The Phoenix vs. Fully-Powered Spectre

The Presence has decreed that the Phoenix MUST DIE (Permanently that is). Can the Spectre beat the Phoenix?

This is just going to end up as a Presence Vs TOAA thread which is pointless. Also this was done already a few days ago. Its probably somewhere on the first 3 or so pages.

Actually Spectre will easily eat the Phoenix alive you see even though they both have powerful sources of power Spectre's is easily infinitely more powerful

Originally posted by Superherovandal
Actually Spectre will easily eat the Phoenix alive you see even though they both have powerful sources of power Spectre's is easily infinitely more powerful

Well considering Chris C and GM have all but said directly that the primal force of creation that makes jean a phoenix is Gods essence i dont believe that is the case. Jeans name phoenix of the white crown means that she is a sephiroth. A vessel created by God for him to pour his essence into so that his work can be carried out in the world of man. This is basically a TOAA Vs Presence thread. To settle this why not just go by their feats shown in the comics? Theres no other way really

Have you yet proved where it says that PF is incarnation of TOAA. Show me the exact quotes. Don't just assume. We need actual proof. Since Presence and TOAA are equal that would mean that Presence would be more powerful than PF. So if he wanted it Phoenix would be gone forever.

Please explain how can both of these statements be true:

Since Presence and TOAA are equal

and

even though they both have powerful sources of power Spectre's is easily infinitely more powerful

well since they are both the creators of their respective universes they are the most powerful in them and would be considered equal. and Spectre gets his power from Presence who is more powerful than the PF in turn if Presence wanted him to destroy the Phoenix or even the PF he would give Spectre that much power.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
well since they are both the creators of their respective universes they are the most powerful in them and would be considered equal. and Spectre gets his power from Presence who is more powerful than the PF in turn if Presence wanted him to destroy the Phoenix or even the PF he would give Spectre that much power.

So TOAA is just going to allow the primal force of creation to be destroyed? That would end all life in existence. The primal force of creation made the multiverse and all the abstracts. It is one with them also. It cannot die. TOAA would never allow it. Stop thinking of the phoenix as some separate firebird entity. The avatars are the phoenix. The name just representative of their death and subsequent rebirth into a higher being. The union between the primal force of creation and those with genetic phoenix potential creates a phoenix. That firebird is just a manifestation of the avatars powers.

Yeah But TOAA isn't involved with this.

But in this thread TOAA isn't involved and Presence gave him the power to destroy The Phoenix. And if Presence wants Phoenix gone and sends Spectre it will be done.

I don't think the Phoenix Force can be killed.

I'm sure if Presence gave Spectre the power to do it he could.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
I'm sure if Presence gave Spectre the power to do it he could.

This is ultimately the Presence vs. The Phoenix. Of course the Phoenix isn't going to win.

But, The Phoenix is beyond Death. How is it possible for it to die?

It can't "die" in the normal sense... But being erased from existance counts as the same thing, I think.

he could make it never exist. that could make it "die".

Originally posted by Superherovandal
he could make it never exist. that could make it "die".

Understood. This is pretty obvious, then. Spectre with all of the Presence's power is the Presence.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
But in this thread TOAA isn't involved and Presence gave him the power to destroy The Phoenix. And if Presence wants Phoenix gone and sends Spectre it will be done.

It doesnt work like that im afraid. The primal force of creation is an aspect of God. No explanation necessary. It is the force that is behind the making of everything. All life in existence, everything. TOAA is very much involved with this as it stands

Because of the stupid 86 retcon, people have it embedded in their minds that phoenix is just another cosmic entity. That phoenix was just a sentent energy field derived from the psychic energy of all things. The original Phoenix and the one that is in current continuity isnt phoenix at all if that makes sense. Thats the avatars. This is the primal force of creation which isnt an entity it just pours its essense into those with phoenix potential and they become avatars. The avatars are phoenix and the firebird is just a manifestation of their powers. So this is spectre Vs the primal force of creation which isnt an entity it is just a force. A part of TOAA. Jeans name in the comics is Phoenix of the white crown. Which means that she is a vessel for the essence of God. Which is the primal force of creation.

so it would be a stalemate between Spectre and PF?

if Presence gave him the power he can do whatever Presence enables him to do.

If the Phoenix is removed permanently, that would end all life in existance, wouldn't it? Why would Spectre be allowed to do that?