Iceman (full potential) vs. Superman

Started by manjaro90 pages

my main thing is even if bobby subterfuges his fluids and suck him dry, his cells would act like a super vacuum to solar rays, not enuff to restore him to full power but certainly enuff for him to NOT die. going back to when i said Steel and Atom went inside him microscopically. in that same issue one of them(forgot which) expressivley made a comment how different is his physiology. the atom even said that he discovered 4 chambers in his heart. so i dont know how easy it might be to give him heart attack. the other thing is while they were in there they were fine until they started bouncing around, cuz supes was convulsing and involuntarily releasing his heat vision. and they showed that the energy came from ALL the cells in his body as opposed to just his "eyes". and they were commenting on how hot it was in there

it kind of reminded of that scene in DBZ when goku and vegeta was fighting buu from the inside and they were rushing out on that plume of steam. thats how they portryed the energy rushing out plus, once supes body saw that they were things causing an adverse reaction to him, thousands of superman shaped antibodies attacked them.

so while i think that giving him coronaries and embolisms are a good idea the fact of the matter is his immuno responses are significantly more reactive than ours ,and thats ditto for his healing rate. so the moment even ONE molecule in his body is damaged his system is gonna react accordingly and take care of it. cuz just we as regular humans when we get injured our body reacts to protect or heal itself INSTANTANEOUSLY, just on a microscopic scale.

so no we cant heal from a gunshot wound immediatley, but when we get a small cut within secs the blood clots to stop the bleeding right? and within a couple a days its repaired. so its a safe bet that with superman this natural ability is increased a thousand fold. so all bobby would be able to do is go in there and look around and shit.

this is a slight stretch and i only bring him up cuz he's a superman clone but look at what happened when blink teleported half a ton of sand inside King Hyperion. his body broke it down immediatly. now we can all go outside and swallow some sand but our bodies arent gonna recognize it as something bad. our digestive enzymes are gonna get right to work to see if there are any nutrients in it. so in all likelyhood if bobby bypassed his aura(which is feasible)and enters his system as vapor or liquid oxygen or whatever he would probably just get metabolzed and converted into energy. in essence he could very well be sealing his own fate. whatever you guys think just remeber that everything our bodies can do supes own can do it a thousand times better so this whole he would get destroyed b4 he could react thing is very unfeasible.

Originally posted by snoopdogg
Has Iceman ever done anything like this before?

this is full potential Iceman, and yes at full potential Iceman has existed as pure ice, water or vapor, disembodied. Check out X-men Forever #6.

Originally posted by FieryBalrog
this is full potential Iceman, and yes at full potential Iceman has existed as pure ice, water or vapor, disembodied. Check out X-men Forever #6.

Can't Supes simply blow him away or apart in this form then?

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Can't Supes simply blow him away or apart in this form then?

How would he know where Iceman is? Iceman would be dispersed water droplets, like those in the atmosphere.

Originally posted by manjaro
the atom even said that he discovered 4 chambers in his heart. so i dont know how easy it might be to give him heart attack.

A human heart has four chambers as well.

ermm

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
How would he know where Iceman is? Iceman would be dispersed water droplets, like those in the atmosphere.

Microscopic vision, em spectrum, super hearing. It shouldnt be too hard to see a strange movement of air, vapor, or humidity coming towards you with his powers.

Superbreath wouldnt even have to be too specific, at Supes levels he could easily blow everything near him far, far away.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
How would he know where Iceman is? Iceman would be dispersed water droplets, like those in the atmosphere.

Very, Very true.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
A human heart has four chambers as well.

ermm

Indeed it does, two atria and two ventricles. However, I see the example manjaro used can be interpreted one of two ways. I actually don't have this comic 🙁. So its all guesswork. The comment means supes system is similair to ours just "souped" up (sorry) or it means he has 4 chambers per side and is very Alien remeber the heart is actually two pumps divided by the septum. So he may have some sort of dual reduntcy double circulatory system (just a guess) like Doctor Who 😄. Either way his system is super and that spells the end for Bobby due to the reaction speeds of all his bodies processes and the aura 😄.

Superman antibodies thats quite silly 😆 bad writing 😄

Keep the faith 🤘

stay in School kids😄

Mornin' ya'll.

Damn, a lot to cover over one night.

[Gotta give you props Manjaro. You've been holdin it down in this thread]

Ok, first this:

[Avalon]

Very Very interesting theories on here, I won't pretend that I remember everything I studied on these topics, but lets consider this...

If Bobby goes in as water and tries to do something, Isn't it also possible that his fluids could be hijacked by Supes own field leaving bobby with no control over anything? Kind of like Nightcrawler materializing inside a wall. Supes field is psionic in nature as well.

There are fluids that move about freely throughout Supes body. Iceman simply has to transfer his consciousness along them. Like Living Lightning traveling along electrical cables or Swamp Thing transferring his essence through folliage. He wouldn't become trapped, Supes body is saturated in moisture down to the cellular level.

[Manjaro]

(Good post)

my main thing is even if bobby subterfuges his fluids and suck him dry, his cells would act like a super vacuum to solar rays, not enuff to restore him to full power but certainly enuff for him to NOT die. going back to when i said Steel and Atom went inside him microscopically. in that same issue one of them(forgot which) expressivley made a comment how different is his physiology. the atom even said that he discovered 4 chambers in his heart. so i dont know how easy it might be to give him heart attack. the other thing is while they were in there they were fine until they started bouncing around, cuz supes was convulsing and involuntarily releasing his heat vision. and they showed that the energy came from ALL the cells in his body as opposed to just his "eyes". and they were commenting on how hot it was in there

it kind of reminded of that scene in DBZ when goku and vegeta was fighting buu from the inside and they were rushing out on that plume of steam. thats how they portryed the energy rushing out plus, once supes body saw that they were things causing an adverse reaction to him, thousands of superman shaped antibodies attacked them.

so while i think that giving him coronaries and embolisms are a good idea the fact of the matter is his immuno responses are significantly more reactive than ours ,and thats ditto for his healing rate. so the moment even ONE molecule in his body is damaged his system is gonna react accordingly and take care of it. cuz just we as regular humans when we get injured our body reacts to protect or heal itself INSTANTANEOUSLY, just on a microscopic scale.

so no we cant heal from a gunshot wound immediatley, but when we get a small cut within secs the blood clots to stop the bleeding right? and within a couple a days its repaired. so its a safe bet that with superman this natural ability is increased a thousand fold. so all bobby would be able to do is go in there and look around and shit.

this is a slight stretch and i only bring him up cuz he's a superman clone but look at what happened when blink teleported half a ton of sand inside King Hyperion. his body broke it down immediatly. now we can all go outside and swallow some sand but our bodies arent gonna recognize it as something bad. our digestive enzymes are gonna get right to work to see if there are any nutrients in it. so in all likelyhood if bobby bypassed his aura(which is feasible)and enters his system as vapor or liquid oxygen or whatever he would probably just get metabolzed and converted into energy. in essence he could very well be sealing his own fate. whatever you guys think just remeber that everything our bodies can do supes own can do it a thousand times better so this whole he would get destroyed b4 he could react thing is very unfeasible.

As I've said before, Supes body consist of fluids, even with his heightened body temperature. Unlike in the scenario of Steel and the Atom or Vegeta and Goku inside Super Buu, Iceman would not bring his own alien physical presence within Superman's body, he would transfer his conciousness into the fluids that already make up Supes physiological makeup. There would be nothing for Supes natural immunity defenses to pick up because no alien tissue has been introduced.

Now, if Steel and Atom caused Supes to involuntary convulse by "bouncing around", and then his antibodies were released to counteract the "foreign threat", how is his body going to detect Iceman when he is part of the normal chemistry of Supes body and causes all of the fluid in his circulatory system, which leads to every part and cell in his body, to simultaneously either become solid (All of the fluid in his heart and brain, as well as any where else, simultaneously, would become solid ice), or remove the moisture alltogether by drawing it all unto himself and leaving Superman's body, causing complete dehydration down to the cellular level, and destroying Supes cellular cohesion by destroying Superman's cellular peptides? In doing this, Iceman would also destroy Superman's cells ability to facilitate the biochemical process of metabolizing sunlight into metaprotien, and his biomatrix would cease to exists (since this is a byproduct of his body metabolizing the metaprotein his cells create). The cells would die from total dehydration, and be unable to perform any function at all. Supes would be reduced to dust (well, at least the base elements his body consists of without any moisture).

(And to counter it before it comes up; Superman sitting in the sun and becoming S. Prime doesn't discount Supes need for moisture/hydration. His biomatrix can maintain the fluids already within him from evaporating obviously. His organic form and body chemisty still needs hydration to function, his body operates on a biochemical process. Forcibly removing all moisture from his being would end this process).

[Avalon]

Can't Supes simply blow him away or apart in this form then?

Microscopic vision, em spectrum, super hearing. It shouldnt be too hard to see a strange movement of air, vapor, or humidity coming towards you with his powers.

Superbreath wouldnt even have to be too specific, at Supes levels he could easily blow everything near him far, far away.

He could try, but it wouldn't help. He'd have to remove all moisture in the vacinity, including within himself, to keep Bobby at bay. When Superman exhales, there is moisture along the current of his breath. Bobby can transfer his consciousness upstream along any form of moisture, regardless of velocity. For example, if a fire hose were blasting out a powerful high velocity stream of water, the force of the water would not impede the progress of Iceman's consciousness along it. It's not like a fish swimming upstream. It's more like electricty being conducted. Moisture just happens to be what conduct Bobby's consciousness.

I think I covered the heart/cardio/circulatory thing before. Supes heart trying to pump a solid mass of blood would cause extreme cardiac arrest, the severe convulsions caused by it would break Supes body considering how strong he is. Having a severe stroke and all fluid in your lungs solidify simultaneously with such an extreme cardiac arrest would devestate Kal El. Even if he survived, his bodily systems would be so taxed he'd be in no position to counter act having all moisture in his body forcibly removed from every facet of his being.

This has been a good debate but man,Iceman backers are grasping at straws. Superman is invulnerable. I doubt Iceman could screw with his cells--which are also invulnerable.

Even if he started to, why wouldn't his body notice it's being harmed and just shut him out? He'd lose a little moisture and relize that Iceman isn't finished. He'd suck in the air around him, then blow it out in space. If he didn't get Bobby, he'd just wait for him to rear his head and stomp him again.

Again, Iceman has only used his moisture inversion on opponents with much,much less durability than Superman. I doubt it would work.

Superman easily beats Iceman.

Originally posted by DrDoom
This has been a good debate but man,Iceman backers are grasping at straws. Superman is invulnerable. I doubt Iceman could screw with his cells--which are also invulnerable.

Even if he started to, why wouldn't his body notice it's being harmed and just shut him out? He'd lose a little moisture and relize that Iceman isn't finished. He'd suck in the air around him, then blow it out in space. If he didn't get Bobby, he'd just wait for him to rear his head and stomp him again.

Again, Iceman has only used his moisture inversion on opponents with much,much less durability than Superman. I doubt it would work.

Superman is not "invulnerable". You simply have to have a way around, or in some cases through, his defenses. Most conventional means simply won't suffice is the fact of the matter.

Superman's body couldn't shut Iceman out once he inhabits his bodily fluids, unless he were to expel all moisture from his entire body, which would kill him.

As for the moisture inversion trick working on Supes, it's not a matter of his invulnerabilty, it's a matter of constitution. Moisture Inversion works on the principle of altering the polarity of the atoms in a person's molecules and reverting it to a gaseous and or liquid form. As seemingly impregnable as Supes appears, his powers are based on a biochemical reaction; he's completely organic and consist of molecules. There is no reason Iceman should not be able to use this ability on Supes, he's not inorganic, he simply has a body function which metabolizes light and EM emissions which is converted into a protein compound, and the byproduct of this compound being metabolized is that he emits a skintight forcefield.

Bobby can get around this and shut it off from the inside by halting the process at a cellular level.

I think you are kinda grasping at straws illadelph. Cells and entire bodies are constantly have huge biochemical changes inside them these are controlled by systems in place in normal humans. Supes systems are super and would react in such an aggressive way to Bobby's attempted invasion I think not only would they prevent it but it could backfire totally, reducing Bobby to the water component of urine🙁

Ok first I'd like to congragulate Manjaro, Cosmic Cube, FieryBalrog, Avoaonnofthewind, and especially Whirly and Illadelph for having a great debate without any insults or personal attacks or anything.....idiots....J/k....seriously it nice to have a debate without anyone getting insulted or people getting mad.....

now to my actual post:
ok for the person who keeps saying that iceman will get knocked out with one punch, iceman cant be physically destroyed....now of course Supes could heat blast his ass, but that would only result in iceman becoming water vapor.....now IF he knew about this he might be able to heat all the molecules but as Illadelph said he can just transfer his concouisness somewere else........now as to Iceman going into Supes body, he can go into it pretty easily through natural means. Also since Superman does breath (he might have huge lungs, but he holds his breath in space so he does have to breath....) and why need to breath if he doesnt need some kind of "nourishment" from the air.....now that would be in addition to the ATP he gets from the sun but it probably goes to his blood to provide "nourishment"....now if iceman can go through the biomatrix since Superman does, as illadelph stated, metabolize food and water and air.....now he would be in control of his mouisture (goin through the field) and his blood....since he does have blood....and its a "type" of liquid.....now couldnt he just rip the mouisture and the blood from his blood basically making him dead...

sidenote strategy: now ive stated before that he controls things at a molecular level to "freeze" things (stops the molecules, its more than just mouisture.) now what is this forcefield made of?? becuase if its made of molecules then it CAN be frozen....thats not "freezing" around the forcefield but effectivly stopping his field, freezing him.

also we have been debating alot on how iceman might beat Iceman....but what is supes gonna do to iceman? he cant just pummel him to death and he cant heat his ass, he'll just move his concouisness to more water vapor......

Originally posted by whirlysplat
I think you are kinda grasping at straws illadelph. Cells and entire bodies are constantly have huge biochemical changes inside them these are controlled by systems in place in normal humans. Supes systems are super and would react in such an aggressive way to Bobby's attempted invasion I think not only would they prevent it but it could backfire totally, reducing Bobby to the water component of urine🙁

Thanks for your concern my friend, but I have full grasp of what I'm saying.

Once Bobby inhabits Supes fluids, they are under his control. They, in essence, become Iceman's body. He'd have complete control over them, and be able to do whatever he wished with them, from freezing them completely solid to drawing them completely out of Superman's body and causing Superman complete dehydration down to the cellular level, reducing Superman to a pile of his base elements.

Superman's powers are based on a biochemical process by which his cells metabolizes energy (like a plant metabolizing sunlight), creates a super protein compound from the metabolized energy, then emits a bio aura as a byproduct of this protein compound being broken down. Iceman can halt this process by causing complete dehydration in Superman's cells, destroying the cellular peptides in Superman's body which in turn circumvents his cellular cohesion and the disallows the biochemical processes that takes place within these cells and facilitates generating Superman's biomatrix.

I'm not grasping, it's simply a method of attack not afforded to a lot of comic book characters.

Like Magneto and his "manipulation of the iron content of one's blood" attacks.

Iceman has "manipulation of the moisture content of one's being" attacks.

And yo, on the real, props to everyone in this thread for keeping it civil and not resorting to insults, which seems to happen far to often around here. It's good to just have a good intelligent debate with mutual respect.

Hi everyone😄 thanks for the nice comments Blair and thanks for the fine debate everyone, especially you illadelph.

Now lets slightly up the anti (I can't use smilies, I tried posting a similair rebuttle earlier and it said I had used to many and I lost the whole thing). Please Forgive me all; this is going to be a longish post, it will all come off the top of my head and if you need to rebut it I suspect you will have to go searching textbooks.)

Why is Water important? Life on earth depends upon its ability to act as a solvent for a huge number of polar molecules that serve as fuels, building blocks, catalysts and information carriers. High concentrations of of these particles coeist in water (note one, high concs of these particles) which are moving very fast in humans, turnover number of enzymes can run into a hundred thousand in a minute! In supes this would be super speed, basic physics tells us that speed creates frictiona and friction created heat. In supers case Super heat, the water inside supes would unfreeze as quick as Bobby tried to freeze it.

Now the excellence of water poses a problem 😄 it weakens the interactions between some polar molecules. Biological systems have solved this by creating water-free (micro-environments) where polar interactions have extra strength 😄.

Now the idea water can go here it wants in the body is bad science even with Bobby "willing" things to happen cell membranes have hydrophobic properties which stop this, (hydrophobic means lit. water hating) This creates cavities in water where molecules can sit and these are "forced" to form things like hydrogen bonds. Its water that is pushed around in the chemistry of the body, not water that does the pushing! Lets assume Supes body has Super redundantcies etc, to ensure this is more efficient at the atomic level (smiley) Water has an interesting property it bonds strongly to itself, so when one part of Bobby gets pushed a lot gets pushed, this is why he would be the one in trouble entering Supes not the other way around.

OK, now you talked about Photosynthesis (smiley) Whats waters role in this? Well its a suprising one, it gets broken down. Why? Well to produce energy. So what Whirly is saying is water is split so energy can be produced. But Whirly that would mean more water, more energy wouldn't it? Yup you betcha, as Supes can Solar charge himself to create more energy biochemically! So if its like Photosynthesis how would this splitting work Whirly? Well it gets pretty complicated but you guys are intelligent so I'll explain it. Water is shredded by enzymes as I tried to explain in earlier posts without the science bit (smiley) This is done at a subatomic level in Photosystem 2. The enzyme is even termed in every textbook I have ever read the water splitting enzyme (if you want to reference it). This is done to extract electrons from water so H+ (Hydrogen cations, little chem joke cations are pussytive) ions are liberated. The electrons go into the proton gradient an integral part of the photosystems and the cytochromes ability to produce energy (smiley). So you mean Whirly, water will make supes stronger? Yup proably. But you don't think water will do anything do you? No, because I think the aura is not produced this way and instead Bobby just will not interact at all!

Hope you all got that (can't use a smiley)

Keep th faith 😇

Keep Whirly 🤘

Ps. this was off my head, no text books were used but please feel free to research it 😄 "Stryer" the text I used as an undergraduate simply entitled "Biochemistry" would be a good place to start, its what taught me!

Please forgive any spelling I am truly Dyslexic and have to work hard to spell, sorry

Interesting Whirly.

But immaterial.

Explain what would happen to an organism when it is completely devoid of moisture.

I'm sure most already know.

Superman can not live devoid of all moisture within his being.

By Iceman inhabiting Superman's bodily fluids, he controls the water;

the water becomes his body.

Now, as far as water going anywhere in the body, you and I both know the body is permeated with moisture. The texture and health of your epidermis (skin cells) is dependent on hydration, as well as the rest of your body. Dead cells are devoid of moisture. Cells DIE when devoid of any form of hydration. In an organism, cellular cohesion, as well as functions (like regeneration) are facilitated in major part by hydration levels. Supes cells would be unable to perform their functions if they were completely devoid of moisture.

Now as far as Iceman being in trouble by being caught in the currents of Supes metabolism, that is untrue. Bobby doesn't have to take form once inside Superman, he just has to inhabit the fluids. His consciousness will not be coursing through Supes being. So long as there is moisture within Superman's body, Bobby will be there.

Now, as far as freezing Supes fluids, Iceman doesn't freeze things by simply dropping the temperature. He psionically controls the motion within molecules, slowing them or altogether stopping them, in essence, removing kinetic energy (motion) within them. He can do this to the molecules within Supes's bloodstream, cellular structure, and bodily fluids.

Superman's internal bodily temperature is not of an extreme to which organic material can not exist within him. The Atom and Steel both entered his body, as well as Protex. Bobby has counteracted temperature extremes created by the Human Torch and stalemated him.

This is good.

my comps not working whirly so it wont let me pm, but it will let me post (go figure).....but heres what i wrote

well I understood it...but it stumped me as to what to say next. Im smart for my age but im not gonna say that im quite comfortable handling all that scientific terminology....so good post but man did you stump me.

but now that I read illadelphs stuff I can now honestly say....im confused as hell. I mean it is true that iceman can control the water or mouisture and then he is in control...but what if all that water that he controls gets broken down? Im gonna need to think about all this....but I think that even if the water got broken down couldnt iceman just move to another part of the moiusture "stream" thus saving himself and then causing havok?