Fantastic Four vs X-Men

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Well let's move on then, yeah? I know it isn't the same, why do you keep saying it?

Is Emma mind controlling here? No, Is she mind blasting? Yes.

"People have resisted mind control" has no place here.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
No. I'm not saying you don't agree.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
I'm telling you, what you are saying, is not what I'm saying. Oh yeah, you 'read between the lines'. Try reading the lines.

"Telepathy is always resisted."

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Genuinely troubling that you are so defensive. Open your eyes a bit wider.

You're a real riot you know that?

Originally posted by newjak86
Yes but Hulk is different and would you say Wolverine could do it again.
Now can you say that Sue could not do the same to Emma.

Wolverine beat hulk, with circumstances.
Sue beat Emma with circumstances.

Wolverine has not beaten Hulk without circumstances.
Sue has not beat Emma without circumstances.

Get it?

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
I don't know, it hasn't happened. I'm trying to think through various possibilities and outcomes, while others seem to be hellbent on insisting this fight is more one-sided than a mobius strip.

We're using the most likely means of attacking for each person. Emma has two powers, one of them is more likely to be used than the other. Among the millions of "creative possibilities and outcomes", the most likely one for Emma, being a telepath is....I'll let you complete that sentence.

Stop acting as if I'm suggesting because Emma won't definitely instantly immobilize everyone, that means I think it's just as likely that a comet will fall on the X-Men.

But why would she do anything else when she's a....

Or you can consider the possibilities, for fun. Otherwise, let's just write 'Emma Frost, mindwipe! Next thread!'

Then start a thread where a telepath isn't involved. In fact, I'll be nice and start one for you.

I have trouble seeing Emma definitely doing that before anything else, that's all. To me, it's not the most likely outcome, it's one of many.

And what, then, is the most likely outcome when pitting someone whose only offensive power is mind attacks vs. people who are prone to mind attacks? It would be silly for Emma to do anything else, wouldn't it, being that she's a.....

You're actually criminally dense.

I'm just going to break one of those points down.

Originally posted by Creshosk

You have no room to say this. Since this is something you're guilty of as well.

This was my comment: 'I don't. How do you know she will? It's not factual is it?'

What am I guilty of? What? Thinking it's not fact? I have no room to say that?

I don't even know what you are talking about anymore.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Come on, let's not do that.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Do each of the steps all take the same amount of time?

All of sue's steps would have to be LESS than the speed of thought in order for them all to add up to the speed of thought.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Didn't understand the example?

Wolverine beat hulk, with circumstances.
Sue beat Emma with circumstances.

Wolverine has not beaten Hulk without circumstances.
Sue has not beat Emma without circumstances.

Get it?

Originally posted by demigawd

Then start a thread where a telepath isn't involved. In fact, I'll be nice and start one for you.

Don't bother.

Originally posted by demigawd

And what, then, is the most likely outcome when pitting someone whose only offensive power is mind attacks vs. people who are prone to mind attacks? It would be silly for Emma to do anything else, wouldn't it, being that she's a.....

Yes, that's right. Is it guaranteed that she will wipe them out before they do anything? Guaranteed? Factual?

Am I saying anything else?

Don't reply about odds. Tell me if it's a stonecold fact that Emma will mindwipe them before anything else happens. If the answer is no, we agree. Anything else is at cross purposes.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Why not?

------------------>If<-------------------------------------------------------- they do then Sue's overall attack is slower.

All of sue's steps would have to be LESS than the speed of thought in order for them all to add up to the speed of thought.

See it?

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
You're actually criminally dense.

Maybe you could try debating with me rather than insulting me for a change?

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
I'm just going to break one of those points down.

This was my comment: 'I don't. How do you know she will? It's not factual is it?'

What am I guilty of? What? Thinking it's not fact? I have no room to say that?

'If you take your fingers out of your ears you might hear the penny drop. '

Oh yeah thats the part of the point you ommited quite tactfully. Hmm. Now why did you omit that part? So that you could strawman the rest of it? Yeah, since that's what you did, that's the logical conclusion.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
See it?

Yeah I do, I also gave an example of if they weren't.

"All of sue's steps would have to be LESS than the speed of thought in order for them all to add up to the speed of thought. "

See it?

Originally posted by newjak86
Yeah let's see Sue has knocked out Emma before right she can do it again.

I guess no matter how many times I or Creshosk (god, that name is hard to spell) repeat that Emma wasn't fighting Sue, just talking about it, therefore it's not a predictor of how a real fight between them would go, you're going to make this same point, huh?

Emma's attack could be faster but using your logic Emma's attack would go something more like this
1) Identify target
2) Focus on attack
3) Unleash attack.
Sue's could be
1) Identify target
2) Choose attack
3) Attack
Not all of her attacks could but then again quite a few can as well.

Wrong. That's not how Sue's power works. She's creates invisible objects, which means she has to form them in her mind. That's an extra step. For Emma, focusing and unleashing are the same step. Not so for Sue, because that's not how her power works. It would be if Sue did straight up blasts, but she doesn't. she creates objects with her mind. So yes, there's most certainly an extra step involved, and that extra step would make all the difference in a quick draw scenario.

Originally posted by newjak86
I bet the circumstances around Wolverine beating Hulk wasn't Hulk was talking then Wolverine beqat the day lights out of him.

Very nice.

"Yet who won is the point "

Wolverine won. What the circumstance is doesn't matter. The fact that there was one doesn't even matter. Wolverine won. So Wolverine beats the hulk. Since the point is who won.

Originally posted by newjak86
Emma was talking as a telepath she should have seen the attack coming in the first place since she didn't doesan't speak well of her power.

Originally posted by newjak86
Now what I was trying to get at is you take out the plot devices is Sue not still capable of knocking out Emma.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Ah, now because I disagree I'm dense. Beautiful.

Maybe you could try debating with me rather than insulting me for a change?

'If you take your fingers out of your ears you might hear the penny drop. '

Oh yeah thats the part of the point you ommited quite tactfully. Hmm. Now why did you omit that part? So that you could strawman the rest of it? Yeah, since that's what you did, that's the logical conclusion.

No, it wasn't necessary to post it again. Shall we return to the debate about the characters, or would you like to continue this?

Me: Comment.

You: So you're ssaying this?

Me: no.

You: I read between the lines!

Me: How about just concentrate on what I do say?

You: So because I drew stuff in between the lines, and then you say I drew it in, I'm drawing it in?

It's actually tiresome, stop deviating the discussion into that.

If I say you misunderstood, then post what I said, don't continue to misunderstand then claim I'm denying it actually meant that.

Originally posted by demigawd
I guess no matter how many times I or Creshosk (god, that name is hard to spell) repeat that Emma wasn't fighting Sue, just talking about it, therefore it's not a predictor of how a real fight between them would go, you're going to make this same point, huh?

Wrong. That's not how Sue's power works. She's creates invisible objects, which means she has to form them in her mind. That's an extra step. For Emma, focusing and unleashing are the same step. Not so for Sue, because that's not how her power works. It would be if Sue did straight up blasts, but she doesn't. she creates objects with her mind. So yes, there's most certainly an extra step involved, and that extra step would make all the difference in a quick draw scenario.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Yeah I do, I also gave an example of if they weren't.

"All of sue's steps would have to be LESS than the speed of thought in order for them all to add up to the speed of thought. "

See it?

Yeah, it was speculation based on a theory. What's your point? It's still not fact. Neither is mine.

Can't keep repeating that point if you're going to wilfully obscure it.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Oh, because they weren't the same circumstance, circumstances were not involved in both.

Very nice.

"Yet who won is the point "

Wolverine won. What the circumstance is doesn't matter. The fact that there was one doesn't even matter. Wolverine won. So Wolverine beats the hulk. Since the point is who won.

Unless you know she was distracted by thinking what she was going to say.

We don't know. It seems doubtful, since a plot devuice was used to give Sue the win.

Originally posted by newjak86
No matter what you say Emma still has to focus then the effect or attack happens.

Originally posted by Creshosk
At the same time. At the speed of thought.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Come on, let's not do that.

Do each of the steps all take the same amount of time? For Emma and Sue? I appreciate that you are trying to glean some sort of certainty out of what could happen, but come on.

Even if those two courses of action were the pre-determined battleplans, there's still no guarantee it'll happen like that.

The map is not the territory.

Nobody is saying anything is certain. But what's the point of debating if you're saying that there are infinite possibilities? There are! But we debate because we are trying to divine a most likely outcome. And that means we use all tools and evidence at our disposal to identify this outcome. That includes analyzing their respective speeds of thought, since there's there's an element of quickdraw attacks being debated here. It's not a map, but they're standard thought processes that each person must go through in order to activate their power. Sue has an extra step, which means her attack is going to be a hair trigger slower. Is that, in itself the outcome? Yeah, probably. Is that the only outcome? Of course not. Is that a pretty damned likely one given what we know about the characters and their powers?

You bet.

Originally posted by newjak86
So if Sue blasts Emma again then Emma is immune to those attacks and won't effect her?

The discussion is who is faster. The resistance one was in another chain of responses.

And no, you don't have resistance to Sue's forefeilds.

If Emma attacks rather than talks, and Sue still takes her out. Would be a better indicator than Emma talks and Sue attacks.

But that's not what happened. In order to give Sue the win, Emma didn't even attack. She talked.