That's not what happened. Black nailed Superman with the blood control trick, then told Coldcast to finish him off. Coldcast hit Supes with some huge blast and Superman was out. So the Elite thought the fight was over because they assumed he was dead (PIS). Guess they forgot to check. His superhomeostasis kicked in from there because recovered really quickly, flew away at super-speed and started picking off the Elite members one by one using stealth tactics. Against Manchester, Manchester started building up all this power while talking trash (CIS), which gave Superman just the opportunity he needed to labotomize him. Of course, the difference between the Elite fight and an Iceman fight is that stealth tactics would work well against the Elite because they all have bodies and human vulnerability...not so against Bobby.
But, no, Manchester never lost the ability to affect Superman.
He didn't slow Superman down. He had Superman dead to rights. He pretty much gave him a stroke and Superman only escaped because of Black's cockneyed cockiness. The way you describe it, Superman was marching towards him and Black was throwing everything he had but Superman just kept marching. That's not how it happened.
It doesn't prove conclusively that Bobby could do that. But it proves that opponents could bypass whatever MATP protection his internal system has and adversely affect him. And if at least three separate opponents could do that, then I see no reason why Bobby would be the exception.
Originally posted by demigawd
It was an issue of JLA where he beat the entire league by controlling the iron in their blood. Coldcast wrecked his synapses during the Elite issues of the JLA.There's no evidence that Superman is invulnerable to that. Burning, extreme gravity, sub-zero, etc. are all external effects functioning on his body as a whole. Iceman isn't going to cover Superman in ice. If that's what he were limited to, then I'd agree that Superman would own him. He's not - he's stopping every molecule in superman's body. Superman has never shown invulnerability to this. In fact, he's shown significant vulnerability to this.
Superman's speed would only be significant if he could use it to put Bobby down. There's really nothing Superman can do to beat Bobby. He'd likely smash or burn Bobby up, and think he'd won the fight, since there'd appear to be nothing left of him. And in actuality, he'd be just where Bobby wanted him.
There is plenty he could do. Where does it say that Iceman is immortal?
What can bobby do if supes vibrates intangible? Heat visions him to the basic compounds. Throws him into the sun. His consciousness is only one place at a time..at supes speed, Bobby would pose no challenge.
This is still going? 🤨
Iceman is a being of sentient living water, able to inhabit any body of water, ice or vapour with the ability to remove kinetic energy from atoms.
Superman is a being of alien physiology which allows him to do all sorts of freaky sh!t. For the purposes of the fight we're now assuming that Superman can increase the kinetic energy of his molecules as fast as Iceman can decrease the kinetic energy of
This is a non fight.
Both are for all intents and purposes immortal/invulnerable to the other.
Stalemate.
Over it 😄
Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
There is plenty he could do. Where does it say that Iceman is immortal?
What can bobby do if supes vibrates intangible? Heat visions him to the basic compounds. Throws him into the sun. His consciousness is only one place at a time..at supes speed, Bobby would pose no challenge.
If Superman vibrates intangible, all it means is that you can't touch him because you go through his molecules. It doesn't mean his molecules aren't there, so he'd be just as vulnerable to molecular manipulation as he would otherwise be.
Heat vision would only turn Bobby into water vapor - heat would change his state, it wouldn't reduce him to base components. You're confusing heat vision with electrolysis.
Throwing Bobby into the sun wouldn't work - he'd absorb himself into the atmosphere and attack Superman without him even knowing it.
Superman just doesn't have the tools to beat someone like Iceman, going superfast would just help Superman exhaust his options and realize that sooner.
Originally posted by demigawd
If Superman vibrates intangible, all it means is that you can't touch him because you go through his molecules. It doesn't mean his molecules aren't there, so he'd be just as vulnerable to molecular manipulation as he would otherwise be.Heat vision would only turn Bobby into water vapor - heat would change his state, it wouldn't reduce him to base components. You're confusing heat vision with electrolysis.
Throwing Bobby into the sun wouldn't work - he'd absorb himself into the atmosphere and attack Superman without him even knowing it.
Superman just doesn't have the tools to beat someone like Iceman, going superfast would just help Superman exhaust his options and realize that sooner.
You are way way overhyping bobby. Supes can use both heat and electricity and wind to kill bobby. There is no water on the sun for a reason. Supes heat vision is hotter than the Sun.
If supes vibrates, bobby will be even more powerless. If supermans outsides arent vulnerable to cold, what makes you think his insides are? His individual cells are vulnerable. There wont be any time to do anything.
Supes freezes bobby back up, throws him into space...flies up and heat visions his remains until there is nothing left but molecules.
If Supes can psionically fill his own lungs with sub zero air and blast freeze breath...bobby aint doing anything beyond that...he is not affecting supes.
Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
You are way way overhyping bobby. Supes can use both heat and electricity and wind to kill bobby. There is no water on the sun for a reason. Supes heat vision is hotter than the Sun.If supes vibrates, bobby will be even more powerless. If supermans outsides arent vulnerable to cold, what makes you think his insides are? His individual cells are vulnerable. There wont be any time to do anything.
Supes freezes bobby back up, throws him into space...flies up and heat visions his remains until there is nothing left but molecules.
If Supes can psionically fill his own lungs with sub zero air and blast freeze breath...bobby aint doing anything beyond that...he is not affecting supes.
🤨 I got very little of what was said. How do I keep getting sucked in this debate. Never thought to ask but is this precrisis "I can do anything" or toned down slightly more believable postcrisis. Also, Superman has electric powers?
I'm just wondering why this is still being so vehemently debated. Iceman is an omega with matter manipulation abilities, he can "teleport" to any other bodies of water/ice/vapour. Superman's alien physiology is still composed of atoms but for the sake of argument I'll grant that somehow his molecules are capable of resisting Iceman's power.
Superman is unaffected by Iceman somehow.
Iceman cannot be destroyed by Superman without electrolysis of all water on earth.
Non-fight. Stalemate.
Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
You are way way overhyping bobby. Supes can use both heat and electricity and wind to kill bobby. There is no water on the sun for a reason. Supes heat vision is hotter than the Sun.If supes vibrates, bobby will be even more powerless. If supermans outsides arent vulnerable to cold, what makes you think his insides are? His individual cells are vulnerable. There wont be any time to do anything.
Supes freezes bobby back up, throws him into space...flies up and heat visions his remains until there is nothing left but molecules.
If Supes can psionically fill his own lungs with sub zero air and blast freeze breath...bobby aint doing anything beyond that...he is not affecting supes.
How can Supes use electricity? He has no electric powers. Wind or heat won't do much. Like I said, heat vision won't destroy water, just evaporate it, changing it gas, but Bobby can exist as gas. So all those options are out the window. Freezing Bobby won't do anything that Bobby can't do himself. He could freeze Bobby and it wouldn't even be Bobby. It's just another mass of water cells that Bobby has long since abandoned.
Manchester Black, Coldcast and Dr. Polaris all proved that Superman's internal system is vulnerable, so Bobby is hardly powerless. How can anybody say Superman's cells are incapable of being manipulated when all three of these enemies have done it? In fact, NOBODY has failed to manipulate Superman's internal system when they've tried...it's a 100% success rate. The argument that Superman's internal system is incapable of being manipulated doesn't have a leg to stand on.
Superman freezes Bobby, throws him into spaces, heat visions the remains, and returns to the atmosphere. On the way down, he hears "wrong mass of molecules", and that's the last thing Superman hears...
you know what? the way i look at it superman has got super hypnosis.(superman #330) all he has to do is tell Bobby that he is getting sleepy....and call it a day😆
also, superman has single handedly dismantled killer frost and Icicle and all thier "ice minions" when they attacked Iron Works, and just like Bobby they control moisture down to a molecular level(IDK about shifting their consciousness tho). the point is like i have intimated a few pages back, At absolute best all bobby can hope for is a draw, cuz superman is just too versatile, and have been dealing with top tier threats for way too long to not have a quick and easy way to defeat him.
the only reason im not entirely sleeping on iceman is becuase i know for a fact that he freezed the blood in emma frost's brain b4, but i still maintain that supes innards cant be frozen, but bobby still could try though😆 so im thinking either he gets completely annhiliated or manages to stalemate
Superman's fluctuating invulnerability is solved in The prelude to infinite crisis it appears in some ways Supes is a bit like Gladiator only instead of confidence its stress. The more stress Supes is under the more invulnerable he becomes at that time as he starts to store more solar energy the more stressed he becomes. And therefore he becomes more invulnerable I guess. Thats what the Society if Supervillians have discovered and it does seem to fit unintentionally with all examples and theories hypothesised on both sides. So basically like hulks strength goes up so does supes resistance. Bobby if he can better get it over with quick or his toast 😄
Problem and Debate Solved
If Bobby can do it he had better do it fast 😄
Otherwise his toast😄
Keep the faith 😄
Stay Whirly😄
Kind of Solves all mysteries about supes powers 😄
If Killer Frost and Icicle can't exist as a disembodied mass of vapor, then it's a meaningless comparison. And have they tried and failed to freeze Superman's molecules?
Super hypnosis....lol!
Bobby doesn't have to be within arm's length of Superman. Remember, it's psionic. Bobby only has to conceive of Superman, and if Superman exist within the atmosphere, he's screwed.
Originally posted by whirlysplat
Superman's fluctuating invulnerability is solved in The prelude to infinite crisis it appears in some ways Supes is a bit like Gladiator only instead of confidence its stress. The more stress Supes is under the more invulnerable he becomes at that time as he starts to store more solar energy the more stressed he becomes. And therefore he becomes more invulnerable I guess. Thats what the Society if Supervillians have discovered and it does seem to fit unintentionally with all examples and theories hypothesised on both sides. So basically like hulks strength goes up so does supes resistance. Bobby if he can better get it over with quick or his toast 😄 Supes becomes invulnerable to anything he can do 😄Problem and Debate Solved
If Bobby can do it he had better do it fast 😄
Otherwise his toast😄
Keep the faith 😄
Stay Whirly😄
Kind of Solves all mysteries about supes powers 😄
yes they did try and fail
i think everyones starting to lean towards a tie cuz we've been debating in circles now. i swear this is the best thread since magneto vs hulk(of which i was a major player...quite proud to say😄) providing that there hasnt been rampant copying and pasting i swear at least one of you mofokers is gonna cure aids or cancer. so i say we should agree to disagree for the moment and call in one of the moderators to give this thread a proper burial cuz so long as it stays open ppl will forever come in and post the same arguments quick show of rock for who agrees 🤘