Originally posted by carver9superman has been shown to go light speed several times though...
HHHHUHH, I dont even know why this is still being debated about superman going light speed when there have been 3 writers along with supermans current writer saying that superman cant achieve light speed unless he's in hyper space.
Originally posted by carver9why would he travel light speed on earth, that would be pointles seeing as he can get anywhere near instantly by going several times the speed of sound, going over light speed on earth would just cause unnecessary damage.
Show me him going light speed on earth because the highest speed that has been quoted for post crisis superman is 2000 mps.
none of this is the point though, the point is superman can control his molecules
Originally posted by Trackz
why would he travel light speed on earth, that would be pointles seeing as he can get anywhere near instantly by going several times the speed of sound, going over light speed on earth would just cause unnecessary damage.none of this is the point though, the point is superman can control his molecules
Well many have actually went damn close to that speed, hell captain marvel went light speed on earth, black adam went mach 500, along with others. Thats no excuse. If you dont have the feats saying or showing that you go this fast, you shouldnt give it to a character. People say that Sentry can achieve light speed but he dont have the feats proving this besides space flight.
Originally posted by carver9well theres the feat, flash has stated in order to phase through objects you need to vibrate your molecules at light speed, and superman has done it. I really could care less if you don't believe superman can go lightspeed, the point is he can control his molecules. Iceman can't stop them from moving.
Well many have actually went damn close to that speed, hell captain marvel went light speed on earth, black adam went mach 500, along with others. Thats no excuse. If you dont have the feats saying or showing that you go this fast, you shouldnt give it to a character. People say that Sentry can achieve light speed but he dont have the feats proving this besides space flight.
Originally posted by Trackz
well theres the feat, flash has stated in order to phase through objects you need to vibrate your molecules at light speed, and superman has done it. I really could care less if you don't believe superman can go lightspeed, the point is he can control his molecules. Iceman can't stop them from moving.
I dont think ice man is winning this fight and I dont think that superman is winning it either. I honestly think this is a stalemat.
Originally posted by Trackz
well theres the feat, flash has stated in order to phase through objects you need to vibrate your molecules at light speed, and superman has done it. I really could care less if you don't believe superman can go lightspeed, the point is he can control his molecules. Iceman can't stop them from moving.
Originally posted by LDHZenkaithats how the technique is stated to work...its never been stated as just "shaking super fast"
He wasn't controlling his molecules he was just shaking his body back and forth super fast b/c he's super fast. He didn't show any conscious control over each molecule like everyone keeps saying. If he has done that post a scan and let me see it. We've already posted scans showing iceman can do it, yet I haven't seen a single one showing superman can.
Originally posted by Trackz
thats how the technique is stated to work...its never been stated as just "shaking super fast"
Originally posted by LDHZenkai
It never says he moves his molecules around conciously to do this and that. It says he always vibrates his molecules. Theres a different in being able to vibrate something and being able to control yourself precisely at a molecular level. And either way it doesn't matter b/c molecules don't move when they're at absolute zero which has been the basis of the argument for the last 100 pages.
I might add, that Flash has greater molecular control than Superman does, and he has "stolen" the speed from Superman several times...outside of Superman's ability to counter.
If Flash has better control over Supermans own cellular kinetic energy than Superman himself does, I'd bet a FP Iceman would > Superman in kinetic temperature control over Superman's own cells too. Superman has very poor feats generating kinetic heat outside of his HV, when you compare them to the levels of control that even a non-Omega Bobby has clearly shown.
The question is still how long Bobby could maintain this...as after freezing Supes to abs zero, he still has to fight Superman's kinetic ability to counter the freezing effect....so he would have to be able to maintain that state for a sufficient amount of time.
Originally posted by horrorwolf
I might add, that Flash has greater molecular control than Superman does, and he has "stolen" the speed from Superman several times...outside of Superman's ability to counter.If Flash has better control over Supermans cellular kinetic activity than Superman does, I'd bet a FP Iceman would > Superman in kinetic temperature control over Superman's cells.
The question is still how long Bobby could maintain this...as after freezing Supes to abs zero, he still has to fight Superman, kinetic ability to counter the freezing effect....so he would have to be able to maintain that state for a sufficient amount of time.
I dont know why people are comparing flash to superman anyway. Flash admitted he was fighting at light speed in this fight and superman was a statue the entire time him and zoom were fighting.
Originally posted by FieryBalrog
what he means is, how is Superman going to tell which water vapor is just regular ol' water vapor and which water vapor is secretly the disembodied consciousness of iceman? Its not like the molecules have little signs on them saying "Property of Iceman".Besides, the water that makes up iceman's body isn't anything special, he can reform out of any water. Lets say he disperses into water vapor. He now exists among all the water vapor in the vicinity, he can even exist in the water inside Superman's cells.
I agree with this but i can not say superman would get beaten but for this fact i can not say ice man would lose either...i think its most likely a draw because i don't see them hurting each other
Originally posted by horrorwolfthe means by which they do it is entirely different, flash takes the kinetic energy onto himself, iceman is attempting to make the actual molecules permanently stop, flash needed a powerboost before he could do something like this to someone.
I might add, that Flash has greater molecular control than Superman does, and he has "stolen" the speed from Superman several times...outside of Superman's ability to counter.If Flash has better control over Supermans cellular kinetic activity than Superman does, I'd bet a FP Iceman would > Superman in kinetic temperature control over Superman's own cells too.
The question is still how long Bobby could maintain this...as after freezing Supes to abs zero, he still has to fight Superman's kinetic ability to counter the freezing effect....so he would have to be able to maintain that state for a sufficient amount of time.
absolute zero is when its so cold that molecules stop, if superman has been subjected to 2-3 degrees above absolute zero and been able to perform at optimum efficiency iceman wouldn't at all be able to freeze superman seeing as lowering his body two or three degrees would only cause the molecules to slow, not stop iceman can't become cold enough to freeze superman, nothing can unless it actually goes below absolute zero.
Originally posted by Trackz
the means by which they do it is entirely different, flash takes the kinetic energy onto himself, iceman is attempting to make the actual molecules permanently stop, flash needed a powerboost before he could do something like this to someone.absolute zero is when its so cold that molecules stop, if superman has been subjected to 2-3 degrees above absolute zero and been able to perform at optimum efficiency iceman wouldn't at all be able to freeze superman seeing as lowering his body two or three degrees would only cause the molecules to slow, not stop iceman can't become cold enough to freeze superman, nothing can unless it actually goes below absolute zero.
Superman has been subjected to 2-3 degrees above only though outside forces. Bobby would do this to Superman on a molecular level, directly and internally through the very kinetic energies being generated inside of Superman's own cells. Totally different.
Originally posted by horrorwolfno, superman has been in space, where he has shown to be standing still for so long that a film of ice has gathered over him, in space nothing is freezing him on the outside, the only thing thats cooling are his molecules, in space they cool off to 2-3 degrees above absolute zero.
Superman has been subjected to 2-3 degrees above only though outside forces. Bobby would do this to Superman on a molecular level, directly and internally through the kinetic energies generated inside of Superman's own cells. Totally different.
Originally posted by Trackz
no, superman has been in space, where he has shown to be standing still for so long that a film of ice has gathered over him, in space nothing is freezing him on the outside, the only thing thats cooling are his molecules, in space they cool off to 2-3 degrees above absolute zero.
I think you are missing the point.
When in deep space, Superman's kinetic internal energies counteract any exterior temps. So the outside temps never penetrate his body.
An Omega Iceman could simply be focused on freezing Superman's internal kinetics only....stopping what protects his physical body from outside temps in the first place.
Originally posted by horrorwolfread back a couple of posts, there is no temperature in space, the only thing that make superman cold in space are his own molecules slowing down, however even at 3 degrees above absolute zero, he can still function perfectly.
I think you are missing the point.When in deep space, Superman's kinetic internal energies counteract the exterior temps.
An Omega Iceman could simply be focused on freezing Superman's internal kinetics only....stopping what protects his physical body from outside temps in the first place.
Originally posted by Trackz
read back a couple of posts, there is no temperature in space, the only thing that make superman cold in space are his own molecules slowing down, however even at 3 degrees above absolute zero, he can still function perfectly.
Again, my point is that Iceman would freeze Superman's internal kinetic energies directly. Effectively freezing him inside out.
Outer temps are irrelevant. If he does so at absolute zero..there will be no functions. The problem is that once at this point, they will be a fight for who has better control to maintain that state.
Superman fighting to generate cellular kinetic energy to restore heat and movement....Iceman countering to maintain absolute zero
Originally posted by Trackz
read back a couple of posts, there is no temperature in space, the only thing that make superman cold in space are his own molecules slowing down, however even at 3 degrees above absolute zero, he can still function perfectly.
Originally posted by horrorwolf
Again, my point is that Iceman would freeze Superman's internal kinetic energies directly. Effectively freezing him inside out.Outer temps are irrelevant. If he does so at absolute zero..there will be no functions. The problem is that once at this point, they will be a fight for who has better control to maintain that state.
even if you believe he can freeze superman,it takes iceman a lot of energy to do so, and in new york city there are plenty of outside sources to keep him slightly above absolute zero, that and the fact superman has shown that he can blast himself with internal heat vision, iceman would effectively tire himself out trying to do this and would succumb to exhaustion.
