The Phoenix vs. Fully-Powered Spectre

Then life wouldn't exist. The Phoenix is the totality of ALL life. Remember when Galactus tried to remove it from Rachel? Stars died. And that's just Rachel.

And how is the Presence involved, but not TOAA? Isn't that a little one-sided? Especially since you're talking about two different universes. TOAA is going to say, "OK. I'm okay with destroying all of my creation." That's a little weird.

well this is a forum battle. in the thread it states the Presence is involved but nowhere does it say anything about TOAA. The consequences to reality have no affect on this battle.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
Then life wouldn't exist. The Phoenix is the totality of ALL life. Remember when Galactus tried to remove it from Rachel? Stars died. And that's just Rachel.

And how is the Presence involved, but not TOAA? Isn't that a little one-sided? Especially since you're talking about two different universes. TOAA is going to say, "OK. I'm okay with destroying all of my creation." That's a little weird.

I agree. The Phoenix is everything. All life would cease to be if it is destroyed. Would The One Above All allow it?

These top level fight keep making me want to find that one "what if" comic where korvac makes the avengers his pawns. . . just something from a website I read that's bugging me, and would make things entirly different if it's true. . .

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
Then life wouldn't exist. The Phoenix is the totality of ALL life IN THE MARVEL UNIVERSE. Remember when Galactus tried to remove it from Rachel? Stars died. And that's just Rachel.

And how is the Presence involved, but not TOAA? Isn't that a little one-sided? Especially since you're talking about two different universes. TOAA is going to say, "OK. I'm okay with destroying all of my creation." That's a little weird.

just edited to prove my point so I apoligize with the greatest esteem. 😉

Originally posted by Superherovandal
well this is a forum battle. in the thread it states the Presence is involved but nowhere does it say anything about TOAA. The consequences to reality have no affect on this battle.

So basically, this is Phoenix vs. The Presence. Spectre is irrelevant. It's extremely lopsided.

Originally posted by Draco69
The Presence has decreed that the Phoenix MUST DIE (Permanently that is). Can the Spectre beat the Phoenix?

This is the premise. There is nothing stated about the Presence increasing Spectre's power. That's a supposition.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
just edited to prove my point so I apoligize with the greatest esteem. 😉

Not all life in the Marvel Universe. All life in Marvel, period.

There is no Phoenix Force as such. Phoenix is the name of the avatars. Its what they become when they join with the primal force of creation. The primal force of creation is a part of TOAA. You'd think that the supreme being of existence would have something to do with the creation of existence. Also the meaning of jeans name tells you that the primal force of creation is Gods essense.

You see when Presence wants Spectre to do something he is the one that gives Spectre the power. So he would be giving energy to Spectre.

but where does it actually clearly state it.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
This is the premise. There is nothing stated about the Presence increasing Spectre's power. That's a supposition.

But as I understand when the Presence decrees that the Spectre do something, it/he/she gives him the power to perform the job. When the Spectre goes rogue however it's extremely weak. Dr. Fate kicked his ass.

yeah and thats coming from the guy who created the thread. So BOO-YAH!!!!!

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
I agree. The Phoenix is everything. All life would cease to be if it is destroyed. Would The One Above All allow it?

It wouldn't, but since it's impossible to link PF directly to TOAA, a divine intervention would be using outside help.

By link, I mean it doesn't draw its power directly from TOAA like Spectre does with the Presence. It is a separate force, possibly created by TOAA for the same reason Michael and Lucifer were by the Presence- to create everything else.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
but where does it actually clearly state it.

In Uncanny Xmen 137 it says that Jean became phoenix when she united with the primal force of creation. The force that is the be all and end all of everything. It created everything and everything is one with it. Jean is called Phoenix of the white crown. Her name means that she is the vessel for Gods essence so that his/its work can be done in our plane of existence. What more proof do you want?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
There is no Phoenix Force as such. Phoenix is the name of the avatars. Its what they become when they join with the primal force of creation. The primal force of creation is a part of TOAA. You'd think that the supreme being of existence would have something to do with the creation of existence. Also the meaning of jeans name tells you that the primal force of creation is Gods essense.

Sounds convincing, but is it ever made clear? Feron (the first avatar) actually gave the force it's Phoenix shape.

OK fine but like Dizzle said perhaps PF isn't part of TOAA but a force created by TOAA to create everything else. So direct linkage to the Creator would be more powerful.

Seraphims which jeans name tells you she is are traditionally depicted as fire emblazoned humans with wings. They carry within them the essence of God. They are sent down from heaven to heal mans world and to correct our wrongdoins.

The phoenixes as shown in New Xmen are directed and regulated by an unseen Voice which sends them down from thw white hot room into our plane of existence so that they can carry out theit healing duties.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
OK fine but like Dizzle said perhaps PF isn't part of TOAA but a force created by TOAA to create everything else. So direct linkage to the Creator would be more powerful.

How do we know that it isn't connected to God? Micheal and Lucifer are different. They are individuals. The Phoenix is a force.

I'm not saying its right but what im saying is isn't it possible that it is true? It would make a whole bunch of sense.