Originally posted by whirlysplat
[B]Psionic energy = amount of power given to psions (theoretical not fake subatomic particles). No its the energy from meta ATP (fake but based on ATP a substance produced in the mitochondria which has energy stored in high energy bonds, which are released due to three catalytic sites in the binding mechanism having three conformational states, driven by proton flux). Which powers Supes brain to provide psions with energy to perform feats for him, the breath is how this manifests for Superman, how his brain makes sense of the changes he wants.
All that explained is how he'd be a repository for more energy, that explanation does nothing to explain how that manifests itself in super power. Having more energy absorbed does not equal having superhuman abilities. You're welcome to try again, since the effort seems to amuse you so.
Also, psionic energy has nothing to do with psions as subatomic particles, which I've never even heard of. It's a form of atmospheric energy. Psionics have varying levels of control over it by creating a chain reaction from object to object. Iceman commands psionic energy (or psions, to make you happy) to absorb energy from molecules of his choosing, essentially causing the spin to slow or stop as he sees fit.
On the other hand, MATP, in its definition in Superman, has almost nothing in common with real ATP - surely you understand that.
As much fun as destroying the basis for Superman's powers is (as I'm sure it is for any comic character), it's really besides the point, isn't it? Superman DOES have super powers, however hokey MATP is, as Iceman DOES have super powers, however hokey Psionic energy is. So you'd be better served applying your scientific knowledge to how Superman will survive his molecules being frozen than using it to undermine the very basis of all superpowers...don't destroy the battlefield for the sake of the battle. That's not being whirly. 😄
Originally posted by demigawd
All that explained is how he'd be a repository for more energy, that explanation does nothing to explain how that manifests itself in super power. Having more energy absorbed does not equal having superhuman abilities. You're welcome to try again, since the effort seems to amuse you so.Also, psionic energy has nothing to do with psions as subatomic particles, which I've never even heard of. It's a form of atmospheric energy. Psionics have varying levels of control over it by creating a chain reaction from object to object. Iceman commands psionic energy (or psions, to make you happy) to absorb energy from molecules of his choosing, essentially causing the spin to slow or stop as he sees fit.
On the other hand, MATP, in its definition in Superman, has almost nothing in common with real ATP - surely you understand that.
As much fun as destroying the basis for Superman's powers is (as I'm sure it is for any comic character), it's really besides the point, isn't it? Superman DOES have super powers, however hokey MATP is, as Iceman DOES have super powers, however hokey Psionic energy is. So you'd be better served applying your scientific knowledge to how Superman will survive his molecules being frozen than using it to undermine the very basis of all superpowers...don't destroy the battlefield for the sake of the battle. That's not being whirly. 😄
Meta ATP is defined differently to a suped up version of ATP how? Where instead or the energy binding being caused by Proton flow its light driven, the Fo unit is Solar instead😄 imo
As for destroying the battlefield thats what people have been trying to do to Supes invulnerability using "Science" in this thread😄 So turnabout is fair play imo. I could have amped it up like this immediatly but, I wanted a debate. It was when people started saying Supes could be frozen etc, I had to laugh, Its his invulnerability to these kind of acts that defines him as a character. Whatever Science you use.
Keep the faith 😄
Still very Whirly 😄
In Photosynthesis ATP is synthesized differently to in respiration, So if we use plants the proton pump is light driven. In Supes as he is not green etc this is silly therefore no pigments to mediate the proton pump component is required. The exact mechanism it could be theorised is somekind of light driven enzyme, rather than pigments etc
Originally posted by whirlysplatWhat part of that explanation is extremely amusing to me? Answers in a paper entitled, "Mass can vanish totally, instantly without a trace except subatomic particles without an energy release" 😂
who said his mass vanishes?? 😕 If his body is destroyed (its not really a human body, its made of ice looking like a human body) then the constituent mass is simply dispersed, it doesnt "vanish" and I dont think anyone said that.... having his body dispersed/destroyed doesnt affect him as long as there is moisture around.
Originally posted by FieryBalrog
who said his mass vanishes?? 😕 If his body is destroyed (its not really a human body, its made of ice looking like a human body) then the constituent mass is simply dispersed, it doesnt "vanish" and I dont think anyone said that.... having his body dispersed/destroyed doesnt affect him as long as there is moisture around.
So where is is brain? Where is the energy he needs? Whats his power source, please read all posts before posting 😄
gibberish
Originally posted by whirlysplat
So where is is brain? Where is the energy he needs? Whats his power source, please read all posts before posting 😄gibberish
brain? what is this, reality? 😄 His consciousness exists independently of a brain, it has to because his "body" is just ice, no organs or such...
hey, Xorn has a "star" in his head, no brain...
Originally posted by whirlysplatThat still has absolutely nothing to do with explaining how it would give him super powers. It could account for how cells could stay alive indefinitely, it could even account for self-sustaining life functions that could make an organism immortal, but MATP could never scientifically account for the granting of superpowers. ATP is responsible for cellular activity, and being supercharged would only enhance a limited number of functions, not give entirely new powers. The functions that ATP (or MATP) governs is limited to anabolic reactions, active transport of molecules and ions, nerve impulses, maintenance of cell volume by osmosis, adding phosphate groups different proteins, etc. Super-breath, heat vision or FTL speed is not one of those functions. So MATP is as false a concept as anything you've been arguing against all this time. I just didn't bother picking on it because it doesn't contribute anything to the debate at hand...but it's easy to do.
Meta ATP is defined differently to a suped up version of ATP how? Where instead or the energy binding being caused by Proton flow its light driven, the Fo unit is Solar instead😄 imo
As for destroying the battlefield thats what people have been trying to do to Supes invulnerability using "Science" in this thread So turnabout is fair play imo.
There's a big difference between scientifically arguing a point on the basis of the conditions we're provided (MATP grants planet-moving abilities and the Astral Plane houses consciousness) and undermining those given conditions for no particularly effective reason. The former is fair game, the only person doing the latter is you. I've explained how Iceman's ability to stop molecular spin would affect Superman regardless of any imagined cellular forcefield he has...you haven't countered that, you've only launched into a tirade about how comicbook science is nonsense, thus deviating from the very topic you started the tirade to address.
The bottom line here is the following:
1. Iceman CAN transfer his consciousness without a physical house for his brain because he HAS done it because there IS an Astral Plane
2. Superman has a billion or so powers because there IS such as thing as Meta ATP that DOES grant him those powers because he has those powers
3. Iceman DOES have the ability to psionically slow or stop the spin of molecules.
4. Superman IS comprised of molecules, forcefield and all
5. Iceman CAN stop Superman's molecules because, well, they're molecules and Iceman hasn't been unable to stop molecules yet.
6. Superman's body CAN be affected internally at a microscopic level because it HAS been affected internally on several occasions
Anything outside of these core points is superfulous and beside the point.
I could have amped it up like this immediatly but, I wanted a debate. It was when people started saying Supes could be frozen etc, I had to laugh, Its his invulnerability to these kind of acts that defines him as a character. Whatever Science you use.
Except he has no such invulnerability. Even using your most technical definition of what MATP does for Superman, none of that includes the ability to block a command to his molecules. Furthermore, his molecules have been affected on at least three separate occasions I've named in previous posts. If they've already been affected by people three times, then obviously it can be affected. And no convoluted explanation on MATP or attempt at countering the existence of the Astral Plane or whatever is going to change established precedent.
So there.
Again I have argued the point, simply stated meta ATP provides energy to allow supes brain to interact with Psions (how Suzuki explains psions scientifically). This interaction is what gives supes his strength and how normal telekinesis works. He has a brain the only way supes can visualise moving things is physically so he has to be "hands on". The field is produced completely differently and obviously it is produced by some unknown organelles that directly convert his cells super energy into a kind of unknown energy which interacts in the same way a cell membrane does with receptors. If you read back all of these concepts have been explained and expanded on by me somewhere in this thread 😄
Keep the faith 😄
Read all posts 😄
Understand them 😄
Stay Whirly 😄
wow in the midst of all the copying and pasting from scientific sources and pretending that we (myself inlcuded) are all smarter than we really are it got a little confusing there for the last 3 or 4 pages😆
however lets just get back to the basics. there seems to be some sort of confusion as to how superman's solar charged cellular structure works. im not gonna go back over the ATP and Meta protein stuff cuz im sure we all got that memorized by now. besides when you think about it thats arguing from the side of real world science, which we really shouldnt be. so the basic jist is this. supermans molecules arent enveloped in an Aura per se, but rather they are CHARGED with energy from the ambient yellow end of the EM spectrum. the operative word being CHARGED. just picture a stun gun going off, or a downed powerline, thats what charged energy looks like.
and for an even further simpler example just picture a lit match or a burning candle. the flame is the energy and the subsequent smoke is the ATP or whatever other metabolizing mechanism supes body uses, and its this discharge that the cells exude individually that creates a collective blanket of energy that pushes forward to his skin. i cant think of any simpler analogies than that.
that being said, thats the reason ive been maintaining that overriding his moisture wont work. because the moisture in supes body is just the vehicle for his indestructable cells. its just like when you watch discovery channel and you see how they make jet engines. the flame looks beautiful, and thin like you could just run your hand thru it but its basically like a furnace housed in metal tubing. thats what would happen to bobby if he got in there he would be incinerated, AND THATS PROVIDING THAT HE COULD EVEN PIERCE THE CELL WALLS IN THE FIRST PLACE. thats whats really important here. it would be like punching a hole in the pistoning nuclear engine of a submarine, or even back to the jet engine(providing that both ends are closed) on the outside you're nice and safe but if said hole is punched you'll be reduced ash and vapor by the intense heat and radiation that would rush out to give you a nice hug😆
we all know that he can control moisture on a molecular scale but what most ppl have been suggesting and or confusing is that bobby has some sort of telekinesis rather than his power of controlling water. cuz yeah Manchester black gave superman the equivalent of a stroke but that was becuase he used telekinesis to shift around parts of superman's brain not halt his moisture(which he recovered from very swiftly mind you). Dr.Polaris was able to affect superman becuase he blasted him with an EMP, and we can argue that since Dr. Polaris controls the EM spectrum(like another guy we know) the power dampening qualties of the Red end of the EM spectrum was what that temporarily stunned superman. also if you have control over magentism you're basically telekinetic anyway. plus since superman cells are charged with solar energy, the photonic emissions are still within The EMS for Polaris to control so thats completely different, there is no basis to say since they affected him bobby can do it too.
in order for bobby to control his moisture he would have to possess superman like some kind of wraith, he cant stay from the outside and control the moisture within. and since he would have to hitch a ride on the O2 that superman breathes in anyway one of two things would happen. 1. he would get metabolized the same way supes does regular "unconscious" O2😆 or 2. he just couldnt do anything at all. so i think you guys should stop pulling at straws with this thing. unless they're are fighting in a star system with no yellow sun, there's no way bobby is gonna do any of this at all
Originally posted by whirlysplat
The field is produced completely differently and obviously it is produced by some unknown organelles that directly convert his cells super energy into a kind of unknown energy which interacts in the same way a cell membrane does with receptors. If you read back all of these concepts have been explained and expanded on by me somewhere in this thread 😄
Ah, the old unknown card, huh? Tsk tsk. Well Bobby conducts his consciousness through some unknown energy source that houses the psions that interact with molecules, either speeding them up on slowing them down.
See? I can do it too. 😆
If anybody else has anything to contribute, I'm game. Otherwise, this has become boring and repetitive. I'm off for more fertile ground!
But I'll still stay whirly!
Originally posted by demigawd
Ah, the old unknown card, huh? Tsk tsk. Well Bobby conducts his consciousness through some unknown energy source that houses the psions that interact with molecules, either speeding them up on slowing them down.See? I can do it too. 😆
If anybody else has anything to contribute, I'm game. Otherwise, this has become boring and repetitive. I'm off for more fertile ground!
But I'll still stay whirly!
No thats not what I said at all nothing houses Psions they are subatomic particles controlled by the brain. The field is an unknown energy obviously.
Reread it again
Same problem as before you don't read it all😄
here play with the ball some more
keep the faith 😄
Stay Whirly 🤘
The confusion here is that people are arguing different things about Bobby. Bobby doesn't just control moisture molecules...he controls the very spin of molecules. That's how he's able to make things absolute zero...he halts the spin. That's also how he was able to control blood flow...it's blood, not water. It's not actually limited to water. So Bobby wouldn't have to penetrate Superman, he wouldn't have to get at Superman's water supply, he wouldn't have to do anything but look and order the molecules to stop. Moisture is only the vehicle for transporting and forming himself, but Bobby at his potential is able to stop molecules of any kind...including the molecules of Superman's forcefield.
And even if he were limited to water molecules...he need not be inside somebody to cause their water molecules to stop. So the idea that Bobby couldn't himself penetrate Superman or escape if he did is meaningless. Any water inside Superman's body would come to an abrupt halt, from wherever Bobby is. That's why the comparison to Manchester Black and Polaris is valid. In both cases, they were on the outside and able to affect internal processes. In Black's case, it was the ability to affect his brain capillaries (and other things). In Polaris' case, it was the ability to affect the iron in his blood (not the most recent battle between them, an earlier one against the JLA). Bobby would be doing essentially the same thing...being on the outside and affecting an internal process. Whether it's iron in the blood, blood capillaries or moisture carried in the blood, they're all internal processes, and they've all been shown to be affected by enemies. Bobby would be no different.
i am arguing one thing you are confusing the esoteric with the scientific. You tried to destroy Supes powers "scientifically" and didn't really like the answer that invulnerable means just that. Because by applying Science to Supes abilities in an effort to prove Bobby can stop him you ran into Supes aura.
Keep the faith 🤘
Stay Whirly 🤘