Originally posted by sylvanelf
Bobby doesn't sound like he should be called Iceman anymore. AbsoluteControlOverWater-man is more like it.
Controls more than just water but yeh.
No one's convincing anyone on the opposite side that anybody's going to win this fight. Every single argument has been exhausted ad nauseum.
Shouldn't it just be declared a stalemate?
Originally posted by manjaro
on one note tho i went back and read a bunch of stuff, its old now but when steel went inside him he said lord! i counted 8 chambers already. also i re-read the manchester black incident. cold cast who has some sort of electrostatic power along with knocking out a bunch of satellites that were 300miles up he stopped supes electrons from flowing. chemistry 101 again electrons orbit-atoms-that make up-molecules. stop the electrons you stop the molecules. he essentially halted or stopped the spin, if you will. and guess what it only made supes whoozy. he was all like who?...what?...where? and he collected himself in no time flat.then later on io (jupiters moon) manchester black messed with his brain, and put him down and made him all twisted, then cold cast zapped him again while he was down, then as soon as they turn thier backs to gloat supes went missing then b4 you know it he started picking them off one by one, like one of those things in the aliens movie who like to creep up from behind. then manchester told cold cast to zap him again and he was like, no i cant i gave him all i had.
so there's nothing bobby can do that supes wont quickly recover from, if he can do anything at all 😆
Unfortunately for you, you just proved my point. I already said several times that Superman would recover quickly from an attack. My point (which you verified) is that Superman's internal systems are vulnerable to manipulation. So all that rubbish about Meta ATP making his cells invincible, blah, blah is just that - rubbish.
So it seems we're making progress:
1. We're in agreement that Superman's internal cells are capable of manipulation.
2. We're in agreement that Bobby can manipulate internal cells, even in high level beings, like the Elder God Stranger.
3. We're in agreement that the only thing that can destroy H2O bonds is electrolysis, which is one of the few powers Superman doesn't have.
4. We're in agreement that Bobby can exist anywhere where there is any form of H2O, so any electrolysis that did occur would have to be planetary in nature
Therefore, we must conclude that if Bobby can exist in a form that Superman cannot destroy, then Superman cannot destroy Bobby.
We must also conclude, per points 1 and 2, that Bobby has the power to manipulate Superman's internal system to the point where he can stop molecular movement altogether.
I think every non-biased person here must agree to these points - they've been exhaustively proven.
To address the issue of "super-healing" - we're also on agreement with this point:
5. Superman heals HELLUVA fast.
So if Bobby froze the blood to Superman's brain, it would knock Superman out (which should automatically qualify as a win, since it rendered Superman helpless and unable to defend himself). If Bobby then started doing victory dances or whatever, Superman would be up and all over Bobby again in five seconds flat. But...WHO SAYS BOBBY WOULD JUST LET SUPERMAN GO IN THE FIRST PLACE??? That's just supervillain arrogance, it doesn't at all take away from the fact that Coldcast or Manchester Black could have made things at lot worse for Superman if they weren't so bloody cocky and pressed the attack and didn't turn their backs on him. Don't discredit Iceman because of the old "villains must lose" principle. Iceman isn't a villain. Furthermore, when you stop molecular movement entirely, the molecules incapable of receiving commands (like "heal"😉 if you keep them in a persistently frozen state. Bobby could keep Superman's molecules stopped forever...or long enough to turn into a giant fist and smash him in half. Unfreeze = dead Superman.
So it seems that we're all in agreement on every point, and if you analyze the points then I don't see how anyone can't agree that Iceman, if not the overwhelmingly obvious choice, is at least a solid favorite and stands a better chance against Superman than vice-versa.
That's it...those are my points summarized. Anything else is just circular. Either you agree with it or you don't, but there isn't much more to it than that. So it's my last post on the matter. I'll let x, avalon and/or whirly get the last word.
illadelph I have a powerful reality warper, two beings capable of telepathic attack one of which is near physically indestructable, and a fourth being that has no corporeal form and so is also physically indestructible and has the ability to drain life energy fighting Superman without the ability to speedblitz and majority still think Superman wins. 🤨
It's simple, if Cythonna couldnt do it, and Darkseid couldnt do it who have powers far above bobby's levels and they couldnt do it. Iceman isnt going to do it.
Cythonna is an ice goddess.... bobby is a human mutant.. like storm vs Thor.
But Bobby stops molecules! Darkseid reshapes them and erases them from existence at will. Cold is just the absence of heat...you arent going to affect supes this way.
Bobby will lose. His consciousness is not that invincible nor is he that smart..otherwise he'd be the ultimate xman...which he isnt.
Done.
Bah.
Avalon, you're better than that.
Supes would have trouble with, and possibly be beaten by, Cloak from Cloak and Dagger, and he's not in Supes "power class" either.
It's not about power level, it's about tactical advantages based on one's abilities.
Darkseid and Cythonna don't have the luxury of being able to bypass Supes defenses by becoming one with his own body chemistry.
Iceman does.
There's no doubt Darkseid is more powerful than Iceman, but his abilities don't work in the same fashion Bobby's do, so Bobby has avenues of attack not afforded to characters that are more 'powerful' than him.
David took Goliath.
Basically, that line of logic is severely flawed, and you've displayed that you are more intelligent than to resort to that now.
Honestly delph, I understand your point..and the way you explained it makes more sense than the route others have taken.
By my reasoning though is Cythonna can pass through Clarks shield in more ways than one, and Darkseids powers can't even be explained by science. He erases you from existence..how is a biofield supposed to protect you from that?
He's resisted things that shouldnt have any means of being resisted before, part of what makes him Supes.
He doesnt need to drink, breathe, or eat. I doubt Iceman can honestly do anything. I do like your david and goliath comment though. Been a while since I've heard of those 2. I'm going to stay out of this for now. Lets the others have their say..or lets just let this thread die.
Originally posted by demigawd
Unfortunately for you, you just proved my point.............. we're all in agreement on every point, and if you analyze the points then I don't see how anyone can't agree that Iceman, if not the overwhelmingly obvious choice, is at least a solid favorite and stands a better chance against Superman than vice-versa.
That's it...those are my points summarized. Anything else is just circular. Either you agree with it or you don't, but there isn't much more to it than that. So it's my last post on the matter. I'll let x, avalon and/or whirly get the last word.
dude you gotta realize that invulnerable is invulnerable. when magento tried to rip that kid apart on genosha at the seams by unraveling all his molecules he couldnt do it. why? because he was invulnerable. sure he was able to lift him off the ground by manipulating his blood, and subsequnetly threw him into space when he got frustrated but manipulation is different from utter destruction. so what if bobby could manipulate superman's moisture? you cant destroy whats indestructable.
if im not mistaken i believe i said on a number of occasions that if bobby could do that to supes it would be nothing more than a "temporary inconvenience" did i not say that? ergo conceding that it is possible to affect him internally, however you must take into consideration that there were ppl talking about reducing him to ash, or to a husk and all sorts of nonsense. and if im not mistaken i also said that it would boil down to who can incapacitate who first, for neither could kill each other. did i not say that?
so judging from that pov bobby would win, cuz we all know that supes has a strict "no kill" policy no matter what. but in an all or nothing fight to the death its obviouisly superman. especially since it is now established into continuity by DC comics that supes absorb and stores more solar energy the more stress and duress he's under . in other other words the madder and more agitated he gets the stronger he gets, does that remind you of anyone? and let me tell you a mad ass superman is not one you want to be messing with.
Originally posted by demigawd
Unfortunately for you, you just proved my point. I already said several times that Superman would recover quickly from an attack. My point (which you verified) is that Superman's internal systems are vulnerable to manipulation. So all that rubbish about Meta ATP making his cells invincible, blah, blah is just that - rubbish.So it seems we're making progress:
1. We're in agreement that Superman's internal cells are capable of manipulation.
2. We're in agreement that Bobby can manipulate internal cells, even in high level beings, like the Elder God Stranger.
3. We're in agreement that the only thing that can destroy H2O bonds is electrolysis, which is one of the few powers Superman doesn't have.
4. We're in agreement that Bobby can exist anywhere where there is any form of H2O, so any electrolysis that did occur would have to be planetary in nature
Therefore, we must conclude that if Bobby can exist in a form that Superman cannot destroy, then Superman cannot destroy Bobby.
We must also conclude, per points 1 and 2, that Bobby has the power to manipulate Superman's internal system to the point where he can stop molecular movement altogether.
I think every non-biased person here must agree to these points - they've been exhaustively proven.
To address the issue of "super-healing" - we're also on agreement with this point:
5. Superman heals HELLUVA fast.
So if Bobby froze the blood to Superman's brain, it would knock Superman out (which should automatically qualify as a win, since it rendered Superman helpless and unable to defend himself). If Bobby then started doing victory dances or whatever, Superman would be up and all over Bobby again in five seconds flat. But...WHO SAYS BOBBY WOULD JUST LET SUPERMAN GO IN THE FIRST PLACE??? That's just supervillain arrogance, it doesn't at all take away from the fact that Coldcast or Manchester Black could have made things at lot worse for Superman if they weren't so bloody cocky and pressed the attack and didn't turn their backs on him. Don't discredit Iceman because of the old "villains must lose" principle. Iceman isn't a villain. Furthermore, when you stop molecular movement entirely, the molecules incapable of receiving commands (like "heal"😉 if you keep them in a persistently frozen state. Bobby could keep Superman's molecules stopped forever...or long enough to turn into a giant fist and smash him in half. Unfreeze = dead Superman.
So it seems that we're all in agreement on every point, and if you analyze the points then I don't see how anyone can't agree that Iceman, if not the overwhelmingly obvious choice, is at least a solid favorite and stands a better chance against Superman than vice-versa.
That's it...those are my points summarized. Anything else is just circular. Either you agree with it or you don't, but there isn't much more to it than that. So it's my last post on the matter. I'll let x, avalon and/or whirly get the last word.
very nicely put! 👆
Dude, when in this thread did we agree that Supermans internal parts were ... manipulate-able, if it was DARKSEID. .... A GOD !!! Would have manipulated it and vanish it from freakin existence...
Did you guys ever think bout VAPORIZING IceMan, or bringing him into a vacum-space and then vaporizing......... every substance INCLUDING H20 has a boiling and vaporizing point,
H20 vaporizing is about pass 100 Celcius.... Supez heat vision is as hot as the SUN'S FREAKIN SURFACE !!
Magneto can manipulate Metal even Admantium, but can he manipulate Juggs helmet NO !!!!
Same goes to Bobby + water manipulation VS Supez + ForceField + Kryptonian internal organ + Exposure to Yellow Star + Heat Vision !! = All washed-up water-manipulating PUNK !!
Originally posted by ImmortalOne
Dude, when in this thread did we agree that Supermans internal parts were ... manipulate-able, if it was DARKSEID. .... A GOD !!! Would have manipulated it and vanish it from freakin existence...Did you guys ever think bout VAPORIZING IceMan, or bringing him into a vacum-space and then vaporizing......... every substance INCLUDING H20 has a boiling and vaporizing point,
H20 vaporizing is about pass 100 Celcius.... Supez heat vision is as hot as the SUN'S FREAKIN SURFACE !!
Magneto can manipulate Metal even Admantium, but can he manipulate Juggs helmet NO !!!!
Same goes to Bobby + water manipulation VS Supez + ForceField + Kryptonian internal organ + Exposure to Yellow Star + Heat Vision !! = All washed-up water-manipulating PUNK !!
See, that's what happens when people don't read all the posts on a thread. You miss lessons like, "Bobby can exist as water vapor, so getting vaporized means nada to him" and "we DID agree that Superman's internals were manipulable because they were by no less than three opponents - NONE of whom were Darkseid, who could also manipulate Superman's molecules IF he could hit him with the type of Omega Beams that would allow him to do that".
This thread is so done. Where's my fork?