It's confirmed that Palpatine, as of TPM, is more powerful than Bane. Lightsnake can debrief you on why.
All LS did was quote a few statement from the Darkside Sourcebook, statement that actually don't exist, well at least not in the Dockside sourcebook.
The whole power relationship between Kyp and Luke has been conflicted and retracted on occasions. Kyp is in his forties himself and is unable to achieve anything close to what Luke can.
Well I don't know about that, his TK is arguably stronger.
why do i need to pull anything out of thin air when its plain that sidious held his own against yoda alot better then dooku did, you all say it was a stalemate i dont see it that way, i think dooku knew he wasnt as good as yoda and had to flee. Beside that his force powers are nothing compared to yoda's or sidious, yoda can block dooku's lightning easily as well as his force push, but he could not so easily do that with the emperor. And it was stated on wiki the thing about sidious midiclorian count. Beside that mace windu could not defeat yoda so how is it possible he defeats sidious, it was stated on wiki as well that alot of people think that sidious was indeed in controll through out the entire time, and why not he is a sith lord and very good at sword fighting, even when he was pinned down by mace, the lightning clashing with the saber was causing mace to chocke from all the ozone being created by the combustion, and shooting sidious with his own lightning was not smart either, pain makes certain sith if not all stronger, thus it was just making him stronger thus sidious would have eventually won, if mace had lost to sidious, vader would have probably had sidious arrested thats if he didnt get killed first, but since mace was gonna take the only hope of pademe living away anakin had to strike mace windu down, thats more logical then saying that a guy who stalemated yoda could not beat a guy who yoda did beat. and yes yoda and the emperor did battle closely lightsaber to lightsaber. If you say that sidious is dumb if he would let mace windu almost win just to get anakin to stop him then you ignore the fact that sidious created an entire apposing army to destroy the very republic he saught to take over, yet he knew that the jedi and the superiour fighting abilities of the clones would eventually over come the droid army, then he finished off all opposition by having vader kill the leaders of the sepratists group, and before that he had ankin kill dooku for him, and of course obi wan weather or not sent by dooku or not defeated general grevous.
Originally posted by Lord Tyranus
In a straight up sword fight I still think it's a coin toss. Sidious has a crazy spastic style while Dooku is a zorro inspired fencer. It all boils down to finesse/precission vs. the element of surprise/homicidal rage.
And this thread is a legendary example of your considerable objectivity when it comes to Count Dooku, yes?
If Star Wars is still active and all, I suppose people will have new characters to worship- who knows, maybe it'll be "The era of Kyle Katarn" or sumthin' like that, and we'll be bashed as complete morons for daring to say anyone beats the 'awesome character' of the time. It's probable we'll be bashed for some things, too.
Anyways, I read through this entire thread- it has three things that are actually highly amusing.
-Sidious < Dooku in sabers- Understandable. I personally disagree, and it seems that NG also agrees with me, but I can see why people would say Dooku is Sidious' superior in blades.
-Sidious < Dooku in the force- WTF? This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
-Sidious = Dooku in political manipulations- Possibly the single greatest piece of crap I've ever seen on a Star Wars forum.
'Nuff said. This thread, however, was an interesting read... could anyone please explain to me why the vast majority of peope seemed to favor Dooku in the fight?
Originally posted by Lt. Valerian
Damn, how stupid could people be back in 2005?
It was a different time back then. I was not around so I can't say what sources is any were used. But a lot of those people were ancient sith and revan fanboys. At the time when a lot of those people were around their argument were correct at the time because no one could disprove them. Right now this forum is in the "second age" where our "logic" of Sidious being number one based on canon quotes is the ruling body. Who knows that when others come here if they think that rely too much on quotes about characters and not about what they have shown.
Originally posted by Tangible God
Lol, really? That's 22 pages of Nerd-talk there, you must not have much to do in your leisure time.
An astute observation.
Anyway, in this entire thread, there were two or three people who seemed to say that Sidious could defeat Dooku, while there were legions of people who claimed Dooku can defeat Sidious. Even in force mastery, and basically everyone, even for the pro-Sidious guys ('cept for this Darth Somebody guy) said that Dooku would own Sidious in sabers. Can someone please, possibly who was there at the time, explain to me why so many people believed Dooku >>> Sidious in lightsabers?
I'd imagine it was because of their respective lightsaber forms (Makashi > Ataru, by its very nature, in terms of dueling), how much skill they fought with in the movie, and the fact that Sidious got his ass kicked by Mace Windu, while Dooku was able to match him during the Clone Wars, and had beaten him sometime before. The movies also depict Dooku and Yoda being much closer than Sidious and Yoda were.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
An astute observation.Anyway, in this entire thread, there were two or three people who seemed to say that Sidious could defeat Dooku, while there were legions of people who claimed Dooku can defeat Sidious. Even in force mastery, and basically everyone, even for the pro-Sidious guys ('cept for this Darth Somebody guy) said that Dooku would own Sidious in sabers. Can someone please, possibly who was there at the time, explain to me why so many people believed Dooku >>> Sidious in lightsabers?
Because this thread is a dark representation of how intelligent people can be biased, misguided, and downright stupid.
Edit: Once again, Palpatine's chosen lightsaber form was never confirmed. As far as the movies are concerned, Yoda's priority was to "capture" Count Dooku [his own words] and used every available excuse to not kill the Count -- by saving the lives of Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker [whom Yoda did not fully believe was the Chosen One], an action contrasted by Yoda's own narrative in Revenge of the Sith where he admits that he would sacrifice Obi-Wan (and vice versa) if it would bring the Clone Wars an hour closer to its end. And he also kicked Dooku's ass on Vjun.
Originally posted by Gideon
Because this thread is a dark representation of how intelligent people can be biased, misguided, and downright stupid.Edit: Once again, Palpatine's chosen lightsaber form was never confirmed. As far as the movies are concerned, Yoda's priority was to "capture" Count Dooku [his own words] and used every available excuse to not kill the Count -- by saving the lives of Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker [whom Yoda did not fully believe was the Chosen One], an action contrasted by Yoda's own narrative in Revenge of the Sith where he admits that he would sacrifice Obi-Wan (and vice versa) if it would bring the Clone Wars an hour closer to its end. And he also kicked Dooku's ass on Vjun.
Indeed. Sometimes people outright lied or distorted facts, such as "Sidious was pressed into the defensive against Yoda", when he was clearly on the offensive for the majority of the fight; I mean, I don't think Sidious "owns" Dooku in sabers, but he's probably the superior here. Were the Nick Gillard quotes already established at the time, or did people still excuse them as 'non-canon' 'cuz NG, for some reason that is beyond me, has no relevance on Star Wars?
Sidious is a master of all lightsaber forms; based on observations and depictions, however, he seems to use Juyo combined with Ataru and Makashi. But he probably combines elements of all forms into his completed lightsaber form, which relies primarly on agility, unpredictability, and speed. It's comparing them against Dooku's elegance and percision; while Dooku might stand a chance, Sidious should probably overwhelm him when it comes to lightsaber abilities.
For example, as somebody informed me on another thread, Kit Fisto circa The Cestus Deception was stated to be Obi-Wan's, when he was one year into the clone wars, superior; Obi-Wan put up a fairly good fight against Dooku, which lasted roughly 45 seconds, while Sidious pwned AOTC Obi-Wan's superior while simultaneously fending off Mace Windu, possibly the greatest lightsaber duelist in the order. Definetly the one who has the best chance against Sidious in lightsaber combat (due to Vaapad and Shatterpoint). I'm not gonna start an argument, but this is just one of the facts that lead us to conclude that Sidious is probably superior with a blade.
And yet people, at the time, claimed that Tulak Hord could own Sidious, and that Sidious wasn't even in the top 10 Sith; and that basically everyone could own him in lightsaber combat. It's quite ridiculous, really. But may I ask how such a drastic change happened between that period and this period? A lot of the people who claimed Dooku would own Sidious aren't seen a lot these days.
A note to Nebaris; Makashi does not necessarily > Ataru, as depicted by how Yoda dominated Dooku during their duel; Sidious, however, seems to prefer the usage of Juyo, and is stated to be a master of every weapon and every style; according to NG, Sidious is a 9. Anakin, Mace, and Yoda are the only other nines; Dooku would, most logically, be an 8, according to this. During his duel with Yoda, Sidious maintained the offensive and attacked with greater speed and control than Dooku; I'm not saying he beat Yoda in sabers, but Dooku was dominated by a Yoda who, as Gideon pointed out, was not trying to actually kill him.
Mace didn't 'kick Sidious' ass; Sidious had the offensive for practically the entire duel, and was capable of forcing back Windu on more than one occasion; the only way Windu was capable of matching Sidious was due to Vaapad reflecting Sidious' speed and anger, allowing Mace to gain the same power that he could not produce against, say, Yoda. And it was only due to shatterpoint- by Mace's own admission- that he managed to score a hit on Sidious. In the subsequent lightning struggle, Sidious was defeating and pressing back Mace, who 'had no strength left' (RotS Novelization) and was 'choking on ozone'. Had Sidious not feigned his weakness, Mace would've been destroyed. Meanwhile, Obi-Wan effortlessly blocked Dooku's lightning with one hand, while Mace is a far more potent physical foe than Obi-Wan and has the advantage of Vaapad's 'superconducting loop'.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
A lot of the people who claimed Dooku would own Sidious aren't seen a lot these days.
When Lightsnake came to these forums, it was essentially an e-revolution. He came with cited sources and changed people's opinions and suddenly, these folks were in the vast minority, and so they chose to leave.