The Phoenix vs. Fully-Powered Spectre

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Sounds convincing, but is it ever made clear? Feron (the first avatar) actually gave the force it's Phoenix shape.

That was the retcon phoenix. 86 to 2003 was the retcon phoenix where it was made to be just another cosmic entity. That phoenix was an energy field made sentient by Feron. Thats the phoenix people have embedded in their heads. The original phoenix and the one that is in current continuity isnt phoenix itself. The avatars are phoenix. It is the primal force of creation which joins with those of phoenix potential, making them avatars. Try and get the firebird entity out of your head. Thats just a manifestation from the avatars.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
In Uncanny Xmen 137 it says that Jean became phoenix when she united with the primal force of creation. The force that is the be all and end all of everything. It created everything and everything is one with it. Jean is called Phoenix of the white crown. Her name means that she is the vessel for Gods essence so that his/its work can be done in our plane of existence. What more proof do you want?

Doesn't say that it is actually "part" of TOAA. The name means nothing, Batman isn't actually part bat. Lucifer and Michael also created "everything" in DC. They're not directly linked to the Presence. You assume too much about Phoenix...

Marvel is against direct religion in their comics, why would they have an actual choir of angels? The whole thing is probably based off of the Seraphim, but that doesn't mean that the Phoenix avatars "are" Seraphim. It also never says that Jean is necessarily a Sephiroth, you just assume that because she is the most powerful of the avatars, which you assume are Seraphim.

The whole thing could be an analogy, not an equivalence. It's just impossible to tell.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
I'm not saying its right but what im saying is isn't it possible that it is true? It would make a whole bunch of sense.

You're making a good point, but I imagine a force of all creation would be a part of The One Above All. The Phoenix seems to be a channel by which the power is used.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
I'm not saying its right but what im saying is isn't it possible that it is true? It would make a whole bunch of sense.

Originally posted on http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/earthkorvacconquers.htm
On page 7 of What If#32, Korvac and Carina block off every single interdimensional aperture into Earth's dimension, preventing the denizens of a thousand Godly and ungodly realms entrance.

I'm told by a former intern at Marvel that the bottom right image was meant to represent Yahweh (the Judeo-Christian God), though he looks more like Jesus Christ.
Amongst those figures is the Chinese sky-father seen, but not named in Thor I#300.
The character pictured in the Council of Godheads in Thor#300 is not identified. He does look significantly different from Yu Haung as pictured and identified in Thor#301 (and What If II#38). However, the flashback in Thor#300 takes place over 1000 years ago. In addition, it may well be that some of the characters have different forms, such as a battle form and a form for ruling and/or diplomacy (or perhaps different forms for inside and outside their own realms). The characters in Thor#300 are identified as "Sky-Fathers All", which would make Yu Huang the appropriate character. Alternatively, he could have sent another representative in his stead.

*shrugs* Dunno if its true or not. . .

Originally posted by Creshosk
There's a possibility that. . . er hang on let me find that link

*shrugs* Dunno if its true or not. . .

?

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
?

I'm told by a former intern at Marvel that the bottom right image was meant to represent Yahweh (the Judeo-Christian God), though he looks more like Jesus Christ.

Are you saying that theology is used in Marvel's comics? 🤨 I'm not grabbing ya.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
You're making a good point, but I imagine a force of all creation would be a part of The One Above All. The Phoenix seems to be a channel by which the power is used.

It's all still speculation though. Michael and Lucifer also created everything. (I know, but its the only other example of creating everything...)

Originally posted by Dizzle
It's all still speculation though. Michael and Lucifer also created everything. (I know, but its the only other example of creating everything...)

It is confirmed, we can do nothing more than speculate. I think that the force of all creation would be a connected to TOAA.

"It also never says that Jean is necessarily a Sephiroth, you just assume that because she is the most powerful of the avatars, which you assume are Seraphim."

Her name marks her out as a sephiroth. Also theres too many parallels between the phoenix situation and that of the seraphim. Marvel tends not to explicitly use religious themes in their comics. Maybe thats why its just suggested with the phoenix and heavily at that. Theres just too many similarities and too much symbology that links Phoenix to TOAA.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Are you saying that theology is used in Marvel's comics? 🤨 I'm not grabbing ya.

Yahweh (the Judeo-Christian God),

Originally posted by Creshosk
I'm guessing that that is saying that

is on a level found on page seven, right with the other. . .uh. . . Whatever is on page 7.

What are you talking about? You think that Yaweh is a skyfather?

"Doesn't say that it is actually "part" of TOAA. The name means nothing, Batman isn't actually part bat. Lucifer and Michael also created "everything" in DC. They're not directly linked to the Presence. You assume too much about Phoenix..."

Nope it says that she is one with the primal force of creation. Her name means that she is a vessel for Gods essence. Whom god created so that his work could be carried out in the world of man

Her and the phoenixes are regulated outside of existece in the white hot room by an unseen voice which sends them into the multiverse to carry out their healing and disinfection duties.

The seraphim traditionally assemble in Gods throne room and are sent from heven to enter the world of man to cleanse the world with fire and burn away mans wrongdoings.

In New Xmen Jean says as Phoenix she must perform her 'destined disinfection duties' in the world of man. She says she she must 'burn away what doesnt work'

The Phoenix energy signature is that of a fiery raptor.

The seraphim are fire emblazoned humans with wings.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
What are you talking about? You think that Yaweh is a skyfather?

Amongst those figures is the Chinese sky-father seen, but not named in Thor I#300.
The character pictured in the Council of Godheads in Thor#300 is not identified. He does look significantly different from Yu Haung as pictured and identified in Thor#301 (and What If II#38). However, the flashback in Thor#300 takes place over 1000 years ago. In addition, it may well be that some of the characters have different forms, such as a battle form and a form for ruling and/or diplomacy (or perhaps different forms for inside and outside their own realms). The characters in Thor#300 are identified as "Sky-Fathers All", which would make Yu Huang the appropriate character. Alternatively, he could have sent another representative in his stead.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
"It also never says that Jean is necessarily a Sephiroth, you just assume that because she is the most powerful of the avatars, which you assume are Seraphim."

Her name marks her out as a sephiroth. Also theres too many parallels between the phoenix situation and that of the seraphim. Marvel tends not to explicitly use religious themes in their comics. Maybe thats why its just suggested with the phoenix and heavily at that. Theres just too many similarities and too much symbology that links Phoenix to TOAA.

Her name marks her eh... Is Batman a Bat? Is Wolverine actually a Wolverine? NO. Because her name implies that she may have a role similar to the theological Sephiroth does not mean Jean IS a Sephiroth. Because the PF is paralleled to God does not mean that it is God. The symbology links nothing, because TOAA is not portrayed as Christianity's God.

Originally posted by Dizzle
Her name marks her eh... Is Batman a Bat? Is Wolverine actually a Wolverine? NO. Because her name implies that she may have a role similar to the theological Sephiroth does not mean Jean IS a Sephiroth. Because the PF is paralleled to God does not mean that it is God. The symbology links nothing, because TOAA is not portrayed as Christianity's God.

Marvel doesnt have a Christian God youre correct. It doesnt have angels and so on from what i have seen. However what im saying is that Marvel has equivalents. TOAA is Marvels equivalent of God and it is assumed that his/its power is absolute. Jean is the equivalent of a sephiroth in Marvel comics.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Marvel doesnt have a Christian God youre correct. It doesnt have angels and so on from what i have seen. However what im saying is that Marvel has equivalents. TOAA is Marvels equivalent of God and it is assumed that his/its power is absolute. Jean is the equivalent of a sephiroth in Marvel comics.

Originally posted by Dizzle
Her name marks her eh... Is Batman a Bat? Is Wolverine actually a Wolverine? NO. Because her name implies that she may have a role similar to the theological Sephiroth does not mean Jean IS a Sephiroth. Because the PF is paralleled to God does not mean that it is God. The symbology links nothing, because TOAA is not portrayed as Christianity's God.

*shrugs*

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Phoenix energy signature is that of a fiery raptor.

The seraphim are fire emblazoned humans with wings.

I think you mean a fiery bird-like envisage. Raptors are lizards.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
I think you mean a fiery bird-like envisage. Raptors are lizards.

Originally posted by Dizzle
Her name marks her eh... Is Batman a Bat? Is Wolverine actually a Wolverine? NO. Because her name implies that she may have a role similar to the theological Sephiroth does not mean Jean IS a Sephiroth. Because the PF is paralleled to God does not mean that it is God. The symbology links nothing, because TOAA is not portrayed as Christianity's God.

He is portrayed as being the supreme being, however. The Phoenix may not be an angel, but it is the force of creation.