Originally posted by Deus Ex
No, not really. But he's very opinionated and holds his opinion like it's God's given fact. Debating with him has gone from interesting to ****ing exhausting and I simply refuse to do it anymore.Darthsith, same thing. Tired of the same ol' same ol'. Some people will never change, and it's better to accept that and move on. This place is nearly dead and not worth my time anymore.
Palpatine's greatest asset is his mind, yes. In his own field of political skill, including manipulation and control, he has no equal. I agree that his most dangerous attribute is his ability to manipulate people so easily and so completely, when compared to his fighting ability. But then again it is also the reason why, in the long run, he is more dangerous than Dooku, Maul, Grievous, or any other modern entity.
But no. His fighting ability is good, and his Force attunement and Dark Side mastery is beyond any other Sith in the movies. But in lightsaber ability, he's no Dooku.
Originally posted by Escape81
Palpatine's greatest asset is his mind, yes. In his own field of political skill, including manipulation and control, he has no equal. I agree that his most dangerous attribute is his ability to manipulate people so easily and so completely, when compared to his fighting ability. But then again it is also the reason why, in the long run, he is more dangerous than Dooku, Maul, Grievous, or any other modern entity.But no. His fighting ability is good, and his Force attunement and Dark Side mastery is beyond any other Sith in the movies. But in lightsaber ability, he's no Dooku.
Sidious being stronger than Dooku in the Force still doesn't have venerable proof holding it above water.
It does.
The interesting thing about movie clips is this. You can't compare a lot of things. For example. You can't compare Sidious and Dooku's lightning. Sidious hasn't used it with one hand, and Dooku has never used it with two. You can't even compare their battles. Dooku was on even ground, Sidious was on uneven ground. Yoda was looking to kill Sidious whereas his objective was originally to capture Dooku. If it had not been, each time Dooku threw an object, Yoda would've chucked it back, instead of tossing it away.
So, thusly, it is rare for a comparison to be made between the two. But, logic plays an understanding role in this. Palpatine has been claimed on the Star Wars site as to be 'the most powerful practitioner of the Sith ways in modern times'. Also, 'he accessed so much Dark Side energy that it corrupted his frail form'. 'The Dark Side was so intense inside him that it was eating away his body, forcing him to instill his soul in clones'. '... A battle between the most powerful practitioners of the light and dark side.' 'Yoda and Sidious were the paragons of either side of the Force'.
These are statements from the official website. While Janus is correct that all of this is not directly from Lucas, if it were false, it wouldn't be posted on the site at all. Otherwise Lucas or his people would have gotten rid of it.
These statements are black and white. Obvious. It no where hints that Dooku is more powerful in the Force than his master. And if memory serves, Sorgo, you yourself agreed in the end with me.
Have you changed your mind?
Originally posted by Escape81
The interesting thing about movie clips is this. You can't compare a lot of things. For example. You can't compare Sidious and Dooku's lightning. Sidious hasn't used it with one hand, and Dooku has never used it with two. You can't even compare their battles. Dooku was on even ground, Sidious was on uneven ground. Yoda was looking to kill Sidious whereas his objective was originally to capture Dooku. If it had not been, each time Dooku threw an object, Yoda would've chucked it back, instead of tossing it away.
100 % agree.
So, thusly, it is rare for a comparison to be made between the two. But, logic plays an understanding role in this. Palpatine has been claimed on the Star Wars site as to be 'the most powerful practitioner of the Sith ways in modern times'. Also, 'he accessed so much Dark Side energy that it corrupted his frail form'. 'The Dark Side was so intense inside him that it was eating away his body, forcing him to instill his soul in clones'. '... A battle between the most powerful practitioners of the light and dark side.' 'Yoda and Sidious were the paragons of either side of the Force'.
Just to give you my personal opinion (disclaimer: Not a god given fact, not a fact at all - speculation):
I won't doubt that Sidious is the greatest practioner of the Dark Side in PT times because actually he had trained the ways of the Dark Side for a huge amount of time. Since he trained Maul for more than a decade and had to go through his own training he must have been a Dark Side practioner for more than 30 years in TPM times (is there a source which states when he did start his training exactly ?).
So of course he's the best Dark Sider practioner in the PT.
BUT
Does that really mean that Dooku can't still be a stronger force user compared to Sidious ? Sidious is stronger when it comes to the Dark Side but from the things that can be seen in the movies he doesn't have a HUUUUUUGE advantage here compared to Dooku (considering the fact that he spend at least 3 times as much time as Dooku did studying the Dark Side that can be interpretated in favour for Dooku because he could have a greater force potential).
Dooku:
- had at least 2 decades more force training compared to Sidious (and I guess his training was more intensive or at least he had more time to train since Sidious had his political career from 52 BBY on)
- is said to be one of the greatest Jedi that were trained in the last centuries
- was considered to be "council material" while he was training Qui-Gon (if Qui-Gon became a Jedi Knight around the same age Obi-Wan did it - 25 years - Dooku was considered to be on council level before being 35 years old).
These statements are black and white. Obvious. It no where hints that Dooku is more powerful in the Force than his master.
Yes. They don't hint that Dooku is more powerful than his master but they aren't also contradicting that idea because only stating that Sidious is the most powerful when it comes to "using the dark side".
Statement from starwars.com:
"The Jedi Master Yoda confronted Dooku. The two engaged in a titanic struggle of Force powers, neither besting the other."
So you basically have the very same results in the fight Yoda vs Dooku that you had in the fight Yoda vs Sidious. Neither besting the other in terms of force powers and Yoda besting both in terms of lightsaber combat (AotC script says that Yoda bested Dooku; ROTS script says that Yoda disarmed Sidious).
The question is: Can Dooku defeat Sidious fighting him on even ground ? And seeing that Mace Windu (who was once bested by Dooku) was able to do that - why shouldn't Dooku be able to do the same considering that he has more knowledge about the Dark Side compared to Mace, uses a lightsaber style that was designed to fight force users, has shown the ability to deflect Sith Lightning with his bare hands and he will go into that fight with the intention to kill Sidious (where Mace's intention was to capture Sidious alive while fighting him) ?
No. When Palpatine killed his comrades, Mace didn't plan on capturing him. He planned on 'killing' him, as his attempted execution showed.
And I suppose Dooku is capable of killing Sidious. There are ways to defeat more powerful opponents. But will it be a slaughter? Not likely. Sidious can catch people off guard. It's one of his intellectual benefits. He did it to Yoda and Mace. So Dooku better drop the facade of ego. It won't be a five second duel.
That'll be his downfall. His damn ego. Like master, like apprentice.
It's kinda confusing, cause Sidious (you could say) beat Yoda, who beat Count Dooku (you could say), who beat Mace Windu (it says on official website), who beat Sidious, who beat Yoda, who beat Dooku, who beat Windu, who beat....
Anyway, Yoda had also beaten Mace, who beat Sidious who beat Yoda who also beat Dooku.
Well I'll stop my repetition and get onto the point. Dooku was the apprentice to Sidious who seemed to be a better fighter just watching. Also his force control was better, which led to the defeat of Yoda.
well in AOTC yoda wasn't trying his hardest because he had to keep a look out for obi and anakin so while fighting dooku he was also keeping a look out for them.
so after that yoda faught sidious in ROTS who he was on par with
so what im trying to say is dooku couldnt take yoda even when yoda wasnt trying his hardest but then when yoda was trying his hardest against sids.... sids and yoda were on par
my feeling is that sids takes this
Originally posted by Escape81
No. When Palpatine killed his comrades, Mace didn't plan on capturing him. He planned on 'killing' him, as his attempted execution showed.
No. Mace didn't want to kill Sidious before Sidious used lightning on him. After kicking the lightsaber out of Sidious hand Mace told him again that he is arrested. That doesn't make sense if he wanted to kill Sidious at this point already.
And I suppose Dooku is capable of killing Sidious. There are ways to defeat more powerful opponents. But will it be a slaughter? Not likely. Sidious can catch people off guard. It's one of his intellectual benefits. He did it to Yoda and Mace. So Dooku better drop the facade of ego. It won't be a five second duel.
Hmm...a slaughter ? I don't know. If they start duelling with lightsabers Dooku might actually end this quite quick.
And Sidious can catch people off guard but he can also be caught off guard as seen when Yoda first force pushed him across the entire room and later nearly hit him with one of that "pods" in the Senate Chamber.
That'll be his downfall. His damn ego. Like master, like apprentice.
Well...if you think that Sidious didn't use anything against Mace that he could use (I think you have stated that somewhere) then his ego did nearly kill him once. And see his mad laughing in the fight vs Yoda until Yoda nearly hit him with that pod it nearly got him killed for a second time. Dooku is at least able to keep his ego under control when the situation requires it.
Originally posted by Escape81
It does.The interesting thing about movie clips is this. You can't compare a lot of things. For example. You can't compare Sidious and Dooku's lightning. Sidious hasn't used it with one hand, and Dooku has never used it with two. You can't even compare their battles. Dooku was on even ground, Sidious was on uneven ground. Yoda was looking to kill Sidious whereas his objective was originally to capture Dooku. If it had not been, each time Dooku threw an object, Yoda would've chucked it back, instead of tossing it away.
So, thusly, it is rare for a comparison to be made between the two. But, logic plays an understanding role in this. Palpatine has been claimed on the Star Wars site as to be 'the most powerful practitioner of the Sith ways in modern times'. Also, 'he accessed so much Dark Side energy that it corrupted his frail form'. 'The Dark Side was so intense inside him that it was eating away his body, forcing him to instill his soul in clones'. '... A battle between the most powerful practitioners of the light and dark side.' 'Yoda and Sidious were the paragons of either side of the Force'.
These are statements from the official website. While Janus is correct that all of this is not directly from Lucas, if it were false, it wouldn't be posted on the site at all. Otherwise Lucas or his people would have gotten rid of it.
These statements are black and white. Obvious. It no where hints that Dooku is more powerful in the Force than his master. And if memory serves, Sorgo, you yourself agreed in the end with me.
Have you changed your mind?
Have you changed your mind?
No, read Nai's previous posting. He basically stole the words from my mouth, so....
I think I will leave you to him.
I can't believe people actually think that Count Dooku actually stands a chance of defeating Palpatine.
Palpatine is the dark Lord of the Sith and Dooku is his apprentice for a reason. Because Palpatine is stronger in the Force then Dooku can ever hope to be.
Darth Sidious defeated Yoda the same Yoda Dooku fled from.