Human Torch vs. Pyro

Originally posted by Metalmanx
I don't have time to counter (or at least attempt to) all of this right now. So I'll just answer the last question.

Marvel has never put Shadowcat or Nightcrawler in the same power level as the Hulk, but do you doubt they can beat him? 😕

That wasn't referring to the direct outcome of the fight but towards the comments that Pyro would be able to control HT's flames better than himself...HT has mega control of flames so it's going to be, as someone said earlier, a tug of war...and HT's power level has always been higher than Pyro, his control over fire(not his ability to shape it but the ability to will it under his control) is known to be of the highest echelon...while Pyro was unable to control Firestar's fire.

Also...Shadowcat probably couldn't beat Hulk...I don't know if her incapacitation attack while she is phased in someone would work...every bit of the Hulk is so durable that there is a good chance it wouldn't do much. Also Hulk's hand smashs can produce shockwaves that can mess up Shadowcat's equilibrum, even knocking her out. He has done this several times in the past to enemies he can't just punch out.

Don't know about Nightcrawler either...He'd have to hold on to Hulk long enough to teleport him very far...and I'm not sure how he could hurt him since he couldn't teleport him into something as Nightcrawler is transfered along with the other mass so with Hulk thrashing NC could easily be fused along with them into the mass...again Hulk is so durable I'm not even sure THAT would stop him. Hulk only needs one hit to KO NC.

Hulk is like ridiculously durable...it's..well...ridiculous.

Originally posted by XStreme
That wasn't referring to the direct outcome of the fight but towards the comments that Pyro would be able to control HT's flames better than himself...HT has mega control of flames so it's going to be, as someone said earlier, a tug of war...and HT's power level has always been higher than Pyro, his control over fire(not his ability to shape it but the ability to will it under his control) is known to be of the highest echelon...while Pyro was unable to control Firestar's fire.

Also...Shadowcat probably couldn't beat Hulk...I don't know if her incapacitation attack while she is phased in someone would work...every bit of the Hulk is so durable that there is a good chance it wouldn't do much. Also Hulk's hand smashs can produce shockwaves that can mess up Shadowcat's equilibrum, even knocking her out. He has done this several times in the past to enemies he can't just punch out.

Don't know about Nightcrawler either...He'd have to hold on to Hulk long enough to teleport him very far...and I'm not sure how he could hurt him since he couldn't teleport him into something as Nightcrawler is transfered along with the other mass so with Hulk thrashing NC could easily be fused along with them into the mass...again Hulk is so durable I'm not even sure THAT would stop him. Hulk only needs one hit to KO NC.

Hulk is like ridiculously durable...it's..well...ridiculous.

I respect your opinion, and you obviously know what you're talking about. However, I still disagree. Pyro's control over fire exceeds HT's in my opinion. Torch is good, Pyro is just better. Why couldn't he control Firestar's fire? I dunno. Low-showing perhaps? Point is, Pyro's been shown over his many years as a comic character to have the most delicate, most refined, most extreme control over fire tahn anyone else.

However, on a power scale, HT blows him out of the water. But again, power isn't what's going to win this fight.

By the way, I think both Shadowcat and Nightcrawler could easily take Hulk. Kitty can just phase the ground around Hulk. He becomes fused with the ground. Instant death. Nightcrawler (assuming he can teleport limbs off) can teleport his head off. Or he could teleport things into him, like a nuclear explosive or a gamma bomb inside of him.

I dont get why this is a fight at all. HT does not even need to flame on, isint he immune to flames in human form? He can just kick Pyros ass in h2h

Wouldn't Torch attacking Pyro be kinda like going into a fight with Magneto using weapons made soley out of metal?

not at all 😐

Originally posted by Metalmanx
I respect your opinion, and you obviously know what you're talking about. However, I still disagree. Pyro's control over fire exceeds HT's in my opinion. Torch is good, Pyro is just better. Why couldn't he control Firestar's fire? I dunno. Low-showing perhaps? Point is, Pyro's been shown over his many years as a comic character to have the most delicate, most refined, most extreme control over fire tahn anyone else.

However, on a power scale, HT blows him out of the water. But again, power isn't what's going to win this fight.

By the way, I think both Shadowcat and Nightcrawler could easily take Hulk. Kitty can just phase the ground around Hulk. He becomes fused with the ground. Instant death. Nightcrawler (assuming he can teleport limbs off) can teleport his head off. Or he could teleport things into him, like a nuclear explosive or a gamma bomb inside of him.

Since we can't really prove which one has better control just talking here then we can just agree to disagree there. But I still think HT would win even if Pyro controlled fire better...for a few key reasons:

1)Pyro has to see flame to control it...HT has no such restriction. This means that blinding Pyro could take out his ability to control fire completely.

2)HT is completely immune to fire even when he is not aflame even being able to absorb it...meaning he could stamp out Pyros fire as well as Pyro could stamp out his...it's not so much about power level as just stopping combustion.

3)HTs power include some control over things other than flames like some plasma qualities and heat energy itself

4)HT has years of experience on Pyro as well as facing tougher foes and being around a brain like Reed...I'm pretty sure that Johnny would be a better strategist in battle and could probably take Pyro out in a fist to fist too...

I've never seen Nightcrawler teleport parts of a person...I think it has to be the whole mass. His teleporting isn't as refined as many peoples. If he could do that to the Hulk, sure he could win.

I don't know that fusing Hulk to the ground would kill him. I'm really just not sure...should it in my opinion? Yes...would it in comics? NO idea, they make Hulk so uber powerful it's crazy....Also two phased objects can affect each other in Marvel it seems so Shadowcat would have to be super quick about so Hulk doesn't just throw her out of the ground...it really just matters how much of a Hulk fanboy the writer is. 🙂

Originally posted by XStreme
Since we can't really prove which one has better control just talking here then we can just agree to disagree there. But I still think HT would win even if Pyro controlled fire better...for a few key reasons:

1)Pyro has to see flame to control it...HT has no such restriction. This means that blinding Pyro could take out his ability to control fire completely.

When has Pyro ever shown this limitation? I'm not calling you a liar, I've just never seen it stated that Pyro has to see the flame to control it. Can you provide evidence of this? Wiki says that he "generally" needs to be able to see it, but I don't recall that ever being a factor in the comics.

Originally posted by XStreme
2)HT is completely immune to fire even when he is not aflame even being able to absorb it...meaning he could stamp out Pyros fire as well as Pyro could stamp out his...it's not so much about power level as just stopping combustion.

Thing is, if HT lit up at all, Pyro could take complete control of the flames. And, before HT could do anything, Pyro could manipulate the flames to physically tear HT apart.

Originally posted by XStreme
4)HT has years of experience on Pyro as well as facing tougher foes and being around a brain like Reed...I'm pretty sure that Johnny would be a better strategist in battle and could probably take Pyro out in a fist to fist too...

I'm not arguing at all that Pyro could defeat Johnny in hand-to-hand.

Originally posted by XStreme
I've never seen Nightcrawler teleport parts of a person...I think it has to be the whole mass. His teleporting isn't as refined as many peoples. If he could do that to the Hulk, sure he could win.

Nightcrawler teleported Deadpool's head off in AOA. I know it happened in AOA, but his power was the exact same then as it is now. I see no reason why he couldn't do it again.

Originally posted by XStreme
I don't know that fusing Hulk to the ground would kill him. I'm really just not sure...should it in my opinion? Yes...would it in comics? NO idea, they make Hulk so uber powerful it's crazy....Also two phased objects can affect each other in Marvel it seems so Shadowcat would have to be super quick about so Hulk doesn't just throw her out of the ground...it really just matters how much of a Hulk fanboy the writer is. 🙂

I don't see any way Kitty could lose. Hulk could never hurt her. She could keep phasing him into the ground or other things as well as phasing things into his head or something like that.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
When has Pyro ever shown this limitation? I'm not calling you a liar, I've just never seen it stated that Pyro has to see the flame to control it. Can you provide evidence of this? Wiki says that he "generally" needs to be able to see it, but I don't recall that ever being a factor in the comics.

This is straight from Marvel's website:

Pyro was a mutant with the psionic ability to cause any fire he could see within a 100-yard radius of himself to grow in size and intensity and to take on any form that he could imagine, even living creatures. Pyro could then mentally direct a creation to do anything he wished by concentrating, the degree necessary being directly proportionate to the size, power, and intensity of the creation. Pyro was unable to create fire himself.

Thing is, if HT lit up at all, Pyro could take complete control of the flames. And, before HT could do anything, Pyro could manipulate the flames to physically tear HT apart.

Human Torch's power is at the speed of thought also...most people's abilities are psionic based in that aspect. First off, Pyro couldn't just take the flame away from HT without a struggle...it would be a tug of war type fight...even if Pyro won it would give HT a chance to dampen the flame....furthermore, he shouldn't even have to dampen it, even if Pyro makes it dense enough to be physical it is STILL fire and shouldn't affect Johnny...

Nightcrawler teleported Deadpool's head off in AOA. I know it happened in AOA, but his power was the exact same then as it is now. I see no reason why he couldn't do it again.

It's hard to say if their powers are the same...There are many slight differences in powers between two versions of the same character in different universes, including AoA....Most of the AoA superpowers were more deadly than the normal universe

I don't see any way Kitty could lose. Hulk could never hurt her. She could keep phasing him into the ground or other things as well as phasing things into his head or something like that.

I KNOW Hulk can hurt Kitty...he can produce massive shockwaves...those can hurt her. The question is if Kitty could hurt Hulk and I'm not sure if phasing things into him or him into things would do it for sure. Even his brain mass is super durable in Hulk form and could possibly take the damage...it just matters how much spinach Hulk ate that day(or whatever other reason the writer wants to make him super strong that day for).

First, I think pyro's control is limited to fire he knows about, not necessarily sees. He can feel the heat or smell smoke, it doesn't have to be right in front of his face for him to be able to control a flame.

Second, I'm for torch. Any fire appears and torch can snuff it out before pyro starts forming it into things that can hurt him, and without flame to use it's just a physically fight that pyro loses. And as Xstreme has been saying, torch has access to tools beyond the fire itself, namely heat and plasma, that he can use in a fight with pyro.

Third, stop talking about nightcrawler, kitty and hulk. They are irrelevant.

Originally posted by XStreme
It's hard to say if their powers are the same...There are many slight differences in powers between two versions of the same character in different universes, including AoA....Most of the AoA superpowers were more deadly than the normal universe

I KNOW Hulk can hurt Kitty...he can produce massive shockwaves...those can hurt her. The question is if Kitty could hurt Hulk and I'm not sure if phasing things into him or him into things would do it for sure. Even his brain mass is super durable in Hulk form and could possibly take the damage...it just matters how much spinach Hulk ate that day(or whatever other reason the writer wants to make him super strong that day for).

AOA characters' powers were no different from their "mainstream" counterparts. They weren't any more deadly. The characters themselves were more deadly. They didn't mind using lethal force and such. Nightcrawler could EASILY do the same in the "mainstream" version, but he's just too good to do so.

And I suppose shockwaves would prove harmful to Kitty. I never thought of that. But I am still sure that Kitty could hurt Hulk. I mean, I know that he's mad dense and such. But having your molecules fused with tons and tons of solid rock...well, I just can't see that being a cup of tea for Hulk.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
[B]AOA characters' powers were no different from their "mainstream" counterparts. They weren't any more deadly. The characters themselves were more deadly. They didn't mind using lethal force and such. Nightcrawler could EASILY do the same in the "mainstream" version, but he's just too good to do so.

Iceman's AoA version was able to break himself and others down into bodies of water to travel great distances...

Husk's AoA version was able to turn into gaseous versions as well as only turn part of her body into a substance...

Their 616 versions have not shown that capacity...I'm not saying Nightcrawler can't do it...but I don't know if he can or not and I'm not sure an AoA example is definite proof...

I was wandering, has the human torch ever made flame contructs like pyro has?

I think Pyro is just as good if not better than the human torch at manipulating flame.

This fight would definately go to the torch though because he is physiclly stronger than Pyro,but if it was just a fight with fire it would be a stalemate all day.

HT takes out pyro easy.

Originally posted by spidey-dude
HT takes out pyro easy.

nope

Originally posted by Kaos sebaceous
nope

john

HT takes out pyro easy

Originally posted by spidey-dude
HT takes out pyro easy

You gonna bring up any points

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Johnny's control over his own flames most likely overrides Pyro's control. Not to mention that flames that aren't in Pyro's own control burn him.

I doubt that the humant torches control of flames are that much beter than Pyro's

If pyro see a flame he going to take it over and his suit is designed to have a degree of protection to flames he doesent control. So,even if HT pulls a fast one on Pyro with fire pyro will have enough time to take the flames under his control.

Im not saying pyro will win.I just dont think it will be easy for HT

Whats Ht got besides fire?

The only thing i can think of is flight,and if he flies hes in flame form so why cant pyro controls the flames on him to throw him into buildings and such?

There actually is a comic where pyro takes control of HT's flames but i think it was some non-canon spider-man comic so i have no idea why i said that