Originally posted by h1a8
1. Dude I caught you in a lie. You tried to use a different comic scan as if it was from the same comic to show Sentry blew up. Sentry never blew up. He disappeared without any remnants. It was a bright flash and poof he was gone. Yet you posted scans of MM blowing Sentry up as if it was from the same story. You are a scammer and lose credibility due to the troll tactics and deception. Margana explains in the same comic about erasing the avengers from the time line as an explanation of what happened to Bob. You will lose all credibility if you want to argue that she someone blew up Sentry (and not erased him) despite her words and writer's intent.
And it's called artistic expression. A writer/artist can dipict someone being erased in any form they choose. As long as no remnants remain of that being.
Absolute nonsense. Ive distinguished multiple times in this thread the two confrontations where Sentry has been blown up (By Morgan Le Fay and by MM)
You kept saying he was erased from existence without initially highlighting which of the two incidents you were misinterpreting as this erasure from existence. I then replied saying he had never been erased from existence and posted scans of both incidents saying none featured him getting erased from existence:
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
He stopped a nerfed Molecule Man. You have to take that into consideration. Not a Molecule Man at the height of his powers.The MM of that Dark Avengers era was doing parlour tricks and had no showings beyond herald level. He had been disassociated with the cosmic cube origins by Bendis and was displaying vastly reduced power levels.
Your perception of him doesnt consider this context and is thus [b]FLAWED. INACCURATE. NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE.
😬Erased from existence is being written out of existence through reality or chronal manipulation so that said being never existed in reality. Thats not what happened to Sentry.
He got blown up 😬
Erased from existence? 😕
Get a grip 😆
As stated by himself, he remains alive if an atom of himself exists and he can manipulate matter to regenerate. However the output of a star is beyond the limits of his durability.
He had to be saved. [/B]
Not once did I say a single sentence saying that those two links were from the same incident or comic. So not only can you not interpret comics, but you cant interpret simple text either. This is embarrassing 🙄
Ive already debunked your erased from existence nonsense. Sentry was blown up and the comic in reference to this said Sentry was brutally killed by Morgan. Please show a scan of Morgan saying with that explosion she erased Sentry from existence?
I know exactly what part you've misinterpreted. Allow me to correctly interpret this comic for you. Morgan goes back to Dooms past to when he was a child in order to knife him to death in his bed. She then reconsiders saying she wants him to die knowing why hes being punished:
In the present she is killed by Sentry. She then travels back to the present from the past and blows him up in a huge energy explosion.
She reappears stating that if she is killed again she will travel back to their childhoods (just like she did with Doom) and remove them from existence by killing them in their childhoods:
Can you show us where Morgan stabbed or otherwise killed Sentry in his childhood? As thats the method she was shown to have had in store for Doom and what she was now proposing to use on the assembled "heroes."
We know she never did this to Sentry as if she did reality wouldve been altered and the heroes wouldve never known Sentry.
As ive stated all along, as the comic made abundantly clear she just blew him up.
To serve your agenda you misrepresented this simple killing so you could spread nonsense on this forum.
I have prevented that. You are conclusively wrong on this point. I do not want to hear any erasure from existence nonsense again. She blew his ass up. Simple.
Originally posted by h1a8
2. I'm referring to Sentry at his best, not at his worse. At his best he can reform from disintegration and erasure. Nothing less.
Doesn't work like that im afraid. His regeneration is a random occurrence that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. Its something he doesnt know the workings of and something he cant control. Its an unknown quantity that cant be relied upon as demonstrated explicitly with his recent showings and therefore not something that can be regarded as part of his standard repertoire. Moving on.....
Originally posted by h1a8
3. So you admit to using a character's lows against another character's highs? Shameful. You ignore your trolling with new arguments to cover it up. Dude you lost all credibility. You are not a respected debater but a clever troll.
I never stated Sentry would win this fight. I stated Sentry at his best (whether you call him void try or void is irrelevant) would win. If you concede to voidtry or whatever version of Sentry beating Phoenix then the debate is over. If you don't then let's continue the debate.
What are you waffling about? I have no need to concede as im handing your ass to you. Have you seen how the votes have changed since ive been contributing to this thread? Your points are poorly constructed and based on the most tenuous and misinterpreted evidence.
Originally posted by h1a8
4. How a character fights in battle is everything. It proves propensity and ability. Characters just don't sit there and allow you to do what you want. Phoenix may never get an opportunity to do anything if Sentry acts first. If Phoenix never did a certain tactic in a battle then why would she do so in a forum fight? Propensity dude.
Lets be clear. You asserted that the only feats and powers relevant to this versus match were those used in a battle scenario which was ludicrous. I highlighted how that isnt a forum rule and that instead was a parameter you had concocted to try and swing the debate in your favour as you were losing. That status is still very much current my friend.
As per the PIS rules in place in this forum, characters demonstrating various abilities on panel, but then not using their full range of abilities in battle scenarios is PIS and is not a reason to assert that said abilities cannot be referenced and made use of by forum members when detailing a versus match up.
No Mentioning Events of PISPlot Induced Stupidity, or PIS, is when characters don't use their abilities or skills to the fullest extent as shown before, even within their personality ranges, for the sake of the story plotline. It makes lesser powered characters an actual challenge against higher powered characters in the comics. Examples of PIS include Flash stories lasting longer than three panels, or Toy Man as a threat to Superman.
As long as the abilities have been demonstrated by the character, are inherent to the character as standard and have been used on panel at the level the debater is referring to in the forum match then it is irrelevant whether said powers have been used in a battle scenario or not. They just need to have been used.
Get acquainted with the rules youve been touting.
Originally posted by h1a8
5. Full capacity I agree. But using a character's low showings (in which character has higher ones that contradict) against another character's high showings is trolling and certainly not using full capacity for both.
Who's doing that? The problem is, Sentrys highest showings are nowhere near the level required to beat the strongest of Phoenix hosts in a PIS exempt matchup and certainly not the Phoenix Force itself of which Sentry is just a facet of.
Whereas the feats of his you're so enamoured with actually arent that great when dissected e.g. his regeneration.
What low showings of Sentry's am i relying on? 😕
Originally posted by h1a8
6. Travel in space speed doesn't equal battle speed. Sentry would view her as a statue. A human can travel at many times faster than light, provided they can spend time to accelerate to that speed. GLs can travel far faster than Phoenix can in space but they would be a statue to a real speedster in battle.
I really question that brain of yours. All of reality, all space, all time is determined by the Phoenix Force. There is no power or ability beyond its ability to make use of. It is the source of all powers. When are you going to read this and let that compute and get saved in those cells? Sentry existence is facilitated by the Phoenix Force. His powers and everything he can do are facilitated by the Phoenix Force. Yet youre telling me he can fly faster than and react faster than its most powerful host?
To travel through space at many times the speed of light and yet have the visual processing capacity and decision making speed to skilfully encircle planets (not crashing into them and everything else in your path) in order to slingshot yourself deeper into space and opening human sized stargates on the fly ahead of you and not missing them whilst flying at such insane speeds is a conclusive demonstration of supreme reaction time in addition to flying speeds in excess of anything thats been quantified for Sentry:
Please show us such reaction times from Sentry
Plus shes caught herald level beings off guard with her fighting speed, blasting them all over the shop:
all this talk about propensity and Jean wants to go finish off Firelord and kill him. Sentry would be toast lol
More Phoenix host reaction times. Dodging a herald racing towards her at extreme speed and catching her mid flight:
Ive also noticed that as the debate has progressed youve smartly shied away from focusing on the Phoenix Force itself and moved to exclusively talking about Jean Grey.
I take it you conceded on this nonsense?:
Originally posted by h1a8Even if the thread was about PF then there is no way it is beating Bob's most powerful form. Mm >>>>> PF. PF can't stop Bob from reforming, assuming it can even kill Bob to begin with.
😆
Originally posted by h1a8
7. Sentry has many durability feats that make him more durable than Hercules and Thor. So separating his atoms is one hell of a feat.
All irrelevant when he cant survive the energy output of the Sun and the Phoenix Force powers the universes stars and its hosts eat them for breakfast:
Phoenix at best is more durable and can output energy levels that exceed Sentrys stated durability limit. So stop talking about how durable he is if the limits of said durability are able to be conclusively exceeded by the character hes pitted against here. Its irrelevant waffle. Just accept his durability isnt saving him and MMs feat of disintegration is conclusively something both Jean and the Phoenix can do because both wield more power than that nerfed MM. Thats the crux of the matter.
Originally posted by h1a8
8. Prove that it is canon that MM was amped with beyonders energies when he faced Galactus. Stating it's canon is not proof.
This has zero to do with our debate because that MM was from 7yrs after your Sentry incident and possessed the power of the Beyonders. Are you just trying to add filler to your barebones argument by going off on a tangent?
We shall conclude our Phoenix vs Sentry discussion and then if you want to talk about that MM vs Galactus incident we can have a separate follow up discussion thats not a problem at all.
Ahead of that....keep your ass on topic 😱
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Lets be clear. You asserted that the only feats and powers relevant to this versus match were those used in a battle scenario which was ludicrous. I highlighted how that isnt a forum rule and that instead was a parameter you had concocted to try and swing the debate in your favour as you were losing. That status is still very much current my friend.
If she never done any in battle then you would have a hard time proving. It's possible though.
As per the PIS rules in place in this forum, characters demonstrating various abilities on panel, but then not using their full range of abilities in battle scenarios is PIS and is not a reason to assert that said abilities cannot be referenced and made use of by forum members when detailing a versus match up.
What does PIS have to do with anything?
As long as the abilities have been demonstrated by the character, are inherent to the character as standard and have been used on panel at the level the debater is referring to in the forum match then it is irrelevant whether said powers have been used in a battle scenario or not. They just need to have been used.
Get acquainted with the rules youve been touting.
The onus is still on you to prove propensity. No battle feats = hard (but not impossible) case. These aren't member controlled characters.
Who's doing that? The problem is, Sentrys highest showings are nowhere near the level required to beat the strongest of Phoenix hosts in a PIS exempt matchup and certainly not the Phoenix Force itself of which Sentry is just a facet of.
You are when you stated the sun disintegrating Sentry (which wasn't instant). That's a low showing. Sentry has durability feats above that.
Whereas the feats of his you're so enamoured with actually arent that great when dissected e.g. his regeneration.
What low showings of Sentry's am i relying on? 😕
Sentry is at least as durable as Hercules, Thor, etc. So atomizing him is one hell of a feat. You have to show that Phoenix can atomize someone as durable. We don't use no limit scenarios. You must provide feats.
I really question that brain of yours. All of reality, all space, all time is determined by the Phoenix Force. There is no power or ability beyond its ability to make use of. It is the source of all powers. When are you going to read this and let that compute and get saved in those cells? Sentry existence is facilitated by the Phoenix Force. His powers and everything he can do are facilitated by the Phoenix Force. Yet youre telling me he can fly faster than and react faster than its most powerful host?
To travel through space at many times the speed of light and yet have the visual processing capacity and decision making speed to skilfully encircle planets (not crashing into them and everything else in your path) in order to slingshot yourself deeper into space and opening human sized stargates on the fly ahead of you and not missing them whilst flying at such insane speeds is a conclusive demonstration of supreme reaction time in addition to flying speeds in excess of anything thats been quantified for Sentry:
https://imgur.com/jbmGBIS Mumbo Jumbo. Without feats then she doesn't get said abilities (and the level of said abilities). Provide feats of her atomizing characters with Sentry level (or higher) DURABILITY.
Please show us such reaction times from Sentry
Plus shes caught herald level beings off guard with her fighting speed, blasting them all over the shop:
all this talk about propensity and Jean wants to go finish off Firelord and kill him. Sentry would be toast lol
More Phoenix host reaction times. Dodging a herald racing towards her at extreme speed and catching her mid flight:
Ive also noticed that as the debate has progressed youve smartly shied away from focusing on the Phoenix Force itself and moved to exclusively talking about Jean Grey.
I take it you conceded on this nonsense?:
😆
All irrelevant when he cant survive the energy output of the Sun and the Phoenix Force powers the universes stars and its hosts eat them for breakfast:
Phoenix at best is more durable and can output energy levels that exceed Sentrys stated durability limit. So stop talking about how durable he is if the limits of said durability are able to be conclusively exceeded by the character hes pitted against here. Its irrelevant waffle. Just accept his durability isnt saving him and MMs feat of disintegration is conclusively something both Jean and the Phoenix can do because both wield more power than that nerfed MM. Thats the crux of the matter.
This has zero to do with our debate because that MM was from 7yrs after your Sentry incident and possessed the power of the Beyonders. Are you just trying to add filler to your barebones argument by going off on a tangent?
We shall conclude our Phoenix vs Sentry discussion and then if you want to talk about that MM vs Galactus incident we can have a separate follow up discussion thats not a problem at all.
Ahead of that....keep your ass on topic 😱
Wrong. Space is bigger than you think. For example, someone with human level reactions can easily navigate space at many times the speed of light. The average distances between objects is large. For example, it takes light 8 minutes to reach Earth from the Sun. So a human has 1 minute to react (to avoid hitting the Sun) when traveling at 8 times the speed of light. Humans can react as fast as 0.2 of a second.
The distance between planets is larger. The distance between stars is even larger. The average distance between asteroids is 600,000 miles. It would take light more than 3 seconds to travel between asteroids.
But here's the kicker. Space is so large that if so you traveled at many times the speed of light in a random direction you would have less than a 0.0001% chance of hitting any large objects after traveling for a year.
Originally posted by h1a8
You still have to prove propensity. A feat that happened in battle is proof. These are not member controlled characters. They fight in character. Now if you can prove Phoenix will attempt to erase or disintegrate Sentry then you have to prove
1. She's able to disintegrate someone as durable as Sentry and keep him from reforming.
2. She would choose to do so (propensity)
3. She's able to erase Sentry from existence with a gesture.
4. She would choose to do so (propensity).If she never done any in battle then you would have a hard time proving. It's possible though.
What does PIS have to do with anything?
The onus is still on you to prove propensity. No battle feats = hard (but not impossible) case. These aren't member controlled characters
According to the forum rules, propensity, ability at a certain capacity and said ability being a viable tactic for them (i.e not taking them ages to implement leaving them vulnerable, or exhausting all of their energies taking them out of the fight themselves) are all that need to be demonstrated, not the additional nonsense you're fabricating as you go along.
A character does not need to have used an ability within a battle scenario in order for that to be referenced in a hypothetical match up. They just need to have demonstrated the power on panel at the necessary intensity and the propensity.
Whilst these are not member controlled characters, we are according to forum rules supplementing their battle strategies and able to refer to confirmed abilities they have but might not generally use or have used in battle at all because of PIS.
I have demonstrated in my previous post that Jean Grey has the propensity to be ruthless and bully, maim, disintegrate her foes if the stakes are high enough:
Originally posted by GalacticStormJean Grey is known for being a hothead, who can be ruthless in confrontations and has no issue making hard decisions if lives depend on it. With that in mind, incinerating Sentry, or disabling him in some manner to render him a non-threat is well within her character:
Savagely attacking Emma Frost in a psi battle:
Brutalizing Sabretooth for threatening lives:
Vindictively roughing up Emma Frost for her psychic affair with Cyclops and threatening her with her own twist on a penance stare:
Disintegrating inhabitants of an island that had been morphed into plant hybrids and threatened lives:
Characters start off each battle with basic knowledge of each other. It is well known in the superhero community that Sentry is highly dangerous and mentally unstable so Jean would not be fighting with kid gloves. She would be going all out to disable him and if necessary kill him. I have shown that is in character.
Therefore removing PIS of the comics out of the equation, it would be in character for her to use sufficiently high level attacks in order to take him out. According to forum rules I can supplement her battle strategy by referring to powers she has demonstrated sufficient ability in and it would be in character to resort to even if she hasnt used them in battle on panel, as PIS is a thing. Your words to the contrary are a misunderstanding on your part. Read the rules.
If Jean has demonstrated the ability on panel to have total telekinetic control over every atom in the 616 universe and her handbook entry is updated to reflect that she has total telekinetic control of matter on a universal scale, then she officially has that ability as the Phoenix and it is ludicrous to say that unless she has used that power in a battle scenario then theres no proof. The woman materialized every facet of 616 in her palm atom by atom, all the cosmics, the gods, the stars, the planets, all your fave heroes were atomically disassembled and then reassembled in her palm. That is exponentially greater power than necessary to atomize Sentry as demonstrated by Morgan Le Fay and the nerfed Molecule Man who did it with considerably less power at their disposal. That is indisputable.
Whether its heralds
Celestials (And this was Jean expelling the last remnant bit of Phoenix left in her after her 1st resurrection so she wasnt even a full host here)
planets
Solar systems
A Phoenix host has far more raw power than is required to disintegrate Sentry, who even when voided out got dismembered by Thor, didnt automatically regenerate and then his remains were turned into instant ash just by close proximity to the sun:
a simple star that a Phoenix host bathes in and snacks on:
So not only is a Phoenix host capable of exponentially greater energy output than that required to end Sentry, but they have demonstrated greater feats of durability as well.
Please stop referring to Sentrys regeneration as a given, as it is not. He has regenerated at times and most recently he has not despite wanting to in order to help his friends against Knull. It is a sporadic ability that occurs under unknown circumstances, so until it is defined and made a guaranteed outcome following the destruction of his body, you conclusively cannot reference it.
Originally posted by h1a8
[B] . [B] You are when you stated the sun disintegrating Sentry (which wasn't instant). That's a low showing. Sentry has durability feats above that.
[B] Sentry is at least as durable as Hercules, Thor, etc. So atomizing him is one hell of a feat. You have to show that Phoenix can atomize someone as durable. We don't use no limit scenarios. You must provide feats. [B]
The onus is on YOU to prove that his remains getting turned to ash instantly by the suns output is a low showing.
The sun has often been a benchmark in demonstrating durability in Marvel comics with beings like Mangog and Knull being unable to withstand it:
Jane Foster threw Mangog into the sun and he survived the 1st attempt much to the amazement of the goddess Frigga (thereby demonstrating how high a benchmark the sun is)
2nd attempt
(Mangog demonstrating considerably greater durability extremes than Sentry by requiring 2 sun dips to get taken out.)
The sun being used to kill Knull, the Celestial and Sentry killing god:
Knull at least displayed higher durability than Sentry having to be held in the sun for a period to be disintegrated as opposed to Sentrys discorporation as he reached the corona ✅
Even LT regards the sun as a high level punishment, calling it his ultimate punishment and a weapon he deemed sufficient to deal with Korvac:
That again shows you how powerful the Sun is and the regard for its capacity for destruction.
So why would Sentry getting instantly chargrilled by the suns corona be a low showing? Hes no Mangog or Knull and the suns sufficient to end them. The Suns powerful enough for it to be LTs weapon of choice. Yet its a low showing for Sentry? BS. You know by acknowledging the sun as being beyond the capacity of Sentrys durability then this is game, set and match. 😆
Him withstanding fisticuffs from other class 100s is not sufficient 😆
All this proof youre demanding from me and your evidence has been barebones and countered by me at every turn.
Share some scans that demonstrate Sentrys durability is so uber that him getting chargrilled by the sun is a low showing?
I'll wait.....
Originally posted by h1a8
Wrong. Space is bigger than you think. For example, someone with human level reactions can easily navigate space at many times the speed of light. The average distances between objects is large. For example, it takes light 8 minutes to reach Earth from the Sun. So a human has 1 minute to react (to avoid hitting the Sun) when traveling at 8 times the speed of light. Humans can react as fast as 0.2 of a second.The distance between planets is larger. The distance between stars is even larger. The average distance between asteroids is 600,000 miles. It would take light more than 3 seconds to travel between asteroids.
But here's the kicker. Space is so large that if so you traveled at many times the speed of light in a random direction you would have less than a 0.0001% chance of hitting any large objects after traveling for a year.
Can we have some integrity please? Youre entirely ignoring the evidence you cant counter and just addressing the points you give a rebuttal to. Thats not how a debate works. If you cant counter, that should tell you something. Be a man and address all points whether it works in your favour or not 🙂
In addition to the flight speed feats (of which you have yet to demonstrate Sentry can compete on) I showed scans of Phoenix out manoeuvring heralds in battle, thus demonstrating competitive reaction time.
What scans have you provided demonstrating Sentry's incomparable reaction time? Practice what you preach! Where are the scans?!! 😱
So to sum up:
Whilst forum battles dont allow us to supplant the characters, we are operating a PIS free zone and are allowed to supplement their hypothetical battle strategies by referring to abilities theyve demonstrated they have (whether demonstration took place in battle or not) as long as using such an ability is arguably within character.
you have presented zero durability feats in scan form to demonstrate why getting instantly cremated was a low showing 😬
Sentrys regeneration is not automatic, he has no control over it, he has zero knowledge regarding its inner workings, it doesnt happen every time his body is destroyed (hence him currently being deceased) so its an unknown quantity that manifests within unknown conditions. According to forum rules it cannot be referenced as a standard ability within forum battles. Its off the table. Cry about it. 😬
Thats all folks. 😱
^ Even I can admit, being burned in the Sun is not a low showing given all of the high-end comic characters that have been defeated by same. It's a comics trope at this point.
Let's just keep in mind that Knull has defeated Celestials. So the most current version of Sentry being defeated by Knull is not a low showing.
Even moreso recebntl, given the cosmic significance that Al Ewing is bestowing upon the King in Black in his ongoing Venom series.
Originally posted by ODG
^ Even I can admit, being burned in the Sun is not a low showing given all of the high-end comic characters that have been defeated by same. It's a comics trope at this point.Let's just keep in mind that Knull has defeated Celestials. So the most current version of Sentry being defeated by Knull is not a low showing.
Even moreso recebntl, given the cosmic significance that Al Ewing is bestowing upon the King in Black in his ongoing Venom series.
👆
Im really enjoying where Ewings taken the Marvel cosmology. I thought making the King in Blacks counterparts to The Beyonders was inspired.
My worry is August's G.O.D.S title from Jonathan Hickman. This event is supposedly a revision and revitalization of the Marvel cosmology as well. I love Hickmans work, but if its going to upend everything Ewing did so well in Ultimates, Defenders and Venom, im not really here for it 😕
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The onus is on YOU to prove that his remains getting turned to ash instantly by the suns output is a low showing.The sun has often been a benchmark in demonstrating durability in Marvel comics with beings like Mangog and Knull being unable to withstand it:
Jane Foster threw Mangog into the sun and he survived the 1st attempt much to the amazement of the goddess Frigga (thereby demonstrating how high a benchmark the sun is)
2nd attempt
(Mangog demonstrating considerably greater durability extremes than Sentry by requiring 2 sun dips to get taken out.)
The sun being used to kill Knull, the Celestial and Sentry killing god:
Knull at least displayed higher durability than Sentry having to be held in the sun for a period to be disintegrated as opposed to Sentrys discorporation as he reached the corona ✅
Even LT regards the sun as a high level punishment, calling it his ultimate punishment and a weapon he deemed sufficient to deal with Korvac:
That again shows you how powerful the Sun is and the regard for its capacity for destruction.
So why would Sentry getting instantly chargrilled by the suns corona be a low showing? Hes no Mangog or Knull and the suns sufficient to end them. The Suns powerful enough for it to be LTs weapon of choice. Yet its a low showing for Sentry? BS. You know by acknowledging the sun as being beyond the capacity of Sentrys durability then this is game, set and match. 😆
Him withstanding fisticuffs from other class 100s is not sufficient 😆
All this proof youre demanding from me and your evidence has been barebones and countered by me at every turn.
Share some scans that demonstrate Sentrys durability is so uber that him getting chargrilled by the sun is a low showing?
I'll wait.....
Can we have some integrity please? Youre entirely ignoring the evidence you cant counter and just addressing the points you give a rebuttal to. Thats not how a debate works. If you cant counter, that should tell you something. Be a man and address all points whether it works in your favour or not 🙂
In addition to the flight speed feats (of which you have yet to demonstrate Sentry can compete on) I showed scans of Phoenix out manoeuvring heralds in battle, thus demonstrating competitive reaction time.
What scans have you provided demonstrating Sentry's incomparable reaction time? Practice what you preach! Where are the scans?!! 😱
So to sum up:
Whilst forum battles dont allow us to supplant the characters, we are operating a PIS free zone and are allowed to supplement their hypothetical battle strategies by referring to abilities theyve demonstrated they have (whether demonstration took place in battle or not) as long as using such an ability is arguably within character.
you have presented zero durability feats in scan form to demonstrate why getting instantly cremated was a low showing 😬
Sentrys regeneration is not automatic, he has no control over it, he has zero knowledge regarding its inner workings, it doesnt happen every time his body is destroyed (hence him currently being deceased) so its an unknown quantity that manifests within unknown conditions. According to forum rules it cannot be referenced as a standard ability within forum battles. Its off the table. Cry about it. 😬
Thats all folks. 😱
1. Sentry has tanked beyond trillions of tons per square inch of pressure multiple times. The pressure in the Sun is far less than that. Sentry has stood in gamma lava (which is hotter than the average temperature of the Sun) without any damage. Tanks Thor's lightning for several seconds. Normal lightning is hotter than the Sun. So the sun is a low showing.
2. But you never proved propensity for Phoenix. You keep stating that a character doesn't need battle feats to prove propensity. I stated it was possible to prove without battle feats. But you never proved such.
A. Prove she will attempt to atomize him.
B. Prove that she can atomize him.
C. Prove that she won't reform.
D. Prove that she will attempt to erase him.
E. Prove that she can erase him.
F. Prove that he won't come back from being erased.
That's 6 things that you have to prove. Not 1 not 2 not 3 but 6. Failure to prove all 6 is lose of the debate.
3. Jean fought plenty of beings that were extremely dangerous but never attempted or though about such attacks. The ability to think of tactics (creativity) and the ability to choose are two different things. She has to do both. Keep hacking. I'll argue that she will try to blast him with full power. While Sentry will act first and Disintegrate her.
4. Phoenix has never shown total telekinetic control over ever atom in the 616 universe. I saw that scan and disagree with your interpretation. All her battles prove otherwise. Handbooks are not Canon. Handbooks reference comics. Comics don't reference Handbooks. Even if she did. Sentry would still act first and Disintegrate her. Even if Sentry allowed her to act first, he would still reform.
5. You continue to use the lowball highball troll game. Why not use high feats for both and debate from there? Phoenix has some laughable low showings. You don't see me mentioning them do you?
6. Flight speed is not battle speed (perceptions, reactions, etc). Sentry has casually reacted and traveled more than 10ft to catch a bullet before it has travel an inch to kill someone. That's far faster than any reaction feat by Phoenix.
7. This is Sentry at his best (MM version). His regeneration works all the time and every time. Nice try. Even Death Seed Sentry regeneration worked all the time. You have to prove that Phoenix has the ability to prevent his regeneration from working.
8. Lol Mangog etc were PIS showings. Using them as prove the Sun is not a low showing is laughable. The entire members of kmc made fun of that. You have many heralds that survived being in the sun throughout marvel history. The math ev3n proves it is PIS (the temperature and pressure is below what characters have experienced)
This is it?
Its getting easier with every post. Lets begin 😄
Originally posted by h1a8
1. Sentry has tanked beyond trillions of tons per square inch of pressure multiple times. The pressure in the Sun is far less than that. Sentry has stood in gamma lava (which is hotter than the average temperature of the Sun) without any damage. Tanks Thor's lightning for several seconds. Normal lightning is hotter than the Sun. So the sun is a low showing.
Because pressure is the only dangerous characteristic that stems from getting your ass tossed in the sun? 🙄
Show some scans of this gamma lava. If thats beyond your ability to do then tell me the series and issue it happened in and i'll get it for you and i'll post it for discussion. Ive got no problem doing so as i have integrity and im all about bringing the truth to light. Either drop the scan or tell me where it can be found 🙂
The top temperature of lightning is only hotter than the suns corona at 50,000 degrees fahrenheit. The inner layers of the sun can reach 28, 000 000 degrees fahrenheit. They are not the same lol.
To sum up this lil segment, we dont know what elements of the Suns makeup the Sentry was so vulnerable to. Theres pressure, temperature and radioactivity to consider. For all we know its the unique mix of all of them that is not found in either gamma lava or lightning that results in the sun being such a powerful destructive tool and a Sentry killer 😱
Originally posted by h1a8
2. But you never proved propensity for Phoenix. You keep stating that a character doesn't need battle feats to prove propensity. I stated it was possible to prove without battle feats. But you never proved such.A. Prove she will attempt to atomize him.
B. Prove that she can atomize him.
C. Prove that she won't reform.
D. Prove that she will attempt to erase him.
E. Prove that she can erase him.
F. Prove that he won't come back from being erased.That's 6 things that you have to prove. Not 1 not 2 not 3 but 6. Failure to prove all 6 is lose of the debate.
For propensity, all i had to prove is that it is within Jeans character to be ruthless and make those hard decisions which ive done. Thats the extent of my responsibility regarding propensity.
Beyond that as per the forum rules, the character is fighting at optimum levels using all abilities at their disposal. Said abilities do not have to have been used in a battle scenario, they just have to have been demonstrated as part of the characters powerset.
I can then supplement their battle strategy by highlighting such abilities.
These are the forum rules that you worryingly seem to have been entirely oblivious to all this time. Glad to be of assistance 👆
Originally posted by h1a8
3. Jean fought plenty of beings that were extremely dangerous but never attempted or though about such attacks. The ability to think of tactics (creativity) and the ability to choose are two different things. She has to do both. Keep hacking. I'll argue that she will try to blast him with full power. While Sentry will act first and Disintegrate her.
And yet such abilities demonstrably being within her powerset and not being used when they could end a battle in split seconds every time would be an example of PIS.
Versus battles are a PIS free zone and examples of PIS are not permitted to be used as evidence in the forum.
Without evidence that Sentry can exceed the speed feats or the reaction time feats ive provided for Jean, your arguments are featherweight and baseless.
I'll be needing those scans now.....
Originally posted by h1a8
4. Phoenix has never shown total telekinetic control over ever atom in the 616 universe. I saw that scan and disagree with your interpretation. All her battles prove otherwise. Handbooks are not Canon. Handbooks reference comics. Comics don't reference Handbooks. Even if she did. Sentry would still act first and Disintegrate her. Even if Sentry allowed her to act first, he would still reform.
Handbooks reflect the canon presented in comics. A big focus of New X-men was Jeans expanding psychic potential (specifically her telekinesis) in line with the Phoenix manifesting within her again:
She smashed through the psychic defences of the U-men and threatened them with molecular deconstruction:
Absorbed Xaviers mind into her own, before splitting his consciousness into a million different mutant minds across the planet and sustaining this transition so Cassandra who was possessing Xaviers body could unknowingly reconnect his fragmented consciousness when she used Cerebra allowing Xavier to reoccupy his body:
Xavier later decided to test this expanded psychic potential with a focus on her telekinesis and found it had reached an unprecedented level:
Jean absorbs Hanks medical knowledge before telekinetically reassembling Emma's molecular structure:
Jean talks about how with the developing Phoenix manifestation her telekinesis has advanced to the point where shes controlling the component parts of matter and her senses have expanded beyond all boundaries:
Logan euthanizes Jean as they are about to die in space and this releases the Phoenix consciousness making Jean a fully fledged Phoenix host again. In this form she possesses total telekinetic control of matter at the molecular level:
Jean atomizes a species and suspends the atomic deconstruction of one mutant caught in the crossfire so she can study the atoms deconstructing in slow mo:
Sublime injects himself with some of Jeans genetic material so he can access her Phoenix powers which he calls "telekinetic godhood":
After obtaining Jeans power he refers to how all matter responds to his slightest whim and his telekinesis is so advanced he can rewrite an androids computer programming via telekinesis which is insane:
Its even able to rewrite DNA and switch off Wolverines mutant gene:
The culmination of Jeans telekinetic development results in her becoming the White Phoenix and amputating the future Here Comes Tomorrow reality from 616:
Before then materializing 616 in the White Hot Room where the Phoenix Force mentions that her telekinetic control of all the universes atoms isnt an easy task even for a White level Phoenix.
Jeans Phoenix handbook entry was then updated following this incident to talk of her total telekinetic control of matter at the universal level. Something never mentioned before.
Official handbook of the Marvel Universe - Book of the Dead 2004:
This was released same year as New X-men was in print and therefore refers to her total telekinetic control of matter at the molecular level but not the scale of that power which wasnt revealed until the end of the New X-men story arc.
Following her New X-men feat her handbook bios (OHOTMU A to Z v1#8 2009 and X-men: Phoenix Force Handbook 2010) were updated to reflect the scale she demonstrated by the end of the New X-men series:
In reflection of her feat, she is now officially able to manipulate atomic structures on a universal scale.
The conclusive evidence is there. Your opinion to the contrary is irrelevant.
Do not have the audacity to dismiss conclusive evidence whilst supplementing your empty arguments with nada 🙄
Originally posted by h1a8
5. You continue to use the lowball highball troll game. Why not use high feats for both and debate from there? Phoenix has some laughable low showings. You don't see me mentioning them do you?
Im not lowballing at all. Sentry getting washed by the Sun isnt a low showing. Not when the sun is capable of taking out many cosmics and is considered by LT to be his "ultimate punishment" and powerful enough to deal with Korvac as far as he was concerned.
Theres a difference between you not liking a showing and it being a low showing. With the context ive provided youre misrepresenting the showing.
Originally posted by h1a8
6. Flight speed is not battle speed (perceptions, reactions, etc). Sentry has casually reacted and traveled more than 10ft to catch a bullet before it has travel an inch to kill someone. That's far faster than any reaction feat by Phoenix.
Bullets travel about 1800 mph. Big deal. Daredevil and Spiderman dodge bullets at close range all the damn time. That isnt good enough for you to assert that he would be able to take a Phoenix host out before they can act when they have multiple showings of outmanoeuvring heralds and catching them off guard and as per forum rules they start off 0.5km away from each other.
You just do not have the evidence to quantify his comparative reaction time and assert its any quicker than hers. So this is a redundant line of argument. Provide something more conclusive than catching a damn bullet or drop it. 😆
Originally posted by h1a8
7. This is Sentry at his best (MM version). His regeneration works all the time and every time. Nice try. Even Death Seed Sentry regeneration worked all the time. You have to prove that Phoenix has the ability to prevent his regeneration from working.
Incorrect. Forum rules specifically regarding Sentry state that MM showing cannot be considered an average showing as the abilities displayed were an outlier and therefore unverifiable.
The general battle rulings state that "It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels."
So no. MM Sentry would not be the version in question here.
Furthermore, the forum rules stipulate that it is a single battle. Not battles out of 5, not battles out of 10, unless stipulated by the OP. If Sentry's body is atomized and he cant immediately or within seconds return to the fight, then the match is over. Standard Sentry has NEVER shown the ability to immediately regenerate from the destruction of the majority of his body. Once he gets smoked, its over. Tough break.
Originally posted by h1a8
8. Lol Mangog etc were PIS showings. Using them as prove the Sun is not a low showing is laughable. The entire members of kmc made fun of that. You have many heralds that survived being in the sun throughout marvel history. The math ev3n proves it is PIS (the temperature and pressure is below what characters have experienced)
As i stated before, something isnt a low showing just because you dont like it and your whole argument centres around it lol.
In Siege it was demonstrated the sun turns Sentry into instant ash. In Uncanny Avengers that point was verified when Death Seed Sentry talked about the sun being able to breach the limit of his durability and prevent regeneration. It is therefore not a low showing. It is his verified limit in two separate comic book sources by two different writers in different story arcs. You will deal.
Sentry may withstand lightning, he may withstand blows from class 100s, he may withstand gamma lava, however none of those things bring together the unique mix of characteristics the sun does so its an apples to oranges comparison.
The Sun is too much for Sentry and that is not a low showing for him as the same holds true for other powerful beings. Chin up. You did your best 😉
Originally posted by h1a8
And you lost credibility when you tried to use deception and post a scan from a comic that has nothing to with Sentry getting erased as proof he blew up. I'm not going to ignore that. I'm going to state it every time. You were a bogus troll for that
Translation: Im getting absolutely eaten up here so let me avoid a head on debate and instead fabricate some nonsense and attack his credibility. 🙄
If your arguments flopping, drop the pride and wave that white flag stretcher
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
This is it?Its getting easier with every post. Lets begin 😄
Because pressure is the only dangerous characteristic that stems from getting your ass tossed in the sun? 🙄
Show some scans of this gamma lava. If thats beyond your ability to do then tell me the series and issue it happened in and i'll get it for you and i'll post it for discussion. Ive got no problem doing so as i have integrity and im all about bringing the truth to light. Either drop the scan or tell me where it can be found 🙂
The top temperature of lightning is only hotter than the suns corona at 50,000 degrees fahrenheit. The inner layers of the sun can reach 28, 000 000 degrees fahrenheit. They are not the same lol.
To sum up this lil segment, we dont know what elements of the Suns makeup the Sentry was so vulnerable to. Theres pressure, temperature and radioactivity to consider. For all we know its the unique mix of all of them that is not found in either gamma lava or lightning that results in the sun being such a powerful destructive tool and a Sentry killer 😱
For propensity, all i had to prove is that it is within Jeans character to be ruthless and make those hard decisions which ive done. Thats the extent of my responsibility regarding propensity.
Beyond that as per the forum rules, the character is fighting at optimum levels using all abilities at their disposal. Said abilities do not have to have been used in a battle scenario, they just have to have been demonstrated as part of the characters powerset.
I can then supplement their battle strategy by highlighting such abilities.
These are the forum rules that you worryingly seem to have been entirely oblivious to all this time. Glad to be of assistance 👆
And yet such abilities demonstrably being within her powerset and not being used when they could end a battle in split seconds every time would be an example of PIS.
Versus battles are a PIS free zone and examples of PIS are not permitted to be used as evidence in the forum.
Without evidence that Sentry can exceed the speed feats or the reaction time feats ive provided for Jean, your arguments are featherweight and baseless.
I'll be needing those scans now.....
I talked about pressure. Sentry resisted pressure that was orders of magnitudes above the Sun's pressure. Did you read it? Yes the sun's core is hotter than lightning. I will post the scan of the gamma lava later. The fact that many high heralds have entered the Sun's core like nothing is definitely a low showing for Mangog.
A. You never proved pronsenity. Stating things you would do from your own reasoning is not the same as someone else doing the same. You have to prove by actual showings. If Phoenix did something once then it is in her character. If she never done something and fought plenty of times then it's simply not in her character. Phoenix has fought beings much more dangerous than Sentry.
B. You never proved she has the ability to disintegrate someone of Sentry's durability.
You never proved she can erase him and also keep him erased.
C. You never proved that Phoenix perceptions and reactions are faster than Sentry's. Hell I'm not sure if she has faster than human level reactions.
What reaction feats? You never posted any for her.
Post feats of her atomizing someone of Sentry's level. Not weaker characters.
Guess how long it takes a 9mm bullet to travel 2 inches? 0.0001 of a second.
This means that Sentry can accelerate to speeds beyond light speed in about 0.0001 of a second. That means Sentry can reach speeds beyond Phoenix best in less than 8 seconds. But this feat was in an atmosphere where drag forces reduces speed by many orders of magnitude. So in space Sentry would be many orders of magnitude faster.
You are an idiot. I stated that I'm arguing Sentry at his best as a side argument. Not the thread title. You can continue to argue that version of Sentry against me or we can conclude the debate. My original argument is that Sentry at his best will beat Phoenix. That's what I'm arguing, nothing else.
You are another idiot. I stated something was a low showing because many other showings contradict it. Duh. Mangog dying in the sun is a low showing. The entire set of members on kmc criticized that arc. Where were you?
Again you lost credibility posting a scan that has nothing to do with Sentry being erased as to trick me. What's wrong with you?
This descent was rapid.
Is this really what we've come to?
This is some bottom of the barrel debating. 👇
Originally posted by h1a8
I talked about pressure. Sentry resisted pressure that was orders of magnitudes above the Sun's pressure. Did you read it? Yes the sun's core is hotter than lightning. I will post the scan of the gamma lava later. The fact that many high heralds have entered the Sun's core like nothing is definitely a low showing for Mangog.
I read your comments on pressure and i addressed why they like so many others in your arsenal were weak:
Here
Originally posted by GalacticStormTo sum up this lil segment, we dont know what elements of the Suns makeup the Sentry was so vulnerable to. Theres pressure, temperature and radioactivity to consider. For all we know its the unique mix of all of them that is not found in either gamma lava or lightning that results in the sun being such a powerful destructive tool and a Sentry killer 😱
and here:
Originally posted by GalacticStormAs i stated before, something isnt a low showing just because you dont like it and your whole argument centres around it lol.
In Siege it was demonstrated the sun turns Sentry into instant ash. In Uncanny Avengers that point was verified when Death Seed Sentry talked about the sun being able to breach the limit of his durability and prevent regeneration. It is therefore not a low showing. It is his verified limit in two separate comic book sources by two different writers in different story arcs. You will deal.
Sentry may withstand lightning, he may withstand blows from class 100s, he may withstand gamma lava, however none of those things bring together the unique mix of characteristics the sun does so its an apples to oranges comparison.
The Sun is too much for Sentry and that is not a low showing for him as the same holds true for other powerful beings. Chin up. You did your best 😉
If herald beings have withstood the Sun undamaged, that doesnt make Sentrys confirmed and verified weakness to the sun a low showing. It just means he has a particular weakness to the Sun and the heralds makeup is able to deal with the Sun better.
Regardless as i highlighted, it is a confirmed and verified vulnerability for Sentry. Sound off to Marvel. Until such times as a canon source demonstrates differently, the status quo is what it is. Breathe and cope 😆
Originally posted by h1a8
A. You never proved pronsenity. Stating things you would do from your own reasoning is not the same as someone else doing the same. You have to prove by actual showings. If Phoenix did something once then it is in her character. If she never done something and fought plenty of times then it's simply not in her character. Phoenix has fought beings much more dangerous than Sentry.
No. I. Don't. Thats your misunderstanding. It appears your forum life has been a lie 😆
I have to demonstrate the character has the power, that they have the character/personality to resort to such a tactic and that it is a viable tactic for them (i.e not going to take ages to execute, or its not gonna make them collapse with exhaustion after pulling it off) with those things proven, if a character doesnt use said abilities when all 3 conditions above are met, then it is considered PIS. The forum is a PIS free zone. I am then able to supplement a characters battle strategy in a versus match by highlighting the abilities in question.
You have got things twisted. Read the rules. I am not going to reply to a comment on this line of argument again. Ive done debunked your ass.
Originally posted by h1a8
B. You never proved she has the ability to disintegrate someone of Sentry's durability.
You never proved she can erase him and also keep him erased.
Of course i have. The Phoenix Force is the source of all energy in Marvel. It is the power behind the universes stars. Sentry gets washed by seconds of exposure to just one of them... the sun, and it prevents him from regenerating.
Through various scans Ive shown that Jeans amputated limbs from Celestials, destroyed universes on panel and through molecular manipulation has the sheer power to control all the atoms of the universe in her palm of which all the galaxies, solar systems, planets and your heroes were just facets of.
Same way the significantly less powerful Molecule Man did so by molecular manipulation, Jean Grey with her canon total telekinetic control of matter at a far greater power level and scope than Molecule Man had in that era, is therefore conclusively capable of the same.
Your logic is absurd. The Living Tribunal and Multi-Eternity haven't disintegrated beings beyond Sentry level either, so by your logic their power that's been shown to be demonstrably superior via its implementation in other activities isn't transferrable and they have to be shown doing the exact same thing or they cant destroy Sentry 🙄 LOL.
Its like Rogue lifting a rock. But you arguing that unless Thor lifts that same rock then theres no evidence that he can do it to despite the rock being lifted through no hidden means, just sheer physical strength, an ability Rogue and Thor both share, but Thor just demonstrably has that ability to a far greater extent.
Youre being purposely pedantic and obstructive because you have no argument of note, its all been decimated and this nonsense behaviour is all you have left to cling to. Have you no shame?
Originally posted by h1a8
C. You never proved that Phoenix perceptions and reactions are faster than Sentry's. Hell I'm not sure if she has faster than human level reactions.
What reaction feats? You never posted any for her.
Youve posted zero evidence at all. Youve just given me words 😆
Ive shown scans of Phoenixes outmanoeuvring heralds and youre out here talking about Sentry catching bullets LOL
Originally posted by h1a8
Guess how long it takes a 9mm bullet to travel 2 inches? 0.0001 of a second.
This means that Sentry can accelerate to speeds beyond light speed in about 0.0001 of a second. That means Sentry can reach speeds beyond Phoenix best in less than 8 seconds. But this feat was in an atmosphere where drag forces reduces speed by many orders of magnitude. So in space Sentry would be many orders of magnitude faster.
We're back to talking about outpacing bullets which is a Daredevil/Spiderman level feat? LOL
Rogue outdoes that with multiple times more bullets lol
Your words and half baked calculations are not enough. Where are your scans? Where are your scans?!! I already demonstrated with your erasure from existence nonsense (that i debunked) that your memory isnt a reliable source of evidence lol
Bullets move at 1800mph. I can guarantee thats a snails pace in comparison to a vengeful, furious herald racing towards you, and you dodging and catching their assault:
Originally posted by h1a8
You are an idiot. I stated that I'm arguing Sentry at his best as a side argument. Not the thread title. You can continue to argue that version of Sentry against me or we can conclude the debate. My original argument is that Sentry at his best will beat Phoenix. That's what I'm arguing, nothing else.
You cant mix and match like that though. Either you use optimal Sentry which would exclude MM Sentry who is an outlier with unverifiable feats as per forum rules. Or if you wish to use MM Sentry then you're entirely limited to his feats from that Dark Avengers period which would exclude all of the speed, reaction time and durability feats which belong to the verified representation of Sentry which the forum agrees on and can be debated with at his optimal levels. WEEP! 😆
Originally posted by h1a8
You are another idiot. I stated something was a low showing because many other showings contradict it. Duh. Mangog dying in the sun is a low showing. The entire set of members on kmc criticized that arc. Where were you?
Nope. Its a low showing because accepting it for what it is means the debates over. Ive presented scans and sound reasoning for why its conclusively not a low showing. You've just typed, cried and given hysterics.
Originally posted by h1a8
Again you lost credibility posting a scan that has nothing to do with Sentry being erased as to trick me. What's wrong with you?
I have zero need to trick you when i can just out debate you 😆
Your easily confused ass misinterpreted a post, popped on a tinfoil hat and started yapping conspiracy theories. When i later quoted the post that you had misinterpreted, and broke it down for you as simply as i could, by that point you realised you were getting eaten up in the debate, and clung on to your nonsense realising that if you cant beat em, get scummy and try and discredit 😱
Fail upon fail.
Until next time....
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
This descent was rapid.Is this really what we've come to?
This is some bottom of the barrel debating. 👇
I read your comments on pressure and i addressed why they like so many others in your arsenal were weak:
Here
and here:
If herald beings have withstood the Sun undamaged, that doesnt make Sentrys confirmed and verified weakness to the sun a low showing. It just means he has a particular weakness to the Sun and the heralds makeup is able to deal with the Sun better.
Marvel never explicitly mentioned the sun was Sentry's weakness lol. Anyway, your example with Mangog was bad. Like I said, many heralds have endured the Sun, yet Mangog can't? Mangog was a peer to Odin and chewed the Destroyer up with ease (same Destroyer who wrecked Gladiator, another being that withstand the sun). I'm pretty sure that Mangog can withstand energy blasts as hot as the core of the sun. That was PIS. So using that example of why the Sun is powerful is BS.
You giving your interpretation of what PIS (whether true or not) is not the same as proving your case. There is no such thing as 100% of someone's fight being PIS. If every single fight is PIS then you have to revisit what PIS is. If she had at least 1 fight displaying character to do something (and ability) then we can go with that.Regardless as i highlighted, it is a [b]confirmed
and verified vulnerability for Sentry. Sound off to Marvel. Until such times as a canon source demonstrates differently, the status quo is what it is. Breathe and cope 😆No. I. Don't. Thats your misunderstanding. It appears your forum life has been a lie 😆
I have to demonstrate the character has the power, that they have the character/personality to resort to such a tactic and that it is a viable tactic for them (i.e not going to take ages to execute, or its not gonna make them collapse with exhaustion after pulling it off) with those things proven, if a character doesnt use said abilities when all 3 conditions above are met, then it is considered PIS. The forum is a PIS free zone. I am then able to supplement a characters battle strategy in a versus match by highlighting the abilities in question. [/b]
You have to display her abilities through feats. Feats. I can say Sentry has the power of a million exploding Suns, but his showings contradict that. Especially the one where he is damaged inside the Sun.You have got things twisted. Read the rules. I am not going to reply to a comment on this line of argument again. Ive done debunked your ass.
Of course i have. The Phoenix Force is the source of all energy in Marvel. It is the power behind the universes stars. Sentry gets washed by seconds of exposure to just one of them... the sun, and it prevents him from regenerating.
Amputated limbs of a Celestial isn't a good feat. Heralds have damaged Celestials armor. It is not indestructible by any means. It's not even comparable to adamantium. And it certainly doesn't prove a character can atomize someone on Sentry's level. You never showed Jean destroying the universe. You never showed her being able to control all the atoms of the universe either. Holding a possible image of a galaxy above her hand doesn't prove any of this. Odin has done similar feats.Through various scans Ive shown that Jeans amputated limbs from Celestials, destroyed universes on panel and through molecular manipulation has the sheer power to control all the atoms of the universe in her palm of which all the galaxies, solar systems, planets and your heroes were just facets of.
You flawed inference is not proving things by feats. Galan has warned me in the Tyrant vs Thanos thread. DarkSaint was trolling and stating that we don't know if Tyrant has any mode of ftl travel since he has no showings of him traveling ftl. I stated beautiful logical reasoning why it would be dumb for Tyrant to not have the ability to travel ftl. He wouldn't be able to affect anything outside the Solar System he's in (for example), and many other good points I've made. He simply wouldn't be relevant nor a threat to the universe or Galactus. I was shot down by Galan stating that without feats then I can't say Tryant can has a mode of travel that's ftl. Even if Tyrant was to ride on the back of one of his robots (who he created) that are capable of ftl travel.
That's how it works. They have to have a feat that logically concludes us to believe that they can do such things. They don't necessarily have to have disintegrated a Sentry level being. Wiping out the universe (not a miniature universe) is sufficient, or there are other feats that are sufficient.Same way the significantly less powerful Molecule Man did so by molecular manipulation, Jean Grey with her canon total telekinetic control of matter at a far greater power level and scope than Molecule Man had in that era, is therefore conclusively capable of the same.
Your logic is absurd. The Living Tribunal and Multi-Eternity haven't disintegrated beings beyond Sentry level either, so by your logic their power that's been shown to be demonstrably superior via its implementation in other activities isn't transferrable and they have to be shown doing the exact same thing or they cant destroy Sentry 🙄 LOL.
What does physical strength have to do with anything? Thor can lift the rock not because he lifted the rock but because he lifted heavier things. You can prove ability by showing an ability that exceeds (and encompasses) that ability.Its like Rogue lifting a rock. But you arguing that unless Thor lifts that same rock then theres no evidence that he can do it to despite the rock being lifted through no hidden means, just sheer physical strength, an ability Rogue and Thor both share, but Thor just demonstrably has that ability to a far greater extent.
Youre being purposely pedantic and obstructive because you have no argument of note, its all been decimated and this nonsense behaviour is all you have left to cling to. Have you no shame?
In comics, you can outmaneuver heralds traveling at less than the speed of sound. Spider-man can Captain America has outmaneuvered heralds. Character's arent always using their top speed or perceptions in every scene. Spider-man has dodged lasers and machine gun fire on many occasions yet got struck by speeds far slower than a bullet. It's called fiction inconsistency. You have to have quantifiable feats of Phoenix reactions and perceptions.Youve posted zero evidence at all. Youve just given me words 😆
Ive shown scans of Phoenixes outmanoeuvring heralds and youre out here talking about Sentry catching bullets LOL
You can't compare traveling speed to battle speed (where perceptions, reactions, and limb speed plays a large role). Travel speed in itself doesn't prove acceleration. For example, I can reach 1000x the speed of light has long as I continue to speed up (accelerate). Acting first has nothing to do with who has the faster travel speed. It's all about who has the faster perceptions and reactions.We're back to talking about outpacing bullets which is a Daredevil/Spiderman level feat? LOL
Rogue outdoes that with multiple times more bullets lol
Your words and half baked calculations are not enough. Where are your scans? Where are your scans?!! I already demonstrated with your erasure from existence nonsense (that i debunked) that your memory isnt a reliable source of evidence lol
Bullets move at 1800mph. I can guarantee thats a snails pace in comparison to a vengeful, furious herald racing towards you, and you dodging and catching their assault:
MM Sentry has all the abilities of optimal normal Sentry. Superspeed, strength, durability, etc.You cant mix and match like that though. Either you use optimal Sentry which would exclude MM Sentry who is an outlier with unverifiable feats as per forum rules. Or if you wish to use MM Sentry then you're entirely limited to his feats from that Dark Avengers period which would exclude all of the speed, reaction time and durability feats which belong to the verified representation of Sentry which the forum agrees on and can be debated with at his optimal levels. WEEP! 😆
Yet you posted a scan of MM blowing Sentry up adjacent to the scan where LeFay is erasing Sentry as it was chronological events happening. When I saw the 2nd scan (MM one) I told myself I don't remember Sentry separating into pieces. So I went back to the comic and saw no such thing occurred. Then I looked back at the scan you posted and discovered it was from a different comic where MM blew Sentry up.Nope. Its a low showing because accepting it for what it is means the debates over. Ive presented scans and sound reasoning for why its conclusively not a low showing. You've just typed, cried and given hysterics.
I have zero need to trick you when i can just out debate you 😆
Your easily confused ass misinterpreted a post, popped on a tinfoil hat and started yapping conspiracy theories. When i later quoted the post that you had misinterpreted, and broke it down for you as simply as i could, by that point you realised you were getting eaten up in the debate, and clung on to your nonsense realising that if you cant beat em, get scummy and try and discredit 😱
Fail upon fail.
Until next time....
Originally posted by h1a8
Marvel never explicitly mentioned the sun was Sentry's weakness lol. Anyway, your example with Mangog was bad. Like I said, many heralds have endured the Sun, yet Mangog can't? Mangog was a peer to Odin and chewed the Destroyer up with ease (same Destroyer who wrecked Gladiator, another being that withstand the sun). I'm pretty sure that Mangog can withstand energy blasts as hot as the core of the sun. That was PIS. So using that example of why the Sun is powerful is BS.
You cannot worm your way out of this. Sentry was incinerated by the sun in Siege in 2009. In 2013's Uncanny Avengers Sentry's vulnerability to the sun was reiterated and it went into detail about how it prevented him from regenerating. From the time that vulnerability was featured and built upon in two different titles, by two different writers in two different story arcs, years apart it became an established canonical fact. Youve lost this point. Moving on.....
Originally posted by h1a8
You giving your interpretation of what PIS (whether true or not) is not the same as proving your case. There is no such thing as 100% of someone's fight being PIS. If every single fight is PIS then you have to revisit what PIS is. If she had at least 1 fight displaying character to do something (and ability) then we can go with that.
Otherwise, we have to rely on your flawed logic of why you think it is in her character to do something when she never has, given many many opportunities.
Im not giving my interpretation of what PIS is. Im basically paraphrasing the forum rules which you are clearly misunderstanding.
She doesnt have to be shown using the ability in battle, she just has to have the ability, the propensity and it has to be a viable tactic. If those factors apply and she doesnt use it when such an ability could easily bring her victory it is certified PIS according to the forums rules. Dont like it? Take your debate to another forum.
She hasnt been given many, many opportunities. She has been the Phoenix TWICE in 40 years. 😆
As i clearly highlighted in one of my previous posts, her "telekinetic godhood" was a journey that was built up through the title culminating in her fulfilling her potential at the end of the story arc. Said abilities were then updated within her character bios as established abilities for her as the Phoenix.
So your argument against it being PIS is redundant as the circumstances didnt allow for their to be many, many opportunities as you claimed without insight.
However propensity has long been established, abilities are documented as canon and its a very viable tactic for her.
Done. 🙂
Originally posted by h1a8
You have to display her abilities through feats. Feats. I can say Sentry has the power of a million exploding Suns, but his showings contradict that. Especially the one where he is damaged inside the Sun. Amputated limbs of a Celestial isn't a good feat. Heralds have damaged Celestials armor. It is not indestructible by any means. It's not even comparable to adamantium. And it certainly doesn't prove a character can atomize someone on Sentry's level. You never showed Jean destroying the universe. You never showed her being able to control all the atoms of the universe either. Holding a possible image of a galaxy above her hand doesn't prove any of this. Odin has done similar feats.
Ive displayed feats. Jean destroyed the Here Comes Tomorrow future reality by casually amputating it off 616 with a thought. Something she states she did on panel, something visualised by said reality fading away and something the Handbook went on to confirm is what happened. Ive showed this. If you cannot process and remember all the evidence im presenting then thats a you problem.
I reply to every comment you make and address it. You ignore what you cant counter and quote what you think you can. Maybe if you introduced some integrity into your debating approach and tackled everything and admitted what had left you stumped then you wouldnt be forgetting evidence.
Furthermore in the scans i showed, the Phoenix explicitly told her the universe was wounded because she got distracted from carrying out her Phoenix work and that she needed to heal it in the white hot room:
She then manifests what we're told is the universe in her palm with the Phoenix referring to how control of all the universes atoms isnt easy even for a White Phoenix:
The handbook entry is updated from saying she has total telekinetic control of matter to stating Jean can manipulate atomic structures of a universal scale:
During New X-men
After New X-men
Thats conclusive. ✅
To disprove that you would require other official Marvel sources. Your biased opinion to the contrary is insufficient.
Originally posted by h1a8
You flawed inference is not proving things by feats. Galan has warned me in the Tyrant vs Thanos thread. DarkSaint was trolling and stating that we don't know if Tyrant has any mode of ftl travel since he has no showings of him traveling ftl. I stated beautiful logical reasoning why it would be dumb for Tyrant to not have the ability to travel ftl. He wouldn't be able to affect anything outside the Solar System he's in (for example), and many other good points I've made. He simply wouldn't be relevant nor a threat to the universe or Galactus. I was shot down by Galan stating that without feats then I can't say Tryant can has a mode of travel that's ftl. Even if Tyrant was to ride on the back of one of his robots (who he created) that are capable of ftl travel.
Again youre demonstrating a lack of understanding. Galan was right. You didnt have a demonstration of the ability in question. Your argument was pure supposition.
Thats not the case here with me. Do not dare to liken your shit debating practices to my own 😆
Ive shared a demonstration of the ability in question...total telekinetic control of matter.
Ive shown how Molecule Man with the exact same ability but at a vastly lower power level was able to disintegrate Sentry.
Ive then shown Jean has the propensity and as per forum rules ive then referred to this ability as a viable battle tactic given its been demionstrated to be within her repertoire.
What i havent done is referred to an ability thats never been seen on panel and then asserted oh she must be capable of it because shes the Phoenix and she wouldnt be seen as such a big baddie if she couldnt do it? 🙄
What the hell am i dealing with? 😆
Originally posted by h1a8
That's how it works. They have to have a feat that logically concludes us to believe that they can do such things. They don't necessarily have to have disintegrated a Sentry level being. Wiping out the universe (not a miniature universe) is sufficient, or there are other feats that are sufficient. What does physical strength have to do with anything? Thor can lift the rock not because he lifted the rock but because he lifted heavier things. You can prove ability by showing an ability that exceeds (and encompasses) that ability.
By this point, the fact that you didnt get my Rogue/Thor example shouldnt surprise me 😆
At the end of the day on panel Jean has faded a universe into non existence by amputating it from the multiversal tree and displayed total telekinetic control of the atoms of an entire universe.
The version of Molecule Man in question possessed control over molecules, the same ability as Jean but at a significantly smaller scale and yet was able to wipe out Sentry multiple times on panel through this same ability, the manipulation of molecules.
It is therefore entirely reasonable, logical and permissible as far as the forum is concerned to assert that Jean could disintegrate Sentry. To argue otherwise is nonsensical and pride based obtrusion.
Referring to the Rogue example again, its the equivalent of Rogue lifting a Rogue through pure physical strength, but you arguing that Thor couldnt do so because he hasnt been shown on panel lifting that exact same rock, despite him displaying superior physical strength in other activities.
If you do not understand how that example relates to your nonsense then you are a lost cause 😆
Originally posted by h1a8
In comics, you can outmaneuver heralds traveling at less than the speed of sound. Spider-man can Captain America has outmaneuvered heralds. Character's arent always using their top speed or perceptions in every scene. Spider-man has dodged lasers and machine gun fire on many occasions yet got struck by speeds far slower than a bullet. It's called fiction inconsistency. You have to have quantifiable feats of Phoenix reactions and perceptions. You can't compare traveling speed to battle speed (where perceptions, reactions, and limb speed plays a large role). Travel speed in itself doesn't prove acceleration. For example, I can reach 1000x the speed of light has long as I continue to speed up (accelerate). Acting first has nothing to do with who has the faster travel speed. It's all about who has the faster perceptions and reactions.
Whilst fighting speed can vary, reaction time isnt something thats switched on or off. There are no indications given that Firelords were hampered in any fashion. Multiple times in her battle with Firelord she caught him unawares before he could dodge which speaks for the speed shes able to fight at.
Plus given his reference to how powerful her opening strike was, its reasonable to assert that he wouldve been trying to avoid getting hit by subsequent strikes. He failed....😱
Furthermore to dodge and catch a furious speeding herald, it requires exponentially greater reaction time than catching a 1800mph bullet as per a scan you have yet to provide 🙄
Sentry having reaction times faster than a Phoenix host is not something you can prove. This line of argument is a dead-end, so drop the point and focus on the head on collision and the resultant outcome 🙂
Originally posted by h1a8
MM Sentry has all the abilities of optimal normal Sentry. Superspeed, strength, durability, etc.
You do not get to make up your own rules within this forum. MM Sentry is an outlier and not allowed to be regarded as an accurate reflection of Sentrys standard repertoire of abilities. He therefore is exempt from being the "optimal character" used in versus matches as his abilities would fall on the unusually powered up and unverifiable category.
So if you wish to use this version of the character then it is in isolation with the abilities only demonstrated within the Dark Avengers title. You cant mix, match, have your cake and eat it to. Integrity matters. Work on that.
Originally posted by h1a8
Yet you posted a scan of MM blowing Sentry up adjacent to the scan where LeFay is erasing Sentry as it was chronological events happening. When I saw the 2nd scan (MM one) I told myself I don't remember Sentry separating into pieces. So I went back to the comic and saw no such thing occurred. Then I looked back at the scan you posted and discovered it was from a different comic where MM blew Sentry up.
You began talking about how Sentry regenerated from being erased from existence (something i would later highlight to be a huge misinterpretation/poor recollection on your part)
I asked multiple times which was the instance you were regarding as him being erased from existence? You ignored this question multiple times.
I then made a post showing an example of what being erased from existence was and then said these do not show Sentry being erased from existence and shared links to images of both the Morgan Le Fay attack and the MM attacks as by that point you had still not clarified which one you thought demonstrated an existence erasure.
You in turn were off with the fairies and somehow chose to interpret that as me saying they were from the same comic and i was misrepresenting evidence.
When i broke it down for you and explained just like i've done now you chose to hold on to your nonsense.
Im doing very well here, i demonstrably do not need to lean on trickery to out debate you 😬
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
By this point, the fact that you didnt get my Rogue/Thor example shouldnt surprise me 😆At the end of the day on panel Jean has faded a universe into non existence by amputating it from the multiversal tree and displayed total telekinetic control of the atoms of an entire universe.
The version of Molecule Man in question possessed control over molecules, the same ability as Jean but at a significantly smaller scale and yet was able to wipe out Sentry multiple times on panel through this same ability, the manipulation of molecules.
It is therefore entirely reasonable, logical and permissible as far as the forum is concernd to assert that Jean could disintegrate Sentry. To argue otherwise is nonsensical and pride based obtrusion.
Referring to the Rogue example again, its the equivalent of Rogue lifting a Rogue through pure physical strength, but you arguing that Thor couldnt do so because he hasnt been shown on panel lifting that exact same rock, despite him displaying superior physical strength in other activities.
If you do not understand how that example relates to your nonsense then you are a lost cause 😆
Whilst fighting speed can vary, reaction time isnt something thats switched on or off. There are no indications given that Firelords were hampered in any fashion. Multiple times in her battle with Firelord she caught him unawares before he could dodge which speaks for the speed shes able to fight at.
Plus given his reference to how powerful her opening strike was, its reasonable to assert that he wouldve been trying to avoid getting hit by subsequent strikes. He failed....😱
Furthermore to dodge and catch a furious speeding herald, it requires exponentially greater reaction time than catching a 1800mph bullet as per a scan you have yet to provide 🙄
Sentry having reaction times faster than a Phoenix host is not something you can prove. This line of argument is a dead-end, so drop the point and focus on the head on collision and the resultant outcome 🙂
You do not get to make up your own rules within this forum. MM Sentry is an outlier and not allowed to be regarded as an accurate reflection of Sentrys standard repertoire of abilities. He therefore is exempt from being the "optimal character" used in versus matches as his abilities would fall on the unusually powered up and unverifiable category.
So if you wish to use this version of the character then it is in isolation with the abilities only demonstrated within the Dark Avengers title. You cant mix, match, have your cake and eat it to. Integrity matters. Work on that.
You began talking about how Sentry regenerated from being erased from existence (something i would later highlight to be a huge misinterpretation/poor recollection on your part)
I asked multiple times which was the instance you were regarding as him being erased from existence? You ignored this question multiple times.
I then made a post showing an example of what being erased from existence was and then said these do not show Sentry being erased from existence and shared links to images of both the Morgan Le Fay attack and the MM attacks as by that point you had still not clarified which one you thought demonstrated an existence erasure.
You in turn were off with the fairies and somehow chose to interpret that as me saying they were from the same comic and i was misrepresenting evidence.
When i broke it down for you and explained just like i've done now you chose to hold on to your nonsense.
Im doing very well here, i demonstrably do not need to lean on trickery to out debate you 😬
Prove that Jean displayed control over every atom of a particular universe.
Prove that she is able to do the same to the 616 universe.
All of her fights and showings says otherwise.
I gave a quantifiable feat for Sentry proving his reaction, perception, and acceleration speed. You have yet to post anything that proves she has comparable or above speed. Feats against characters isn't proof for the listed reasons I gave.
Even if Phoenix can disintegrate Sentry (she can't) then he would reform.
Even if she can erase him (she can't) then he would come back.
Sentry disintegrates Phoenix before she acts. End of argument.