Originally posted by Darth Somebody
I purchased Attack of The Clones last night specifically for this argument. I have analyzed and re-watched the Dooku vs Yoda and Dooku vs Obi-Wan and Anakin duels numerous times.1) Anakin charged Dooku. Dooku was standing next to the rock wall and blasted Anakin. Anakin was carried off to the side and slammed into a wall roughly 10 to 15 feet away. So, Nai, he was not blasted across the entire room like you said.
When Palpatine blasted Mace - it shot him through the window and out 50 - 75 feet into the sky. Palpatine's lightning does indeed seem to be more powerful. But Palpatine was blasting with both hands. Dooku had to blast Anakin and then throw him 10-15 feet. Now. If you consider him using BOTH hands - the power is multiplied roughly by two. 15 x 2 equals 30. Still doesn't come up to the possible 20 feet difference.
2) When Count Dooku amputated Anakin's arm, Dooku powered down his lightsaber. He looked exhausted - and breathed a sigh of stress. He did not do it effortlessly. He was by far the superior combatant. But he was tired and slightly ebbed of energy. This goes to show that Dooku does not compare to Sidious or Anakin or Yoda in raw power.
3) When Count Dooku fought Yoda, he started the battle. It began as a battle of the Force. Dooku tried various strategies. He threw lightning a few times - as well as tried to drop rocks down on Yoda. Yoda at first strained, but through all back. Yoda and Dooku were standing roughly 20 feet apart. Dooku used one hand and fired at Yoda. Yoda caught it in his hand, bent his elbow, and thrust it back. With little effort.
Sidious, on the other hand - blasted Yoda across the room once. The blow - despite what many believe - severely injured Yoda. Yoda was certainly not done yet, but it hurt. Yoda tried to defend himself a second before the lightning struck (Nai says he was covering his eyes. Odd when Yoda's hand was parallel with his chest and no where near his eyes. Nai, you're slipping...). But Sidious overpowered him. Dooku never once breached Yoda's defenses. Sidious, my friend, has.
It also was extreme - and I do mean EXTREME - effort for Yoda to repel Sidious's lightning. Dooku's lightning was powerful - but not to the level of his master's.
4) Lord Sorgo also said Dooku took everything Yoda had and smiled. I don't know if he was being sarcastic (I doubt...) or if he was really serious. But he is, again, false. Dooku was gritting his teeth and stepping backward - shoving his saber forward. Also leaning back. Count Dooku is an excellent swordsman. But Yoda's maneuverability gave him trouble - and he did have some serious trouble.
This shows that Sidious is indeed more powerful in the Force than Dooku, whether one likes to admit it or not. Some say that Dooku fleed Yoda because he had the plans for the Death Star.
Perhaps. But if this were the case - and if he were toying with Obi-Wan and Anakin like you said - he would have been long gone before Yoda arrived.
So. Dooku was NOT toying with Obi-Wan or Anakin. This isn't insulting him. It's more believable. And hardpressed or not, Dooku still won against Anakin and Obi-Wan. Simultaneously and otherwise.
But - with this information delivered to me from the movie - as well as the fact that Sidious obviously has more knowledge of the Force - I do declare my opinion that Sidious does indeed win this duel in the end.
Thanks.
I guess you can look at a duck and see a goose, and I can't convince you otherwise, huh?
1- First off, how did you come across this figure for 10 to 15 feet away? Did you measure it or something? Second, compare Dooku's one handed blast (Which lasted for how long) versus Sidious' two-handed blast which lasts how long? Find a common ground to compare them besides distance. This is a stupid point to undermine Dooku. When Sidious blasted Mace, he electrocuted him for time, and then suddenly Mace flew. It's more likely that Sidious used a Force push at this point to shove the Jedi master out of the window once he had Mace in extreme pain and helpless, not that the lightning "suddenly" shot his ass out that far.
2- Raw power cannot be directly measured, and if your accessment of Dooku sighing not out of disgust or out of getting his heart rate up but out of losing power, than Yoda must have been destroyed from their duel, since he was wheezing like a fat person running uphill. Or did you forget that point when you watched and scrutinized the whole movie?
3- On the contrary, Yoda was grunting, saying "Much to learn... you still... have" when he was countering the one handed lightning. If that's effortless, Yoda should be on a breathing machine. As for ROTS and Sidious' first strike, Yoda hadn't even dropped his staff yet. Whether it was dramatic neccessity or plain ol' Yoda didn't expect the attack right then and there (Which doesn't make sense coming from a jedi master entering a sith lord's room, but I doubt GL was concerned with that point, among others...) Yoda -didn't- defend against the attack in time, or really, at all. He just absorbed it and landed back aways, with his cane closeby. Either Sidious got lucky or Yoda was perhaps playing on the Sith lord's arrogance. Who are you or I to question the mindset of a 900 year old being? Point is, there is no indication that Yoda was defending, nor nearly as ready as he was when he encountered Dooku. Sure, it doesn't make sense when you consider he was confronting a sith lord, but that's the way GL shot the movie. End of point.
4- Dooku had serious trouble? You must have watched the Yoda fanboy's version of the movie, because I've watched that fight half a dozen times in a row, and by all accounts Yoda had NO clear advantage over Dooku and if anything was BREATHING LIKE A WINDED OLD MAN after what was perhaps a minute of fighting! Yoda wasn't gasping from his saber duel with Sidious anywhere near that intensity. Dooku is clearly a much better saber user and if watching him again in AOTC in action wasn't proof of that you are without a doubt a helpless fanboy who can be lead to water, but never willing to drink it! I mean, back to the fight, if anything, Dooku was goading Yoda on, and was not winded in the least (Despite having fought Obi-Wan and Anakin, your Chosen One stronghouse god moments before!) he was able to use the Forc effectively enough to distract Yoda while holding his saber back! Oh my god, what does it take with you people?
Perhaps. But if this were the case - and if he were toying with Obi-Wan and Anakin like you said - he would have been long gone before Yoda arrived.
So. Dooku was NOT toying with Obi-Wan or Anakin. This isn't insulting him. It's more believable. And hardpressed or not, Dooku still won against Anakin and Obi-Wan. Simultaneously and otherwise.
Wow, where's the fact in that glob of bullshit? Oh wait... none...
ASSUMPTION: Dooku's idea of toying with Skywalker and Kenobi would have taken less than the fight did in the movie. Obviously toying is a very brief thing.
ASSUMPTION: Dooku was -not- toying with them. Support? It's "more believable" in Darth Somebody's eyes. Wow. BS.
Originally posted by Darth Somebody
I purchased Attack of The Clones last night specifically for this argument. I have analyzed and re-watched the Dooku vs Yoda and Dooku vs Obi-Wan and Anakin duels numerous times.1) Anakin charged Dooku. Dooku was standing next to the rock wall and blasted Anakin. Anakin was carried off to the side and slammed into a wall roughly 10 to 15 feet away. So, Nai, he was not blasted across the entire room like you said.
When Palpatine blasted Mace - it shot him through the window and out 50 - 75 feet into the sky. Palpatine's lightning does indeed seem to be more powerful. But Palpatine was blasting with both hands. Dooku had to blast Anakin and then throw him 10-15 feet. Now. If you consider him using BOTH hands - the power is multiplied roughly by two. 15 x 2 equals 30. Still doesn't come up to the possible 20 feet difference.
2) When Count Dooku amputated Anakin's arm, Dooku powered down his lightsaber. He looked exhausted - and breathed a sigh of stress. He did not do it effortlessly. He was by far the superior combatant. But he was tired and slightly ebbed of energy. This goes to show that Dooku does not compare to Sidious or Anakin or Yoda in raw power.
3) When Count Dooku fought Yoda, he started the battle. It began as a battle of the Force. Dooku tried various strategies. He threw lightning a few times - as well as tried to drop rocks down on Yoda. Yoda at first strained, but through all back. Yoda and Dooku were standing roughly 20 feet apart. Dooku used one hand and fired at Yoda. Yoda caught it in his hand, bent his elbow, and thrust it back. With little effort.
Sidious, on the other hand - blasted Yoda across the room once. The blow - despite what many believe - severely injured Yoda. Yoda was certainly not done yet, but it hurt. Yoda tried to defend himself a second before the lightning struck (Nai says he was covering his eyes. Odd when Yoda's hand was parallel with his chest and no where near his eyes. Nai, you're slipping...). But Sidious overpowered him. Dooku never once breached Yoda's defenses. Sidious, my friend, has.
It also was extreme - and I do mean EXTREME - effort for Yoda to repel Sidious's lightning. Dooku's lightning was powerful - but not to the level of his master's.
4) Lord Sorgo also said Dooku took everything Yoda had and smiled. I don't know if he was being sarcastic (I doubt...) or if he was really serious. But he is, again, false. Dooku was gritting his teeth and stepping backward - shoving his saber forward. Also leaning back. Count Dooku is an excellent swordsman. But Yoda's maneuverability gave him trouble - and he did have some serious trouble.
This shows that Sidious is indeed more powerful in the Force than Dooku, whether one likes to admit it or not. Some say that Dooku fleed Yoda because he had the plans for the Death Star.
Perhaps. But if this were the case - and if he were toying with Obi-Wan and Anakin like you said - he would have been long gone before Yoda arrived.
So. Dooku was NOT toying with Obi-Wan or Anakin. This isn't insulting him. It's more believable. And hardpressed or not, Dooku still won against Anakin and Obi-Wan. Simultaneously and otherwise.
But - with this information delivered to me from the movie - as well as the fact that Sidious obviously has more knowledge of the Force - I do declare my opinion that Sidious does indeed win this duel in the end.
Thanks.
I've watched AOTC several times two, and the fight scene is clearly in my memory: just in case it wasn't, I just popped in the DVD to check.
1) You said it yourself, Anakin CHARGED Dooku, and then got instantly blasted back INTO the wall.
So Dooku's one handed lightning instantly reversed Anakin's forward momentum, and sent Anakin flying back into the wall. Do you know exactly how far the wall is? No, and do you know exactly how far Anakin would have flown if he had no wall?
Sidious on the other hand was shooting up at Mace from an angle. Mace had no saber, he was disarmed, and sitting duck. Mace also stood there for several seconds, and then suddenly flew out the window. He wasn't instantly zapped, lifted off his feet, and blown back like Anakin.
2) By that same logic, Yoda looked winded after his fight with Dooku, while Dooku looked fine. You could argue Dooku only got out of there because of the clones coming. This argument can't be resolved because they "looked winded."
3) The first blow that took Yoda out, he still had his staff. He was clearly taken by surprise. When Sidious got up, he exposed himself, Yoda's eyes suddenly opened, indicating he wasn't exactly done for in the first place. And then later in the fight, Yoda was standing OUTSIDE the metal handlebars of the pod and deflected Sidious' two handed lightning back at him. Sidious' lightning doesn't look to be any stronger than Dooku's.
4.) Sidious more powerful in the force... perhaps. There's not enough conclusive evidence. But in a duel, you need to do more than just use the force. Sidious is probably stronger in the force than Mace, but Mace with his Shatterpoint and Vaapad beat Sidious in a minute's time.
Dooku is a Makashi master, he took out Anakin and Obi-Wan simultaneously and with relative ease. Then he held off Yoda and was able to escape him and the clones that followed after him. You may say Yoda "won" that, only because of the clones. In the same way, you can say Sidious "won" the Senate duel only because of those same said clones. Dooku is at the very least comparable to Sidious.
Originally posted by Illustrious
I've watched AOTC several times two, and the fight scene is clearly in my memory: just in case it wasn't, I just popped in the DVD to check.1) You said it yourself, Anakin CHARGED Dooku, and then got instantly blasted back INTO the wall.
So Dooku's one handed lightning instantly reversed Anakin's forward momentum, and sent Anakin flying back into the wall. Do you know exactly how far the wall is? No, and do you know exactly how far Anakin would have flown if he had no wall?
Sidious on the other hand was shooting up at Mace from an angle. Mace had no saber, he was disarmed, and sitting duck. Mace also stood there for several seconds, and then suddenly flew out the window. He wasn't instantly zapped, lifted off his feet, and blown back like Anakin.
2) By that same logic, Yoda looked winded after his fight with Dooku, while Dooku looked fine. You could argue Dooku only got out of there because of the clones coming. This argument can't be resolved because they "looked winded."
3) The first blow that took Yoda out, he still had his staff. He was clearly taken by surprise. When Sidious got up, he exposed himself, Yoda's eyes suddenly opened, indicating he wasn't exactly done for in the first place. And then later in the fight, Yoda was standing OUTSIDE the metal handlebars of the pod and deflected Sidious' two handed lightning back at him. Sidious' lightning doesn't look to be any stronger than Dooku's.
4.) Sidious more powerful in the force... perhaps. There's not enough conclusive evidence. But in a duel, you need to do more than just use the force. Sidious is probably stronger in the force than Mace, but Mace with his Shatterpoint and Vaapad beat Sidious in a minute's time.
Dooku is a Makashi master, he took out Anakin and Obi-Wan simultaneously and with relative ease. Then he held off Yoda and was able to escape him and the clones that followed after him. You may say Yoda "won" that, only because of the clones. In the same way, you can say Sidious "won" the Senate duel only because of those same said clones. Dooku is at the very least comparable to Sidious.
That deserved a Medal.
Very good... Nice awareness.
1- It is possible that Sidious indeed wanted Mace to suffer. Hence the battlecry of unlimited power. Sidious blasted Mace - who convulsed under the sheer power of the attack. Mace's entire body was fried, and it is likely his internal organs nearly sizzled due to the attack. In the same sense that I cannot say quite how powerful Dooku's attack is, you do not know if Sidious used a Force push or not. Perhaps Sidious allowed the lightning to charge up and then released him.
2- The question is, how do YOU know that Dooku was sighing out of disgust? This is inconclusive to you as well, Janus. Until you have a quote from Lucas that states: "Dooku was sighing out of contempt for Anakin and Obi-Wan", I will continue to state that the battle required effort from Dooku.
3- I'm not saying Dooku was weak. Yoda's handling of the lightning was effortless when compared to how he handled Sidious's. Yoda seemed to always require much more power when handling Sidious than against Dooku when it came to a battle of the Force. And I hardly think Yoda allowed himself to be blasted by Sidious in the first place. Though Yoda was most certainly not done for, he was blasted and Sidious did indeed score a hit. The screenshot I provided for Nai indicates that he tried to block the assault - but Sidious overpowered his fledgling defenses.
4- Anakin and Obi-Wan both pale in comparison to Count Dooku's skill. That much is obvious and remains undisputed. Still, Dooku didn't take out Anakin easily the second time around - and still emerged victorious. Proving that for all his skill, the effects of an old man (ie Yoda and Sidious) are still there. And I will also say that Dooku didn't have an advantage over Yoda, either. I don't recall Dooku ever getting close to striking Yoda down. In a particular scene of the duel, Dooku was gritting his teeth and his lips peeled back either as a sign of fear or annoyance. So the duel remained unfinished. No clear victor. But Dooku also had no advantage.
Illustrious...I don't seem to recall the clones in the Yoda and Sidious duel. Refresh my memory and tell me where they were again and how they threatened to interfere in the fight.
And yes. Dooku and Sidious are alike. But Sidious seems to have more knowledge of the Force, a superior connection with the Force, and even a superior mastery of the Force than Count Dooku. Dooku, likewise, has the superior combat skills, combat experience, and anything relating to non-Force used combat.
If Dooku nullifies Sidious's sheer advantage in the Force, he just might win. But if he lets his guard down or fails to render Sidious's mastery of the Force useless, then he is most certainly dead.
I have read all of this thread the full 18 pages and sighed up just to comment. I figured i would add something that was never really touched upon. In dark rendezvous ventress tried to talk dooku in to challenging palpatine. But he declined now why is that? Fact of the matter is dooku was an old man who really didn't have much ambition left. He even tells that to ventress with his speech about age.
That's not to say he couldn't beat sidious since this argument shows he has a good chance of beating him. But dooku never would challenge his power, that simple. I think if dooku ever wanted to go up against the dark lord he has a very high chance of winning. Sids would never see it coming for one thing. Though I'm sure he would make a speech so he would know he planned to fight, i mean he would have never seen dooku betraying him.
Really dooku is just about the best duelist in the galaxy and really it just seems like age had finally caught up with him in his ep3 fight. Palapatine is no push over but he is clearly not a good duelist, mace did beat him and dooku is on par with yoda and yoda is stronger than mace. That alone shows you he has a high chance of beating him. Could dooku conquer the galaxy the way palps did? No. But that has little to no bearing on a fight between them. It's close but i would give it to dooku.
Originally posted by Darth Somebody
1- It is possible that Sidious indeed wanted Mace to suffer. Hence the battlecry of unlimited power. Sidious blasted Mace - who convulsed under the sheer power of the attack. Mace's entire body was fried, and it is likely his internal organs nearly sizzled due to the attack. In the same sense that I cannot say quite how powerful Dooku's attack is, you do not know if Sidious used a Force push or not. Perhaps Sidious allowed the lightning to charge up and then released him.2- The question is, how do YOU know that Dooku was sighing out of disgust? This is inconclusive to you as well, Janus. Until you have a quote from Lucas that states: "Dooku was sighing out of contempt for Anakin and Obi-Wan", I will continue to state that the battle required effort from Dooku.
3- I'm not saying Dooku was weak. Yoda's handling of the lightning was effortless when compared to how he handled Sidious's. Yoda seemed to always require much more power when handling Sidious than against Dooku when it came to a battle of the Force. And I hardly think Yoda allowed himself to be blasted by Sidious in the first place. Though Yoda was most certainly not done for, he was blasted and Sidious did indeed score a hit. The screenshot I provided for Nai indicates that he tried to block the assault - but Sidious overpowered his fledgling defenses.
4- Anakin and Obi-Wan both pale in comparison to Count Dooku's skill. That much is obvious and remains undisputed. Still, Dooku didn't take out Anakin easily the second time around - and still emerged victorious. Proving that for all his skill, the effects of an old man (ie Yoda and Sidious) are still there. And I will also say that Dooku didn't have an advantage over Yoda, either. I don't recall Dooku ever getting close to striking Yoda down. In a particular scene of the duel, Dooku was gritting his teeth and his lips peeled back either as a sign of fear or annoyance. So the duel remained unfinished. No clear victor. But Dooku also had no advantage.
Illustrious...I don't seem to recall the clones in the Yoda and Sidious duel. Refresh my memory and tell me where they were again and how they threatened to interfere in the fight.
And yes. Dooku and Sidious are alike. But Sidious seems to have more knowledge of the Force, a superior connection with the Force, and even a superior mastery of the Force than Count Dooku. Dooku, likewise, has the superior combat skills, combat experience, and anything relating to non-Force used combat.
If Dooku nullifies Sidious's sheer advantage in the Force, he just might win. But if he lets his guard down or fails to render Sidious's mastery of the Force useless, then he is most certainly dead.
Darth Somebody, can you "refresh" my memory on where it states Sidious is more powerful in the Force than Dooku?
Dooku threw a stream of Lightning at Anakin and he flew into a wall. Now, if the wall wasn't there, how far do you think he would have gone? Now, Sidious charged up (IMO) and Mace went flying about thirty feet more than Anakin did in that room. Now if Dooku charged up his lightning and did the same to Anakin, how far do you think Anakin would go?
I also didn't see Luke go flying anywhere when Sidious did this to him. How old was Sidious in ROTJ? Around the same as Dooku?
Now, judging by the factor of the knowledge i have gathered, Luke didn't go flying for a reason. You think Sidious could have gotten weaker through age? It seems so, i mean he walks around on a Black Cane.
Oh, um, Sidious tried to run from Yoda at the beginning of the fight. Dooku ran after a long range of fighting. How pussy would Sidious look if he actually completed his goal and exited the room whereas Dooku stayed to fight Yoda for a while? That tells me something, Somebody.
M'kay. It doesn't really matter how they look. Sidious is a coward. I know it, and so does everyone else. The fact of the matter is - Sidious being a "pussy" doesn't make him any less powerful. He simply doesn't want to screw around with Yoda, which I believed was a very smart move on his part.
Sidious took over the galaxy, had the Jedi on its knees, and had executed his plan that spanned decades. So why the hell stay and duke it out with Yoda - when there are chances that you'll die?
Damn, Sorgo. It makes SENSE why Sidious tried to run.
Originally posted by Darth SomebodyIllustrious...I don't seem to recall the clones in the Yoda and Sidious duel. Refresh my memory and tell me where they were again and how they threatened to interfere in the fight.
And yes. Dooku and Sidious are alike. But Sidious seems to have more knowledge of the Force, a superior connection with the Force, and even a superior mastery of the Force than Count Dooku. Dooku, likewise, has the superior combat skills, combat experience, and anything relating to non-Force used combat.
If Dooku nullifies Sidious's sheer advantage in the Force, he just might win. But if he lets his guard down or fails to render Sidious's mastery of the Force useless, then he is most certainly dead.
Damn, I forgot to reply to this.
1- It is possible that Sidious indeed wanted Mace to suffer. Hence the battlecry of unlimited power. Sidious blasted Mace - who convulsed under the sheer power of the attack. Mace's entire body was fried, and it is likely his internal organs nearly sizzled due to the attack. In the same sense that I cannot say quite how powerful Dooku's attack is, you do not know if Sidious used a Force push or not. Perhaps Sidious allowed the lightning to charge up and then released him.
So if you can't tell and you can only speculate on the power of Sidious' blasts due to its inconsistant and factually unsupported nature, how can you argue that Dooku's is weaker? What basis do you have for that?
2- The question is, how do YOU know that Dooku was sighing out of disgust? This is inconclusive to you as well, Janus. Until you have a quote from Lucas that states: "Dooku was sighing out of contempt for Anakin and Obi-Wan", I will continue to state that the battle required effort from Dooku.
I thought this was obvious. I just pointed out to you that you can't assume that the sigh was from either disgust, old age, effort, exhaustion, being beaten down by a robeless jawa on crack... You don't have any real basis for making assumptions here. If you must conclude that Dooku was tired here and this is proof, then you must conclude that Yoda needed to take a five month nap, because he was wheezing like a fat asthmatic running a marathon after about thirty seconds of duelling with Dooku. He didn't sound too full of energy as he grunted and repelled that lightning. The same lightning that Dooku swatted away like it was a fly.
3- I'm not saying Dooku was weak. Yoda's handling of the lightning was effortless when compared to how he handled Sidious's. Yoda seemed to always require much more power when handling Sidious than against Dooku when it came to a battle of the Force. And I hardly think Yoda allowed himself to be blasted by Sidious in the first place. Though Yoda was most certainly not done for, he was blasted and Sidious did indeed score a hit. The screenshot I provided for Nai indicates that he tried to block the assault - but Sidious overpowered his fledgling defenses.
Sidious used two hands, and concentrated the attacks, often a point-blank range. Dooku merely shot a little bit out at Yoda from one hand, and then said "Well, **** it. I don't have all day. Let's fight this out." Yoda didn't overcome Dooku's lightning as he did Sidious (Under less favorable conditions, no less) Of course, you could argue that Yoda's intents behind both fights were different. You could argue many things. But what separates speculation from inference is the grounding in some kind of verifiable knowledge. I could speculate that Yoda is a jawa, but unless he said "Oooteenie" once or twice, I have nothing really to go on. Same applies here. When it comes to speculating into a person's intentions, in particular (unless they explicitly say "omfg, yoda's a flippin' jedi... im out!!!@@!"😉 you can at most make up several logical conclusions based on observations, and then begin the process of elimination to determine which one(s) are the most sound. Note I didn't say "Take a guess and say it's fact." That's not reasoning; that's more of this "IMO" crap. Notice I never ever say that, because having an opinion is not reflective of having a stance in an argument. I can't prove or disprove your opinion per se, but I can tear your stance apart if it's logically unsound.
4- Anakin and Obi-Wan both pale in comparison to Count Dooku's skill. That much is obvious and remains undisputed. Still, Dooku didn't take out Anakin easily the second time around - and still emerged victorious. Proving that for all his skill, the effects of an old man (ie Yoda and Sidious) are still there. And I will also say that Dooku didn't have an advantage over Yoda, either. I don't recall Dooku ever getting close to striking Yoda down. In a particular scene of the duel, Dooku was gritting his teeth and his lips peeled back either as a sign of fear or annoyance. So the duel remained unfinished. No clear victor. But Dooku also had no advantage.
And this paragraph reveals how you take on piece of evidence that supports your views and dismiss another. In this case, it's to weaken Dooku's ability so that Sidious isn't directly threatened. You're basically saying that Dooku had no advantage on Yoda, and that he was "gritting his teeth, etc.". Well, when you put this into a bigger picture, we see that actually Yoda was having to put far more effort into fighting Dooku than Dooku was fighting Yoda. How can I say that? Well, when Yoda is gasping for breath, saying how powerful Dooku has become at the end, DOoku (while holding his saber, in a calm, collect voice) reaches out and pulls something about the size of a bus down on Obi and Anakin. Yoda, still parrying the blow, must drop his lightsaber and fall into a quick meditation (or so it appears) to stop the falling object. Dooku is gone. Dooku was NOT nearly as destroyed as Yoda from that fight. Period. And yes, I have admitted in the past that Yoda doesn't have a clear advantage, and really, Dooku doesn't either. Yoda's too hard ot hit, and Nai (from scrutiny) says that Dooku didn't seem to have as much control as Yoda had, but without having the same slow time viewing experience (Since I only have the movie on tape and a video clip I found online which I haven't bothered to watch in frame by frame) I went by what I saw my fourth or fifth time straight watching the duel. And it remains that Dooku kept up pace, arguably better than Sidious did in ROTS, and with certainly more flair. Spinning parries behind his back are obscene when you consider how dangerous lightsabers really are. I'll comment more on this possibility when I rewatch the fight in slow mo, but for the time being let's agree that there was no truly clear advantage one way or the other. The deciding factor was that Dooku wasn't exhausted, Yoda was. For me, this seems pretty self-evident as Dooku being at least enough to give old Yoda problems, whereas Yoda never once trouble breathing while fighting Sidious, despite having to call on more acrobatics.
On the other side of things, that could be GL being inconsistant. Not like he is the most perfect director of all time.
EDIT: Damn, I wasn't done with this. I'll address the last three paragraphs now.
Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Illustrious...I don't seem to recall the clones in the Yoda and Sidious duel. Refresh my memory and tell me where they were again and how they threatened to interfere in the fight.And yes. Dooku and Sidious are alike. But Sidious seems to have more knowledge of the Force, a superior connection with the Force, and even a superior mastery of the Force than Count Dooku. Dooku, likewise, has the superior combat skills, combat experience, and anything relating to non-Force used combat.
If Dooku nullifies Sidious's sheer advantage in the Force, he just might win. But if he lets his guard down or fails to render Sidious's mastery of the Force useless, then he is most certainly dead.
This was inference from the fact that several Clone manned gunships under the Orders of Yoda were on their way after Dooku. Yoda didn't just appear there on his own. His had troopers, either waiting for him or on thier way. Point being, they exist. It's not a speculation coming out of BFN- the planet itself was under siege. Dooku would have been a moron to stay there and fight longer then he did. I'm rather surprised he escaped.
Second paragraph, proof please. You're making "IMO" guesses and not even showing us anything to support it. Sidious would of course have more knowledge than Dooku in Sith arts, since he was a Sith for decades, at least. But to say he has a "superior connection to the Force"? This is unfounded. Anakin supposively has a superior connection to the Force than anyone else in the series, and yet he couldn't overcome Obi-Wan in a Force push match. So obviously a connection to the Force only dictates something like your max potential, as opposed to your apparent ability. Try not to mince words so much, DS. Half the time we attack your statements, it's because of grandiose, careless words like this. As for "superior Force mastery", this is, as Illustrious said, inconclusive with the evidence we have on hand. Dooku never really shows us his all, and from what he's showed us in his "toying" with Anakin and Obi-Wan (as you yourself said, he was toying with them) his power is on-par with Yoda's or Sidious'. Period.
Third paragraph. This is obvious. Restating it is an attempt by you to appear neutral, despite having a clear bias in favor of Sidious (which is self evident in your constant arguing over his "superior" this and "superior" that, and basically being shot down or fought to a standstill by every heavy hitter on this board and even a few lightweights. So please, to avoid yourself future trouble, don't try to be all grandiose with your grammar, and avoid showing bias. K thnx.
I'd just like to touch on some terminology.
'Force-connection' is simply how well-attuned one is to the Force. Yoda, for example. The Force was literally his bodily self in some instances, for it flowed through him with such ease and perfection that it may have been his own blood. So, Anakin, while having the most potential, lacks a strong connection to the Force when compared to Yoda. He does, as he states, "Come from the outside world." He doesn't live in the Force, whereas Yoda does.
'Force power' is how much raw power a being possesses behind his or her attacks. This, however, can be built up, instead of inherited from birth, as was shown in the Mustafar Duel, when Kenobi and Darth Vader were locked in a Force assault. Now, Anakin, despite his superior potential, and at the time, raw power, lacked the experience and knowledge. Possessing, after all, 24 years more experience in the Force than someone gives you a necessary advantage, especially against someone like this Sith Lord.
However, not everyone would have been able to do this. Obi-Wan was a powerful Jedi in his own right, and so was able to stand up to Vader.
'Force Mastery' is how well a being knows various techniques and the ilk in relation to Force. This doesn't really need much explanation, so I'll pass.
I just wanted to clear up some common errors in wordplay here. I'm also damn bored. . .
So what you are suggesting is that Force connection is related not to attunement by birth, but by living more with the Force and through it. Like, Yoda's meditative, intuitive and Force reliant lifestyle versus Anakin who is just a hothead who uses the Force as one uses a tool. Effectively, could you say that Sidious is harmonious with the Force, or is using it as a tool?
Oh, Sidious would never use the Force as a tool for his own self. Remember, he states himself that he is just a tool of the Dark Side. A puppet through which great things can be accomplished. No, Sidious is in harmony with the Force, moreso than almost anyone of his time. Save for Yoda.
But everything else, yes, that is correct.