Phoenix v Sentry

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
👆

Im really enjoying where Ewings taken the Marvel cosmology. I thought making the King in Blacks counterparts to The Beyonders was inspired.

My worry is August's G.O.D.S title from Jonathan Hickman. This event is supposedly a revision and revitalization of the Marvel cosmology as well. I love Hickmans work, but if its going to upend everything Ewing did so well in Ultimates, Defenders and Venom, im not really here for it 😕

Originally posted by h1a8
Prove that Jean displayed control over every atom of a particular universe.
Prove that she is able to do the same to the 616 universe.
All of her fights and showings says otherwise.

I gave a quantifiable feat for Sentry proving his reaction, perception, and acceleration speed. You have yet to post anything that proves she has comparable or above speed. Feats against characters isn't proof for the listed reasons I gave.

Even if Phoenix can disintegrate Sentry (she can't) then he would reform.
Even if she can erase him (she can't) then he would come back.

Sentry disintegrates Phoenix before she acts. End of argument.

I dont know whether theres a learning need, a literacy problem or a visual impairment, but this has all been addressed quite conclusively.

All of your points have been handled, all of your wacky perspectives debunked. All along, I've quoted every last bit of your nonsense to demonstrate a clear take down of each and every point youve brought to the table.

You repeatedly fail to address large chunks of my posts, hide that by not quoting me and then phone in a reply like this. Repetition of your same old waffle i've already relegated to garbage.

Youve given nothing but words and more words. Not a damn scan in sight. 🙄

This limp, half baked response tells us all you know that in your heart of hearts this was long over days ago 🙁

The poll says it all.

It was an admirable attempt. Rest easy lil bro crutch

Originally posted by ODG
I should think Hickman would not shred apart what Ewing established because a lot of what Ewing is doing honors Hickman's work.

In terms of the cosmology? Ive probably overlooked that then. But lets hope you're right. I love what Ewings established so hopefully G.O.D.S builds on it in a complementary way.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
In terms of the cosmology? Ive probably overlooked that then. But lets hope you're right. I love what Ewings established so hopefully G.O.D.S builds on it in a complementary way.

Prove that Jean displayed control over every atom of a particular universe.
You never proved this. Do you understand the difference between proof and speculation?

Prove that she is able to do the same to the 616 universe.
You never proved this.

All of her fights and showings says otherwise.

I gave a quantifiable feat for Sentry proving his reaction, perception, and acceleration speed. Here's the scan:
https://sta.sh/0176w3lextmm

You have yet to post anything that proves she has comparable or above speed. Feats against characters isn't proof for the listed reasons I gave. Prove that she can perceive things in the same time span. Prove that she can react and move in the same time span, starting from rest.

Now do the math. Sentry travels about 10ft in the time it takes a 9mm bullet to travel about 2 inches. If Sentry started from rest and accelerated then what's his average acceleration? Use that average acceleration and determine how long will it take him to reach light speed.

Even if Phoenix can disintegrate Sentry (she can't) then he would reform.
Even if she can erase him (she can't) then he would come back.

Sentry disintegrates Phoenix before she acts. Or he knocks her out at the start of the fight (with the half the strength required to stop Exitar's descent.). End of argument.

Not that's it's relevant anymore, but here's Sentry entering gamma lava:
https://imgur.com/oUzYAcd

Originally posted by h1a8
Prove that Jean displayed control over every atom of a particular universe.
You never proved this. Do you understand the difference between proof and speculation?

Prove that she is able to do the same to the 616 universe.
You never proved this.

This is exactly what I did. She amputated Here Comes Tomorrow off of 616 and materialized 616 in her palm controlling all of its atoms as stated by the Phoenix. Her ability to control all a universes atomic structure then being referenced in her bio as an update following the feat as i showed quite conclusively. If you didn't understand the scan, or how it was proven then come with some humility and ask. Dont make out like I've avoided the question and not done a thing.

My points are shown on panel and verified by handbook. Youre being obstructive as youre a very, very sore. Thats tough shit

Disprove me with some canonical evidence or accept your L 😉

I repeat. Disprove me with canonical evidence that shows that following achieving White Phoenix status, Jean actually cant manipulate atomic structures on a universal scale?

Waiting patiently.....

Originally posted by h1a8
All of her fights and showings says otherwise.

Already handled this here:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

She hasnt been given many, many opportunities. She has been the Phoenix TWICE in 40 years. 😆

As i clearly highlighted in one of my previous posts, her "telekinetic godhood" was a journey that was built up through the title culminating in her fulfilling her potential at the end of the story arc. Said abilities were then updated within her character bios as established abilities for her as the Phoenix.

So your argument against it being PIS is redundant as the circumstances didnt allow for their to be many, many opportunities as you claimed without insight.

However propensity has long been established, abilities are documented as canon and its a very viable tactic for her.

Done. 🙂

All her fights and showings say otherwise? What fights has she had as the White Phoenix for your comment to actually be factual and relevant?

She hasnt. Yet she has multiple high level and very transferrable feats during this period, which were then verified by the handbook cementing them in canon and making them entirely accessible when i highlight them as viable strategies within a forum battle such as this one.

I have shared the forum rules with you multiple times. Stop yapping and get to reading and comprehending.

You will deal 😆

Originally posted by h1a8
I gave a quantifiable feat for Sentry proving his reaction, perception, and acceleration speed. Here's the scan:
https://sta.sh/0176w3lextmm

You have yet to post anything that proves she has comparable or above speed. Feats against characters isn't proof for the listed reasons I gave. Prove that she can perceive things in the same time span. Prove that she can react and move in the same time span, starting from rest.

Youve posted 1 scan this whole thread after days of pressure from me and youre having the audacity to talk about how i havent proven anything? 😱

Lets take apart your evidence...

There are far too many variables for you to assert with any accuracy how great Sentrys bullet catching feat is. Bullet speed depends both on the type of gun and the bullet fired.

That handgun bullet couldve been travelling anywhere from 450 miles per hour to 1800 miles per hour. Its inconclusive. Yet you want to present your unquantifiable feat as some conclusive and accurately quantified showing (which it isnt) and yet rubbish mine which involves beings with exponentially greater movement speeds than said bullet. You cant do that. 😆

Know whats a good 50% faster than the fastest handgun bullets? 😖hifty:

A sniper bullet! 😱

https://imgur.com/ZBWzYnj

What makes this superior to Sentrys feat is The Void telegraphed his intention to use the handgun with everything from the cliche villanous monologue to being in a firing position, so Sentry was primed and ready to intercept the 50% slower (at least) handgun bullet:

https://imgur.com/Alk8xKb

https://imgur.com/6wyyYrY

Jean however was completely unaware of the specifics of the attack and had to respond on the fly, showing immense sensory processing and reaction ability in being able to visually process the much higher velocity sniper bullet as it flew past her head and catch it inches from the Professors head as it travelled at near 3000 mph.

And even if you continue to doubt a Phoenix hosts reaction times are as fast as Sentrys (untrue) you cannot doubt that they remain superhuman, which means that the 0.5km starting distance between the characters (as per forum rules) is more than enough for a host to either erect a shield or bolster their bodies durability in time with their superhuman reaction times. So this is a redundant line of argument like all the rest.

Originally posted by h1a8
Even if Phoenix can disintegrate Sentry (she can't) then he would reform.
Even if she can erase him (she can't) then he would come back.

Sentry disintegrates Phoenix before she acts. Or he knocks her out at the start of the fight. End of argument.

If Molecule Man can disintegrate Sentry via molecular manipulation, then the vastly more powerful White Phoenix can disintegrate him via molecular manipulation to.

As discussed above you have zero conclusive evidence to show that Sentrys reaction time is so superior to a Phoenix hosts (its not) that he can cover the 0.5km ahead of their superhuman reaction time allowing for the erection of a shield or bolstering of their physicality to be able to laugh off his attacks.

Sentry doesnt reappear immediately via complete disintegration as we saw repeatedly in the comics, therefore as per forum rules the match would be over. Thems the breaks 😱

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
This is exactly what I did. She amputated Here Comes Tomorrow off of 616 and materialized 616 in her palm controlling all of its atoms

Originally posted by ODG
Oh, ffs. 😕

I remember our old debate from years back. Fun times 🙂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
This is exactly what I did. She amputated Here Comes Tomorrow off of 616 and materialized 616 in her palm controlling all of its atoms as stated by the Phoenix. Her ability to control all a universes atomic structure then being referenced in her bio as an update following the feat as i showed quite conclusively. If you didn't understand the scan, or how it was proven then come with some humility and ask. Dont make out like I've avoided the question and not done a thing.

Amputated Here Comes Tomorrow off 616 has no meaning to me. What does that mean exactly?

I never seen her materialize 616 in her palm and I certainly never seen her controlling all of it's atoms. Are you confusing that feat with her showing a possible image of a galaxy in her hand? Or an image of a universe? I know White Phoenix severed a branch off the timeline (alternate future). But that's not the same as controlling every atom in the 616 universe. You can do that just by time travel and changing things. If Phoenix can control every atom in the 616 universe then it would be apparent from her fights. She obviously would control her opponents, instead of blast them.

My points are shown on panel and verified by handbook. Youre being obstructive as youre a very, very sore. Thats tough shit

Disprove me with some canonical evidence or accept your L 😉

I repeat. Disprove me with canonical evidence that shows that following achieving White Phoenix status, Jean actually cant manipulate atomic structures on a universal scale?

Waiting patiently.....

Already handled this here:

All her fights and showings say otherwise? What fights has she had as the White Phoenix for your comment to actually be factual and relevant?

She hasnt. Yet she has multiple high level and very transferrable feats during this period, which were then verified by the handbook cementing them in canon and making them entirely accessible when i highlight them as viable strategies within a forum battle such as this one.

I have shared the forum rules with you multiple times. Stop yapping and get to reading and comprehending.

You will deal 😆

You can't spout why you would perform particular actions if you had Phoenix power and equate them to her choosing to operate the same way based off your reasoning. That's not how proof works. You have to show actions a character has made to prove propensity to not only think of a tactic (creativity) but choose to do so (preference).

Youve posted 1 scan this whole thread after days of pressure from me and youre having the audacity to talk about how i havent proven anything? 😱

Lets take apart your evidence...

There are far too many variables for you to assert with any accuracy how great Sentrys bullet catching feat is. Bullet speed depends both on the type of gun and the bullet fired.

That handgun bullet couldve been travelling anywhere from 450 miles per hour to 1800 miles per hour. Its inconclusive. Yet you want to present your unquantifiable feat as some conclusive and accurately quantified showing (which it isnt) and yet rubbish mine which involves beings with exponentially greater movement speeds than said bullet. You cant do that. 😆

Know whats a good 50% faster than the fastest handgun bullets? 😖hifty:

A sniper bullet! 😱

https://imgur.com/ZBWzYnj

What makes this superior to Sentrys feat is The Void telegraphed his intention to use the handgun with everything from the cliche villanous monologue to being in a firing position, so Sentry was primed and ready to intercept the 50% slower (at least) handgun bullet:

https://imgur.com/Alk8xKb

https://imgur.com/6wyyYrY

Jean however was completely unaware of the specifics of the attack and had to respond on the fly, showing immense sensory processing and reaction ability in being able to visually process the much higher velocity sniper bullet as it flew past her head and catch it inches from the Professors head as it travelled at near 3000 mph.

And even if you continue to doubt a Phoenix hosts reaction times are as fast as Sentrys (untrue) you cannot doubt that they remain superhuman, which means that the 0.5km starting distance between the characters (as per forum rules) is more than enough for a host to either erect a shield or bolster their bodies durability in time with their superhuman reaction times. So this is a redundant line of argument like all the rest.

1. It was a semiautomatic handgun cambered in 9mm (most likely). The muzzle velocity is over 1000fps (1200fps on average). No semi-automatic round travels 450mph. That's silly.

2. That wasn't a typical bullet. Looks like some type of device that was shot out. The speed is unknown. Plus it traveled a much longer distance (more time elasped). And what comic is that from? Professor X not in a wheel chair?

3. According to Sentry's feat, he can cover 0.5km in 0.002 seconds if assuming the bullet was traveling at 1000fps (and not the average 1200fps). Sentry doesn't even have to knock her out. He can just act first and disintegrate her, killing her instantly.

If Molecule Man can disintegrate Sentry via molecular manipulation, then the vastly more powerful White Phoenix can disintegrate him via molecular manipulation to.

As discussed above you have zero conclusive evidence to show that Sentrys reaction time is so superior to a Phoenix hosts (its not) that he can cover the 0.5km ahead of their superhuman reaction time allowing for the erection of a shield or bolstering of their physicality to be able to laugh off his attacks.

Sentry doesnt reappear immediately via complete disintegration as we saw repeatedly in the comics, therefore as per forum rules the match would be over. Thems the breaks 😱

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I remember our old debate from years back. Fun times 🙂

Originally posted by h1a8
Amputated Here Comes Tomorrow off 616 has no meaning to me. What does that mean exactly?

Exactly what it means in plain English, she cut off the future reality of Here Comes Tomorrow, off of the main 616 reality. You dont have to understand the ins and outs of comic book science, you just have to accept what is established as canonical fact. Its that simple 🙂

Originally posted by h1a8
I never seen her materialize 616 in her palm and I certainly never seen her controlling all of it's atoms. Are you confusing that feat with her showing a possible image of a galaxy in her hand? Or an image of a universe? I know White Phoenix severed a branch off the timeline (alternate future). But that's not the same as controlling every atom in the 616 universe. You can do that just by time travel and changing things. If Phoenix can control every atom in the 616 universe then it would be apparent from her fights. She obviously would control her opponents, instead of blast them.

So here you state "I know White Phoenix severed a branch off the timeline (alternate future)" but the beginning post you start by saying "Amputated Here Comes Tomorrow off 616 has no meaning to me. What does that mean exactly?"

Are you ok? 😆

As for the rest of the waffle i've already addressed this. You can disagree with the feat all you want. You can think it isnt artistically represented clear enough to your liking and thats fine, but what you cannot do is deny a canonical feat.

The White Hot Room is in a higher dimension, outside of all time and space which means denizens of such a dimension would perceive lower dimensions on a different scale.

In higher dimensional space, whilst matter still has the same properties, the comparative scale of things is entirely different:

https://imgur.com/uPTTAs6

https://imgur.com/iAUX6lg

Notice how outside of reality, Eternity becomes palm sized. Comparative scale shifts.

Reed Richards experienced the same:

https://imgur.com/fHuLrCB

https://imgur.com/gbrLsar

From a higher dimension, the star appeared smaller to Reed enabling him to get a macro view of it and more easily carry out "surgery" than if he was in the same dimension (where he would be a speck next to a star and need to operate monumentally sized equipment) however the star was still very much a star and not an image or visualization.

One of the roles of the Phoenix Force is to maintain the multiverse it spawned and keep it healthy:

https://imgur.com/uYDkLgK

It is a "healing force for universes"

As shown in the recent Defenders Beyond. But the idea of the Phoenix healing universes goes back decades with it disinfecting a plague that was killing Eternity, before then cauterizing his wound thereby healing him:

https://imgur.com/BJ6Yed2

https://imgur.com/12THWSj

New X-men however reiterated this concept of the Phoenix being a doctor for universes in the modern era.

Sublime was a sentient bacterial colony dedicated to becoming the dominant life form in reality and was willing to subjugate other life forms and stagnate evolution to retain that dominance:

https://imgur.com/HH3aehO

https://imgur.com/CDYsfex

It eventually got hold of Jeans genetic material and through this gave itself access to the Phoenix Force and its "telekinetic godhood", meaning it could carry out its agenda on a cosmic scale:

https://imgur.com/jW60S8T

The Phoenix Force is dedicated to evolution:

https://imgur.com/rxfTIUj

https://imgur.com/uVB6Oru

As evolution perpetuates the creation cycle, so it had to intervene.

Jean eventually performed surgery on the universe, extracting Sublime from reality:

https://imgur.com/XjqYN4O

https://imgur.com/gmYWUFf

"A coordinated disinfection."

And pondered to herself if...."Surgery complete?"

What she found however was that the Sublime infection had done so much damage to reality that she coudnt simply just remove the bacterial colony (represented as the glowing green orb) she had to amputate that whole future off the multiversal "body" which we see represented by the fading out of the future reality:

https://imgur.com/5oovkFC

https://imgur.com/B3rPbU6

So here Morrison used metaphors and painted the universe as a patient and the Phoenix as a doctor. A doctor who had to amputate a limb (the Here Comes Tomorrow future) in order to save the patent.

Jean asks the Phoenix in the scan above if Sublime is the inevitable future "Is this the future?"

The Phoenix gives her hope by basically saying, not necessarily this is just how things currently stand "This is now" and then the Phoenix goes on to explain that instead of carrying out her Phoenix work and disinfecting reality from Sublime at an earlier stage (616 / the present) she let herself get distracted with her human life and this almost killed the universe. "You lost concentration. Became emotionally engaged. Shock almost killed it. Patient die unless internal heart damage repaired. "

We saw this here:

https://imgur.com/rmWM4aQ

Jean brushed off the Phoenixes warnings in the 616 present to focus on her marital struggles. This exacerbated the Sublime issue leading it to get worse behind the scenes.

Going back to the previous Here Comes Tomorrow scene, Jean laments that her friends dont deserve Sublime as a future. The Phoenix tells her its not over yet and to go to the hospital to treat the wounded patient.

https://imgur.com/5oovkFC

The Phoenix then clarifies that the hospital in question is the White Hot Room accessed in the M'kraan crystal and that she must go to said "hospital" to heal the patients wound, by growing it a better future:

https://imgur.com/OcNqDWe

So again. Morrison is painting the Phoenix Force as multiversal medicine, the Phoenix hosts as doctors of the universe.

And what better place for a doctor to treat a patient than a hospital. Which we're told is the White Hot Room.

Within the "hospital" i.e the higher dimensional plane inside the crystal, Jean materialises what we're told explicitly is the badly wounded universe:

https://imgur.com/pfqD6pU

She materialized it within "the hospital" presumably because it was a safer, more effective space to treat "the patient." Jeans feat involved the telekinetic control of all of the universes atoms.

Not a visualization. Its stated to be the wounded universe. So zero justification or evidence for calling it or treating it as anything but that when its established in canon that scales are different when viewing things from higher dimensions and following this feat, Jeans handbook bio went from this:

https://imgur.com/7gznS6V

to this:

https://imgur.com/MduUmvv

Handbooks reflect the canon of comics. So if you had any doubt about how to interpret that scene, well the handbooks just told you the official company line on that scene which is as Phoenix, Jean Grey can manipulate universal scale atomic structures.

And what was this badly wounded universe?

https://imgur.com/GpMb3gK

616

In the scene above, you see Jean peering into the universe in her hand hearing events from 616:

"Every diamond has its flaw" - New X-men 119

https://imgur.com/AwuCFCQ

"Gus was a good dog." - New X-men 123

https://imgur.com/VmBUui5

"Are these words from the future?" - New X-men 128

https://imgur.com/v2fTOak

Jean then telepathically reaches into the universe in her palm and nudges Scott to let go of his anguish over her death, move forward with Emma and continue with the School.

As presented in the comics and as verified by the Handbooks

https://imgur.com/NLy5H8C

https://imgur.com/hYE2YXA

So the comic depicts Jean as a healer of universes, she disinfected reality from Sublime to safeguard evolution and thus the creation cycle, the damage was too severe so she had to amputate that dystopian future off 616 as opposed to just going straight to altering events as that wouldve simply caused a divergent reality and left Sublime in reality with the power of the Phoenix. She then grew a new future to heal the wound she had caused by altering events in the 616 present to ensure Here Comes Tomorrow never came to pass.

Originally posted by h1a8
Disprove you? Your claim is invalid without proof. No need to disprove anything. Handbooks reference comics, not the other way around. We use on panel feats to prove ability.

Of course i have. Its stated that Phoenix amputated the future and depicted that she materialised what we're told is a wounded universe thats later revealed to be 616.

This point is then verified by the handbooks. You keep weirdly and nonsensically saying handbooks reference the comics and the other way around as if im saying the comics are secondary to Handbooks. What im saying is that with regards to the feats ive mentioned that are depicted in the comics, my take on what said scenes represent is then officially verified by the Handbooks.

You might not be satisfied by the way the feats are represented but thats entirely irrelevant in the face of the Handbooks confirming the line to take when viewing those scenes.

Unless you have evidence your opinion to the contrary is useless, ineffective and insufficient. Come with some evidence or you've lost this point.

Originally posted by h1a8
Phoenix has had many fights before. Not just Jean Grey but other characters who possessed the power of the Phoenix. Like I said, 100% of someone's fights can't be PIS when it comes to what a character would choose to do. That literally makes no sense.

So White Phoenix huh and not Phoenix? So you arguing White Phoenix? Well my points remain the same.

This comment is what makes zero sense. How can you join all Phoenixes together to discuss PIS when theyre all different individuals? You can lump them together to discuss basic powerset which is standard amongst them all. What differs is propensity and power level. Jean being the most powerful.

This thread just stated Phoenix. So ive been debating in terms of the optimum host Jean. The Phoenix Force would be overkill.

Originally posted by h1a8
1. It was a semiautomatic handgun cambered in 9mm (most likely). The muzzle velocity is over 1000fps (1200fps on average). No semi-automatic round travels 450mph. That's silly.

2. That wasn't a typical bullet. Looks like some type of device that was shot out. The speed is unknown. Plus it traveled a much longer distance (more time elasped). And what comic is that from? Professor X not in a wheel chair?

3. According to Sentry's feat, he can cover 0.5km in 0.002 seconds if assuming the bullet was traveling at 1000fps (and not the average 1200fps). Sentry doesn't even have to knock her out. He can just act first and disintegrate her, killing her instantly.

You do not know the specifics of the handgun or calibre to be making such assertions. You cant state your baseless calculations are fact whilst simultaneously turning around and telling me the speed of the sniper gun Jean reacted to is unknown and dismiss the feat. Have some integrity. Both sides are unknown. Accept that.

All you can assert from the two scenes in question, is that both characters have substantial superhuman reaction speed with zero way of establishing accurate figures to quantify who has greater reaction times based on these two feats. You can think Sentrys faster all you want, but without a standard point of comparison we just cant tell conclusively, therefore its a moot point. Reiterating your guesstimates in response to this will not change things. Theres no way of doing an accurate comparison based on the evidence presented.

Focus on the rest of your shaky argument.

Originally posted by h1a8
I disagree that White Phoenix is more powerful than MM in the sense of being able to disintegrate very durable beings such as Sentry. You need feats to prove such. This is Sentry at his best. He will always reform instantly. Remember that's the character I'm debating.

You can disagree all you want, but without proof that Dark Avengers MM had universal scale molecular manipulation abilities your contrary opinion is utterly irrelevant.

Sentry at his best is based on best showings for his powers. He has never regenerated instantly from complete disintegration. It would therefore be considered a loss.

Originally posted by ODG

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

😍

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Exactly what it means in plain English, she cut off the future reality of Here Comes Tomorrow, off of the main 616 reality. You dont have to understand the ins and outs of comic book science, you just have to accept what is established as canonical fact. Its that simple 🙂

So here you state "I know White Phoenix severed a branch off the timeline (alternate future)" but the beginning post you start by saying "Amputated Here Comes Tomorrow off 616 has no meaning to me. What does that mean exactly?"

Are you ok? 😆

As for the rest of the waffle i've already addressed this. You can disagree with the feat all you want. You can think it isnt artistically represented clear enough to your liking and thats fine, but what you cannot do is deny a canonical feat.

The White Hot Room is in a higher dimension, outside of all time and space which means denizens of such a dimension would perceive lower dimensions on a different scale.

In higher dimensional space, whilst matter still has the same properties, the comparative scale of things is entirely different:

https://imgur.com/uPTTAs6

https://imgur.com/iAUX6lg

Notice how outside of reality, Eternity becomes palm sized. Comparative scale shifts.

Reed Richards experienced the same:

https://imgur.com/fHuLrCB

https://imgur.com/gbrLsar

From a higher dimension, the star appeared smaller to Reed enabling him to get a macro view of it and more easily carry out "surgery" than if he was in the same dimension (where he would be a speck next to a star and need to operate monumentally sized equipment) however the star was still very much a star and not an image or visualization.

One of the roles of the Phoenix Force is to maintain the multiverse it spawned and keep it healthy:

https://imgur.com/uYDkLgK

It is a "healing force for universes"

As shown in the recent Defenders Beyond. But the idea of the Phoenix healing universes goes back decades with it disinfecting a plague that was killing Eternity, before then cauterizing his wound thereby healing him:

https://imgur.com/BJ6Yed2

https://imgur.com/12THWSj

New X-men however reiterated this concept of the Phoenix being a doctor for universes in the modern era.

Sublime was a sentient bacterial colony dedicated to becoming the dominant life form in reality and was willing to subjugate other life forms and stagnate evolution to retain that dominance:

https://imgur.com/HH3aehO

https://imgur.com/CDYsfex

It eventually got hold of Jeans genetic material and through this gave itself access to the Phoenix Force and its "telekinetic godhood", meaning it could carry out its agenda on a cosmic scale:

https://imgur.com/jW60S8T

The Phoenix Force is dedicated to evolution:

https://imgur.com/rxfTIUj

https://imgur.com/uVB6Oru

As evolution perpetuates the creation cycle, so it had to intervene.

Jean eventually performed surgery on the universe, extracting Sublime from reality:

https://imgur.com/XjqYN4O

https://imgur.com/gmYWUFf

"A coordinated disinfection."

And pondered to herself if...."Surgery complete?"

What she found however was that the Sublime infection had done so much damage to reality that she coudnt simply just remove the bacterial colony (represented as the glowing green orb) she had to amputate that whole future off the multiversal "body" which we see represented by the fading out of the future reality:

https://imgur.com/5oovkFC

https://imgur.com/B3rPbU6

So here Morrison used metaphors and painted the universe as a patient and the Phoenix as a doctor. A doctor who had to amputate a limb (the Here Comes Tomorrow future) in order to save the patent.

Jean asks the Phoenix in the scan above if Sublime is the inevitable future "Is this the future?"

The Phoenix gives her hope by basically saying, not necessarily this is just how things currently stand "This is now" and then the Phoenix goes on to explain that instead of carrying out her Phoenix work and disinfecting reality from Sublime at an earlier stage (616 / the present) she let herself get distracted with her human life and this almost killed the universe. "You lost concentration. Became emotionally engaged. Shock almost killed it. Patient die unless internal heart damage repaired. "

We saw this here:

https://imgur.com/rmWM4aQ

Jean brushed off the Phoenixes warnings in the 616 present to focus on her marital struggles. This exacerbated the Sublime issue leading it to get worse behind the scenes.

Going back to the previous Here Comes Tomorrow scene, Jean laments that her friends dont deserve Sublime as a future. The Phoenix tells her its not over yet and to go to the hospital to treat the wounded patient.

https://imgur.com/5oovkFC

The Phoenix then clarifies that the hospital in question is the White Hot Room accessed in the M'kraan crystal and that she must go to said "hospital" to heal the patients wound, by growing it a better future:

https://imgur.com/OcNqDWe

So again. Morrison is painting the Phoenix Force as multiversal medicine, the Phoenix hosts as doctors of the universe.

You are nothing but a scam artist. You can't debate at all.
You present faulty conclusions and speculations as canon fact when it's really your own flawed viewpoint (or deception). I don't want to nitpick everything you posted because all of it is wrong. That would take all day. Just keep your argument simple.

In summary, what feats by Phoenix lead you to believe she can atomize Sentry instantly?
What feats lead you to believe she won't get atomized or koed herself at the start of the fight (he will act before her)?

Speculation that arise from faulty reasoning of narration is NOT FEATS. All of her showings contradict your made up version of Phoenix.

Your greatest trick is to make up a bogus claim and then post a scan below like it proves the claim. None of your scans prove your initial claims. You constantly use faulty reasoning and deception and hide it with stating words like canon fact. You are a BS artist. Purely simple. Anyone with a brain can see that.

You have to step up your game if you want to deceive me.

Again my points is
Prove (through feats) that she can atomize someone of Sentry's durability instantly.
Prove that she won't be atomize by Sentry, or knocked out at the start of the bell.

Originally posted by h1a8
You are nothing but a scam artist. You can't debate at all.
You present faulty conclusions and speculations as canon fact when it's really your own flawed viewpoint (or deception). I don't want to nitpick everything you posted because all of it is wrong. That would take all day. Just keep your argument simple.

In summary, what feats by Phoenix lead you to believe she can atomize Sentry instantly?
What feats lead you to believe she won't get atomized or koed herself at the start of the fight (he will act before her)?

Speculation that arise from faulty reasoning of narration is NOT FEATS. All of her showings contradict your made up version of Phoenix.

Your greatest trick is to make up a bogus claim and then post a scan below like it proves the claim. None of your scans prove your initial claims. You constantly use faulty reasoning and deception and hide it with stating words like canon fact. You are a BS artist. Purely simple. Anyone with a brain can see that.

You have to step up your game if you want to deceive me.

Again my points is
Prove (through feats) that she can atomize someone of Sentry's durability instantly.
Prove that she won't be atomize by Sentry, or knocked out at the start of the bell.

This post is giving prepubescent hysterics. 🙄

I have posted feats. The issue is you are playing on the purple prose used in said scenes to try and deny them.

Unfortunately for you, the Handbooks verified the take i have presented making it undisputable. WEEP! 😱

Jean Grey as a Phoenix has total telekinetic control of atomic structures up to a universal level. This was depicted in her materializing 616 in the M'Kraan crystal so she could heal it.

Ahead of that Jean Grey amputated the Here Comes Tomorrow reality from existence with a thought.

Both of these feats were artistically depicted and mentioned. Them not being presented in a way to your liking is the toughest of shit

The Handbooks in referencing said scenes give Marvels official line on what happened. That is conclusive evidence.

Such a level of matter manipulation is exponentially greater than Dark Avengers Molecule Man displayed and yet he was easily capable of turning Sentry to dust. Its that simple.

You keep yapping about prove this, prove that when your entire argument is supposition. Hold yourself to the same standards you try and impose.

Me prove Jean could attack before Sentry does? You have yet to prove that he could attack before she could. There is no way of quantifying Sentrys reaction times vs Jeans as Phoenix unless they fight or theres some common point of comparison. A point i literally addressed in my last post.

Youve exhausted your points and provided 1 scan this whole thread.

Unless you have any new evidence to provide youve lost this.

No hard feelings 👆

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
This post is giving prepubescent hysterics. 🙄

I have posted feats. The issue is you are playing on the purple prose used in said scenes to try and deny them.

Unfortunately for you, the Handbooks verified the take i have presented making it undisputable. WEEP! 😱

Jean Grey as a Phoenix has total telekinetic control of atomic structures up to a universal level. This was depicted in her materializing 616 in the M'Kraan crystal so she could heal it.

Ahead of that Jean Grey amputated the Here Comes Tomorrow reality from existence with a thought.

Both of these feats were artistically depicted and mentioned. Them not being presented in a way to your liking is the toughest of shit

The Handbooks in referencing said scenes give Marvels official line on what happened. That is conclusive evidence.

Such a level of matter manipulation is exponentially greater than Dark Avengers Molecule Man displayed and yet he was easily capable of turning Sentry to dust. Its that simple.

You keep yapping about prove this, prove that when your entire argument is supposition. Hold yourself to the same standards you try and impose.

Me prove Jean could attack before Sentry does? You have yet to prove that he could attack before she could. There is no way of quantifying Sentrys reaction times vs Jeans as Phoenix unless they fight or theres some common point of comparison. A point i literally addressed in my last post.

Youve exhausted your points and provided 1 scan this whole thread.

Unless you have any new evidence to provide youve lost this.

No hard feelings 👆

Phoenix never displayed total control of all the atoms in the 616 universe. You keep stating it doesn't make it true.

I quantified Sentry's reaction times and acceleration.
You haven't quantified hers. Characters don't get special attributes without proof. Therefore, by feats Sentry is significantly faster and has faster reactions and perceptions.

You didn't prove the main points I gave. Therefore Phoenix loses.

Originally posted by h1a8
Phoenix never displayed total control of all the atoms in the 616 universe. You keep stating it doesn't make it true.

She did. After severing the Here Comes Tomorrow future off 616, she was told to treat the subsequently badly wounded universe in the M'kraan crystal.

She then materialises said universe within the crystal whilst being said to have total telekinetic control of all of its atoms.

Your only retort was oh its just a visualization and how do you know its 616.

1) I've showed multiple instances within continuity of how the the universe or elements of the universe can shrink in scale, even becoming palm sized when viewed from a higher dimension, yet its still the same universe, with the same properties, you just get a macro view of it.

2) It states its the universe and all of its atoms so you have no on panel justification to say its anything else. Which is the crux of the matter. It being 616 is further highlighted when we are shown past events from 616 stemming from it. A point i have shown. She then applies her power to the universe in her palm and changes Cyclops reaction from this:

https://imgur.com/qhw370c

https://imgur.com/uZpjJTM

https://imgur.com/4Lzf6Sr

to this

https://imgur.com/GpMb3gK

https://imgur.com/xZ21SUX

https://imgur.com/1pw5Tou

Thereby averting the circumstances that caused the Here Comes Tomorrow future she had to amputate.

The handbooks (which reflect and reiterate the canon featured in the comics) verify that it was a universe Jean had in her hand. Not a visualization...the universe:

https://imgur.com/NLy5H8C

and that said universe was 616:

https://imgur.com/hYE2YXA

3)You not being satisfied with how the feat is displayed visually, or it not being flashy enough for you is entirely irrelevant. Shes told to treat the universe in the M'kraan crystal and she materialises what we're told is the universe, whose atoms the Phoenix says she has telekinetic control of. Said feat resulted in her bio being updated to say she has total telekinetic control of atomic structures of a universal scale. Its conclusive. Learn the difference between your preferences and canon. Only the latter counts here. 🙁

Originally posted by h1a8
I quantified Sentry's reaction times and acceleration.
You haven't quantified hers. Characters don't get special attributes without proof. Therefore, by feats Sentry is significantly faster and has faster reactions and perceptions.

Nope you performed a guesstimate based on real world figures that favoured Sentry. The key is, the comic didnt quantify Sentrys feat. We dont know the type of gun, or the type of bullet, things which massively affect the speed of the fired shot. All unknowns. You dont get to decide those variables for Marvel then and assert them as fact in a versus debate, whilst turning around and saying I cant quantfy Jeans feat with the sniper gun as that sniper bullet doesnt look normal 😱

Its a sea of unknowns. The comic never gave the information required, to put conclusive numbers down. So in light of that you are in no position to assert that its a canonical fact that Sentry has faster reaction times than Jean as Phoenix. Theyve both displayed an undeterminable degree of superhuman reaction time and theres no common foe theyve both faced or common scenario theyve reacted in for us to draw a comparison and make a determination. So the way to handle this objectively is to remove the proposed strategy of him being able to speedblitz her before she can do anything, because you dont have the canonical proof.

Originally posted by h1a8
You didn't prove the main points I gave. Therefore Phoenix loses.

I did. However you dont take losing well and are therefore being pedantic and obstructive, ignoring explicit canonical evidence, making evidential demands on me whilst providing 1 scan the whole thread and pulling numbers out your booty as a misguided substitute for the 1 bit of evidence you do have not quantifying a damn thing. 😬

The harm you've done to your credibility in this thread is astronomical. 😱

Unless your next reply is the introduction of new evidence (comic book scans specifically) then you will get not a single reply more.

You've had enough of my attention.

I've done what i set out to do. The votes have spoken.

Good day to you 😉

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
She did. After severing the Here Comes Tomorrow future off 616, she was told to treat the subsequently badly wounded universe in the M'kraan crystal.

She then materialises said universe within the crystal whilst being said to have total telekinetic control of all of its atoms.

Your only retort was oh its just a visualization and how do you know its 616.

1) I've showed multiple instances within continuity of how the the universe or elements of the universe can shrink in scale, even becoming palm sized when viewed from a higher dimension, yet its still the same universe, with the same properties, you just get a macro view of it.

2) It states its the universe and all of its atoms so you have no on panel justification to say its anything else. Which is the crux of the matter. It being 616 is further highlighted when we are shown past events from 616 stemming from it. A point i have shown. She then applies her power to the universe in her palm and changes Cyclops reaction from this:

https://imgur.com/qhw370c

https://imgur.com/uZpjJTM

https://imgur.com/4Lzf6Sr

to this

https://imgur.com/GpMb3gK

https://imgur.com/xZ21SUX

https://imgur.com/1pw5Tou

Thereby averting the circumstances that caused the Here Comes Tomorrow future she had to amputate.

The handbooks (which reflect and reiterate the canon featured in the comics) verify that it was a universe Jean had in her hand. Not a visualization...the universe:

https://imgur.com/NLy5H8C

and that said universe was 616:

https://imgur.com/hYE2YXA

3)You not being satisfied with how the feat is displayed visually, or it not being flashy enough for you is entirely irrelevant. Shes told to treat the universe in the M'kraan crystal and she materialises what we're told is the universe, whose atoms the Phoenix says she has telekinetic control of. Said feat resulted in her bio being updated to say she has total telekinetic control of atomic structures of a universal scale. Its conclusive. Learn the difference between your preferences and canon. Only the latter counts here. 🙁

Here's your claim:
Phoenix (well the white Phoenix) CAN control every atom in the 616 universe and therefore she can atomize Sentry at will.

Here we go:
1. Feats from characters from Future timelines (alternate futures) are not allowed.
2. White Phoenix altered Scott's path (via TP) which changed the future. This is not the same thing as demonstrating control over all the atoms in the 616 universe.

Those 2 facts dismiss your claim.

3. In every appearance, Jean with the PF (even Dark Phoenix) has never displayed the ability to control every atom in the universe.
4. The PF is a glass canon. It (and all of it's hosts) has been damaged, hurt, defeated, etc. multiple times. It is not indestructible by any means.
5. She was in the White hot room when doing that. There is no leaving the battlefield here.

Nope you performed a guesstimate based on real world figures that favoured Sentry. The key is, the comic didnt quantify Sentrys feat. We dont know the type of gun, or the type of bullet, things which massively affect the speed of the fired shot. All unknowns. You dont get to decide those variables for Marvel then and assert them as fact in a versus debate, whilst turning around and saying I cant quantfy Jeans feat with the sniper gun as that sniper bullet doesnt look normal 😱

The feat you posted had several problems.
1. That wasn't a bullet but some type of electronic device.
2. The distance the projectile covered greatly increased the time to react. Even if it was a rifle round going twice the speed then the fact that it was over 100 times the distance makes the feat worse.
3. You didn't post the issue number. I want to see if it is canon, since I saw Professor X not in a wheel chair.

Its a sea of unknowns. The comic never gave the information required, to put conclusive numbers down. So in light of that you are in no position to assert that its a canonical fact that Sentry has faster reaction times than Jean as Phoenix. Theyve both displayed an undeterminable degree of superhuman reaction time and theres no common foe theyve both faced or common scenario theyve reacted in for us to draw a comparison and make a determination. So the way to handle this objectively is to remove the proposed strategy of him being able to speedblitz her before she can do anything, because you dont have the canonical proof.

Originally posted by h1a8
Here's your claim:
Phoenix (well the white Phoenix) CAN control every atom in the 616 universe and therefore she can atomize Sentry at will.

[QUOTE=17656416]Originally posted by h1a8
[B]Here we go:
1. Feats from characters from Future timelines (alternate futures) are not allowed.
2. White Phoenix altered Scott's path (via TP) which changed the future. This is not the same thing as demonstrating control over all the atoms in the 616 universe.

1 - The feat involved a time displaced 616 Jean Grey. Who after being killed in New X-men 150, was reborn from a Phoenix Egg to deal with Sublime:

https://imgur.com/NLy5H8C

Which is why in New X-men 154 Jean verified 616 Scott as her Scott and why it was 616 Scott that she had to urge to move on from her, his Jean Grey.

https://imgur.com/GpMb3gK

https://imgur.com/xZ21SUX

https://imgur.com/1pw5Tou

Phoenix Endsong 616 Jean Grey, referred to her experiences in the Here Comes Tomorrow timeline:

"I can see myself doing it AGAIN. Here I come tomorrow.....Little bug people. A built in obsolescence....Evolutionary dead-end. Burning away what doesnt work"

https://imgur.com/2WsaK7Z

New X-men 153:

https://imgur.com/O5nX0NZ

https://imgur.com/lv9FWfh

"The Termid species had an inbuilt genetic obsolescence.

https://imgur.com/mDQfPYb

Furthermore you are in no position to talk about which characters are allowed and not allowed when your biased ass is arguing with MM Sentry. Something strictly forbidden in the forum unless outlined in the opening thread post. Which in this thread it was NOT! The bloody audacity! 😆

2 - Which would be a problem if the telepathic nudge she gave Scott was the demonstration of telekinetic control that ive been talking about. Bro your comprehension capacity is not at the level it needs to be to have a successful debate. If after all the posts ive presented on the matter, if after that long ass breakdown i typed for your benefit you think that telepathic nudge was the demonstration ive been talking about, then youre a lost cause. Look back, read, process, repeat just to make sure then come try again. 🙄

Originally posted by h1a8
Those 2 facts dismiss your claim.

They really dont. But you tried and thats what counts thumbsup

Originally posted by h1a8
3. In every appearance, Jean with the PF (even Dark Phoenix) has never displayed the ability to control every atom in the universe.
4. The PF is a glass canon. It (and all of it's hosts) has been damaged, hurt, defeated, etc. multiple times. It is not indestructible by any means.
5. She was in the White hot room when doing that. There is no leaving the battlefield here.

3) Of course not. Because thats a level of power and mastery she didnt reach until the culmination of New X-men's events in 2004. She was Dark Phoenix in 1980 many issues and decades prior. Its called character development. Are you with me now mate? LOL

4) Nope. Your understanding just isnt there. You havent done the necessary background reading ahead of making all of these misguided assertions and to be honest even if you had read them this thread casts doubt over whether you possess the mental capacity to interpret them as the writer intended.
Indestructible doesnt mean not being able to take damage. It means not being able to be destroyed.

Ive explained this in this very thread. That firebird is not the sum of the Phoenix Force. The Phoenix Force is the sum and substance of all life, it is all energy and matter. Sentry is made up of Phoenix Force. Damn even Aunt May is made up of Phoenix Force.

That firebird is an avatar. A representation of the PF's will, within reality.

Said avatar is inextinguishable, mutable life force:

https://imgur.com/4E5ewZA

https://imgur.com/hsIFaiY

That avatar can be shattered, even absorbed and metabolized and it'll be absolutely fine:

https://imgur.com/YCaT5vm

That is true indestructibility. Not a Hulk or Thor like brick.

The Phoenix Force is the only fundamental force that is a constant. All the others die at the end of the universe whilst the Phoenix perpetuates the creation cycle:

https://imgur.com/pjuobG6

https://imgur.com/wupM3vU

https://imgur.com/Is67e9G

It by canon cannot die and cannot be fully destroyed. The issue was your flawed grasp of indestructibility.

Originally posted by h1a8
It was a semi-automatic handgun. That means it was chambered in 9mm, 22 long rifle (those are in smaller handguns), 40, or 45 caliber. The average muzzle velocity is approximately 1200fps. The lowest muzzle velocity is just shy of 1000fps. The maximum muzzle velocity is above 1400fps (i've seen above 1800fps in some rounds). Using the conservative 1000fps is more than reasonable to get a lower bound for the feat.

Theres also bullet grain to take into consideration that can slow down muzzle velocity by 15% just going from 124g to 147:

https://www.ammunitiontogo.com/lodge/bullet-grain/

But the heaviest 9mm grain 158 would slow down the velocity even further.

Then there's temperature to consider. All in all giving lower bounds than that 1000fps.

Variables. Variables

1000 ft per sec is approximately 681mph. Travelling 10ft at that speed equates to roughly 0.010012 secs.

Originally posted by h1a8
The feat you posted had several problems.
1. That wasn't a bullet but some type of electronic device.
2. The distance the projectile covered greatly increased the time to react. Even if it was a rifle round going twice the speed then the fact that it was over 100 times the distance makes the feat worse.
3. You didn't post the issue number. I want to see if it is canon, since I saw Professor X not in a wheel chair.

Nice try, but even if we accept your lowest speed for a semi-automatic handgun bullet (which you must provide sources) then it is still quantifiable and thus better than anything quantifiable feat done by Phoenix.

1) Incorrect. It was a Shi'ar bullet, fired from an advanced Shi'ar sniper gun by Lilandra:

https://imgur.com/kp97W0r

https://imgur.com/b13Q5VB

https://imgur.com/4lzkf4s

2) Given all of your assumptions above, it would be reasonable for me to assert that the sniper gun and ammunition of the Shi'ar is exponentially faster than the most advanced sniper bullet we have today the .220 Swift which can reach speeds of 3180mph. Especially given it was the Empress of the Shi'ar who would have access to the most advanced tech in her empire. So lets continue with this ridiculous exercise and say the ammunition could travel 2 to 3 times what we have as a conservative estimate. That'd make for a range of 6360 to 9540mph

Lets pick a middle value of around 8000mph.

The tower wasnt particular high and they werent that far ahead of it so lets say there was about 150 ft to be crossed. That'd take that bullet 0.0127841 seconds to reach the Professor.

Then when you factor in the fact that Jean wasnt stood there primed and ready for a telegraphed attack, unlike Sentry, it makes the feats entirely comparable.

See what utter nonsense this is trying to apply this level of real world science to a comic book? But you want to be a sore loser and indulge this absurdity so lets continue.

3) Hold yourself to the same standards. Where are your scans? Where are your scans?! 😱 Youve posted 1 single scan. Stop with the demands for evidence when you have provided next to nada. Its absurd. How do you have the audacity? LOL. Ive got no issue providing the issue number though. It was New X-men 133. Enjoy the read 🙂

Lets now talk about your fave topic....propensity! Can you show where its in Sentrys character (without any external influences like Norman Osborne taking advantage of his fragile mental state and urging him to do wrong) to kill someone as the 1st move? 😖hifty:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
1 - The feat involved a time displaced 616 Jean Grey. Who after being killed in New X-men 150, was reborn from a Phoenix Egg to deal with Sublime:

https://imgur.com/NLy5H8C

Which is why in New X-men 154 Jean verified 616 Scott as her Scott and why it was 616 Scott that she had to urge to move on from her, his Jean Grey.

https://imgur.com/GpMb3gK

https://imgur.com/xZ21SUX

https://imgur.com/1pw5Tou

Phoenix Endsong 616 Jean Grey, referred to her experiences in the [B]Here Comes Tomorrow timeline:

"I can see myself doing it AGAIN. Here I come tomorrow.....Little bug people. A built in obsolescence....Evolutionary dead-end. Burning away what doesnt work"

https://imgur.com/2WsaK7Z

New X-men 153:

https://imgur.com/O5nX0NZ

https://imgur.com/lv9FWfh

"The Termid species had an inbuilt genetic obsolescence.

https://imgur.com/mDQfPYb

Furthermore you are in no position to talk about which characters are allowed and not allowed when your biased ass is arguing with MM Sentry. Something strictly forbidden in the forum unless outlined in the opening thread post. Which in this thread it was NOT! The bloody audacity! 😆
[/B]

My use of MM Sentry had nothing to do with the thread. I was just stating which version of Sentry can beat Phoenix. That was my slick way of conceding who wins the actual thread. Duh.

Let's assume that White Phoenix of the Crown is as powerful as you are making her out to be. Why create and debate a spite thread? Obviously the OP wants standard Phoenix vs Standard Stable Sentry. That's a good fight. MM Sentry vs Standard Phoenix is spite as well as Standard Stable Sentry vs White Phoenix of the Crown. MM Sentry vs White Phoenix of the Crown might be interesting though (Sentry wins that).

2 - Which would be a problem if the telepathic nudge she gave Scott was the demonstration of telekinetic control that ive been talking about. Bro your comprehension capacity is not at the level it needs to be to have a successful debate. If after all the posts ive presented on the matter, if after that long ass breakdown i typed for your benefit you think that telepathic nudge was the demonstration ive been talking about, then youre a lost cause. Look back, read, process, repeat just to make sure then come try again. 🙄

They really dont. But you tried and thats what counts thumbsup

3) Of course not. Because thats a level of power and mastery she didnt reach until the culmination of New X-men's events in 2004. She was Dark Phoenix in 1980 many issues and decades prior. Its called character development. Are you with me now mate? LOL

4) Nope. Your understanding just isnt there. You havent done the necessary background reading ahead of making all of these misguided assertions and to be honest even if you had read them this thread casts doubt over whether you possess the mental capacity to interpret them as the writer intended.
Indestructible doesnt mean not being able to take damage. It means not being able to be destroyed.

Ive explained this in this very thread. That firebird is not the sum of the Phoenix Force. The Phoenix Force is the sum and substance of all life, it is all energy and matter. Sentry is made up of Phoenix Force. Damn even Aunt May is made up of Phoenix Force.

That firebird is an avatar. A representation of the PF's will, within reality.

Said avatar is inextinguishable, mutable life force:

https://imgur.com/4E5ewZA

https://imgur.com/hsIFaiY

That avatar can be shattered, even absorbed and metabolized and it'll be absolutely fine:

https://imgur.com/YCaT5vm

That is true indestructibility. Not a Hulk or Thor like brick.

The Phoenix Force is the only fundamental force that is a constant. All the others die at the end of the universe whilst the Phoenix perpetuates the creation cycle:

https://imgur.com/pjuobG6

https://imgur.com/wupM3vU

https://imgur.com/Is67e9G

It by canon cannot die and cannot be fully destroyed. The issue was your flawed grasp of indestructibility.

Theres also bullet grain to take into consideration that can slow down muzzle velocity by 15% just going from 124g to 147:

https://www.ammunitiontogo.com/lodge/bullet-grain/

But the heaviest 9mm grain 158 would slow down the velocity even further.

Then there's temperature to consider. All in all giving lower bounds than that 1000fps.

Variables. Variables

1000 ft per sec is approximately 681mph. Travelling 10ft at that speed equates to roughly 0.010012 secs.

Sentry started from rest and therefore accelerated. He didn't move with constant velocity. You must use the formulas
1. t = d/v to determine the time it takes a bullet to travel 2 inches.
Then use
2. a = 2d/t^2 (from d =1/2 *a* t^2) to determine the acceleration Sentry underwent.
3. We can use this acceleration to answer other questions like, "How long will it take Sentry to cover 0.5km?"

1) Incorrect. It was a Shi'ar bullet, fired from an advanced Shi'ar sniper gun by Lilandra:

https://imgur.com/kp97W0r

https://imgur.com/b13Q5VB

https://imgur.com/4lzkf4s

2) Given all of your assumptions above, it would be reasonable for me to assert that the sniper gun and ammunition of the Shi'ar is exponentially faster than the most advanced sniper bullet we have today the .220 Swift which can reach speeds of 3180mph. Especially given it was the Empress of the Shi'ar who would have access to the most advanced tech in her empire. So lets continue with this ridiculous exercise and say the ammunition could travel 2 to 3 times what we have as a conservative estimate. That'd make for a range of 6360 to 9540mph

Lets pick a middle value of around 8000mph.

The tower wasnt particular high and they werent that far ahead of it so lets say there was about 150 ft to be crossed. That'd take that bullet 0.0127841 seconds to reach the Professor.

Then when you factor in the fact that Jean wasnt stood there primed and ready for a telegraphed attack, unlike Sentry, it makes the feats entirely comparable.

I'm not going to sit here and lie though. I'm not that type of person (like Carv, etc). That is a very good feat (in terms of perception speed and reactions). That feat does prove that Jean does have superhuman reflexes and what not. So she might not be a statue to Sentry Afterall. The feat is still inferior to Sentry's though.

See what utter nonsense this is trying to apply this level of real world science to a comic book? But you want to be a sore loser and indulge this absurdity so lets continue.

3) Hold yourself to the same standards. Where are your scans? Where are your scans?! 😱 Youve posted 1 single scan. Stop with the demands for evidence when you have provided next to nada. Its absurd. How do you have the audacity? LOL. Ive got no issue providing the issue number though. It was New X-men 133. Enjoy the read 🙂

Lets now talk about your fave topic....propensity! Can you show where its in Sentrys character (without any external influences like Norman Osborne taking advantage of his fragile mental state and urging him to do wrong) to kill someone as the 1st move? 😖hifty:

Sentry has blitzed people from the onset. I can name multiple instances of him doing so. But I'll argue a fight where he doesn't. Sounds fair?

Originally posted by h1a8
What does this have to do with the forum rules? White Phoenix of the Crown is from an alternate timeline (that doesn't exist anymore). Feats from characters from alternate timelines and futures are not allowed. No exceptions.

White Phoenix of the Crown isnt from a different timeline. It was a time displaced 616 Jean Grey who as i showed in my last post, referred to 616 events and after getting rid of the Here Comes Tomorrow future claimed 616 as the one her friends came from, claimed 616 Scott as her Scott and changed the future of 616.

As also shown in my last post, when 616 Jean Grey reappeared in 616 in Endsong not only did she recall the events of Here Comes Tomorrow and state explicitly that it would be hell going through it again, but by the end of Endsong she reverted to White Phoenix again:

https://imgur.com/uMHUmey

Originally posted by h1a8
My use of MM Sentry had nothing to do with the thread. I was just stating which version of Sentry can beat Phoenix. That was my slick way of conceding who wins the actual thread. Duh.

Why be slick and not just have some integrity and concede outright? Why bring fanboyism and ego to the table unnecessarily? Shouldve just said Phoenix wins but i think MM Sentry would beat Phoenix. That wouldve been an adult contribution.

Originally posted by h1a8
Let's assume that White Phoenix of the Crown is as powerful as you are making her out to be. Why create and debate a spite thread? Obviously the OP wants standard Phoenix vs Standard Stable Sentry. That's a good fight. MM Sentry vs Standard Phoenix is spite as well as Standard Stable Sentry vs White Phoenix of the Crown. MM Sentry vs White Phoenix of the Crown might be interesting though (Sentry wins that).

Originally posted by h1a8
Using TP to nudge someone isn't proof that one can control all the atoms in a universe.

Bro youre making me lose brain cells. Its like you either dont read posts and skim them, or you do but you just dot get anything. The understanding just isnt there. I told you in my very last post that the TELEPATHIC nudging of Cyclops was not the TELEKINETIC control of all of the atoms of the universe ive been talking about all along. I also said in my last post that if after all the posts and breakdowns ive typed for your benefit, that thats what you thought then theres no helping you.

So in reading this, dont just fire off a response, instead look back at page 5 of this thread, read my ALL my posts on it and you will clearly see what scene relates to the telekinetic control of all the universes atoms. If you come back still clueless then this debate is over 😆

Originally posted by h1a8
I digress. This doesn't matter anyway since you are arguing the wrong Phoenix here. Standard Phoenix vs Standard Stable Sentry. My point that she can lose a forum fight via ko, temp death, etc.

I've got history with the OP. We're old friends of near 20yrs. Trust me he was referring to Phoenix hosts in general and the Phoenix Force. White Phoenix isnt a separate character, its a state of mind that the most skilled Phoenix hosts can reach. Endsong saw Jean cycle through green, red and white Phoenix states across 5 pages of the same issue as her state of mind changed lol.

I ve never disagreed on that point. Of course anyone can lose a forum fight. Did you miss my 1st post in this thread:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I remember this thread. Memories! 😂

This was when Whirly was in the midst of his troll era so i ignored it. 😉

If this is a Phoenix host we're talking about then this is a battle. The average host wins 6/10, the most powerful win 9/10

If we're talking the Phoenix Force, then this thread is ridiculous. 10/10 PF wins.

Its all down to who theyre facing and the battle conditions.

Originally posted by h1a8
Increasing the grain without increasing the powder will decrease the muzzle velocity. Duh. The numbers I gave are from all standard grains of semi-automatic handgun bullets. Lol temperature of air doesn't affect muzzle velocity (velocity a few inches from barrel) to any significant degree.

There are multiple grains to consider, temperature and humidity. Plus we're getting too specific here in applying the real world to comics. A work of fiction where real world physics are consistently contradicted on panel. You cant be arguing how a man can break the laws of physics whilst in the same breath imposing real world physics inflexibly into the comic book world. Sentrys fast, Jeans fast, until theres a direct point of comparison either they fight each other, figures are given in the comic or they fight a common enemy we just cant make assertions regarding comparative reaction time. Just rule out speed blitzing as an effective strategy.

Originally posted by h1a8
Sentry started from rest and therefore accelerated. He didn't move with constant velocity. You must use the formulas
1. t = d/v to determine the time it takes a bullet to travel 2 inches.
Then use
2. a = 2d/t^2 (from d =1/2 *a* t^2) to determine the acceleration Sentry underwent.
3. We can use this acceleration to answer other questions like, "How long will it take Sentry to cover 0.5km?"

This is ridiculous bro Come on. Just rule out speed blitzing and continue the debate 😆

Originally posted by h1a8
We can't assume the bullet is faster than a standard rifle bullet? Why should it be, logically? You want the bullet to be accurate, not necessarily faster than a rifle round. As long as the bullet is faster than a human can respond to is all that matters. But to be reasonable (objective) we can assume the bullet moves at the slowest rifle speeds (although the bullet doesn't not appear to be aerodynamic like a real bullet).

What are you talking about? Velocity positively affects accuracy. The higher the velocity the less time wind and gravity has to affect a bullets trajectory mid flight.

https://www.fieldandstream.com/guns/why-bullet-velocity-matters/#:~:text=Velocity%20Makes%20Bullets%20Hit%20Harder&text=Looking%20at%20the%20original%20.,foot%2Dpounds%20or%207.5%20percent.

Originally posted by h1a8
It was possible Jean sensed the sniper when the other x-men told Professor x to look out. You can see jean concentrating on the sniper. So that's a form of telegraphing.

That'd be conjecture on your part thats not actually supported by the visual depiction or narrative of the comic. Shes just got off a plane with the Professor and is surveying her new surroundings as you'd expect, with no idea that there was any danger. Theres a shout of "Professor X! Look out" with no information about what the danger was, where it was coming from and who from as the sniper fires and Jean catches this bullet on the fly. That is contrary to the definition of a telegraphed action.

Sentry is there listening to a speech from Void who has a gun pointed towards someones head. That is whats telegraphed. Be objective.

Originally posted by h1a8
I'm not going to sit here and lie though. I'm not that type of person (like Carv, etc). That is a very good feat (in terms of perception speed and reactions). That feat does prove that Jean does have superhuman reflexes and what not. So she might not be a statue to Sentry Afterall. The feat is still inferior to Sentry's though.

You cant assert as a fact that its worse than Sentrys when there are too many variables and all of your calculations are guesstimates based on comic book art. Its ridiculous. The only logical and objective way to progress this is to accept that both have superhuman reaction and no ones blitzing anyone in this fight. So remove it as a strategy and focus on the other abilities the characters can bring into play.

Originally posted by h1a8
Sentry has blitzed people from the onset. I can name multiple instances of him doing so. But I'll argue a fight where he doesn't. Sounds fair?

Entirely, as based on the feats we've presented it just cannot be ascertained who definitely has faster reaction time.