Dooku vs. Sidious

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
See?

What the hell are you trying to say? I didn't have an answer ready? I wasn't online. Yes it is possible to block a force push I mean come on you didn't see the movie? On Mustafar when Obi-Wan and Anakin fight they both are in a lock neither besting the other in force power. If Obi-Wan blocked Anakins force push or choke or grasp or anything really, Sidious would be able to do that. The "unblockable" force push from Yoda only shows us Sid's weak spots such as defensive force powers.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
NOTHING near Yoda in lightsaber skill? Pardon me, during the initial part of the fight, where did Yoda strike down Sidious? Where did Yoda disarm Sidious and remove his lightsaber. WHERE? He didn't. 😄

If someone is consequently pushed into defence without being able to make a SINGLE attack movement while (in fact) having an advantage in terms of position then he is NOTHING compared to his opponent. In the entire fight you don't see Sidious attacking once. And you say he is equal to Yoda ? Or even equal to Dooku ? Equal to Mace ?

Those people would kick Sidious ass in a lightsaber duel.

Now. Let's look again. Yoda came into the duel, and rendered the Guard unconscious. And then he and Sidious engaged in some egotistical banter. Sidious raised his arms - and BLASTED Yoda across the room. Lol, you say he was caught off guard?

Yes. He was caught off guard. They were talking and nothing pointed out that Sidious would use the force then he raised his arm and shot his lightning. Now compare that to the situation with Dooku in AotC.

Dooku raised his hand and was still talking and then he shot his lightning. Yoda had much more time to prepare himself than he had against Sidious because Sidious:

a) used his lightning "without" leaving Yoda the time to prepare
b) used it from a close range

And later you see Yoda jumping up to Sidious being immediately attacked with force lightning and can deflect it. So if Sidious didn't caught him off guard why can Yoda deflect his lightning (more powerful than the one that send him flying through the room as Sidious is using BOTH hands and not only one this time) later ?

Before the lightning hit him, Yoda dropped his cane - and moved to block the lightning. It overwhelmed his defenses and sent him flying. Count Dooku has never harmed Yoda, to our knowledge, whereas Sidious has. Again. Nice try. 😄

Yoda NEVER dropped his cane and tried to defend Sidious first lightning attack. If you don't believe me take a look at the following picture and then tell me why Yodas goddamn cane is lying beneath him and in the opposite direction from where Yoda was thrown. Because he dropped it before the lightning hit him ? Haha. Nice try.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
1. It was a bit more than three meters. It was the entire length of the office. But then you need to understand. Anakin was charging at Dooku, and did not apparently have the ability to block the Force lightning. It is easier, Nai, to throw someone when they are running at you (using momentum) than it is to throw someone standing completely still.

Now. Really. It is easier to throw someone in the SAME direction that he is moving in. Dooku throw him in a different direction and this is harder to do when somebody moves than it is when he stands still.

2. Yoda dropped his cane and went to block to the lightning as it neared him. Yoda succeeded in getting his hands up. The lightning briefly stopped - but it overloading his defenses - and sent him flying. Meaning the lightning had to overcome a barrier (if only for a slight second) whereas Dooku's did not.

Watch the picture in my last post and tell that stuff again.

3. Hmmm. I'm not following you here. It ravaged Sidious's frame when the lightning was reflected back via Mace's lightsaber.

Haha...yes...reflected back via Mace's lightsaber. Not seen in the films, not even mentioned in the novel - conclusion: only happening in your mind.

And please: Don't call me biased or fanboy because your own lack of knowledge about Dooku.

I have a wonderful screen-shot here, provided from this:

http://www.derekwalden.com/images/trailer/cap044.jpg

The screenshot on that link shows the lightning forking its way to Yoda, and him raising his hands to prevent the blast. Needless to say, Yoda's attempt failed, and Sidious overpowered him.

1. Are you, Nai, trying to tell me that Sidious should've given Yoda time to prepare for his attack? Lol, if you ask me, Yoda should've been very prepared the moment he walked in the office.

2. Count Dooku blasted Anakin side ways. Anakin was charging to him, in motion. I can push you, if you're running, and it will have more effect than if you're stationary. Anakin was blasted sideways, not backwards.

3. Close range? Sidious and Yoda were over ten feet apart. Hardly close range. And you're telling me the whole: "Your arrogance blinds you. You will now witness the full power of the Dark Side" junk didn't give Yoda a hint? Excuses, excuses Nai.

4. Sidious WAS using both hands when he attacked Yoda and blasted through his defenses. Yoda, perhaps, simply didn't erect a barrier powerful enough to withstand Sidious's lightning in the first place.

Now. As for your lightsaber remarks. Yoda was on the offensive. Sidious was indeed on the defensive. He didn't WANT to fight. His goals were simply to live and fight another day (or not, lol). Yoda never once broke through Sidious's defenses. Sidious was simply blocking. He wasn't looking to kill. Merely to survive.

So yes. I would say Sidious IS something compared to Yoda and Dooku. Notice I didn't say superior. But you tend to put down Sidious's skills way too much.

If the Jedi Masters were caught off guard, why were their lightsabers drawn and ignited, Nai?

You've also not managed to provide a decent explanation on some of my other points. Such as:

- Why didn't George say: "You need DOOKU, Mace, or Yoda to compete with The Emperor"?

- Where is your proof Dooku has as much raw power as Sidious?

- Where is your proof he is LEAGUES above Sidious in lightsaber combat?

- Why is possibly catching someone off guard BAD?

- Why didn't he kill Sidious if (as you said) Count Dooku could've done everything Sidious did by himself?

- If Sidious is "NOTHING" compared to Yoda, why didn't Yoda strike him down, disarm him, or both?

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
2. Count Dooku blasted Anakin side ways. Anakin was charging to him, in motion. I can push you, if you're running, and it will have more effect than if you're stationary. Anakin was blasted sideways, not backwards.

3. Close range? Sidious and Yoda were over ten feet apart. Hardly close range. And you're telling me the whole: "Your arrogance blinds you. You will now witness the full power of the Dark Side" junk didn't give Yoda a hint? Excuses, excuses Nai.

Now. As for your lightsaber remarks. Yoda was on the offensive. Sidious was indeed on the defensive. He didn't WANT to fight. His goals were simply to live and fight another day (or not, lol). Yoda never once broke through Sidious's defenses. Sidious was simply blocking. He wasn't looking to kill. Merely to survive.

So yes. I would say Sidious IS something compared to Yoda and Dooku. Notice I didn't say superior. But you tend to put down Sidious's skills way too much.

If the Jedi Masters were caught off guard, why were their lightsabers drawn and ignited, Nai?

You've also not managed to provide a decent explanation on some of my other points. Such as:

- Why didn't George say: "You need DOOKU, Mace, or Yoda to compete with The Emperor"?

- Where is your proof Dooku has as much raw power as Sidious?

- Where is your proof he is LEAGUES above Sidious in lightsaber combat?

- Why is possibly catching someone off guard BAD?

- Why didn't he kill Sidious if (as you said) Count Dooku could've done everything Sidious did by himself?

- If Sidious is "NOTHING" compared to Yoda, why didn't Yoda strike him down, disarm him, or both?

2. I'm pretty sure It wasn't directly moving sideays. It was also away from Dooku.

3. How close they were apparently doesn't matter seeing as Yoda has blocked in from about three feet apart.

Why do you think that Sidious wasn't trying to kill Yoda? If he could kill Yoda, he would have been unmatched. Obi-wan would be unable to defeat him at that point, probably forever, and Anakin was weaker than him too. Personaly I think that Yoda was planning to stop Sidious for long enough to allow Obi-wan to kill Anakin. He couldn't kill Sidious yet because that would have caused a civil war again with no Jedi to fight in it. Civilization might have been destroyed.

Let me toss in a personal belief about the three Jedi in the Office. Sidious was clouding there minds. They weren't able to block because he was invisib;e to them in the force. They had less of a chance against him than you or me since we are used to fighitng without the force. Mace had less of a problem "seeing" through the shield because Vapaad as you know uses Dark Side Energy, clouding his "vision" less. Yoda was able to "see" thorugh the shield, showing he is more powerful than Mace who did beat Sidious.

"- Why didn't George say: "You need DOOKU, Mace, or Yoda to compete with The Emperor"?"

Why should he have? Also, from where he is, this fight would never happen.

"- Where is your proof Dooku has as much raw power as Sidious?"

Where does it say he doesn't? He has displayed force powers on the same level as Sidious. That shows he about equal.

- Why didn't he kill Sidious if (as you said) Count Dooku could've done everything Sidious did by himself?

I don't know who said this. They are wrong. Dooku could not have manipulated the Senate like that.

"- Where is your proof he is LEAGUES above Sidious in lightsaber combat?"

He has a better form for fighting Sidious than Sidious has for fighting him. Dooku beat Mace, Mace wasted Sidious.

Why didn't he kill Sidious if (as you said) Count Dooku could've done everything Sidious did by himself?

I don't know who said this. They are wrong. Dooku could not have manipulated the Senate like that.

But you must think that with Sidious the Clone Army would have never been created since it was Sidious's idea and Dooku just went with it but Dooku did create the CIS.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
http://www.derekwalden.com/images/trailer/cap044.jpg

The screenshot on that link shows the lightning forking its way to Yoda, and him raising his hands to prevent the blast. Needless to say, Yoda's attempt failed, and Sidious overpowered him.

He is raising one hand to cover his eyes. The other hand still holds the cane. Please compare that to his movements in AotC when he wants to deflect Dookus lightning and then tell me that is the same form of "defence".
And if Sidious simply overpowered him then please tell me how Yoda was able to deflect lightning from Sidious later ? You are out of logic.

1. Are you, Nai, trying to tell me that Sidious should've given Yoda time to prepare for his attack? Lol, if you ask me, Yoda should've been very prepared the moment he walked in the office.

Could you please stop being stupid like that ? Of course he should not have given Yoda the time to prepare. I was simply explaining the fact that Yoda HAD time to prepare when he faced Dooku and didn't have that time when fighting Sidious. Now when he is IN COMBAT and knowing Sidious will attack him with force lightning he CAN deflect it. So Sidious did "overpower" Yoda once because of suprise and not of sheer power.

2. Count Dooku blasted Anakin side ways. Anakin was charging to him, in motion. I can push you, if you're running, and it will have more effect than if you're stationary. Anakin was blasted sideways, not backwards.

Dooku controlled the direction in which Anakin was blasted. Yet...what is harder: Push you and have you change your direction while your running or push you in a certain direction while you stand somewhere ? I guess the last thing is MUCH easier to do.

3. Close range? Sidious and Yoda were over ten feet apart. Hardly close range. And you're telling me the whole: "Your arrogance blinds you. You will now witness the full power of the Dark Side" junk didn't give Yoda a hint? Excuses, excuses Nai.

They were closer to each other than Yoda and Dooku were in AotC. And how should Yoda know what Sidious is going to do. He would know what Dooku would do since Dooku aimed at him with his hand where Sidious stood still than raised his hand fastly and fired. And still Yoda can deflect the lightning later...so what ?

4. Sidious WAS using both hands when he attacked Yoda and blasted through his defenses. Yoda, perhaps, simply didn't erect a barrier powerful enough to withstand Sidious's lightning in the first place.

Oh great. So your proof for Sidious being more powerful than Dooku is that Sidious blasted through Yodas defences when Yoda didn't have them fully up ? Great stuff.

Now. As for your lightsaber remarks. Yoda was on the offensive. Sidious was indeed on the defensive. He didn't WANT to fight. His goals were simply to live and fight another day (or not, lol). Yoda never once broke through Sidious's defenses. Sidious was simply blocking. He wasn't looking to kill. Merely to survive.

That proves what ?
Yoda didn't broke through Dookus defence and Dooku ATTACKED Yoda for serveral times where Sidious wasn't able to do so.

So yes. I would say Sidious IS something compared to Yoda and Dooku. Notice I didn't say superior. But you tend to put down Sidious's skills way too much.

Yoda is better than Dooku. Dooku is better or at least on the same level as Mace. Mace disarmed Sidious in 30 seconds. Now tell me again that Sidious is as good as Yoda or Dooku in a straight lightsaber duel.

If the Jedi Masters were caught off guard, why were their lightsabers drawn and ignited, Nai?

Sidious clearly talked them into focusing on his mind (so they weren't concentrated).
Than his attack was a total surprise (which gave him the edge on Fisto and Kolar). If you ever watched "Monthy Python and the Holy Grail" Sidious would be like that rabbit who is attacking the knights. Would you expect some old politician attack 4 armed Jedi masters ?

So again Sidious caught his opponents off guard. Compare that to somebody like Dooku who could waste ROTS Obi-Wan + ROTS Anakin in a straight lightsaber duel WITHOUT any advantage taken from surprise.

- Why didn't George say: "You need DOOKU, Mace, or Yoda to compete with The Emperor"?

Why should he say that ? That fight would never happen. Having Nick Gillard say that Dooku is the best lightsaber duelist at that time with Yoda as only exception is good enough for me.

- Where is your proof Dooku has as much raw power as Sidious?

Where did I ever say he has ? I only said he has not much less raw power compared to Sidious. And while I actualy provided some proof for it, you didn't provide ANY proof for you point of view.

- Where is your proof he is LEAGUES above Sidious in lightsaber combat?

Is Mace leagues above Sidious in lightsaber combat when he can disarm Sidious in 30 seconds ? I think so. And Dooku is better than / equal to Mace.

- Why is possibly catching someone off guard BAD?

Because this is a versus thread and there is nothing like suprising your opponent when he doesn't know you will attack him. So that isn't bad but things done with the advantage of surprise or catching someone off guard don't have any relevance for a versus thread.

- Why didn't he kill Sidious if (as you said) Count Dooku could've done everything Sidious did by himself?

Did you ever read my posts ? I clearly said that Dooku could NOT have done everything Sidious did at least NOT without acting against his own ideals and not without having the Jedi keep an eye on him. Because for doing what Sidious did:

a) Dooku must have used his immense wealth to buy some Senators and he won't do that since he hates politicians AND corruption
b) He hadn't the time to gain that kind of political influence.
c) He had to be in a situation where nobody would have recognised him as a powerful force user.

So within the films it was impossible for him to do what Sidious did.

- If Sidious is "NOTHING" compared to Yoda, why didn't Yoda strike him down, disarm him, or both?

Because Yoda is not fast in "killing" people. Did you ever mention how long this fight did go with the lightsabers ? That started with reaching the chancelors place in the senate and ended when that platform reached it's highest point AND Sidious was in the middle of that platform while Yoda had to jump around outside (advantage for Sidious) then they throw those pods around and you see that Yoda is more powerful than Sidious and then Yoda has the bad luck loses his lightsaber and falls down.

In a "fair" fight and this wasn't a fair fight, Yoda would have killed Sidious. Mace was about to do so after less than a minute and he was inferior to Yoda in both: lightsaber combat AND force use. And Dooku would simply do the same that Mace did maybe even faster.

Also, if Dooku had used his money to bribe Senators, that would have been the corruption he was trying to destroy.

Hey Glentract here is your sig incase you missed the other post. Just let me know if you want any other changes.

i found it. its awsome!

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
i found it. its awsome!

Cool I'm glad you like it.

Lol. Whatever Nai. You win.

Cool signature, Revan and Glen.

Edit: Actually, Nai, it says on Yoda's Star Wars.com databank that Sidious was too powerful for Yoda to defeat. Check it out if you don't believe me. It also says that both were "the two most powerful practitioners of the Force's opposite sides - Light and Dark" during Revenge of the Sith. Not "Dooku and Yoda".

Second Edit: Um...as for the EYES excuse...Yoda's hand is parallel with his chest. Not his eyes. So you have only speculation, Nai. Can't you just come to grips with the facts that Sidious isn't as weak as you'd like to believe and that he CAN give Yoda hell?

Third Edit: Damn...I'm full of these edits. Can you deliver me a quote where he had them look into his mind? Or are you going from the novel. If you're speculating from what the novel said, it also said Yoda got his ass handed to him by Sidious. So...yeah...if you have a quote (not saying that you don't) I want to see it.

And if Dooku was on the Jedi Council he would be second instead of Mace but he defied the council a lot just like Qui-Gon.

Yep. Dooku didn't want the Jedi Order to become the pets of the politicians.

Dooku was actually right.

Yep, I agree. Count Dooku's original views were moral, ethical, and right. But when he became Tyrannus, he turned into Palpatine's lackey and personal thug. If he maintained on the straight and narrow, perhaps things would've ended differently for The Republic.

Like no Galactic Empire?

It would've at least been more difficult for Darth Sidious, had Count Dooku not join him. Count Dooku was charismatic and intelligent. He was no mastermind - well not on Sidious's solitary level - but he had his uses. He was more useful than Maul or GG.

Lol. Wouldn't that be cool if he actually KEPT all of his thugs? Wonder how the Rebels would fare against Vader, Maul, Dooku, GG and Sidious?

And think about it. If Dooku went with Mace to kill Sidious...Sidious wouldn't be no Emperor.

I dunno. Dooku better advise Mace not to recite his Acadamy Award speech...I swear. I HATE monologuing. Bond Villains do it. Palpatine did it in every movie...and now the heroes.

If you're gonna kill someone, DO IT! And THEN gloat to their carcass...