Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
not at all, English and some Latin, thats all I can speak
Oh well I speak some Latin and I am taking Spanish in High School and I have taken it before but to be clear.
Deje los juegos comenzar. = Let the games begin.
Con todo las batallas comienzan. = Let the battles begin.
Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
ok thanks, I will start now then, here is my reasoning:Using Marka's, Kreia's and Ulic's force abilities, my army could easily avoid the quicksand and other traps. Again using their force abilities (beast trick, we know for sure that Kreia know it and it is very likely that Ulic knew it, being trained at roughly the same time as Kreia and Marka ruled the ancient sith and researched the jedi and their powers, he would also know that ability) they could get the beasts in the jungle to not attack them.
When I am near the fort, yet still hidden by the jungle, I would split my army into three, Kreia leading 800 of Ulics Krath Elite troopers around to the back. Ulic leading the remaining 200 Krath Elite's and Kreia's 300 sith apprentices to the left side of the path up to the fort (assuming their is only one path up, like this '/' Ulic takes the left hand side of it), then Marka and all 750 of his Elite sith soldiers take the right hand side of the path.
At this point I get Kreia to do her 3 lightsaber ability, using three lightsabers, each with the ability of a jedi and with no large target to shoot at (and we all know how accurate stormtroopers are), she could easily destroy the mounted cannons surrounding the fort and likely 50 troopers. While this is going on, I get the beasts to attack, further distracting the troopers. When all the lightsabers are destroyed, I get the beasts to fall back, likely 60% destroyed, however some troopers would follow the beasts, however, they would have to come out the only enterance (I am assuming their is one enterance, if there is more than one, then it makes it easier for me, being that I have more points to attack so really this is making it harder on myself). When the come out of the enterance, I get Ulic's 800 Krath Eilte to shoot them down then charge up the ramp, Ulic and the sith apprentices in the lead. Since Ulic would be able to deflect all blaster bolts coming at him (Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were able to destroy 50+ droids in TPM at the hanger without braking a sweat, so it is very likely that Obi-Wan could destroy 50 droids on his own, since he is still only a padawan and in a time of peace, Ulic, who is fully trained and in a time of war, would be able to deflect more, espically since the troops are suprised), him and his troops could reach the gates more unharmed. Also, each of the sith apprentices would be as strong as either Anakin in AotC or Obi-Wan in TPM, each of them could destroy 50+ droids on their own, espically considering that they were in constant combat. A simple force push and Ulic is in the fort, smashing down the gates. Once in the fort, Ulic takes 100 sith apprentices with him to destroy all the troopers hiding. The remaining 100 sith and 200 Krath Elite stay at the gate to kill any that try to flee, the sith deflecting all blaster bolts. In the meantime, Marka and his army and Kreia and her army have surrounded the fort, trapping them inside and preventing any from fleeing.
It would be done quickly, and very likely without any casulities on my part
First off, I'd like clarification on Force users successfully avoiding natural obstacles. This is pretty vague here.
Second, Kreia's ability to wield lightsabers requires concentration. She cannot move. Keep that in mind.
Third, what are the defenders doing while th Force users are batting away every shot and the beasts (assuming even what the beasts are, how they react, and if they can be dominated) are assaulting the fort, taking up casualties? How can these creatures kill troops stationed here? How exactly will the troops overcome the fortification?
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Alright. I'm warning you guys I'm no military expert, so sorry if I do a crappy job, I'll try to make this reasonable.For my attack force, I'll send Yoda and 1500 Clones. Seeing as they start only 200 meters from snipers, they will begin moving up the hill as soon as possible if they have been able to survey the planet and defenses from orbit, if the rules don't give them that bonus, then they spend maybe a minute or so recieving orders from Yoda.
First mistake; the clones start 200 meters from the base of the hill. The snipers won't be accessible until your troops reach fifty meters up the hill. meaning that they have to charge through 200 meters of relatively open area, then run 50 meters up a hill to reach the snipers. There will be almost minimal cover for them here. Not to mention the full-auto blasts of the E-Web turret, as well as continuous blasts from the snipers.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
My reason for Yoda being able to discover the best way to attack their fortress so quickly is because it has been routinely demonstrated that Jedi are able to learn everything about a situation they are focusing on. Obi-wan was able to do this in ep3 during the fighter battle as was Mace I believe during his fight with Sidious. SInce this has happened twice in a relativly near period of time, I think it is safe to believe that it is possible.
Not sure I completely agree there. Mace uses his Shatterpoint ability, so hes out of the question. And unless I'm mistaken, it was Anakin who saved Obi-Wan in the Battle of Coruscant, and that was through flying ability and quick-thinking. Yoda will most likely get to the wall without a hit, but I cannot say the same for the clones.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Seeing as the clones are exactly the same; except for very minor genetic imperfections caused by the cloning process; it is unlikly that the Commenor Clones will be unit for unit more capable, not counting their terrain advantages.I have heard that Yoda is able to use battle meditation. If he is capable of doing so, then he will obviously be a huge advantage to his forces.
First one, alright, no arguments.
Second one, I don't know. Sidious is suspected of possessing the ability as shown in ROTJ, but this is speculation. I've never heard of Yoda possessing the ability. . . So for now, he won't. And think about it this way; how are 1500 troops going to storm such a heavily fortified fortrss while their leader is sitting motionless in the thick of battle?
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Depending on how deep the wooden spines are positioned into the hill, Yoda may be able to simply rip enough of them up to allow the clones to move up the hill unmolested. If not, then he could consievably use force speed and remove the spines with his lightsaber.
Well, they are just there to stall the troopers, or distract them. They can easily be blasted to splinters by the guns of the clones, or ripped from the ground by Yoda's Force abilities. Think along the lines of the latter suggestion. You may find something useful there.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I am unsure as to how fast the clones snipers can fire their guns. The physical limitation of the gun would most likly not allow it to fire more than once per second, even if the clones are able to take aim at my troops that fast because even guns made much later had problems with the barrel being thrown out of alingment by extended use of fully automatic.
For the sake of argument, we'll say the technological limitations will be set at forty five shots per minute. However, to score an instant kill, the snipers will have to take a moment or two for proper aim. and we'll say that a reload is necessary every twenty rounds.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Yoda can probably have enough of the spines gone within a minute for at least a dozen clones to move through the path at a time. The stone wall is two meters high. It will be easy for Yoda being as small as he is to hide on the downward facing side of the hill as he cuts a hold in the wall. During this time, the clones will be either trying to take cover behind the remain spines(ones not used by Yoda to cut the part, if the spines are wide enough to offer any cover) and in the shadow of the wall.
As said, the spines will take under a minute to be removed. They are simply there to draw attention. And this the best statement from you yet in this particular attack. Well done.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
The clones for the most part will be safe behind the two meter high wall. During this time, Yoda will be cutting through it along with clones using their blasters to slowly destroy it or if I have any terchnician set up mines to blow it up.
Once the clones retreat, perhaps. But you're never going to be able to hide 1500 clones behind a single wall. Your troops nearest to it will need to take out the wall, while those farther back will likely have no choice but to try and provide cover here.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Not all of the army is going to be able to hide in the shadow of the wall. The ones that can't hide will use boost from their squadron members to get over the wall and continue up to the fortress.
Ah, that clarifies the last statement. However, the troops in the back will likely be required to attempt to destroy the E-Web, or at least draw its attention. otherwise, your 'boosted' troops will be mowed down like targets at a shooting range.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Not sure how thick the wall is, so I'm unsure how long it will take to breach. I doubt that it would take very long as their could be hundreds of clones leterally melting it will rapid fire, but then they would have to give up their cover during this time.
As said, the wall will be a hindrance, as the time taken for its destruction will be valuable, and cost your troops many lives. Yoda himself could leap over, but I wouldn't be surprised if he were hit by one of hundreds of firing clones.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I doubt the wall would take more than two or three minutes to damage to the point where the clones can simply move over it, supporting their brethren who had already moved passed the wall(remember, they were given boost by comrades).The E-web Yoda could use force speed and run up to the E-web while under a force cloak(invisible), or destroy it with a force push or some other technique.
On your second statement; I doubt it. Yoda has never shown in the ability to turn invisible, and I doubt even he could evade E-Web blaster shots AND blasts from hundreds of clones simultaneously. However, if he can take a moment to Force push the turret, he may be able to buy his troops some time.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I don't know anything about the fortress itself, so if you could give me some information on that, it would be appreciated.
Well, it is a simple structure, with an entrance into a cliff wall four meters wide and three tall. There are eight balconies with a circumference of twenty meters each. A large base platform extending thirty meters out from the entrance, at the front of which is the E-Web turret.
Evaluation: Well, Glentract, given your current strategy, you would lose a vast number of troops to the E-Web alone; a simple charge won't cut it here. But you might succeed. I'll let Illustrious and Janus help with the final decision.
well Janus to answer your questions:
First, since the force binds everything together, the three sith would be able to sense the quicksands (the area where animals avoid, has dead things in it etc.) and steer their armies around it. It would work the same way with swamps, if they had to cross one, the sith could levitate themselves (Luke does it in "the Courtship of Princess Leia," just a few years after RotJ) and they could cut down a large tree that the army could walk across on. Also, Kriea's 200 sith apprentices, probably much like Obi-Wan in TPM, could levitate themselves across. Or even, with the powers of the three sith that I brought, they could just levitate people across (Luke does it to R2 in RotJ, also if an old crippled Yoda can lift an X-Wing, Kriea, Ulic and Marka could sure as hell lift at least 50 people (each) at a time over, more likely it would be 100 or more over. And Kriea's sith apprentices could combine and lift people together as well (Jaina alone can lift on ore lifter at the start of the Vong invasion, forget which book but I just read it), so if Jaina can lift an ore lifter, 200 sith can definetly lift some people across. So the natural barriers are not really barriers.
Second, yes I do know that Kriea cannot move while doing her little technique, that is why I have two armies guarding the exit and 800 Krath guarding her
As for the attack, the beasts are more of a diversion, drawing the attention of the stormtroopers, when Ulic and the sith and some of his Krath are attacking, the other people will make a circle around the fort to prevent others from leaving. As for what the defenders are doing, why they are, drunk didn't you know, lol jokin. But they would be trying to attack, but with Ulic charging up with 200 sith apprentices (think Obi-Wan or Anakin Skywalker in AotC) right behind him, and 200 Krath Elite right behind them, there is not a whole lot that the defenders can do. And like I said, a simple force push and the gates are down, Ulic is in and the defenders are dead
A very fair and insightful evaluation, Faunus. I agree with you, except on the idea of clones being exactly the same. This is disproven time and again in the series and novels, since Clone Troopers (Like any sentient) are shaped primarily from their environment, training, and experience. The clone troopers in this locale will no doubt be familiar with the terrain and have taken steps to learn how to defend it properly. In this case, a charge will not overwhelm the defenders. Yoda, in particular, has not been known to be a frontline general (ROTS) and if he does assume the role this time, he will be in peril from the guns of the defenders. Considering that Clone Troopers take moderate casualties even in the best of circumstances (Such as training, even. See The Cestus Deception), this will be a virtual slaughterfest. I can't see the charge taking the hill.
Originally posted by Deus Ex
First off, I'd like clarification on Force users successfully avoiding natural obstacles. This is pretty vague here.Second, Kreia's ability to wield lightsabers requires concentration. She cannot move. Keep that in mind.
Third, what are the defenders doing while th Force users are batting away every shot and the beasts (assuming even what the beasts are, how they react, and if they can be dominated) are assaulting the fort, taking up casualties? How can these creatures kill troops stationed here? How exactly will the troops overcome the fortification?
I must agree. I don't think that Traya alone would be capable of tearing apart mounted cannons with the power of a turbolaser before she is either blown apart by the cannon itself, or shot to rags by surrounding troopers.
Like I said, tactics and large group battles aren't my area of expertise.
One your points Janus, I believe it is safe to assume that Yoda is capable of force speed because we have seen almost every other Jedi use it before. Even Padawans are able to use it(Obi-wan in TMP when they are running away from the destroyer droids).
It is logical that Yoda knows how to use force cloak as Luke was able to use it on a large scale only a few years after ROTJ(Thrawn trilogy) and it is doubtful Obi-wan would have had time to teach him such things, unless he continued to teach Luke after ROTJ, which we have seem little, if any proof of. Also Obi-wan demonstrated the ability to use force cloak in ROTS in Utapu. I don't have any solid evidence of an ability on Yoda's part to do this, rather many points that show it logically.
Wikipedia, although a generally unreliable source, says he can use battle meditation. The force power also isn't a dead force power. Many people alive during Yoda's time were able to use battle meditation. This includes Joruus C'Baoth, Sidious, Nial Declann(if nationmaster can be considered canonical), and Yarael Poof. Anakin Skywalker was able to use a weaker version of battle meditation at a time when he was far weaker than Yoda. It's about as reliable as 99% of what can be said on Revan, Ragnos, or the Exile.
One the E-web note, Yoda has demonstrated the ability to block blaster bolt en masse(see his assault on the Jedi Temple in ep3). His form won't much of a problem for deflecting blaster bolts because Qui-gon, a user of the same form, was able to block every shot fired at him in ep1. Yoda is generally considered superior or at in the same tier as Mace in lightsaber combat. Mace was able to block shots from an army of droids in clone wars. That was far more than can be expected to come from an E-web.
If I am allowed to, I would like to bring in Joruus C'Baoth with five hundred Storm Troopers. He does for sure have battle meditation, as can be seen in the Thrawn trilogy as he uses it on the Imperial fleet. If not, then completely disregard this last paragraph.
Also, if allowed to, I would like to have Yoda use one of the force spines as a weapon with which to destroy the E-web. Ballisticakinetics at their finest. If not, disreguard this.
The cannons are on four corners of the bastion, and the bastion is relatively large, as it has to house 500 stormtroopers (logical deduction, I didn't change any of the circumstances).
So for Kreia to manage to move her sabers to take out all the cannons, she needs to either move around, or have almost unheard of concentration: can she do it on the field of battle?
Originally posted by Deus Ex
A very fair and insightful evaluation, Faunus. I agree with you, except on the idea of clones being exactly the same. This is disproven time and again in the series and novels, since Clone Troopers (Like any sentient) are shaped primarily from their environment, training, and experience. The clone troopers in this locale will no doubt be familiar with the terrain and have taken steps to learn how to defend it properly. In this case, a charge will not overwhelm the defenders. Yoda, in particular, has not been known to be a frontline general (ROTS) and if he does assume the role this time, he will be in peril from the guns of the defenders. Considering that Clone Troopers take moderate casualties even in the best of circumstances (Such as training, even. See The Cestus Deception), this will be a virtual slaughterfest. I can't see the charge taking the hill.
True. While genetic variations are all but non-existent, variations and fighting abilities and tactics will vary tremendously depending on the location, type, and nature of a clone's training.
Hm. Janus. Does he get another shot at this? Or does he lose his assault? because I personally think that it needs some work, but could be achieved with some modifications.