not the phoenix unto itself. The avatars are the phoenixes. The name is just representative of their death and rebirths into higher beings. There are many avatars in the multiverse which tap into the force but there is only one force. What is so hard to understand. Forget the retcon era comics.

"This is a fight and in a fight IG has defeated all except LT."

Defeated powerful beings CURRENT continuity states are just creations of the primal force of creation which makes jean and others with phoenix potential Phoenixes.

"LT > Phoenix Force"

The retcon Phoenix maybe. However the retcon Phoenix is not what we must go by now. It is not CURRENT continuity. What is CURRENT is that the avatars are the phoenixes. The firebird we see manifested in phoenix stories are just created by the avatars they are shards of themselves. It is not a separate entity. LT was not as powerful as jean when she first united with the primal force. This got retconned. It was the retcon phoenix that you seemed to be reading up on.

Its like me reading Secret Wars because i dont know a lot about the beyonder and then jumping into a cosmic battle thread and saying he would win because he did this and that to LT and all the multiverse and blah blah blah. KG it doesnt work like that. See how silly that is? Anything from 86 up to but not including New Xmen a few years back is retcon era. That stuff has been abolished. It ISNT continuity. So no every piece of work cant be used as evidence KG.

"Primal Force had to obey LT"

Retcon phoenix which equals 'just another cosmic being' obeyed LT. Original Phoenix which is now the one in CURRENT continuity was above LT and created all of the multiverse and was both beyond it and one with it all. It was the primal force of creation which created all of the abstracts and is heavily and not so subtlely made out to be an aspect of TOAA

. The retcon Phoenix was just an energy field given sentience after a communion with Feron. This field was derived from the psyches of everything in the universe. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Thank god thats NOT CURRENT continuity.

LT was holding Phoenix in 1989 so much for the retcon theory.
😄

"Byrne's retcon happened to Phoenix Force in 1986

LT was holding Phoenix in 1989 so much for the retcon theory."

So if Byrne retconned Phoenix in 86 and the phoenix never changed back to its original state until about 2 years ago what point are you trying to make my friend?

All youve done is make me have to reiterate just exactly why phoenix would win. People have the retcon era (1986 to 2003) too firmly embedded in their heads. Its not how phoenix was originally intended and its not how the phoenix situaation is in CURRENT continuity.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
"Byrne's retcon happened to Phoenix Force in 1986

LT was holding Phoenix in 1989 so much for the retcon theory."

So if Byrne retconned Phoenix in 86 and the phoenix never changed back to its original state until about 2 years ago what point are you trying to make my friend?

did you read that comic?

Phoenix force ( the force had to obey LT)

Originally posted by kgkg
It was the primal force.

did you read that comic?

Phoenix force ( the force had to obey LT)

KG i see you've misunderstood your proof again. Theres a difference between being a primal force and THE primal force. A primal force is just a fundamental force that is around from the beginning. THE primal force is the one from which all others originate from. The original Phoenix was the union of jean and THE primal force of creation.

The retcon Phoenix was a primal force which embodided passion namely the passion to create and destroy. It wasnt responsible for the creation of the abstracts like the original phoenix was intended to be. It was just a sentient energy field derived from the psyches of all living things. Its just not the same is it Kg?

Try reading up on New Xmen so that you can find out about what actually is current continuity. Seriously. It really is like me reading Secret Wars and then spouting off about the Beyonder.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Try reading up on New Xmen so that you can find out about what actually is current continuity. Seriously. It really is like me reading Secret Wars and then spouting off about the Beyonder.

Like Gravity

Byrne made Phoenix force an entity with a mind of its own.

What new X-men are you talking about?

Where did she create all the entities? What issue was that can you give me issue number still doesn't show it is > IG

But what issues? Did it create the abstract?

"No you seem to forget that before Byrne's" retcon The Phoenix force was just that a force.

Like Gravity"

KG understand this. The retcon phoenix was a sentient energy field. It was just the living psychic energy of all beings in the universe. This phoenix wasnt THE primal force of creation. It was just another cosmic entity. It just embodied life and death. Your comparison to gravity is far from accurate. Think of the force as something akin to the one in Star Wars in how it lives and breathes in everything. All existence is one with it. Everything in creation was connected to it. The retcon phoenix was just sentient psychic energy that was parasitic in nature. It fed off the energy of life unborn when sentient.

"Byrne made Phoenix force an entity with a mind of its own."

Yes youre quite right. He made it just another cosmic entity. As opposed to jean actually being phoenix after the union between her and THE primal force of creation (heavily suggested to be an aspect of TOAA) Jean actually was phoenix. The firebird energy signature just representative of her death and eventual rebirth as a higher being.

"What new X-men are you talking about?"

The New Xmen was a comic book series. It started just over 2 years ago i believe. It gets rid of the 86 retcon and clarifies all inconsistencies within the phoenix story. Id read it if i was you.

"Where did she create all the entities? What issue was that can you give me issue number still doesn't show it is > IG"

Check through FF. The last 6 issues. It shows that the phoenix force created abstracts such as eternity and so on. When comparing characters in comics you go by their feats in the comics, their status in current continuity and just general common sense on the character. Rucking in a universe and owning some universal abstracts, as opposed to creating the multiverse and said abstracts, holding a universe in ones hand and remoulding it in terms of both time and space. The power to create far exceeds the power to destroy. Thanos could become the absolute power of an actuality. This universe and its slither of time/ space. The phoenixes power and influence extend through all of creation. It is the multiverse its essence courses through it.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
"No you seem to forget that before Byrne's" retcon The Phoenix force was just that a force.

Like Gravity"

KG understand this. The retcon phoenix was a sentient energy field. It was just the living psychic energy of all beings in the universe. This phoenix wasnt THE primal force of creation. It was just another cosmic entity. It just embodied life and death. Your comparison to gravity is far from accurate. Think of the force as something akin to the one in Star Wars in how it lives and breathes in everything. All existence is one with it. Everything in creation was connected to it. The retcon phoenix was just sentient psychic energy that was parasitic in nature. It fed off the energy of life unborn when sentient.

"Byrne made Phoenix force an entity with a mind of its own."

Yes youre quite right. He made it just another cosmic entity. As opposed to jean actually being phoenix after the union between her and THE primal force of creation (heavily suggested to be an aspect of TOAA) Jean actually was phoenix. The firebird energy signature just representative of her death and eventual rebirth as a higher being.

"What new X-men are you talking about?"

The New Xmen was a comic book series. It started just over 2 years ago i believe. It gets rid of the 86 retcon and clarifies all inconsistencies within the phoenix story. Id read it if i was you.

"Where did she create all the entities? What issue was that can you give me issue number still doesn't show it is > IG"

Check through FF. The last 6 issues. It shows that the phoenix force created abstracts such as eternity and so on. When comparing characters in comics you go by their feats in the comics, their status in current continuity and just general common sense on the character. Rucking in a universe and owning some universal abstracts, as opposed to creating the multiverse and said abstracts, holding a universe in ones hand and remoulding it in terms of both time and space. The power to create far exceeds the power to destroy. Thanos could become the absolute power of an actuality. This universe and its slither of time/ space. The phoenixes power and influence extend through all of creation. It is the multiverse its essence courses through it.

As for creation of everything you are the very few who actually believe that she is next to god

i need issue numbers

"Can you give me issue of FF last 6 issue what's" the issue number"

Of course. Thats the least i can do for the man who made me this sig 🙂

FF 521-527. Can someone verify this please i dont have my comics with me im at uni.

"As for creation of everything you are the very few who actually believe that she is next to god"

I know and i can understand why people wouldnt know the truth behind the phoenix. The phoenix character has existed for 25years. For 17 years the retcon was in place. Thats no longer the case. Just like you have to accept the massive changes to the beyonder and the cube beings, so must you accept the changes in phoenix. The original idea made so much more sense in the first place and isnt full of inconsistencies.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
"Can you give me issue of FF last 6 issue what's" the issue number"

Of course. Thats the least i can do for the man who made me this sig 🙂

FF 521-527. Can someone verify this please i dont have my comics with me im at uni.

"As for creation of everything you are the very few who actually believe that she is next to god"

I know and i can understand why people wouldnt know the truth behind the phoenix. The phoenix character has existed for 25years. For 17 years the retcon was in place. Thats no longer the case. Just like you have to accept the massive changes to the beyonder and the cube beings, so must you accept the changes in phoenix. The original idea made so much more sense in the first place and isnt full of inconsistencies.

Are you talking about what Reed says?

Reed says big bang = Phoenix force but what does he know?

Originally posted by kgkg
I have the issue I didn't even see the Phoenix force.

Are you talking about what Reed says?

Reed says big bang = Phoenix force but what does he know?

Here are some quotes from Richard's history at Marvel.com:

"From his days as a child prodigy with special aptitude in the areas of mathematics, physics and mechanics to his adults years as the smartest man in the planet..."

"To the world, Mr. Fantastic is a genius who regularly rewrites Hawking and routinely decodes alien languages."

That's what Reed knows.

Coupled with his understanding of the beginning of the universe (which I would assume would be the beginning of space-time as we understand it) is Galactus origin story that he and the abstracts were born at the same time through the same process. What more do you need?

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
Here are some quotes from Richard's history at Marvel.com:

"From his days as a child prodigy with special aptitude in the areas of mathematics, physics and mechanics to his adults years as the smartest man in the planet..."

"To the world, Mr. Fantastic is a genius who regularly rewrites Hawking and routinely decodes alien languages."

That's what Reed knows.

Coupled with his understanding of the beginning of the universe (which I would assume would be the beginning of space-time as we understand it) is Galactus origin story that he and the abstracts were born at the same time through the same process. What more do you need?

So read knows more than Thanos with the HOUTU? More than LT?

Originally posted by kgkg
I have the issue I didn't even see the Phoenix force.

Are you talking about what Reed says?

Reed says big bang = Phoenix force but what does he know?

What does he know? Well i think Cosmic Flame answered your query suitably enough. However what Reed says is supported by what Eternity says in Xmen Forever about Phoenix being the being that creates life again after the death of everything. He calls it 'the assurance of life after death' i believe.

In the same series when the Stranger wanted to wipe out reality and create a new one with him coming out on top as the supreme being of a new existence what force did he want to use to make it happen? Ok.

In Uncanny Xmen from 101 to 137(Phoenixes entry and exit from Marvel comics) Jean is one with THE primal force of creation that is one with everything, second only to TOAA it states.

You have more than enough evidence laid out for you. Its just time you put that retcon to the back of your mind. Considering the retcon existed for the majority of time Phoenix existed i know its hard but thats how it is in comics.

Unless you dont have them already pick up the entire series of New Xmen, as well those Uncanny issues AND Classic Xmen 8, 42 and 43

Back to the Seraphim thing... I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Because the PF heirarchy parallels that of the angels does not mean they have powers akin to angels. The avatars' powers do not stem directly from God, they come from the PF. So an analogy would be PF:Avatars::God😖eraphim. Doesn't say anything about their powers. Jean is not Lucifer, Jean is not Michael, stop with the religion. Both LT and the PF have been referenced as TOAA's runner up, but LT was established by a being who happened to be part of, and in control of, everything in the multiverse.

Originally posted by Beyonder
So read knows more than Thanos with the HOUTU? More than LT?

The phoenix isnt an entity to beat. The phoenix is its avatars. Merely called so because of their union with the primal force of creation and rebirth as higher beings. Forget all those images you have of it being a separate entity. Thats all retcon rubbish which hasnt been continuity for quite some time now. The phoenixes exist outside of the multiverse Thanos with HOTU had dominion over. They ONLY intervene in affairs when told to do so by 'The Voice' (heavily suggested to be TOAA). In The End series Thanos eventually gave up his power. If we assume that this Voice actually is TOAA then we can assume also that it knew of this outcome and so know intervention was required. But yeah that is jus a guess as to why any phoenix avatars werent involved in The End. As it stands CURRENT continuity follows the ideas of Chris C. Grant Morrison started this reversion and Greg Pak despite how it initially seems from reading a preview(yeah im talking to you KG lol) Greg cements it. The phoenixes are vessels for THE primal force of creation which is second only to TOAA. All manifestations of the phoenix in a reality are down to that universes avatar. There is not a separate phoenix force entity. Their name and power signature are merely symbolic of their death and rebirths.

"Because the PF heirarchy parallels that of the angels does not mean they have powers akin to angels. The avatars' powers do not stem directly from God, they come from the PF"

Marvel cleverly decided to avoid the explicit religious theme that DC has for its supreme beings and merely deals with equivalents which are suggested to have certain roles through symbology and through names and phrases which directly reference a religious thing. I have already stated what the white crown is. It is a sephiroth a vessel for the essense of God. The phoenixes are linked to seraphim which means fiery ones and were traditionally depicted as fire emblazoned humans with wings. These seraphim are ordered by God to enter the world of man to sort out mans wrongdoings. The Phoenixes are ordered by an unseen Voice to enter our plane of existence (as shown in New Xmen) to carry out their healing and/or disinfection duties.

" Jean is not Lucifer, Jean is not Michael, stop with the religion"

Of course shes not. Marvel opted out of the explicit religious route. Which i think was a smart move because not all readers are of the Christian religion which DC's supreme beings are moulded from. Marvel only has equivalents who occupy similar roles in their comics. Jean as Phoenix of the white Crown through name and through actions in the comics is akin to an Archangel. Her Dc equivalent it seems would be Michael.

"Both LT and the PF have been referenced as TOAA's runner up, but LT was established by a being who happened to be part of, and in control of, everything in the multiverse."

While Phoenix was in its original state she was said to be second only to TOAA. Phoenix got retconned. LT was then top of the hierarchy. Grant M sorted that godawful mess out and the Phoenix situation is how it was. How it should be.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The phoenix isnt an entity to beat. The phoenix is its avatars. Merely called so because of their union with the primal force of creation and rebirth as higher beings. Forget all those images you have of it being a separate entity. Thats all retcon rubbish which hasnt been continuity for quite some time now. The phoenixes exist outside of the multiverse Thanos with HOTU had dominion over. They ONLY intervene in affairs when told to do so by 'The Voice' (heavily suggested to be TOAA). In The End series Thanos eventually gave up his power. If we assume that this Voice actually is TOAA then we can assume also that it knew of this outcome and so know intervention was required. But yeah that is jus a guess as to why any phoenix avatars werent involved in The End. As it stands CURRENT continuity follows the ideas of Chris C. Grant Morrison started this reversion and Greg Pak despite how it initially seems from reading a preview(yeah im talking to you KG lol) Greg cements it. The phoenixes are vessels for THE primal force of creation which is second only to TOAA. All manifestations of the phoenix in a reality are down to that universes avatar. There is not a separate phoenix force entity. Their name and power signature are merely symbolic of their death and rebirths.

Um, no. No Phoenix wasn't involed in The End because the Phoenix isn't that powerful. Your just making excuses as to why Phoenix didn't show up.

It didn't show up during the IG series when Thanos was taking over the universe.
When Warlock was on trial, all the important representatives of the universe showed up. Phoenix was not there.
When Thanos had the HOTU, Phoenix was not there.
When Abraxas showed up, Phoenix was not there.

PF is overrated. It's not second to TOAA; LT is. It's confirmed throughout different books, including X-titles.

IG series had Eternity asking LT to stop Thanos.
Infinity Watch #1 had LT preside over the trial of Warlock & the IG. LT was acknowledged as second only to TOAA.
Infinity War had LT reversed his own verdict.
Thanos with the HOTU acknowledged LT as top dog - not counting himself w/ HOTU of course.
In an X-title, Dweller In the Darkness acknowledged LT's might.

"Um, no. No Phoenix wasn't involed in The End because the Phoenix isn't that powerful. Your just making excuses as to why Phoenix didn't show up."

Isnt that powerful? So how do you explain Jean saving the multiverse from an artifact more powerful than the IG?

How do you explain Jean holding Eternity in her hand and healing the 616 universe and restructuring its timeline?

How do you explain the fact that the force of creation behind phoenix the one which jean as white crown phoenix has a special relationship with, is behind the creation of the multiverse and behind the creation of the abstracts, eternity, infinity, galactus etc? AS STATED IN THE COMICS IM AFRAID.

Those previously mentioned abstracts were deemed powerful enough and important enough for Thanos to face down and put in their place in his quest for dominance yet the being who created them and and all of existence (AS PER CURRENT CONTINUITY.) wasnt given a look in. Doesnt make sense does it?

Beyonder read through the entire thread before posting. Because i am not going to repeat myself. You have brought nothing new to the table. All points you've tried to make have been countered and explained before.

All i need to say to yo is RETCON PERIOD 86-2003 where do a lot of your references fall into? Just curious is all.

Also since Grant Morrisons run was the first to so completely oppose the phoenix retcon of 86. Writers often ignore the work of others unless they are sure its current and consistent with continuity. Why was the writer of The End going to suddenly take on board GM's work after 17 years of retcon. Exactly.

The End had been and gone when EndSong appeared and guess what? It also supported GM's decision to retcon back to Chris C's original idea of Phoenix.

It seems this has had a knock on effect because look whats happened during the EndSong run. FF has acknowledged that Phoenix is responsible for the creation of the multiverse and the abstracts.

Take a leaf out of KG's book and do some good research and then come back to me with a well structured, original argument.