Iceman (full potential) vs. Superman

Originally posted by Vanlore
Superman' has been invasively permeated by pretty much anybody who has psionic command of molecules - like the aforementioned Manchester Black and Dr. Polaris.

Guys who were easily beaten when Supes actually fought back. I hope you have better examples...

Originally posted by Vanlore
How does a long history with 100% success rate of superman being spanked by way less powerful psionic molecular manipulation not apply ?

You'd have to have an instant where he was spanked. Better yet, proof instead of speculation in iceman's case would be great...

Originally posted by Vanlore
I will use your own logic you just regurgitated. Not like it matters since the Iceman being debated here doesn't exist.

Great. So you don't have a case. Superman wins by default. 🙂

Originally posted by Vanlore
Also give me names of people that use pisonic molecular control that superman has willed off.. I call bull on that..... Names...

Dominus, Blaze, Darkseid, guys way out of even "full potential" iceman's range in power levels.

Originally posted by Vanlore
I have listed names of way less powerful people hurting sups bad...

While Supes fought back? Haven't seen that... a momentary pause maybe at most while he tried to reason or just held back..LOL

Originally posted by Vanlore
Ok so superman is going to freeze Iceman? lol...

Never claimed that... Just showcasing a freezing feat that's just as good or superior to Icemans.

Originally posted by Allankles
Except Iceman doesn't have Psychokinesis, he is not a psychokinetic like Manchster Black.

He doesn't control pure kinetic energy, but he does reduce thermal energy via water molecules. You Iceman backers seem to lose sight of that fact. That's why anything he does, result i frozen water.

If he manipulated anything but moisture he wouldn't be called Iceman or have the canonic ability to manipulate ice or thermal energy via water molecules.

A dose hydrolysis, some counter vibrations to dispell his psionic state and Supes takes care of business. In all areas (even the metaphysical) Supes is superior.

Thermal energy per particle is also called the average translational kinetic energy possessed by free particles given by equipartition of energy.

Thermal energy is the difference between the internal energy of an object and the amount that it would have at absolute zero. It includes the quantity of kinetic energy due to the motion of the internal particles of an object, and is increased by heating and reduced by cooling.

His power is to manipulate (Slow Down or possibly stop) Internal energy which is the total of the kinetic energy due to the motion of molecules (translational, rotational, vibrational) and the potential energy associated with the vibrational and electric energy of atoms within molecules or crystals. It includes the energy in all of the chemical bonds, and the energy of the free, conduction electrons in metals.

All forms of consciousness are housed on the Astral Plane, and all commands are issued from there through the brain as a proxy - for most people. But for psionics of various kinds, they're able to essentially "bypass the middleman" and directly communicate to and from the Astral Plane. In that case, a physical brain is unnecessary - and that's been shown many times by people such as the Shadow King, or Xavier when his physical body died and existed solely on the Astral Plane. Bobby is classified as a psionic - so a physical brain is unnecessary for communicating with the physical world from the astral plane, where his consciousness is stored. So again, you're questioning from an incorrect pretext.

Originally posted by Vanlore
The Dominus guy your talking about had powers of a different sort but could do the matter thing granted yes... BUT the hole mind thing was about mind control and thats different than commanding molecules....

And Torquasm-vo It is basically a means of focusing ones mental discipline to help fight adverse effects such as mental domination. Thats why it was used on Dominus...

Also Manchester Black and others have done him in easily as well.....

🙄

Originally posted by Avlon
Guys who were easily beaten when Supes actually fought back. I hope you have better examples...

Guys that have molecular control over there selfs and we are talking about psionic molecular control..

Iceman has froze celestial ships and has froze the stranger...

Originally posted by Avlon Never claimed that... Just showcasing a freezing feat that's just as good or superior to Icemans. [/B]

Umm mmkay that has nothing to do with icemans power... Freeze more area via indirect stimuli does not mean greater than psionic direct control...

Originally posted by Vanlore

Iceman has froze celestial ships and has froze the stranger...

Freezing celestial ships means (you guessed it) there was moisture there for him to manipulate. More importantly Supes has psionc control over his own molecules and his non-particle radiation.

Let's see how Iceman's powers hold up to non-particle radiation that destroys the very molecules he needs to affect thermal energy.

Originally posted by Allankles
Freezing celestial ships means (you guessed it) there was moisture there for him to manipulate. More importantly Supes has psionc control over his own molecules and his non-particle radiation.

Let's see how Iceman's powers hold up to non-particle radiation that destroys the very molecules he needs to affect thermal energy.

Guess what superman has inside of him (you guessed it) there is moisture in him to control. More importantly supermans psionic control over his own molecules did nothing when Manchester or polar used there abilitys to harm him..

So superman is going to kill himself by destroying his own molecules. As I have shown it is illogical to start with the assumption that he uses something other than h20 for hydration.

Yes anything can happen in comics but we dont jump logic and conclude something ludicrous like his blood is chocolate milk.. We still use logic to the most extent in can be used in debating.

Logic says if there is anything in his body that would harm a human than it would harm superman the times he lost his powers on earth... Or we could go with your he has chocolate milk for blood.. Do you see what I'm saying... You want to only apply logic when it suits you and ignore it when it does not...

If Clark uses water for moisture when he does not have his powers. The next logical step would be to assume when he has his powers his body retains his h20 or makes its own.. It would be illogical to start out with the assumption that its not h20 when he already uses it to hydrate himself...

Originally posted by Vanlore

Iceman has froze the stranger...

In terms of PIS and horrible writing, Thats right up there with, Rulk beating thor with his own hammer,Juggernaut knockin out the stranger Rulk knocking out a wacther and Galactus sayin granmaster was his equal.

Also when Iceman "froze" the stranger, did the stranger break out or stay frozen?

Originally posted by Allankles
Freezing celestial ships means (you guessed it) there was moisture there for him to manipulate. More importantly Supes has psionc control over his own molecules and his non-particle radiation.

Let's see how Iceman's powers hold up to non-particle radiation that destroys the very molecules he needs to affect thermal energy.

I'll admit it is Ultimate, but 616 Iceman has frozen heat vision/energy beams before plus other factors I can't get into at the moment due to lack of time.

However, notice in the scan he talks about what things he might possibly do with "slowing" down things. (Note of reference, this is a future Bishop who ALREADY knows what he can do, but wants Bobby to think about it)
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/6279/uxm8007c449c1zo5.jpg

^ I agree that X-men Forever might be an indication of fullpower Iceman... so long as you don't assert that the story is an indication of current Iceman's abilities. 😖hifty:

Originally posted by Allankles
H2O is an ideal solvent because of its high specific heat etc etc but it obviously doesn't have to be the solvent in KalEl's blood, his species evolved differently.

Originally posted by Naija boy
In terms of PIS and horrible writing, Thats right up there with, Rulk beating thor with his own hammer,Juggernaut knockin out the stranger Rulk knocking out a wacther and Galactus sayin granmaster was his equal.

Also when Iceman "froze" the stranger, did the stranger break out or stay frozen?

No its not PIS.. They have been saying in the comics way before that about his unlimited or godly potential... And he has done other powerful things as well.. You ack like it is some kinda secret or it just bam happend but no.. People have known about Icemans potential for along time now.. Just you dont like it..

Originally posted by Vanlore
No its not PIS.. They have been saying in the comics way before that about his unlimited or godly potential... And he has done other powerful things as well.. You ack like it is some kinda secret or it just bam happend but no.. People have known about Icemans potential for along time now.. Just you dont like it..

No it doesnt matter what they said about his full potential, it is an extremely low feat for the Stranger. He is seemingly always jobbed out in X-books as seen where he was knocked on his ass by juggernaut. Also my question wasnt answered, did stranger break out? or was he completely incapacitated?

P.S i dont even care about this thread, just commenting on a clear case of PIS.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ I agree that X-men Forever might be an indication of fullpower Iceman... so long as you don't assert that the story is an indication of current Iceman's abilities. 😖hifty:
I find it amusing that this has to be the rationale behind Superman winning this thread: Superman is not made of water. dur

Yeah because it would only be rational to conclude his blood is chocolate milk and when he has lost his powers he does not need to drink water.. And use pure conjecture rather than logic in favor of sups cuz he is conjecture man..

🙄

Originally posted by Naija boy
No it doesnt matter what they said about his full potential, it is an extremely low feat for the Stranger. He is seemingly always jobbed out in X-books as seen where he was knocked on his ass by juggernaut. Also my question wasnt answered, did stranger break out? or was he completely incapacitated?

P.S i dont even care about this thread, just commenting on a clear case of PIS.

Yes it does matter what they said about Iceman... They have been hinting and building it up for years.. Just because you dont like it does not make it piss... Its not a low feat... You just either dont like his style or lack understanding in physics... He is basically like any other being who manipulates matter.. Just differant particlas..

Marvel has been telling peeople for years about Icemans godlynes.. All the characters got upgrated so its only fair Iceman gets his... I dont hear you complain about wovlerine going from what he was to surviing nuclear expllosions.. I mean I could go on..

I'm looking for the scans to link them again.. they was posted somewhere in here.. Oo

I'm still not getting the argument for bobby, supes has complete psionic control over his energy and we have already seen him resist full molecular manipulation from far more powerful foes. The only thing that hasn't been proven is if Bobby could still function if his phyiscal solid body gets destroyed. Beyond that every debate for this "full potential"bobby is nothing more then speculation,unproven theories with no canon basis.

Originally posted by Vanlore
Yeah because it would only be rational to conclude his blood is chocolate milk and when he has lost his powers he does not need to drink water.. And use pure conjecture rather than logic in favor of sups cuz he is conjecture man..

🙄

Originally posted by Makky
I'm still not getting the argument for bobby, supes has complete psionic control over his energy and we have already seen him resist full molecular manipulation from far more powerful foes. The only thing that hasn't been proven is if Bobby could still function if his phyiscal solid body gets destroyed. Beyond that every debate for this "full potential"bobby is nothing more then speculation,unproven theories with no canon basis.

😆 complete control and resit molecular manipulation lol

Like he did when Manchester gave Superman the equivalent of a stroke, by telekinetically pinching blood vessels in Superman's brain. 🙄

Or polar put him down easy ..

No he has shown weakness to molecular manipulation.. Just because you come in and say it does not make it true.. If you dont have scans then tell me of these great feats.... Not molecular control but psionic molecular control...

Originally posted by Vanlore
Yes it does matter what they said about Iceman... They have been hinting and building it up for years.. Just because you dont like it does not make it piss... Its not a low feat... You just either dont like his style or lack understanding in physics... He is basically like any other being who manipulates matter.. Just differant particlas..

Marvel has been telling peeople for years about Icemans godlynes.. All the characters got upgreated so its only fair Iceman gets his... I dont hear you complain about wovlerine going from what he was to surviing nuclear expllosions.. I mean I could go on..

I'm looking for the scans to link them again.. they was posted somewhere in here.. Oo

What are u talking about? Lack understanding of physics?lol. If u knew who the stranger was ud know that he doesnt even need to exist in bodily form. He can become pure energy and do basically anything he wants since he is a cosmic level being. As u said iceman has been upraded to a being that manipulates matter. A simple matter manipulator should NEVER be able to defeat the stranger. His "loss" to iceman(if thats what actcually happened) indicates that hed gget demolished by far superior matter manipulators such as Silver surfer,Sersi etc. Stranger power level being demoted from nigh omnipotent being who converses with Living Tribunal to being who struggles against mutants and matter manipulators is PIS at its highest level. It seems he falls prey to this in Xmen related Books especially.

I have no problem with icemans upgrade or anyones upgrade for that matter. And hence do not deny he has been upgraded. I am referring to that particular instance as its quite clear that the person writing that comic forgot about the strangers status as a cosmic being who should have with a thought been able to kill all the Xmen. End of story.

Originally posted by Vanlore
😆 complete control and resit molecular manipulation lol

Like he did when Manchester gave Superman the equivalent of a stroke, by telekinetically pinching blood vessels in Superman's brain. 🙄

Or polar put him down easy ..

No he has shown weakness to molecular manipulation.. Just because you come in and say it does not make it true.. If you dont have scans then tell me of these great feats.... Not molecular control but psionic molecular control...

So bobby suddenly has the same abilties as manchest and polaris now, ur adding more and more on him every page. You'v clearly already ignored the contradicatory evidence agaisnt you're argument but ur still protracted the same argument even though its already been debunked. Untill u have some scans of this "full power bobby", a full ionzation on bobby is not not possible but damn right logical.

Originally posted by Naija boy
What are u talking about? Lack understanding of physics?lol. If u knew who the stranger was ud know that he doesnt even need to exist in bodily form. He can become pure energy and do basically anything he wants since he is a cosmic level being. As u said iceman has been upraded to a being that manipulates matter. A simple matter manipulator should NEVER be able to defeat the stranger. His "loss" to iceman(if thats what actcually happened) indicates that hed gget demolished by far superior matter manipulators such as Silver surfer,Sersi etc. Stranger power level being demoted from nigh omnipotent being who converses with Living Tribunal to being who struggles against mutants and matter manipulators is PIS at its highest level. It seems he falls prey to this in Xmen related Books especially.

I have no problem with icemans upgrade or anyones upgrade for that matter. And hence do not deny he has been upgraded. I am referring to that particular instance as its quite clear that the person writing that comic forgot about the strangers status as a cosmic being who should have with a thought been able to kill all the Xmen. End of story.

Yes He can become pure energy and do basically anything he wants since he is a cosmic level being.

But guess what... When there is 0 kinetic energy there is no energy at all..... Nothing.. Not even light...

Originally posted by Makky
So bobby suddenly has the same abilties as manchest and polaris now, ur adding more and more on him every page. You'v clearly already ignored the contradicatory evidence agaisnt you're argument but ur still protracted the same argument even though its already been debunked. Untill u have some scans of this "full power bobby", a full ionzation on bobby is not not possible but damn right logical.

O no I didnt say they were the same or on the same level.. See bobby has taken on celestial ships and the stranger.. Just a wee bit out of there league 😉

By the way dude you speak in hyberbole like you talk about arguments and ect but dont point none out or make a statement yourself to counter me.... I have read every post in this thread so what would you like to debate with me that you state I have not refuted?