Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No wonder you dont rate her if thats the only kind of feat youre aware of 😱A Phoenix host temporarily held back the power of the 1st Firmament
616s 1st Phoenix host Firehair then joined forces with Starbrand to rewrite the reality of the entire Marvel multiverse:
Even if that was collaborative a Phoenix host is by canon more powerful than all Earths gods and protective powers as stated by Gaea:
So Firehair did the lionshare of the work. So a colossal feat beyond just about any Marvel cosmic i can think of.
Jean Grey is the most powerful of the Phoenix hosts according to the PF so her power scales up beyond even that.
Jean Grey Phoenix has amputated a future reality off the multiversal tree with a thought:
Materialised the 616 universe in her palm atom by atom displaying total control of all the matter and energy of the universe of which the Abstracts, gods and heroes are just facets of:
Phoenix also re-energised the containment field that withheld the multiversal power of the M'kraan crystal:
Phoenix created a multiversal nexus across all reality by projecting and duplicating a lighthouse across every dimension:
Multiversal feat upon mutiversal feat.
Plus the Phoenix Force by canon is the power from which all reality derives from:
a power that dwarfs the likes of the Beyonders in its full form:
Some of those you are exaggerating or making false claims due to what actually happened.
Most of them are not beneficial when it comes to fighting a battle.
And none of them show ability to permenantly kill a being who can come back from total disintegration, overpower MM, and come back from being erased from existence. The latter ends the debate.
Originally posted by zopzop
WB GS! Beyonder admitting he'd lose to the PF is huge.
Massive. Its what ive been saying on this forum for 18yrs (damn i feel old)
So its good to see it officially confirmed.
People underrate the Phoenix because they dont understand what it is and the implications of its nature.
All our Marvel faves are made up of Phoenix Force. Its substance is the building blocks of reality, meaning that all that derive from Marvels multiverse are ultimately derivative of the Phoenix.
Marvels realities are closed systems, meaning that the Big Bang is the be, all and end all of all energy within Marvel. All energy types, all beings are Big Bang derivatives:
This is why the Phoenix Force prefers to operate through hosts. Because when it manifests its consciousness as the firebird within this closed system, it becomes a life form itself with energy needs so its reabsorbing its ambient energies that are essential for the development of new life and the sustainment of existing life. So whilst said energy would eventually get redistributed back into the system via the process of energy transferral, it would've been taken out of the system in vast quantities for a time, having a huge impact on life's development. So instead the Phoenix prefers to only manifest as the Firebird when essential, whilst generally staying formless at a universal level and allowing pre-existing life forms within the the closed system to access its energies as hosts in order to carry out its agenda.
So whilst many beings have destroyed and created universes, they are dependant on the Phoenix Force to do so. Not only do their powers and being derive from the Phoenix, but the universal matter they're manipulating is Phoenix Force. They're creating nothing new, just manipulating what's Phoenix derived in the 1st place.
Plus there's the misconception regarding the firebird being the entirety of the Phoenix Force when its just an avatar. If the entirety of the Phoenix Force was summed up in that firebird then there'd be a void elsewhere. No other characters, no matter and energy anywhere, except for that which isnt derived from the multiverse. So even in Avengers vs X-men, the entirety of the manifested Phoenix avatar was what was shared amongst the Phoenix Five. Not the literal entirety of the Force.
When you know its nature, you truly realise how top tier it is and why certain perceived low showings dont really diminish its overall status. Its good to see this confirmed officially on panel in the past 2 years by various titles. 😄
Originally posted by carver9In terms of physical strength he's more than even that (according to feats of course).
Hopefully no one is debating with H1. This is the same guy that said Superman is 100s of times more powerful than Sentry.
You have
1. moon level
2. Then planetary level
3. Then star level (=> 5 orders of magnitude above 2)
4. Then multistar level
Sentry (at best) is 2. And Superman is 4.
By feats, Superman is at least several orders of magnitude above Sentry in strength.
Originally posted by h1a8
In terms of physical strength he's more than even that (according to feats of course).You have
1. moon level
2. Then planetary level
3. Then star level (=> 5 orders of magnitude above 2)
4. Then multistar levelSentry (at best) is 2. And Superman is 4.
By feats, Superman is at least several orders of magnitude above Sentry in strength.
There are showings going against everything youve said here.
Originally posted by h1a8
Some of those you are exaggerating or making false claims due to what actually happened.Most of them are not beneficial when it comes to fighting a battle.
This is some limp, intentionally vague, non-committal reply which makes it clear you know what the rest of us know....youre beat.
All of the feats mentioned demonstrate massive energy manipulation feats which are entirely relevant to battle.
Being able to casually telekinetically amputate an entire reality with zero discernible effort isnt relevant to potential battle prowess?
Having total telekinetic control of all of the matter and energy within a reality in the palm of your hand isnt relevant to battle?
Being able to rewrite the reality of the entire Marvel multiverse isnt a transferrable skill that can be applied to battle?
Originally posted by h1a8
And none of them show ability to permanently kill a being who can come back from total disintegration, overpower MM, and come back from being erased from existence. The latter ends the debate.
Only for the short-sighted or those without insight. All that lives does so because of the Phoenix. Its just not computing for you as youre lowering it to herald level fisticuffs and not appreciating the implications of its nature and how everything including your beloved Sentry are connected to it.
It is pure life on a multiversal scale. If you are derivative of the Marvel multiverse, you can only live because of the Phoenix Force. Its substance and essence is what makes you alive. No Phoenix Force = non-existence
It is not a being wielding life force energies that Sentry can fight for control of life. IT IS realities life. Its substance facilitates your faves. There is no greater determinant of life other than TOAA.
Sentry reforming is because destruction of his body doesnt kill him. As long as theres an atom of his body remaining, he is alive and can reform. So Sentry is just using his molecular manipulation to regenerate whilst having ZERO canon abilities regarding life force manipulation. Thats the crux of the matter. If the Phoenix Force reclaimed whats hers, his life essence, theres no coming back from that. He has no abilities related to life force, just matter manipulation. Phoenix is life. Sentry is a dependant life form. 😉
However even if you fanatically didnt want to accept that the life force of Marvel couldnt reclaim the essence of life from a life form it facilitates, then theres the simple fact that Sentry was trapped in the sun after Thor dumped his body there after Siege. It was only through the intervention of the Apocalypse Twins that he was able to escape and reform. Thereby displaying the limits of his durability and regeneration abilities. He could be atomized and left to perpetually grow and regrow in a star helpless:
Or he could be atomized on a sub atomic level which is beyond his demonstrated ability to remain alive and regenerate from. Disagree? Prove it.
One thing to note is how Sentry acknowledges in the above scan, his dependence on the Phoenixes White Hot Room. He is just a speck whose life and afterlife are entirely dependent on and determined by the Phoenix. Once again....levels 🙂
Originally posted by h1a8
Do you agree that Sentry at his best (MM level version) can disintegrate Phoenix host due to him overpowering MM using same tactic?
Molecule Mans power levels over history have been erratic with many peaks and troughs in correlation with his mental state.
The Molecule Man Sentry faced displayed matter manipulation feats on par with the Eternal Sersi. Nothing grandiose or high level.
This Molecule Man also came at a time when Brian Michael Bendis tried to decouple Molecule Man and Beyonder from their cosmic cubes/Beyonders related origins by making Beyonder just an Inhuman. It was also Bendis who wrote this Dark Avengers story.
So theres not much you can read into regarding this showing.
Regardless, Sentry has zero molecular manipulation feats on the level of Jean Phoenix. She would absolutely eat him up:
She could atomize him beyond his ability to regenerate from, warp reality and write him out of the timeline, telepathically make him commit suicide or absorb his life force. No life force means no driving consciousness to utilize matter manipulation abilities to regenerate. He'd just be dead and Phoenix might allow him entry into the White Hot Room. 😉
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Molecule Mans power levels over history have been erratic with many peaks and troughs in correlation with his mental state.The Molecule Man Sentry faced displayed matter manipulation feats on par with the Eternal Sersi. Nothing grandiose or high level.
This Molecule Man also came at a time when Brian Michael Bendis tried to decouple Molecule Man and Beyonder from their cosmic cubes/Beyonders related origins by making Beyonder just an Inhuman. It was also Bendis who wrote this Dark Avengers story.
So theres not much you can read into regarding this showing.
Regardless, Sentry has zero molecular manipulation feats on the level of Jean Phoenix. She would absolutely eat him up:
She could atomize him beyond his ability to regenerate from, warp reality and write him out of the timeline, telepathically make him commit suicide or absorb his life force. No life force means no driving consciousness to utilize matter manipulation abilities to regenerate. He'd just be dead and Phoenix might allow him entry into the White Hot Room. 😉
The fact that MM CASUALLY atomized Sentry (a being more powerful than Thor) proves his power. No one is doing that. Good look thinking Jean can atomize high Herald or even trans level Beings. Sentry overpowered MM at his own game. This is far beyond any matter manipulation feat by Phoenix.
You are ignoring the fact that Bob came back AFTER BEING ERASED FROM EXISTENCE. He never existed and still came back. There is nothing beyond that.
Originally posted by carver9How would she stop him from disintegrating her? He overpowered MM. MM casually disintegrated Sentry (who is more powerful than Thor).
Phoenix outright stomps Sentry.
Originally posted by h1a8
The fact that MM CASUALLY atomized Sentry (a being more powerful than Thor) proves his power. No one is doing that. Good look thinking Jean can atomize high Herald or even trans level Beings. Sentry overpowered MM at his own game. This is far beyond any matter manipulation feat by Phoenix.
Sentrys durability limits are exceeded by the power of the Sun. Youre overrating Molecule Mans feat and Sentrys durability. Calm down 😆
Ive detailed why Sentrys feat of overpowering MM whilst nice isnt the out of this world feat that you would assert.
Brian Michael Bendis disassociated the Beyonder/MM from their cosmic cube origins and wrote them as metahumans. Beyonder was at the time retconned into an inhuman. Molecule Mans demonstrated power level within that Dark Avengers story arc that Brian Michael Bendis also wrote was herald level at best.
Beyond any matter manipulation feat performed by Phoenix? Jean manipulated the matter of the entirety of 616 and amputated futures off the multiversal tree. Dont be absurd 😱
Please share with us all one feat that Molecule Man performed in that era that showed he was operating at a cosmic level of significance?
Then after that, please show us all a matter manipulation feat of Sentrys thats solar system, galactic or universal level?
I'll wait.....
Originally posted by h1a8
You are ignoring the fact that Bob came back AFTER BEING ERASED FROM EXISTENCE. He never existed and still came back. There is nothing beyond that.
Erased from existence when? He has been blasted apart by Morgan Le Fay and Molecule Man. Thats not being erased from existence, thats getting washed lol. He just got blown apart and as stated in the scan i shared above, as long as an atom of his body remains he can regrow himself. Thats entirely different from what youre asserting.
Sentrys durability limits can be exceeded by any being who can generate the equivalent output of a star. Said output is enough to stop him from regenerating as confirmed by Sentry himself. You therefore cannot argue otherwise with any credibility.
Furthermore there is zero evidence that Sentry can regenerate from matter smaller than an atom.
Jean Phoenixes output is enough to manipulate an entire universe at an atomic level and she is said to possess TOTAL control of matter. Sentry by comparison is admittedly a novice with decent output but no skill who could take out a nerfed Molecule Man as his peak matter manipulation feat. Levels 😂
Plus he can only regenerate whilst he is alive to consciously manipulate matter. He has zero life force manipulation abilities, purely matter manipulation. He has no defence against his life force being taken back by Phoenix. No life force equals dead as a donut. No consciousness to utilize matter manipulation to regenerate. Dead. Very dead. Do you understand? 😄
All this arguing stems from your various misinterpretations. Its a comprehension issue. 😬
Originally posted by h1a8
How would she stop him from disintegrating her? He overpowered MM. MM casually disintegrated Sentry (who is more powerful than Thor).
How would she even harm him enough to the point where he can't heal or come back? He came back from being erased from existence. Nothing is topping that.
He stopped a nerfed Molecule Man. You have to take that into consideration. Not a Molecule Man at the height of his powers.
The MM of that Dark Avengers era was doing parlour tricks and had no showings beyond herald level. He had been disassociated with the cosmic cube origins by Bendis and was displaying vastly reduced power levels.
Your perception of him doesnt consider this context and is thus FLAWED. INACCURATE. NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE. 😬
Erased from existence is being written out of existence through reality or chronal manipulation so that said being never existed in reality. Thats not what happened to Sentry.
He got blown up 😬
Erased from existence? 😕
Get a grip 😆
As stated by himself, he remains alive if an atom of himself exists and he can manipulate matter to regenerate. However the output of a star is beyond the limits of his durability.
He had to be saved.
As it stands, Sentrys powers stem from matter manipulation at the molecular level.
His top feat with this ability is regenerating his body from an atom and overpowering a nerfed Molecule Man who Bendis had retconned to not have any Beyonder or Cosmic Cube connection.
Sentrys durability limits are exceeded by the output of Earths sun.
Sentry has not demonstrated the ability to regenerate from matter less than an atom.
Jean Greys Phoenix output enables her to manipulate the entirety of the 616 universe down to its component atoms. Many, many, many orders of magnitude beyond a single solar systems star.
She could atomize Sentry beyond the atomic level thus beyond his ability to regenerate. blowup
She also has life force manipulation powers, something Sentry has zero defence against. So she could just withdraw his life force and whether Sentry is an atom, a torso or his whole freakin body, he would be dead. No consciousness to utilize his matter manipulation powers to regenerate anything in the 1st place. Dead. No life. Perished. Deceased. 😂
As ive demonstrated in this thread, Phoenix hosts have multiversal scale reality manipulation abilities. Jean could simply alter 616 so that Sentry never had the serum that gave him his powers, or just write him out of existence entirely.
Or she could be cruel and blow him up and teleport him into a star for him to be stuck perpetually atomized and regenerating like Thor did.
Options. Options. https://imgur.com/uSy1N2l
As i said before, pit Sentry against heralds to mid tier cosmics. He is no match for the top dogs as Knull showed his ass.
👆
The breadth of Owen's powers have always been fully dependent on his mental stability. ie. when he is fully stable, the guy is a universal/multiversal powerhouse... But when he's unstable, the guy can become c-list fodder.
This is important, because when Owen encountered Sentry in Dark Avengers, he was in one of his most mentally unstable states that we have ever seen. He was herald-level... Maybe Skyfather-level, if we feel like giving him the heavy benefit of the doubt.
Either way, that level of power would be inconsequential when compared to the PF... Especially as it has been portrayed by Ewing recently.
Originally posted by Galan007
👆The breadth of Owen's powers have always been fully dependent on his mental stability. ie. when he is fully stable, the guy is a universal/multiversal powerhouse... But when he's unstable, the guy can become c-list fodder.
This is important, because when Owen encountered Sentry in Dark Avengers, he was in one of his most mentally unstable states that we have ever seen. He was herald-level... Maybe low Skyfather level at best, if we feel like giving him the heavy benefit of the doubt.
Either way, that level of power would be inconsequential when compared to the PF... Especially as it has been portrayed by Ewing recently.
🤘
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
As it stands, Sentrys powers stem from matter manipulation at the molecular level.His top feat with this ability is regenerating his body from an atom and overpowering a nerfed Molecule Man who Bendis had retconned to not have any Beyonder or Cosmic Cube connection.
Sentrys durability limits are exceeded by the output of Earths sun.
Sentry has not demonstrated the ability to regenerate from matter less than an atom.
Jean Greys Phoenix output enables her to manipulate the entirety of the 616 universe down to its component atoms. Many, many, many orders of magnitude beyond a single solar systems star.
She could atomize Sentry beyond the atomic level thus beyond his ability to regenerate. blowup
She also has life force manipulation powers, something Sentry has zero defence against. So she could just withdraw his life force and whether Sentry is an atom, a torso or his whole freakin body, he would be dead. No consciousness to utilize his matter manipulation powers to regenerate anything in the 1st place. [B]Dead.
No life. Perished. Deceased. 😂As ive demonstrated in this thread, Phoenix hosts have multiversal scale reality manipulation abilities. Jean could simply alter 616 so that Sentry never had the serum that gave him his powers, or just write him out of existence entirely.
Or she could be cruel and blow him up and teleport him into a star for him to be stuck perpetually atomized and regenerating like Thor did.
Options. Options. https://imgur.com/uSy1N2l
As i said before, pit Sentry against heralds to mid tier cosmics. He is no match for the top dogs as Knull showed his ass. [/B]
His top feat is coming back after being erased from existence. That is my 4th time stating that. You keep ignoring it.
I know MM was nerfed. That's why I gave a feat for him (that version) to prove his power level. He casually disintegrated Sentry. That's one hell of a feat. Who has Phoenix disintegrated? We go by feats, not no limit fallacies. Because from all her fights she has yet to do the things to Sentry you said she can.
Sentry is significantly faster than her in battle (when fighting at his best).
He can potentially act before she does.
1. Sentry can disintegrate her. What's her defense against that?
2. Sentry can resist being disintegrated. He resisted being disintegrated by nerfed MM (who had the power to disintegrate Sentry at normal levels earlier). Even if Sentry is damaged then he would simply reform. He even came back from nonexistence. Nothing is topping that.
3. Looking at all her fights, she never disintegrated anyone on the level of high Herald or above. Phoenix host has been killed multiple times. Let's go by her battles. What has she done in battle that
A. Shows she can put someone down that can come back from nonexistence
B. Prevent being disintegrated by a power multiple times more powerful than able to disintegrate Sentry at normal levels.
Everything you say contradicts ALL of her battles. None of her battles corroborate the things relevant to permanently beating Sentry (at his best)