Originally posted by Count DookuTHE BOOK IS NOT CANON! KIT DID NOT LOSE HIS HEAD ON THE ROTS MOVIE, BUT HE DID ON THE BOOK. THE MOVIE IS THE RELEVANCY AND CORRECT BASIS OF WHAT HAPPENS IN THE STAR WARS UNIVERSE! IF SOMETHING IN THE BOOK WAS SORELY INCORRECT, THAT MAKES IT NOT CANON! LUCAS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BOOK AS WELL!
Shit son, the book ain't gospel. Go home.
I won't argue this any longer. Perhaps Count Dooku could best his master. But there really, to my knowledge, isn't any evidence that indicates that he COULD. He is one hell of a swordsman. But his Force powers and Force connection, Makashi, do not compare to his master's.
In a fair duel, Dooku. But if he lets his guard down just once, he's done for.
I purchased Attack of The Clones last night specifically for this argument. I have analyzed and re-watched the Dooku vs Yoda and Dooku vs Obi-Wan and Anakin duels numerous times.
1) Anakin charged Dooku. Dooku was standing next to the rock wall and blasted Anakin. Anakin was carried off to the side and slammed into a wall roughly 10 to 15 feet away. So, Nai, he was not blasted across the entire room like you said.
When Palpatine blasted Mace - it shot him through the window and out 50 - 75 feet into the sky. Palpatine's lightning does indeed seem to be more powerful. But Palpatine was blasting with both hands. Dooku had to blast Anakin and then throw him 10-15 feet. Now. If you consider him using BOTH hands - the power is multiplied roughly by two. 15 x 2 equals 30. Still doesn't come up to the possible 20 feet difference.
2) When Count Dooku amputated Anakin's arm, Dooku powered down his lightsaber. He looked exhausted - and breathed a sigh of stress. He did not do it effortlessly. He was by far the superior combatant. But he was tired and slightly ebbed of energy. This goes to show that Dooku does not compare to Sidious or Anakin or Yoda in raw power.
3) When Count Dooku fought Yoda, he started the battle. It began as a battle of the Force. Dooku tried various strategies. He threw lightning a few times - as well as tried to drop rocks down on Yoda. Yoda at first strained, but through all back. Yoda and Dooku were standing roughly 20 feet apart. Dooku used one hand and fired at Yoda. Yoda caught it in his hand, bent his elbow, and thrust it back. With little effort.
Sidious, on the other hand - blasted Yoda across the room once. The blow - despite what many believe - severely injured Yoda. Yoda was certainly not done yet, but it hurt. Yoda tried to defend himself a second before the lightning struck (Nai says he was covering his eyes. Odd when Yoda's hand was parallel with his chest and no where near his eyes. Nai, you're slipping...). But Sidious overpowered him. Dooku never once breached Yoda's defenses. Sidious, my friend, has.
It also was extreme - and I do mean EXTREME - effort for Yoda to repel Sidious's lightning. Dooku's lightning was powerful - but not to the level of his master's.
4) Lord Sorgo also said Dooku took everything Yoda had and smiled. I don't know if he was being sarcastic (I doubt...) or if he was really serious. But he is, again, false. Dooku was gritting his teeth and stepping backward - shoving his saber forward. Also leaning back. Count Dooku is an excellent swordsman. But Yoda's maneuverability gave him trouble - and he did have some serious trouble.
This shows that Sidious is indeed more powerful in the Force than Dooku, whether one likes to admit it or not. Some say that Dooku fleed Yoda because he had the plans for the Death Star.
Perhaps. But if this were the case - and if he were toying with Obi-Wan and Anakin like you said - he would have been long gone before Yoda arrived.
So. Dooku was NOT toying with Obi-Wan or Anakin. This isn't insulting him. It's more believable. And hardpressed or not, Dooku still won against Anakin and Obi-Wan. Simultaneously and otherwise.
But - with this information delivered to me from the movie - as well as the fact that Sidious obviously has more knowledge of the Force - I do declare my opinion that Sidious does indeed win this duel in the end.
Thanks.
Originally posted by Darth Somebody
I purchased Attack of The Clones last night specifically for this argument. I have analyzed and re-watched the Dooku vs Yoda and Dooku vs Obi-Wan and Anakin duels numerous times.1) Anakin charged Dooku. Dooku was standing next to the rock wall and blasted Anakin. Anakin was carried off to the side and slammed into a wall roughly 10 to 15 feet away. So, Nai, he was not blasted across the entire room like you said.
When Palpatine blasted Mace - it shot him through the window and out 50 - 75 feet into the sky. Palpatine's lightning does indeed seem to be more powerful. But Palpatine was blasting with both hands. Dooku had to blast Anakin and then throw him 10-15 feet. Now. If you consider him using BOTH hands - the power is multiplied roughly by two. 15 x 2 equals 30. Still doesn't come up to the possible 20 feet difference.
2) When Count Dooku amputated Anakin's arm, Dooku powered down his lightsaber. He looked exhausted - and breathed a sigh of stress. He did not do it effortlessly. He was by far the superior combatant. But he was tired and slightly ebbed of energy. This goes to show that Dooku does not compare to Sidious or Anakin or Yoda in raw power.
3) When Count Dooku fought Yoda, he started the battle. It began as a battle of the Force. Dooku tried various strategies. He threw lightning a few times - as well as tried to drop rocks down on Yoda. Yoda at first strained, but through all back. Yoda and Dooku were standing roughly 20 feet apart. Dooku used one hand and fired at Yoda. Yoda caught it in his hand, bent his elbow, and thrust it back. With little effort.
Sidious, on the other hand - blasted Yoda across the room once. The blow - despite what many believe - severely injured Yoda. Yoda was certainly not done yet, but it hurt. Yoda tried to defend himself a second before the lightning struck (Nai says he was covering his eyes. Odd when Yoda's hand was parallel with his chest and no where near his eyes. Nai, you're slipping...). But Sidious overpowered him. Dooku never once breached Yoda's defenses. Sidious, my friend, has.
It also was extreme - and I do mean EXTREME - effort for Yoda to repel Sidious's lightning. Dooku's lightning was powerful - but not to the level of his master's.
4) Lord Sorgo also said Dooku took everything Yoda had and smiled. I don't know if he was being sarcastic (I doubt...) or if he was really serious. But he is, again, false. Dooku was gritting his teeth and stepping backward - shoving his saber forward. Also leaning back. Count Dooku is an excellent swordsman. But Yoda's maneuverability gave him trouble - and he did have some serious trouble.
This shows that Sidious is indeed more powerful in the Force than Dooku, whether one likes to admit it or not. Some say that Dooku fleed Yoda because he had the plans for the Death Star.
Perhaps. But if this were the case - and if he were toying with Obi-Wan and Anakin like you said - he would have been long gone before Yoda arrived.
So. Dooku was NOT toying with Obi-Wan or Anakin. This isn't insulting him. It's more believable. And hardpressed or not, Dooku still won against Anakin and Obi-Wan. Simultaneously and otherwise.
But - with this information delivered to me from the movie - as well as the fact that Sidious obviously has more knowledge of the Force - I do declare my opinion that Sidious does indeed win this duel in the end.
Thanks.
hmmmmmm. Sids might be stronger in the force, but not by much, which means it comes down to Lightsaber Fighting. And Dooku is stronger, and after a long bout, Dooku will win, but will probably die soon after from wounds during the battle.
Originally posted by Darth Somebody
I purchased Attack of The Clones last night specifically for this argument. I have analyzed and re-watched the Dooku vs Yoda and Dooku vs Obi-Wan and Anakin duels numerous times.1) Anakin charged Dooku. Dooku was standing next to the rock wall and blasted Anakin. Anakin was carried off to the side and slammed into a wall roughly 10 to 15 feet away. So, Nai, he was not blasted across the entire room like you said.
When Palpatine blasted Mace - it shot him through the window and out 50 - 75 feet into the sky. Palpatine's lightning does indeed seem to be more powerful. But Palpatine was blasting with both hands. Dooku had to blast Anakin and then throw him 10-15 feet. Now. If you consider him using BOTH hands - the power is multiplied roughly by two. 15 x 2 equals 30. Still doesn't come up to the possible 20 feet difference.
2) When Count Dooku amputated Anakin's arm, Dooku powered down his lightsaber. He looked exhausted - and breathed a sigh of stress. He did not do it effortlessly. He was by far the superior combatant. But he was tired and slightly ebbed of energy. This goes to show that Dooku does not compare to Sidious or Anakin or Yoda in raw power.
3) When Count Dooku fought Yoda, he started the battle. It began as a battle of the Force. Dooku tried various strategies. He threw lightning a few times - as well as tried to drop rocks down on Yoda. Yoda at first strained, but through all back. Yoda and Dooku were standing roughly 20 feet apart. Dooku used one hand and fired at Yoda. Yoda caught it in his hand, bent his elbow, and thrust it back. With little effort.
Sidious, on the other hand - blasted Yoda across the room once. The blow - despite what many believe - severely injured Yoda. Yoda was certainly not done yet, but it hurt. Yoda tried to defend himself a second before the lightning struck (Nai says he was covering his eyes. Odd when Yoda's hand was parallel with his chest and no where near his eyes. Nai, you're slipping...). But Sidious overpowered him. Dooku never once breached Yoda's defenses. Sidious, my friend, has.
It also was extreme - and I do mean EXTREME - effort for Yoda to repel Sidious's lightning. Dooku's lightning was powerful - but not to the level of his master's.
4) Lord Sorgo also said Dooku took everything Yoda had and smiled. I don't know if he was being sarcastic (I doubt...) or if he was really serious. But he is, again, false. Dooku was gritting his teeth and stepping backward - shoving his saber forward. Also leaning back. Count Dooku is an excellent swordsman. But Yoda's maneuverability gave him trouble - and he did have some serious trouble.
This shows that Sidious is indeed more powerful in the Force than Dooku, whether one likes to admit it or not. Some say that Dooku fleed Yoda because he had the plans for the Death Star.
Perhaps. But if this were the case - and if he were toying with Obi-Wan and Anakin like you said - he would have been long gone before Yoda arrived.
So. Dooku was NOT toying with Obi-Wan or Anakin. This isn't insulting him. It's more believable. And hardpressed or not, Dooku still won against Anakin and Obi-Wan. Simultaneously and otherwise.
But - with this information delivered to me from the movie - as well as the fact that Sidious obviously has more knowledge of the Force - I do declare my opinion that Sidious does indeed win this duel in the end.
Thanks.
1) It sure as hell wasn't ten feet. Maybe more like ten metres.
You're pulling random numbers out of the sky; of course it looked like Mace went fifty feet, he got blasted out of a window possibly a kilometer in the air by Sidious' most powerful lightning. If you watched it carefully (I saw it for the third time Thursday) Mace rises in the air for a second after he is blasted out, and then the rest of the distance is covered by him falling first backwards/down, and then just sheer plummeting.
2) Yes, Dooku was slightly tired. But not winded. Anakin in AOTC was no pushover, not at all. He wasn't as superior in saber combat and power as in ROTS, but good nonetheless. He caught Dooku by surprise with the dual-wielding trick, but it took the Count only half a dozen swings to destroy his primary saber.
And what do you mean by this "raw power"? If you mean physical strength, of course he doesn't compare to Anakin, or maybe Obi-Wan; as of AOTC, he's more than twice Obi-WAn's age, and four times that of Anakin!
3) Your first statement helps our argument. He started the fight. Sidious, after blasting Yoda across the room, attempted to flee. Now, there is a reason, but this shows his level of confidence compared to that of Dooku.
Now, when you speak of how Yoda absorbed/reflected Dooku's lightning. . .
a) Dooku just raised his hand, and bolts of lightning came out. He was sneering. Now, Sidious was cackling like a madman, but he used both hands, not to mention Yoda failed to block it. In Dooku's case, Yoda had already blocked dropped his gimer stick, and then he stopped the blast with his hand. His hand was pushed back first, but a moment later, he deflected it. And they were more than twenty feet apart.
b) Yes, Sidious got off a good hit on Yoda. That, I will agree with. Yoda went to block it, but wasn't well prepared, not at all. He raised his hands, but the blast hit him square in the chest. As I said; it was a good hit. But I don't agree with your inference that the lightning attack took a lot out of Yoda. As you saw, he was up on his feet sending Sidious soaring across the room not ten seconds later.
And we've already cleared up the matter of the "struggle"; in order to repel the Emperor's most powerful lightning at point-blank range, Yoda had to use a good amount of his power himself, his "Force Armor" technique, as I've heard it called. However, he used far more energy than usual, possibly more than required. I'm not downgrading Sidious or his power, but it was the combined power colied between these two that made Yoda struggle. He had unleashed so much power that, colliding with Sidious, it became uncontrollable. In the effort to control this, he used more power to push the attack forward, into Sidious. Hence the reason for the split-second ball of violet/blue lighting that crackled between the two before it exploded.
4) He wasn't smiling, no. But he wasn't giving much ground either. In fact it was Yoda who was leping around him, hammering his defenses in an attempt to make him retreat, or find a weakness. Yoda didn't have to jump all around Sidious until that reached the podium; he leapt at him, sure, but straight towards him. And the Emperor gave ground the entire duel. Dooku? Nearly never.
And Sidious may well be more powerful than Dooku in terms of power; I won't question that. But it is not by a considerable, overwhelming amount. Even in a Force battle, Sidious would be rather hard-pressed.
Dooku WAS toying with Obi-Wan. Not Anakin. But Obi-Wan. For some time in the fight, it was fair, yes. Dooku was fighting hard, and Kenobi put up a good struggle. But then, Dooku initiates a saber lock, and mocking him, he wounds him debilitating him. In fact, he mocks himtwice during the duel.
Now, was he completely toying with him? Not completely, but you can see he wasn't in danger of losing, with either of these duelists.
Now, I believe that either of these combatants would be hard-pressed to defeat eachother. I'm not saying that Dooku would completely and utterly crush Sidious. But what I am saying is that he has a good chance of defeating his so-called master. Sidious has an excellent chance as well, but in a straight up duel where Sidious can't use his, I must say, excellent tactics, he wil most likely fall.
Dooku was unmatched in the Jedi Order. Dooku defeated Mace Windu before TPM and he could have done it again during ROTS. Dooku equalled Yoda in a lightsaber duel and would have won if not for the Clones and DeathStar plan. Yoda was out of breath and Dooku wasn't. Sidious got defeated by Mace and had to keep a distance from Yoda just to have hopes for victory. Dooku would win.
You're saying that in his sixties, after six decades of practice, Dooku hadn't mastered Makashi? Dooku grows in power from then on because of his Sith training; it's nearly impossible to get better than Dooku was then. But Mace, he was in his twenties or so. By ROTS, he's 53. He's improved drastically.
Dooku didn't start using form II for some time because Qui-Gon was using form IV and he most likely got it from Dooku who most likely got it from his master or Yoda. Obi-Wan was using form IV showing that he copied his master's form and Qui-Gon most likely learnt it from Count Dooku and it takes over 10-15 years to train a padawan.