Iceman (full potential) vs. Superman

The body is permeated by moisture but...... It controls the water not the otherway around read back. If bobby is controlling things on an atomic level that are liquid, so is a normal human body,( please read back its not immaterial). He might try to remove the moisture but water doesn't work that way in the body. They would not be completely devoid of moisture as the biological important properties of water are two fold, its polarity and its cobesiveness. The shape of a water molecule when drawn is triangular, not linear, giving it a asymmetrical distribution of charge. Water is not something in itself its made of an oxygen nucleus which draws charge away from the hydrogen nuclei. Water is electrically polar.
Water molecules have a high affinity for each other so a positively charged region of one water molecule lines up with the negative of another. So what does this mean in our debate it means water is moved by the charges of the body in a normal human and would be far more so in supes. Supes systems decides where the water goes not Bobby. Bobby would be trying to fight systems that put atoms in place at super speed in Supes he would lose. In the Sameway Supes is Super in the macro, his systems must be super in the micro 😄

You misunderstand what I mean about freezing and friction. Liquids are not liquids in biochemical reactions on the micro, they are collections of atoms, subatomic particles, ionic charges etc each of these has an energy state in humans, these are affected by extreme cold because the energy slows them down.Tthis is not instant though unless the cold is extreme, freezing by its very nature is the slowing of these particles, so the bonds between them grow stronger as the energy state of the particles is reduced. Supes particles have to be simply super, acting like mini Supermen in the micro as Manjaro indicated, the comic showing his inside showed pictorially. Put simply Bobby is fighting Super speed inside and out he can't win, as fast as he trys to lower energy the energy goes back up. 😄 Its not about temp its about speed 😄 Super Speed.

Keep the faith😄

Stay Whirly 🤘

Originally posted by illadelph12
Interesting Whirly.

But immaterial.

Explain what would happen to an organism when it is completely devoid of moisture.

I'm sure most already know.

Superman can not live devoid of all moisture within his being.

By Iceman inhabiting Superman's bodily fluids, he controls the water;

the water becomes his body.

Now, as far as water going anywhere in the body, you and I both know the body is permeated with moisture. The texture and health of your epidermis (skin cells) is dependent on hydration, as well as the rest of your body. Dead cells are devoid of moisture. Cells DIE when devoid of any form of hydration. In an organism, cellular cohesion, as well as functions (like regeneration) are facilitated in major part by hydration levels. Supes cells would be unable to perform their functions if they were completely devoid of moisture.

Now as far as Iceman being in trouble by being caught in the currents of Supes metabolism, that is untrue. Bobby doesn't have to take form once inside Superman, he just has to inhabit the fluids. His consciousness will not be coursing through Supes being. So long as there is moisture within Superman's body, Bobby will be there.

Now, as far as freezing Supes fluids, Iceman doesn't freeze things by simply dropping the temperature. He psionically controls the motion within molecules, slowing them or altogether stopping them, in essence, removing kinetic energy (motion) within them. He can do this to the molecules within Supes's bloodstream, cellular structure, and bodily fluids.

Superman's internal bodily temperature is not of an extreme to which organic material can not exist within him. The Atom and Steel both entered his body, as well as Protex. Bobby has counteracted temperature extremes created by the Human Torch and stalemated him.

I know that part my friend . I know all about the chemical bonds and polarities of the 2 hydrogen atoms and the oxygen atom that makes up water, and I know about the electrolysis that takes place within an organism's body chemistry. It doesn't change the fact that water and moisture is ever present in a organism, and if Iceman were to inhabit the moisture within Superman's body, gather it to himself, and exit Superman's body, using the inhabited moisture to form his own body, Superman would be reduced to powder, just like dehydrated milk or freeze dried beef that astronauts take into space.

That's the point you've been jumping around.

When Bobby inhabits the fluids in Supes body, he controls them. They become Bobby's body. He can control the temperature and flow of these fluids. They are him, not Superman anymore. For a better example, if Iceman inhabited the water within a high powered fire hose that was blasting a jet of water in one direction, he can easily move freely upstream. If Bobby inhabited the fluids of a septic system in a 100 story building and every toilet in the buiding were flushed simultaneously, he'd still reach the 100th floor unimpeded.

Now when you say this:

The body is permeated by moisture but...... It controls the water not the otherway around read back.

That's true, but under normal circumstances the water in a body is not inhabited by a sentient presence which can control the motion and temperature of it, or draw it all unto itself and exit your body with it, leaving you completely devoid of hydration.

Oh, and about this:

Put simply Bobby is fighting Super speed inside and out he can't win, as fast as he trys to lower energy the energy goes back up. Its not about temp its about speed Super Speed.

It's not about temperature, it's about stopping the motion of molecules in all fluids within Superman's body, which is not Bobby's only method of attack.

let me clear up a slight error. during that atom and steel incident. seeing as how i read it when it just came 6 years ago i missed a few small details, it was originally supergirl, superboy, and steel that went in but atom was monitoring from outside....til it turned out that steel's armor was sabotged by prankster i believe, then it was later that the real steel and atom went in. thats when atom made his comment. i believe it was something to the effect of 4 chambers and counting...or i just came in and theres already four chambers...something like that(collected in superman: Critical Condition)

anyhoo, just had to clear that up. back to the real argument. remember iceman constantly exists in ice form right, and ice is cold right? not to sound smart alecy, so if he transforms into vapor as a result of his own accord, unless he can immediatley decrease his ice cold state to room temp. im guessing that supes would be able to tell where he is(with his heightened senses and all you know) Also, even if supes bathes him with a blast of heat vision and turns him into steam again there will be an obvious temp. difference from regular outdoor temp. seeing as how steam will always be steam(law of thermodynamics and all you know) so i dont even think he would end up inside him anyway, so that throws that out the window. that is, not unless supes was having a picnic or something and bobby turned into vapor from a hundred yards away and just blended in with regular atmospheric temp.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Oh, and about this:

It's not about temperature, it's about stopping the motion of molecules in all fluids within Superman's body, which is not Bobby's only method of attack.

As I said it not about temperature its about energy, and stopping motion, Supes can survive at absolute zero, therefore temperature extremes cannot affect the mov oent of particles inside his Superbody, the aura must somehow prevent this.

Sucking out Supes moisture again not possible as quite simple supes cells would not let him be dehydrated. Water is a constituent of bodily fluids, it interacts with molecules that are not liquid, Blood for example is a combination of a wariety of cells, fats macro and micro enzymes etc as well as water and all are linked in one way or another to simply say bobby inhabits the water and pulls it away is terrible science with a human, if it worked its bad writing😄 With Supes it could not work as all these connections if supes physiology is anything like ours would be hyped up. Simply put Bobby can't do this, as water is rarely water alone in the body 😄

Keep the faith 🤘

Stay Whirly 😄

ok the thing is....what is that forcfield made up of? because if it is composed of molecules then iceman can stop any motion in it being blocked by the aurora.....thus also being able to control the motion of the liquids in supes body....thats how iceman freezes by stopping all the motion in molecules, and Im thinking that even if Supes is alien he still has molecules to control.......oh and energy and temperature are the same thing right? the energy from molecules create the rise in temperature, and the way that iceman works he wouldnt just freeze supes with ice but actually stop all the motion in any of his molecules....

It has to be an energy field, which is not composed of particles in a traditional sense although wave particle/duality means that the energy could behave like both. Now to stop an reaction you have to reduce its energy state, in bobbies case the question is can his attempts at stopping the molecules match the attemps of Supes molecules to move around.............I simply doubt it if all supes reactions happen at super speed as they must 😄 Heat and Energy are not the same thing, although a thermal gradient is the most basic example of energy moving 😄

Keep the faith 😄

Stay Whirly 🤘

thing is that at his full potiental he must be able to do this even if the molecules move fast becuase its the one power hes used most of his career even if he didnt even know what he was doing....ill post some info that I have on icemans powers that state something about speed and molecules....

Originally posted by Blair Wind
thing is that at his full potiental he must be able to do this even if the molecules move fast becuase its the one power hes used most of his career even if he didnt even know what he was doing....ill post some info that I have on icemans powers that state something about speed and molecules....

Ah, but Supes molecules are being supercharged by his Aura, so as fast as Bobby tries to stop the them the Aura's energy speedsthem up, its part of what it does 😄 You can't just stop particles, the energy they have has to go somewhere and in supes case the amount of energy would be huge😄

Originally posted by whirlysplat
Ah, but Supes molecules are being supercharged by his Aura, so as fast as Bobby tries to stop the them the Aura's energy speedsthem up, its part of what it does 😄 You can't just stop particles, the energy they have has to go somewhere and in supes case the amount of energy would be huge😄

Yeah, but his aura is caused by a biochemical process within Supes body which Bobby can halt. The biomatrix is a byproduct of the metaprotein being metabolized. Bobby can stop the metabolization by stopping the motion (freezing) of the fluid in the cells and destroying the catalyst.

The temperature of Supes body is not too extreme. Members of the JLA have miniaturized and entered his body. If his bodily temperatures were so extreme they would not have survived inside his body. The reason he is able to survive heat and cold extremes is because his biomatrix protects him from external influences. Bobby can bypass this and attack from within his protection, not just within his body. I doubt Supes innards are hotter than the Human Torch's, and Iceman can stalemate Torch.

And I also see absolutely no reason why Bobby can't inhabit the fluid within Superman's body and remove it, or why Supes can not become completely dehydrated. Once he inhabits the moisture in Supes body he can draw it all unto himself and create a new body from it, leaving Supes completely devoid of all hydration. His body constantly reclaims the energy released by the metaprotein, not the moisture released by his body.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Yeah, but his aura is caused by a biochemical process within Supes body which Bobby can halt. The biomatrix is a byproduct of the metaprotein being metabolized. Bobby can stop the metabolization by stopping the motion (freezing) of the fluid in the cells and destroying the catalyst.

The temperature of Supes body is not too extreme. Members of the JLA have miniaturized and entered his body. If his bodily temperatures were so extreme they would not have survived inside his body. The reason he is able to survive heat and cold extremes is because his biomatrix protects him from external influences. Bobby can bypass this and attack from within his protection, not just within his body. I doubt Supes innards are hotter than the Human Torch's, and Iceman can stalemate Torch.

And I also see absolutely no reason why Bobby can't inhabit the fluid within Superman's body and remove it, or why Supes can not become completely dehydrated. Once he inhabits the moisture in Supes body he can draw it all unto himself and create a new body from it, leaving Supes completely devoid of all hydration. His body constantly reclaims the energy released by the metaprotein, not the moisture released by his body.

Like you said its about energy not temp and I would suggest like tis argument supes powers are in a cycle the high energy bonds release energy to power the release of the aura which in turn lends stability and super properties to the system. I don't think Bobby can interrupt this.

But like I said the argument is now circular we don't know who could produce the more power to affect the motion of particles Supes and his Aura or Bobby Drakes less defined powers. When an impasse is reached and no new info has really been forthcoming for two days its time to bail on this discussion. Thanks for the debate illadelph but without new info e.g amount of energy produced and stabilised by supes aura in relation to the power exerted by Bobby this debate is going nowhere.

As for why he can't inhabit the fluid its to do in my opinion with the fact fluids are only solvents and are in biological processes in constant change in most situations to maitain order 9I know it sounds crazy but thats how interactions work), things are constantly going on in these liquids and these things are attached to the liquids in one way or another, everything is connected and I suspect Supes aura ensures this.

So I'm bailing, as I have really been repeating myself for the last two days.

Keep the faith 🙂

Stay Whirly 😄

No prob man.

Thanks for the exhange.

It's good to get a lil brain sparring in inbetween tax auctions and demanding girlfriends.

Originally posted by illadelph12
No prob man.

Thanks for the exhange.

It's good to get a lil brain sparring in inbetween tax auctions and demanding girlfriends.

Or Girlfriends and writing papers 😄 in my case

Thanks mate, nice discussion 😄

Originally posted by illadelph12
Yeah, but his aura is caused by a biochemical process within Supes body which Bobby can halt. The biomatrix is a byproduct of the metaprotein being metabolized. Bobby can stop the metabolization by stopping the motion (freezing) of the fluid in the cells and destroying the catalyst.

The temperature of Supes body is not too extreme. Members of the JLA have miniaturized and entered his body. If his bodily temperatures were so extreme they would not have survived inside his body. The reason he is able to survive heat and cold extremes is because his biomatrix protects him from external influences. Bobby can bypass this and attack from within his protection, not just within his body. I doubt Supes innards are hotter than the Human Torch's, and Iceman can stalemate Torch.

And I also see absolutely no reason why Bobby can't inhabit the fluid within Superman's body and remove it, or why Supes can not become completely dehydrated. Once he inhabits the moisture in Supes body he can draw it all unto himself and create a new body from it, leaving Supes completely devoid of all hydration. His body constantly reclaims the energy released by the metaprotein, not the moisture released by his body.

good, but how is he gonna circumvent his supercharged molecules to destroy them. and remember supes molecules are such that if there is even a slight injury his system will kick in. cuz im thinking that halting these processes in his body(providing that bobby can even do such a thing)would result in some sort of excrutiating pain for superman....ergo an injury...ergo an acclerated healing rate kicking in...ergo bobby being bumrushed by superman shaped antibodies.

lol!

You imagine if Dennis Quaid in Innerspace got injected into Superman by mistake lol?

"Help! They're chasing after me! I can't outrun them! They're ripping apart my ship! Holy crap - their eyes!!! I'm burning! Aaaaargh....!!!"

just some more info on iceman, not sure if it will change anyones mind or if Illadelph can use is, but here it is

Bobby Drake could be, potentially, one of the most powerful mutants on
the planet. Look at his power. People say “Ooh! He makes ice.” Or
now, “Ooh, he can turn himself into ice!"

But let’s step back. Basic physics says that there is no such thing
as “cold”, as a quantative energy form. Only degrees of heat. “Cold” is
relative term, requiring a difference between the observerd target and
the temperature of the observer. Example: I’m standing in my office, at
a nice 73 degrees. The cabbie outside is standing on the street,
shivering in 40 degrees. To me, he is cold. Whereas if I were buried in
snow at around 20 degrees, I’d consider him pretty warm.

Right then, we’ve established that there is no such energy form
as “cold”. So, Bobby doesn’t generate cold to form ice, and he doesn’t
generate the moisture himself (imagine how quickly he’d be
dehydrated). Therefore, he forms his ice structures from the ambient
moisture in the enviroment around him. To do this he causes the
moisture to freeze.

But how? We know he doesn’t “project cold”, so then he must absorb or
dissipate the heat. By the laws of thermodynamics, energy is constant,
it cannot be created or destroyed. However, let’s go to another scientific
principle. Heat is a measurement of the internal kinetic energy of an
object. The more those atoms and molecules are buzzing around, the
hotter it is.

What Bobby Drake does, as I see it, is project a field that inhibits the
motion of those particles (herein referred to as Brownian Motion) thus
dropping the temperature and freezing the moisture.

However, the amount of water vapor in any given area is not consistent
with the large stunts he regularly pulls of ( Ice slides, ice walls, ect). If
he were to coalesce that much water vapor in one place and freeze it,
the humidity all along the Eastern Seaboard would drop dramatically,
we’d have wildcat lightning storms all over the place, cats and dogs
living together, it would be anarchy, you see my point.

So that extra frozen mass has to come from somewere. Remember
water vapor isn’t the only thing in the air. You have a mixture of all
sorts of gases. One of the most prominent of these is carbon dioxide.
Compared to the other prominent gases in our atmosphere
(nitrogen, the most common, and oxygen), carbon dioxide has a
relatively high temperature (although still incredibly low) at which it
becomes solid. It is my theory that the most part of Bobby’s ice
structures are composed of frozen carbon dioxide, or “dry
ice”. This would explain why Manhattan isn’t flooded everytime his ice
slides melt, since most of it sumblimes into gaseous carbon dioxide.

So, what Bobby does is inhibit the Brownian Motion of objects. He can
do this so quickly that there is no expansion of the target’s water
content, as was seen when he flash-froze Legion completely. Had he
merely frozen all the moisture in Legion’s body, well....put an
unopened can of soda in the freezer sometime. Wait a few days. Watch
the results. Legion would be a messy red chunck when he thawed.

Bobby is an incredibly powerful cryokinetic. But thats not the only extent
to his powers. Since Mikhail’s fiddling, he can transform his entire body
into a water-based organism. In his form of homogenous ice, his
thought processes go on, even though water is a MUCH less efficient
conducter than neurons in the himan brain. Basically, Bobby
converts all the molecules of his body into water, and freezes it and
molds it as he moves. He has the capability to assume a completely
liquid form (as Emma did when in control of his body) as well has the
ability to “teleport” by zapping his consciousness through water vapor in
the atmosphere, reforming at his desired location. In AoA, this was
referred to “moisture inversion”. He has also shown the ability
to “levitate” himself though he rarely uses this ability.

Through time and practice Bobby could one day realize his potiental.
Here are somethings that could do through realization and training:

Create a “giant” ice form with corresponding strength and stability
Create and animate multiple ice forms
Coalese all the water vapor in an area into a superdense solid, dropping
the humidity rapidly, resulting in chaotic weather effects, mass electrical
storms, ect
Inhibiting the moisture in other peoples bodies causing havok on them, or hitching a ride.

As well as many other stunts. In closing, Bobby is a rightful Omega
class powered mutant he just hasnt realized his full potiental as of yet.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
iceman.....i know lots of people here will disagree but at full potential iceman can win.....the best method is to turn into water vapor which is called mouisture inversion (how can supes see him even with microscopic vision if he IS water vapor which is naturally in the air) and no supes wont just breath him in since he has no idea where Bobby is....then Bobby can just mouiture inversion Supe's head off....since he was able to mouisture inversion people in AoA (i think, right) why not partially turn selective parts (Clarks head) into water vapor....then you have one dead Superman. in a fist fight iceman loses but if he gets creative with that and other things like make fighting ice golems (which he was practicing in uncanny x-men while talking to Nightcrawler) to just annoying Supes with ice spikes coming out of nowhere (since bobby is the water vapor) until he just mouiture inversions his head off.....so with all that I say Iceman wins.

Ever heard of heat vision?

Originally posted by Freaky Zeeky
Ever heard of heat vision?

what will Superman do, evaporate him? Bobby will just say thanks and continue whatever it is hes doing.

Current Iceman (which may not be full potential Iceman but I don't see how he can become more powerful) can be killed by nothing short of sucking up the entire earth's waters (including ice and vapour) containing them and generating such great heat that they all the water is simultaneously atomised into a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen. It must be simultaneous because the heat must cease immediately after atomisation, if it is not simultaneous excess heat subsequently causes combustion of the hydrogen reforming water where Bobby's consciousness can move to. This sort of feat could only be done to god-like Iceman by precrisis ludicrously (and erratically) powerful god-like superman.

Originally posted by manjaro
good, but how is he gonna circumvent his supercharged molecules to destroy them. and remember supes molecules are such that if there is even a slight injury his system will kick in. cuz im thinking that halting these processes in his body(providing that bobby can even do such a thing)would result in some sort of excrutiating pain for superman....ergo an injury...ergo an acclerated healing rate kicking in...ergo bobby being bumrushed by superman shaped antibodies.