Dooku vs. Sidious

Dooku dosen't have any raw power? He kicked Anakin like a mule in ROTS. I would also like to add that when he fought Yoda in AOTC he and Yoda were clapping blades and in ROTS when Yoda fought Sidious Sidious was on the total defense end of the duel. Dooku is easily a better swordsmen and I feel that he is a better force user because of all the powers he learned. All Sidious ever showed us is Lightning granted it's powerfull but I need to see more coming from Sidious before I think he could truly match Yoda,Dooku, or Mace.

Makashiman, you're delivering what is commonly known as bias. Or in this case, fanboyism. And your arguments are not supported. In the very slightest.

Anakin WAS beaten by Count Dooku. But sure as hell not by raw power. Count Dooku was smarter and the better swordsman. But no one can compete with Anakin - especially in the prequel movies - in raw power.

So, I have some questions for you, if you don't mind.

1. If Count Dooku is superior in all ways, why was he the apprentice?

2. If Count Dooku knew everything, why did he join Sidious in the first place.

3. If Count Dooku was as great as you make him sound, why did he not kill and usurp Sidious and declare himself the Dark Lord?

1) Stop twisting our words; we didn't say that he was superior iin all ways. We said that Sidious didn't outclass him in all the ways you said. According to you, Sidious would easily own Dooku in a battle. That is complete and utter bull. It wouldn't go the other way easily, either, but if Sidious DID happen to beat Dooku, it would be with the utmost difficulty.

2) The Count doesn't know everything you nimrod. This is starting to piss me off. . . Dooku had searched out the Sith Lord to try and kill him. But then, he realized that the two shared similar feelings and views on the corruption of the Republic, on the corruption of the Jedi Order. So, when Sidious told Dooku of his plan, the Sith Lord was eager to do his part, and to set the galaxy right once more.

3) Well now, Dooku was a political idealist, and a shrewd man in his own right. Sidious had planned this for decades, and only he could pull it off. If Sidious had usurped control of the galaxy and, as promised, had Dooku at his side, the Count may well have attempted it. The only reason Dooku joined the Sith was to reinstate control in the galaxy. What would be the point in killing the one man who could pull it off?

And in a previous post, you stated that Dooku had inferior power to Mace and Obi-Wan. . . Mace is a contender, close to Dooku. But Obi-Wan? He'd get ripped to pieces. And Anakin has superiors in Raw Force Power in the prequels, namely Yoda, Sidious, Dooku, Mace, and to a lesser degree, Obi-Wan, who's knowledge and experience helps him againt Anakin. Anakin has potential, but as of ROTS, and even throughout both trilogies, the named Jedi are his superiors, save for Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Count Dooku is a master of Makashi, which is easily the greatest form of lightsaber dueling in the prequel movies - and possibly in the entire Star Wars universe. He handles himself expertly and efficiently. He is not physically powerful, but instead relies on precision and accuracy. He has around eight decades of experience in dueling and using the Force, so he is quite the combatant. He uses strategy in his dueling. He could never compete with Yoda, Sidious, Mace, or Obi-Wan in sheer power. Instead, he makes up for it in combat intelligence and dueling skill.

Damnit. We saw that he could compete with Yoda in sheer power. We know that he bested Mace serveral times and we also saw that he defeated Obi-Wan at least twice.
So what do you want to tell us ? That somebody who is one of the best Jedi the order had in the past centuries, who is definitely council level (he was not in the council because his views contradicted that of the council often) with 8 decades of force practice is BELOW Obi-Wan and Mace ? You must be joking. Really.

Count Dooku is also a master of the Force, you could say. He is adept in most - if not all - of the Sith Arts - including the deadly Force Lightning. We do not know the full extent of his powers compared to Darth Sidious's, but we would assume that naturally, Sidious's is more powerful. He is the master and is obviously possesses more knowledge of the Force - and of the Dark Side - than Dooku.

Of course Sidious has more knowledge about the dark side BUT Dooku had 18 years more time to learn about the force. So Sidious isn't "clearly" more powerful compared to Dooku.

Darth Sidious is also an expert swordfighter, despite that which Nai, Windu, and Janus say. He slayed three Jedi Masters with little effort, though he did have trouble with Mace Windu (according to the Star Wars site, Windu beat him) and Master Yoda. He is NOT as precise or as efficient as Count Dooku, yet he is much more of a powerhouse. He and Yoda are similar in that respect. Both manipulate the Force to make up for their lack of mobility, whereas Makashi only requires the combatant to stay still - instead of flips and jumps.

Sorry to say that but you are the biased fanboy here.

a) Sidious is NOWHERE near Yoda in lightsaber skill. That is why he ran away from a "fair" duel. He knew he would get killed.

b) Mace who is not as good as Dooku and not as good as Yoda defeated Sidious in 30 seconds. So what the hell makes you think that Sidious will beat Dooku in a duel ?

Sidious is obviously more skilled and smarter in the ways of the Force, despite his younger age than Dooku. It would not be lying to claim that Sidious has the greater Force Connection. He is younger, and yet he manipulates the Force in ways we have not seen Dooku do. He is sort of omniscent in a sort of way. Dooku was, for all of his skill, in the end, a mere pawn.

More fanboy crap. Do you have any proof for that stuff ? And did you ever mention that there seems to be more physical power behind Dookus lightning than there is behind Sidious one. Sidious threw Yoda 3 metres wide...Dooku threw Anakin across an entire room and Dooku used that lightning without great effort where it ravaged Sidious mortal frame when he used it against Mace.

So again: What makes you think that Sidious is more powerful ?

Sidious has a mastery of the Force that Dooku doesn't seem to compare to. Dooku has fired Force lightning from Yoda, who turned it away with a negligant flip of his wrist. However, whilst combating Sidious - he is strained and it requires a great deal of effort. Sidious HAS - in fact - overwhelmed Yoda's defenses and blasted him across the room. Dooku has not overpowered Yoda once, as far as we know, using the Force - whereas Sidious did.

Did Sidious ever do something without having the advantage of surprise on his side ? Throwing Yoda across the room = surprising Yoda, killing the 3 Jedi Masters = suprising them.

Just to compare that situations. Sidious did shoot his lightning on Yoda from max. 5 metres range and later they were directly in front of each other. Still he didn't manage to pass Yodas defences again. So what ?

1. If Count Dooku is superior in all ways, why was he the apprentice?

2. If Count Dooku knew everything, why did he join Sidious in the first place.

3. If Count Dooku was as great as you make him sound, why did he not kill and usurp Sidious and declare himself the Dark Lord?

1.) He is superior in lightsaber combat and he is slightly inferior when it comes to force use. Still Sidious can't overpower him with force powers and will lose in a lightsaber duel. And I already explained to you why Dooku is the apprentice.

2.) I did explain that also. Please read my posts.

3.) I also explained that thing. Again: Read my posts.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Makashiman, you're delivering what is commonly known as bias. Or in this case, fanboyism. And your arguments are not supported. In the very slightest.

Anakin WAS beaten by Count Dooku. But sure as hell not by raw power. Count Dooku was smarter and the better swordsman. But no one can compete with Anakin - especially in the prequel movies - in raw power.

If anyone in here is a fanboy it's you. "Sidious is an execelent swordsman" yeah right. I am not a fanboy I am just saying that Sidious dosen't show alot of force powers to us. I am not saying that Sidious is a little weakling but if he were so powereful why then didn't he try to do what Revan did to the republic? All he did is manipulate the politicians, granted he is a good manipulater but it does make a statement about someone when all they do is manipulate. I dislike Revan alot but I do admire his boldness in trying to take over the republic by force.

Nai, I see you're showing your true colors.

NOTHING near Yoda in lightsaber skill? Pardon me, during the initial part of the fight, where did Yoda strike down Sidious? Where did Yoda disarm Sidious and remove his lightsaber. WHERE? He didn't. 😄

Now. Let's look again. Yoda came into the duel, and rendered the Guard unconscious. And then he and Sidious engaged in some egotistical banter. Sidious raised his arms - and BLASTED Yoda across the room. Lol, you say he was caught off guard?

Before the lightning hit him, Yoda dropped his cane - and moved to block the lightning. It overwhelmed his defenses and sent him flying. Count Dooku has never harmed Yoda, to our knowledge, whereas Sidious has. Again. Nice try. 😄

Ehem. Let's see. Why DIDN'T he do what Revan did?

1. Because it apparently didn't work when REVAN did it.

2. Revan was couragous. Sidious was a coward.

3. Sidious liked to remain in control of things. Whereas Revan controlled his Sith Empire, Sidious always controlled both sides of the war, save for the Galactic Civil War (which is again, more like the Revolution).

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Nai, I see you're showing your true colors.

NOTHING near Yoda in lightsaber skill? Pardon me, during the initial part of the fight, where did Yoda strike down Sidious? Where did Yoda disarm Sidious and remove his lightsaber. WHERE? He didn't. 😄

Now. Let's look again. Yoda came into the duel, and rendered the Guard unconscious. And then he and Sidious engaged in some egotistical banter. Sidious raised his arms - and BLASTED Yoda across the room. Lol, you say he was caught off guard?

Before the lightning hit him, Yoda dropped his cane - and moved to block the lightning. It overwhelmed his defenses and sent him flying. Count Dooku has never harmed Yoda, to our knowledge, whereas Sidious has. Again. Nice try. 😄

And i'm the fanboy? Yoda did move to block the lightning so what, he was caught off gaurd Sidious din't do much to block that force push.

And perhaps you all underestimate my own definition of raw power and why I say Count Dooku doesn't have it compared to Sidious and Yoda. As I said, Count Dooku does not - nor has he really ever - portrayed the sense of raw power.

Anakin Skywalker has the largest resevoir of raw power in the movie. It is relatively undisciplined, yet still deadly, because it is uncontrolled and strong. Count Dooku is an old man. Even with the Force, he does not compare to the raw, undisciplined sheer power of Anakin.

Yoda and Palpatine are like Anakin in lesser respects. I'd say Yoda's skill with the Force is greater than his skills with a saber. The same for Palpatine. Palpatine has an ambigious style of swordplay. He is no where near as efficient, calm, or calculated in battle when compared to the likes of Dooku, Obi-Wan, and Mace.

Palpatine has the advantage in sheer uncontrolled power. When has Dooku expressed that which Yoda and Sidious have done? The various flips and acrobatic movements that are associated with Ataro and so forth. He doesn't.

This is NOT an insult to Dooku. Clearly his style works the best. He is measured, calm, and calculated. He doesn't NEED to flip back and forth. I would say he's the best duelist - better than Yoda or Sidious. But he probably couldn't win due to their sheer power.

And also. In the Making of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith book, George says: "You need Mace or Yoda to compete with Sidious." - hence the deaths of the three Jedi Masters. Notice that he doesn't say Dooku.

So you can either deduce:

A. George is implying that Dooku could not compete with his master.
B. George may not think to include Dooku.

Now some of you may say, "well I don't give a care what Lucas says". So be it. Then that means all of the proof you have - taken from the movies or otherwise - is non-existant. If you do claim that Lucas's opinion is not important or irrelevant - then the very fabric of Star Wars is indeed torn.

IF you say that, all shreds of Dooku being greater than Sidious fade away. Beggers can't be choosers. This was a direct quote from the book.

Makashi -

Sidious didn't catch Yoda off guard. And IF he did - it's an inability on Yoda's part. He should've been paying attention. Nai contributes the victories of Sidious on his ability to catch people off guard.

1. Catching people off-guard in a fight is honorable. They should be paying attention. It's their own damn fault for having a short attention span. Defeating someone by outmaneuvering them is logical and inexcusable. One of your intellect ought to know.

2. The Jedi had their sabers drawn and ignited. They were prepared. But they were outclassed and overpowered. Yoda tried to block the lightning, but was overwhelmed.

And yes, Sidious did NOT block the Push. Is it possible to block a Force push? If so, shame on Sidious for being arrogant.

See?

Originally posted by Darth Windu
1) Stop twisting our words; we didn't say that he was superior iin all ways. We said that Sidious didn't outclass him in all the ways you said. According to you, Sidious would easily own Dooku in a battle. That is complete and utter bull. It wouldn't go the other way easily, either, but if Sidious DID happen to beat Dooku, it would be with the utmost difficulty.

2) The Count doesn't know everything you nimrod. This is starting to piss me off. . . Dooku had searched out the Sith Lord to try and kill him. But then, he realized that the two shared similar feelings and views on the corruption of the Republic, on the corruption of the Jedi Order. So, when Sidious told Dooku of his plan, the Sith Lord was eager to do his part, and to set the galaxy right once more.

3) Well now, Dooku was a political idealist, and a shrewd man in his own right. Sidious had planned this for decades, and only he could pull it off. If Sidious had usurped control of the galaxy and, as promised, had Dooku at his side, the Count may well have attempted it. The only reason Dooku joined the Sith was to reinstate control in the galaxy. What would be the point in killing the one man who could pull it off?

And in a previous post, you stated that Dooku had inferior power to Mace and Obi-Wan. . . Mace is a contender, close to Dooku. But Obi-Wan? He'd get ripped to pieces. And Anakin has superiors in Raw Force Power in the prequels, namely Yoda, Sidious, Dooku, Mace, and to a lesser degree, Obi-Wan, who's knowledge and experience helps him againt Anakin. Anakin has potential, but as of ROTS, and even throughout both trilogies, the named Jedi are his superiors, save for Obi-Wan.

1. I didn't say Dooku would get owned. Please tell me where. If I did, I'll apologize.

2. Name calling? I'm hurt. Civilized debate. Try to remain hospitable. It is a lack of capability to off and namecall when arguing. Lol, so keep it clean. Try to win the argument, instead of resorting to comments that clearly show your inability to do so.

3. You mis-understand. Obi-Wan could never have defeated Dooku. I wasn't implying that he could. It was an error on my part. I meant to compare Obi-Wan and Dooku. How they were alike in many ways, being smart and controlling during their duels. Never to say Dooku would be defeated by him. And it was RAW power. I never meant Force power. In RAW power, he is probably inferior to Mace.

4. Aaah good. I was looking forward for you to say that. Sidious was indeed the only person who could pull it off. And as for Count Dooku being shrewd, THAT is why I so defended him when people said Sidious just manipulated his ass. Dooku is too smart to be duped completely.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
More fanboy crap. Do you have any proof for that stuff ? And did you ever mention that there seems to be more physical power behind Dookus lightning than there is behind Sidious one. Sidious threw Yoda 3 metres wide...Dooku threw Anakin across an entire room and Dooku used that lightning without great effort where it ravaged Sidious mortal frame when he used it against Mace.

1. It was a bit more than three meters. It was the entire length of the office. But then you need to understand. Anakin was charging at Dooku, and did not apparently have the ability to block the Force lightning. It is easier, Nai, to throw someone when they are running at you (using momentum) than it is to throw someone standing completely still.

2. Yoda dropped his cane and went to block to the lightning as it neared him. Yoda succeeded in getting his hands up. The lightning briefly stopped - but it overloading his defenses - and sent him flying. Meaning the lightning had to overcome a barrier (if only for a slight second) whereas Dooku's did not.

3. Hmmm. I'm not following you here. It ravaged Sidious's frame when the lightning was reflected back via Mace's lightsaber. However, perhaps you mean on the Star Wars site, on Sidious's databank entry, where it says "Sidious became a well of dark side energies". Apparently this is meant to convey that the Dark Side was immensely strong in Sidious's body. Meaning that it was powerful within him. I recall no such quote about Dooku. It is only testimony that Dooku lacks the raw power Sidious has.

I apologize for tackling this one at a time. I would simply quote Nai's statements and begin my rebuttle, but that would be a particularly long post.

Anyways. Count Dooku is indeed one of the most powerful and skilled Jedi we've seen. Proof is indicated as such on the Star Wars site. Now if you will kindly review my posts - you will see that I am not being biased.

I, Nai, give more credit to Dooku and Sidious than you do. You clearly support Dooku. You've made implications that Dooku could do that which Sidious did. You have given a few sideglance compliments, such as "it was Sidious's plan BUT it was Dooku's charisma..."

And that is where YOU show YOUR bias. I've admitted on numerous occasions just how powerful and under-rated Count Dooku is. So don't dare call ME the fanboy or the biased one. YOU are.

Um. A reason Dooku didn't kill Sidious may be that Sidious was the Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic and Dooku barely had any contact with Sidious face to face. And Sidious killed 3 Jedi Masters but Dooku bested Anakin and Obi-Wan who are better then those 3 Jedi Masters. Sidious had to distance himself from Yoda and was always on the defense while Dooku matched Yoda blade for blade and went on the attack. Yoda was gasping for air after that short time against Dooku. Sidious is the master because he was fully trained in the DarkSide and Dooku was a Jedi Master who has honor. Dooku wouldn't kill someone from the back like most Sith do. Plus in ROTS Dooku was toying with Anakin and Obi-Wan. And if you say Yoda struggled to throw Sidious's lighting back look again. Yoda was completely focused and was waiting for Sidious to give in before throwing it back at him and Sidious knew this. Mace Windu defeated Sidious and Dooku is better then Mace. Dooku proved to be able to match Yoda blade for blade and defeat the 2 Greatest Heroes of the Clone War. And it is possible to block a Force Push. Since this is in the EU forum I can bring up the games since they are EU.
Using my fav. Star Wars game Jedi Outcast; Kyle Katarn tried to force push a Dark Jedi and even Desann but they were able to block it.

The Star Wars databank supports me, as does Wikipedia, and various events in the movies, Nai Fohl. Sidious is obviously someone you don't like, and it is obvious in your posts. Your comments are like those of many. You insult and you conceal it with statements like "I call them like I see them" or "Evidence proves my theory" or you may even pin the "fanboyism" on myself.

I've given more proof than you. Count Dooku wouldn't be owned. But it is my belief, supported by evidence, that he would be defeated in the end, by his master.

Originally posted by Arbiter
Um. A reason Dooku didn't kill Sidious may be that Sidious was the Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic and Dooku barely had any contact with Sidious face to face. And Sidious killed 3 Jedi Masters but Dooku bested Anakin and Obi-Wan who are better then those 3 Jedi Masters. Sidious had to distance himself from Yoda and was always on the defense while Dooku matched Yoda blade for blade and went on the attack. Yoda was gasping for air after that short time against Dooku. Sidious is the master because he was fully trained in the DarkSide and Dooku was a Jedi Master who has honor. Dooku wouldn't kill someone from the back like most Sith do. Plus in ROTS Dooku was toying with Anakin and Obi-Wan. And if you say Yoda struggled to throw Sidious's lighting back look again. Yoda was completely focused and was waiting for Sidious to give in before throwing it back at him and Sidious knew this. Mace Windu defeated Sidious and Dooku is better then Mace. Dooku proved to be able to match Yoda blade for blade and defeat the 2 Greatest Heroes of the Clone War. And it is possible to block a Force Push. Since this is in the EU forum I can bring up the games since they are EU.
Using my fav. Star Wars game Jedi Outcast; Kyle Katarn tried to force push a Dark Jedi and even Desann but they were able to block it.

1. Dooku could have attempted to kill Palpatine on the Federation cruiser in Revenge of the Sith (hell, Palpatine was CHAINED) if he wanted to. Dooku also have attempted to do it on Coruscant, at the end of Attack of The Clones. So don't dare say he didn't have opportunties.

2. What proof do you have to indicate Obi-Wan and Anakin are better? They surely wouldn't be owned, but WHERE does it say it or hint it?

3. People argue Dooku bested Mace in times previous, where Mace was younger and had less experience. I'd agree Dooku is better. But that's just me.

4. Dooku is not a Jedi Master during Attack of The Clones. We see that he is willing to kill, murder, and torture if necessary. Don't blame his failure on morals. He possesses precious few when he joined Sidious.

5. Yoda was injured in the duel with Sidious. From the fall, from the lightning attack, and from the strain of blocking the attacks afterward. The expressions he used were clearly more evidential of effort than when he dueled with Dooku.

So. As for the Yoda and Sidious duel, which so many of you love to bring up...

Yoda and Sidious dueled with lightsabers initially - after trading blows with the Force. Sidious fried Yoda's ass and Yoda nailed him with a Force Push. Sidious tried to flee (he IS a coward and JUST met his goals to conquer the galaxy).

Yoda's Goal: Kill Sidious and end his reign of terror. Even at the risk of his own life.

Sidious's Goal: Survive the fight and live to rule the Empire.

Yoda's goals were selfless. He knew there was a possibility he could be defeated. Yet he was brave, and he went on to face Sidious to put a premature end to the Emperor's reign. Sidious, on the otherhand, just brilliantly executed a two-decade goal to conquer the galaxy - and here comes the Granddaddy of all Jedi to face him. He just wants to live.

Yoda and Sidious fight. Yoda is on the offensive (this isn't superiority, Arbiter. Anakin was on the offensive with Dooku, does that mean he was superior?) and Sidious, coward that he is, is on the defensive. Yoda always swings. Sidious always blocks. Back and forth this little merry-go-round goes. Yoda swings, Sidious blocks. Occasionally, Sidious will swing back - and Yoda blocks. Neither is besting the other.

This is, oddly, similar to Dooku vs Yoda. Both Dooku and Sidious were holding their own, but not gaining a true advantage. Both had prior engagements. Dooku: take the Death Star plans away. Sidious: Rule the Empire. So both tipped the odds. Dooku: threatened Obi-Wan and Mace. Sidious: Switched environments.

Odd how comparable they are.

And Arbiter, we've seen many things that video game characters can do that the movie people can't. For example:

- A cut from a lightsaber - whether it be Jedi Outcast or KOTOR - only costs a little bit of health and does not remove a limb. In the movies, however, the effect is more dangerous.

Lemme guess. The video game characters are more powerful? Lol. Explain to me THAT.