Iceman (full potential) vs. Superman

Originally posted by Vanlore
However Superman is not as fast as Iceman once he is without form and seeking moisture to posses.

Superman has been shown by scans to be hurt by indirect manipulation of his molecules being slowed. And he recovered from it really fast. If he has been shown to be hurt that much.. by indirect manipulation than direct manipulation from someone who has stop elders and celestial beings via direct stimulation by logic would effect him way more.

What is this based off, what bases is there assuming supes is not as fast as bobby. What indication do we have that supes would not be able to blanket bobby yet somehow all of iceman's offense will suddenly connect on clark lol.

Originally posted by Makky
So the chrono scan means nothing I pressume, neither does supes speed or the fact that he blanket bobby in HV. I can play the game of overlooking feats too, and so far im not convinced bobby even has the reflexes to tract clark let alone freeze him.

Use HV it will make Iceman way faster than sups once he is looking for some superman fluid to posses...

However Superman is not as fast as Iceman once he is without form and seeking moisture to posses.

Superman has been shown by scans to be hurt by indirect manipulation of his molecules being slowed. And he recovered from it really fast. If he has been shown to be hurt that much.. by indirect manipulation than direct manipulation from someone who has stop elders and celestial beings via direct stimulation by logic would effect him way more.

Originally posted by Vanlore
Use HV it will make Iceman way faster than sups once he is looking for some superman fluid to posses...

However Superman is not as fast as Iceman once he is without form and seeking moisture to posses.

Superman has been shown by scans to be hurt by indirect manipulation of his molecules being slowed. And he recovered from it really fast. If he has been shown to be hurt that much.. by indirect manipulation than direct manipulation from someone who has stop elders and celestial beings via direct stimulation by logic would effect him way more.

Again nothing more then heavy speculation, why would being ionized in heat greater then the sun not effect bobby and why would this mean he is suddenly faster then clark lol.

Originally posted by LDHZenkai
Iceman at full potential is supposed to have control over atomic structure not molecular. And his hv has to be strong enough to cut his hair otherwise he would be a long bearded jesus looking guy. His heat vision is supposed to be as hot as the surface of the sun, but it gets changed to be as hot as needed. Either way how would he even see Iceman to hit him? This has already been argued in the thread. If iceman is in gas form you can't see him. he looks just like the rest of the h2o in the air.

So u just admitted full potential bobby has supposed abilites which in other words mean speculation. Supes HV is unquantifiable so yes it is at hot as needed, full power bobby is practically unquantifable so why even bring in what"he should be able to do".

Originally posted by Makky
So the chrono scan means nothing I pressume, neither does supes speed or the fact that he blanket bobby in HV. I can play the game of overlooking feats too, and so far im not convinced bobby even has the reflexes to tract clark let alone freeze him.

Originally posted by LDHZenkai
Iceman at full potential is supposed to have control over atomic structure not molecular. And his hv has to be strong enough to cut his hair otherwise he would be a long bearded jesus looking guy. His heat vision is supposed to be as hot as the surface of the sun, but it gets changed to be as hot as needed. Either way how would he even see Iceman to hit him? This has already been argued in the thread. If iceman is in gas form you can't see him. he looks just like the rest of the h2o in the air.

Prove that Iceman can survive as mere atoms or has control over his atomic structure. Because that would mean he can transmuted his body to adamantium and have Surfer like powers.
Iirc It is mentioned that Superman's HV is hotter than the world's most powerful laser (which is mentioned to be much hotter than the Sun). Superman can control the temp of his HV. He always holds back that is why his HV seems to suck some of the time. Just don't let Superman be bloodlusted though.

Originally posted by LDHZenkai
He nullified the strangers heat vision and then froze him from the inside out. Isn't the stranger more powerful than superman? And you can't heat vision iceman. he stops molecular motion to achieve his cooling effect. Even if the HV idea would work how would superman be able to see iceman when he is in gas form? It is impossible. When he is in gas form he isn't visible....he looks like the rest of the ambient moisture in the atmosphere. And he can use his full power set while in that form. So, bobby just waits in gas form....then completely freezes superman solid. No one has provided an explanation of how superman could beat that. So until they do we'll have to agree to disagree.

Well for starters, im fairly certain supes can see gas and even ambient energy or moisture(gotta check on it though). Supes also has excellent matter resistence and has resisted transmutation from a skyfather deity. Most importantly, supes has the massive speed advantage and thought processing. Supes HV isn't just heat either, he has been shown to tune and alter the blast into different frequencies of energy. Besides all of that supes has already shown full chrono suspecion is virtually useless, freezing supes is near impossibility at least someone on bobby's level.

Originally posted by Makky
Well for starters, im fairly certain supes can see gas and even ambient energy or moisture(gotta check on it though). Supes also has excellent matter resistence and has resisted transmutation from a skyfather deity. Most importantly, supes has the massive speed advantage and thought processing. Supes HV isn't just heat either, he has been shown to tune and alter the blast into different frequencies of energy. Besides all of that supes has already shown full chrono suspecion is virtually useless, freezing supes is near impossibility at least someone on bobby's level.

You must have not read anything that's been posted before. Or at least not believed it...or the scans. Oh well.

Originally posted by h1a8
Prove that Iceman can survive as mere atoms or has control over his atomic structure. Because that would mean he can transmuted his body to adamantium and have Surfer like powers.
Iirc It is mentioned that Superman's HV is hotter than the world's most powerful laser (which is mentioned to be much hotter than the Sun). Superman can control the temp of his HV. He always holds back that is why his HV seems to suck some of the time. Just don't let Superman be bloodlusted though.

The upper known limit of his HV is unquantifable(like hulks strength)and really seems to come down to the convinience of the plot. Although as I pointed out, supes HV is not just simply heat but can be tuned into different frequencies of energy. I say supes blankets bobby at a molecular leve(x-ray vision+HV combo)and causes a internal combustion.

Originally posted by LDHZenkai
You must have not read anything that's been posted before. Or at least not believed it...or the scans. Oh well.

I've seen the scans, im just trying to be objective and not overlook feats. I get bobby's powers, i get his scans and I've seen the respect thread. I've also seen supes resistence to transmutation and personally I dont think bobby is good enough to do something to clark that not even a skyfather deity could accomplish.

Originally posted by LDHZenkai
Check the Iceman respect thread. There's scans where it shows he could potentially be everywhere all at once. And as far as superman being able to withstand the freezing cold of space without dying...
celestial ships can probably withstand colder temps than superman i would imagine...and he freezes them completely.

I've seen the respect thread. He froze the inside of the ship right?
The scan didn't say that he can be everywhere all at once. It says that he felt he was apart of everything. My conscience lies in my brain yet I can control my arms, legs, etc. This doesn't mean my conscience is in my feet now does it. Now I take his statement as hyperbole just like Spider-man saying that Sentry stalemated Galactus. Without the actual feat then it is void.

Originally posted by Makky
Again nothing more then heavy speculation, why would being ionized in heat greater then the sun not effect bobby and why would this mean he is suddenly faster then clark lol.

The energy for the state changes are also psionic. Bobby wills them to vibrate or slow down, and they do so. It's not a natural occurrence, which is where you're getting stuck. The catalyst is a command, not environmental. He does not have to catch superman or be super fast...

Bobby's consciousness issues commands from the psionic plane, the way Sandman or Electro or any other elemental or disembodied superbeing does and...that's really all there is to it.

A physical brain is not required to have a consciousness according to psionics. It's just necessary for controlling the human body. All forms of consciousness are housed on the Astral Plane, and all commands are issued from there through the brain as a proxy - for most people. But for psionics of various kinds, they're able to essentially "bypass the middleman" and directly communicate to and from the Astral Plane. In that case, a physical brain is unnecessary - and that's been shown many times by people such as the Shadow King, or Xavier when his physical body died and existed solely on the Astral Plane. Bobby is classified as a psionic - so a physical brain is unnecessary for communicating with the physical world from the astral plane, where his consciousness is stored. So again, you're questioning from an incorrect pretext. I appreciate the effort, though.

Originally posted by Vanlore
Use HV it will make Iceman way faster than sups once he is looking for some superman fluid to posses...

However Superman is not as fast as Iceman once he is without form and seeking moisture to posses.

Superman has been shown by scans to be hurt by indirect manipulation of his molecules being slowed. And he recovered from it really fast. If he has been shown to be hurt that much.. by indirect manipulation than direct manipulation from someone who has stop elders and celestial beings via direct stimulation by logic would effect him way more.

Originally posted by h1a8
I've seen the respect thread. He froze the inside of the ship right?
The scan didn't say that he can be everywhere all at once. It says that he felt he was apart of everything. My conscience lies in my brain yet I can control my arms, legs, etc. This doesn't mean my conscience is in my feet now does it. Now I take his statement as hyperbole just like Spider-man saying that Sentry stalemated Galactus. Without the actual feat then it is void.

Originally posted by Vanlore
However Superman is not as fast as Iceman once he is without form and seeking moisture to posses.

Superman has been shown by scans to be hurt by indirect manipulation of his molecules being slowed. And he recovered from it really fast. If he has been shown to be hurt that much.. by indirect manipulation than direct manipulation from someone who has stop elders and celestial beings via direct stimulation by logic would effect him way more.

Originally posted by h1a8
Superman's fluid is also resistant to its molecules being slowed. Otherwise he would freeze in deep space. He doesn't feel the slightest discomfort.

dc writing usually lacks numbers, quantifiers, or naming hard limits, so just because it was ASSUMED superman was frozen at 0k doesn't mean he was.

for example, if superman can waltz through deep space's approximately 2k temperature unharmed, the chrono thingy that kid did to him (which is ASSUMED to be two degrees lower than space) shouldn't have had the effect it did. unless superman has a severe drop off in durability. looks like either inconsistency, or just plain superman going through space without the writer knowing space is that cold.

Originally posted by h1a8
He doesn't need to be since Iceman doesn't start in this form. I still believe that Iceman can be koed, killed by atomization, and bfr into space while in solid form.
His molecules were actually stopped, not slowed. This sounds crazy but its comics. But characters have there high feats and low ones. Superman was seemingly koed by an exploding gas station yet withstood a nuclear bomb like it was nothing. Superman has indeed resisted transmutation along with the attempted slowing of his molecules before.

Bobby's consciousness issues commands from the psionic plane hello...

And no the spin of the particles did not stop.. LOL, thats a flat out lie or you dont understand what your looking at.

Also yall still talking about how much cold he can take is irrelevant again as its just a side effect from lack of energy in his envierment and nothing to do with psionic control over the spin of his particals.

Originally posted by Vanlore
The energy for the state changes are also psionic. Bobby wills them to vibrate or slow down, and they do so. It's not a natural occurrence, which is where you're getting stuck. The catalyst is a command, not environmental. He does not have to catch superman or be super fast...

Bobby's consciousness issues commands from the psionic plane, the way Sandman or Electro or any other elemental or disembodied superbeing does and...that's really all there is to it.

A physical brain is not required to have a consciousness according to psionics. It's just necessary for controlling the human body. All forms of consciousness are housed on the Astral Plane, and all commands are issued from there through the brain as a proxy - for most people. But for psionics of various kinds, they're able to essentially "bypass the middleman" and directly communicate to and from the Astral Plane. In that case, a physical brain is unnecessary - and that's been shown many times by people such as the Shadow King, or Xavier when his physical body died and existed solely on the Astral Plane. Bobby is classified as a psionic - so a physical brain is unnecessary for communicating with the physical world from the astral plane, where his consciousness is stored. So again, you're questioning from an incorrect pretext. I appreciate the effort, though.

I got all of that back when bobby was finally getting his push, but by ur assertion a full powered bobby would be able to catch runner and even a full bull rushing SS lol. So while I appreciate you're interpretation I feel you miss the mark, Besides in order for any of this to apply in this fight we would have to assume clark has terrible immunity to transmutation which clearly is not the case. Bobby can communicate his will psionically which everyone knows, its lesson 1 when dealing with elementals. Thing is clark has handled and already defeated elementals, bobby doesnt pose as anything clark hasn't seen or delt with before.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
your assuming dc bases their feats on physics/real science, which seems to be what they ignore most of the time.

dc writing usually lacks numbers, quantifiers, or naming hard limits, so just because it was ASSUMED superman was frozen at 0k doesn't mean he was.

for example, if superman can waltz through deep space's approximately 2k temperature unharmed, the chrono thingy that kid did to him (which is ASSUMED to be two degrees lower than space) shouldn't have had the effect it did. unless superman has a severe drop off in durability. looks like either inconsistency, or just plain superman going through space without the writer knowing space is that cold.

I think absolute zero is the opposite twin of Infinite. Theoretically if anything reaches absolute zero the universe is in danger of being destroyed. So I feel if someone can survive a infinite zero attack then certainly a finite non zero attack isn't going to do anything.

You may be right about the writers not knowing how cold space is.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
your assuming dc bases their feats on physics/real science, which seems to be what they ignore most of the time.

dc writing usually lacks numbers, quantifiers, or naming hard limits, so just because it was ASSUMED superman was frozen at 0k doesn't mean he was.

for example, if superman can waltz through deep space's approximately 2k temperature unharmed, the chrono thingy that kid did to him (which is ASSUMED to be two degrees lower than space) shouldn't have had the effect it did. unless superman has a severe drop off in durability. looks like either inconsistency, or just plain superman going through space without the writer knowing space is that cold.

Which comics ever based anything off real science or physics lol. Didn't wonderman travel in earths orbit at ligh speed, and didn't WWH's and bob's fight only destroy half a city even though they have been shown to have striking power far superior to that lol. Anyhow with DC chars, nothing is unqantifiable because everything is always unknown. There isn't a finite level with them which is why someone like supes can always manage to gather"that lil bit of strength he never he had"to save the day.

Originally posted by Makky
I got all of that back when bobby was finally getting his push, but by ur assertion a full powered bobby would be able to catch runner and even a full bull rushing SS lol. So while I appreciate you're interpretation I feel you miss the mark, Besides in order for any of this to apply in this fight we would have to assume clark has terrible immunity to transmutation which clearly is not the case. Bobby can communicate his will psionically which everyone knows, its lesson 1 when dealing with elementals. Thing is clark has handled and already defeated elementals, bobby doesnt pose as anything clark hasn't seen or delt with before.

Oo transmutation has nothing to do with it. Also manipulation at those type of levels has almost a 100% success rate in the effecting superman in the comics...

A an enraged marshan fased him threw a table once and it hurt him bad lol. The scans have been posted already in this thread it you want to dig it up...

And your scans of him in ice....The fact that indirect stimulation hurt him means direct stimulation hurts him more.. Sense Icemans direct manipulation stop god like beings that powers ARE Manipulation of matter and energy...