Darth Vader versus Darth Tyranus

Originally posted by zephiel7
I agree with you.

The fact that Vader's saber hilt is an electrical conductor (made of electrum I think?) doesn't really help him. He won't be able to block Dooku's lightning with his saber. The lightning is just going to travel through the lightsaber into Vader's cybernetic system.

right, but you dont block it with the hilt, other wise OB1, Mace, and Yoda would have been electrocuted that way. The blade is pure energy and would consume the lightning...which it did...it wasnt disappearing into thin air. Palps continuously shot it at them, and it was absorbed by the blade. Saying that it would travel to the hilt is nothing but speculation. Feasible, yes... probable, no.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
right, but you dont block it with the hilt, other wise OB1, Mace, and Yoda would have been electrocuted that way.

But Yoda and Mace are not *especially* susceptible to lightning. They can defend against the attack. Yoda was shown deflecting the attack back at Sidious. Mace was also presumed to have learned techniques of defending against darkside attacks.
Vader on the other hand has *no* way to defend against lightning. It can travel from the hilt into his cybernetic core, and because he is "more machine then man," he would get ****ed over at that point.

you missed the point that there is *no* reason it would travel to the hilt by way of the saber blade. And how well trained could OB1 be as just a knight in AOTC, to defend against darkside attacks? You put your saber in the way and it blocks it. Like i said, speculation.

you missed the point that there is *no* reason it would travel to the hilt by way of the saber blade.

I never said it would travel to the hilt by way of the saber hilt. Are you assuming that the blade somehow conducts and dissipates all the lightning just like that? I ask, how does this make sense? A lightsaber blade is just a bunch of high intensity photons, how on earth does it conduct and dissipate lightning? The lightning should go to the blade and the hilt, given the fact that regular force lightning is enough to cover the span of both a lightsaber blade and hilt.

I assume what happens when they actually block lightning is that some of it hits the blade and some of it travels to the hilt, and then due to the Jedi/Sith's abilities to defend against lightning, he/she can use the force to dissipate the lightning.

And how well trained could OB1 be as just a knight in AOTC, to defend against darkside attacks?

Who knows... Vader despite being a powerful Sith Lord still has the disadvantage of being unable to produce or defend lightning. Obi Wan is organic hence he can defend against the attack.

vader can block it with his lightsaber as obi wan did to count dooku,
the laser will just absorb it, there is no proof to show that the electricity will travel from the laser to the hilt to his life support.

the laser simply absorbs and how is dooku going to use lightning when vader is striking him? doing lightning at a close range is risky

and even if small amounts of electricity travel through the hilt, wouldnt it be insulated by his gloves? its only "small" amounts considering that the laser absorbs most of the electric

Originally posted by ESB Vader
the laser simply absorbs and how is dooku going to use lightning when vader is striking him? doing lightning at a close range is risky

Likewise how is Vader going to block the lightning when Dooku is striking him. Dooku has one hand open when he duels meaning he can use force attacks and sword attacks at the same time. Basically this means that Vader is screwed.

number 1 you cant use the force to strike an opponent when you are blocking, parrying or hitting back, its too risky and dangerous, something dooku would never do, even in a saber lock, dooku wouldnt do lightning at a point blank range, it could possibly kill dooku or if not damage him as well.

if you want dooku to win, then he would in the middle of the battle back away then strike with lightning, again its not like vader cant block with his lightsaber and counter with a force crush or choke.

and likewise how is dooku going to use lightning when he strikes vader? he cant, its too dangerous, too risky, not even the emperor clone would do that, that would for a split second, let your guard down and allow the oponent to counter

Yes, but it takes a reasonably large amount of lightning to critically damage an organic being. Vader is robotic and only a small amount of lightning will do the trick, especially since Dooku is a very powerful force user. Also Dooku wouldnt be letting his guard down to use the force he only fights with one hand

Originally posted by zephiel7
I never said it would travel to the hilt by way of the saber hilt. Are you assuming that the blade somehow conducts and dissipates all the lightning just like that? I ask, how does this make sense? A lightsaber blade is just a bunch of high intensity photons, how on earth does it conduct and dissipate lightning? The lightning should go to the blade and the hilt, given the fact that regular force lightning is enough to cover the span of both a lightsaber blade and hilt.

I assume what happens when they actually block lightning is that some of it hits the blade and some of it travels to the hilt, and then due to the Jedi/Sith's abilities to defend against lightning, he/she can use the force to dissipate the lightning.

Who knows... Vader despite being a powerful Sith Lord still has the disadvantage of being unable to produce or defend lightning. Obi Wan is organic hence he can defend against the attack.

Well whats lightning? HIgh intensity photons/electrons...there is no scientific way or even involving laws of physics, that lightning could or would travel down the blade of a pure energy weapon, to the hilt. If that were so, the energy from the blade itself would travel thru the metal hilt and injure the user. There has to be something that separates the blade and hilt anyway, so still no way for the lightning to get to the hilt, and the user. And just because OB1 isn't mechanical doesnt mean he's impervious to electricity. Go stick a knife in an outlet and tell me that it didnt affect you as much than if you had mechanical prosthetics. You remember what happened to luke when he got shocked? He started smoking from getting burnt. Thats what happens when electricity comes in contact with human flesh. And yes, if Vader has rubber type gloves, that would reduce the electricity.

Rampant, I know you love Dooku and will say anything for him not to lose, but ya know...he's dead...he lost at least ONCE. Use logic. Never have you seen someone use force lightning and strike at the same time. Who's to say Vader doesnt choke him and kill him or choke him and cut him down? And dont say Dooku could block it, cause thats corny and never been seen either.

This is so obvious, the winner is easily Darth Vader.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Yes, but it takes a reasonably large amount of lightning to critically damage an organic being. Vader is robotic and only a small amount of lightning will do the trick, especially since Dooku is a very powerful force user. Also Dooku wouldnt be letting his guard down to use the force he only fights with one hand

o and vader cant simply do the same? block his lightning with his saber and use a devastating force crush on dooku?

i tell you ALOTof people in this world underestimate vader because number1) they think hes weak
number2) because the OT had heavy props and so the fightning was slow so there fore luke vader and obi wan were slow fighters.

a flashback in crimson empire of vader can rip up peoples arguements of saying he is slow and not agile

Originally posted by ESB Vader
[B]o and vader cant simply do the same? block his lightning with his saber and use a devastating force crush on dooku?

Because Dooku would fire the lightning and attack with his saber almost simultaneously. So if Vader blocked the lightning he would be cut to shreds, if he blocked the saber he would be electrocuted. Also yes Vader does have the use of force choke, but Dooku can still fight while being choked for a small amount of time, Vader will be destroyed almost instantly if he gets hit with the lightning.

i tell you ALOTof people in this world underestimate vader because number1) they think hes weak
number2) because the OT had heavy props and so the fightning was slow so there fore luke vader and obi wan were slow fighters.

I agree. But likewise alot of people underestimate Dooku because of his age and because of his embarrasing defeat to Skywalker in ROTS. He is easily one of the best swordsman ever being let down with the weak amount of kinetic energy his form produces. He can spar very effectively against Yoda who is considered the 'elite' of his era.

a flashback in crimson empire of vader can rip up peoples arguements of saying he is slow and not agile

I personally am not saying he is slow and agile, but he is not as fast as Dooku. We do have to take into consideration that 4 of his limbs are mechanical. whether you like it or not his speed will be greatly hindered. Also in ROTS Dooku managed to keep up with both Anakin and Kenobi simultaneously and in AOTC he was able tp keep up with Yoda. All these competitors are faster than OT Vader.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Because Dooku would fire the lightning and attack with his saber almost simultaneously. So if Vader blocked the lightning he would be cut to shreds, if he blocked the saber he would be electrocuted. Also yes Vader does have the use of force choke, but Dooku can still fight while being choked for a small amount of time, Vader will be destroyed almost instantly if he gets hit with the lightning.

number1) no one, not even DE palpatine or even exar kun could perfrom a force attack while at the very same moment strike with the lightsaber, you cant prove that count dooku could do that,

number2) if vader blocked the lightning, it would be at a distance, how the hell would dooku get to him with his lightsaber at a distance?

number3) and how the hell would vader get shocked if his lazer beam absorbs the attack? is it going to be "convected" to the hilt? can you prove that? then why didnt mara jade or obi wan got electricuted? because even if the electric did manage to travel, they would either use the force to shield their hands or it simply doesnt effect them, and vader would have an advantage, why? because it is only in small amounts and WILLbe insulated by his gloves

Originally posted by Rampant ox
I personally am not saying he is slow and agile, but he is not as fast as Dooku. We do have to take into consideration that 4 of his limbs are mechanical. whether you like it or not his speed will be greatly hindered. Also in ROTS Dooku managed to keep up with both Anakin and Kenobi simultaneously and in AOTC he was able tp keep up with Yoda. All these competitors are faster than OT Vader. [/B]

faster than vader? yes i can agree to that but does speed mean you will win? look at yoda, far faster than dooku can ever be and yet dooku could keep up to him, vader could do the same, how? because he is patient, intelligent, as dooku is

last but not least makashi is useless against a master of the shien form,
how would makashi defend against a brutal stroke of the shien form? already in ROTS anakin had blown back dooku with a blow of the shien form and look at vaders physical strength , nearly twice as strong as anakins and proof he is strong? when the RODV novel stated he had enough strength to crush his hilt with ease

dooku could only strike vader if vader force jumps, or at a distance away which he can block with his lightsaber and execute a force crush

Vader has more control over his emotions and shit than dooku. He's cool, calm, collected, and while Dooku appears to be the same, you could see that he wasnt as comfortable in his role, as Vader was. Hence I think his Patience will pay off and he'd be able to kill Dooku quickly. He did as Anakin and I think everyone would say that Vader would take out his younger self.

Vader already ****ed up Dooku. Why even debate it?

Originally posted by ESB Vader
number1) no one, not even DE palpatine or even exar kun could perfrom a force attack while at the very same moment strike with the lightsaber, you cant prove that count dooku could do that,

Can you prove he couldnt, because it doesnt seem that hard to do. Dooku would lift one hand and fire lightning and with the other hand strike with his blade. Dooku fights with one hand so it would not be too difficult to do.

number2) if vader blocked the lightning, it would be at a distance, how the hell would dooku get to him with his lightsaber at a distance?

Why does it have to be at a distance. When Sids did it to Yoda in ROTS they were a metre apart max. That is easily enough distance to strike with a blade.

number3) and how the hell would vader get shocked if his lazer beam absorbs the attack? is it going to be "convected" to the hilt? can you prove that? then why didnt mara jade or obi wan got electricuted? because even if the electric did manage to travel, they would either use the force to shield their hands or it simply doesnt effect them, and vader would have an advantage, why? because it is only in small amounts and WILLbe insulated by his gloves

You completely missed the point. Vader would be forced to eithe block Dooku's sword or block the lightning. He couldnt do both simultaneously. Meaning that one or the other will kill him.

last but not least makashi is useless against a master of the shien form,

Hardly useless. Less effective might be a better way of putting it.

how would makashi defend against a brutal stroke of the shien form?

Dooku would parry it. Instead of meeting the stroke head on he will absorb the kinetic energy into the parry, thus lessening the strength of the attack. It is foolish to meet Shien head on and even I admit that Dooku was an idiot ot do it in ROTS. But that doesnt mean he will do it again.

already in ROTS anakin had blown back dooku with a blow of the shien form and look at vaders physical strength , nearly twice as strong as anakins

Where did you get this statistic?

and proof he is strong? when the RODV novel stated he had enough strength to crush his hilt with ease

Again Dooku can just parry the attack. He will therefore not have to meet the kinetic energy head on thus not getting tired as quickly.

dooku could only strike vader if vader force jumps, or at a distance away which he can block with his lightsaber and execute a force crush

Simple answer being no.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Vader has more control over his emotions and shit than dooku. He's cool, calm, collected, and while Dooku appears to be the same, you could see that he wasnt as comfortable in his role, as Vader was.

Actually I didnt notice that. Or is this just an opinion and thus holds no weight whatsoever. Anyway how the f*ck could you tell if Vader was calm or not, he was wearing a mask. Last time I checked this stopped people from seeing his facial expressions. Also could you please provide an example of a time where "you could see that he wasnt as comfortable in his role". Thankyou.

Hence I think his Patience will pay off and he'd be able to kill Dooku quickly.

Wtf. So because he has patience he will be able to win quickly. Patience means you can withstand long situations with ease. So what you said makes little sense.

He did as Anakin and I think everyone would say that Vader would take out his younger self.

Could you plese provide an example of "everyone". Because I disagree so there goes your theory out the window.

Originally posted by Blue_Hefner
Vader already ****ed up Dooku. Why even debate it?

Poor logic. Tyrannus "****ed up" Anakin in AOTC but it didnt turn out like that in ROTS. Vader "****ed up" Luke in ESB but it didnt turn out like that in ROTJ.

'You completely missed the point. Vader would be forced to eithe block Dooku's sword or block the lightning. He couldnt do both simultaneously. Meaning that one or the other will kill him.'

It's not that simple. By this logic, Serra Keto who uses two sabers would be able to defeat Mace because 'He couldnt [block] both simultaneously'. Doesn't work that way.

Fair enough. So are you telling me that Vader would be able to both block the Counts lightning and blade at the same time? I personally dont see this happening and I think it is illogical to assume he could. Apparently you have to use the force to dtraw the lightning into the blade, but you also have to sue the force to duel. They are two different things and it would be close to impossible to do both simultaneously.

ok, so you mean to tell me, that if youre on the phone with someone you cant tell if theyre mad, calm, anxious, or any other emotion? Whats the point of criminologists studying speech stress patterns if you HAVE to look at someones face to see theyre mood?? Exactly, thank YOU.

And yes, while patience is something that CAN take awhile, but again, its like if youre arguing with someone and theyre mad and you remain calm, they get more mad and lose the edge. If Vader stays calm and Dooku gets more and more mad, then he will make a mistake quicker and Vader will capitalize.

And ok, maybe uncomfortable was the wrong termanology, but just one example of when Dooku looked...less at ease was when he was fighting Anakin and he was saying how he had fear and anger and didnt use them, like the fact that Anakin didnt use them, it pissed him off, hence losing his cool.

And yes, in another thread, virtually eveyone agreed that mech Vader would stomp a mudhole in Anakins ass. you can look it up if you want, so realy, my theory wasnt thrown out the window, because if you read what i typed, i put, "And I THINK..." so if you want to be THAT thecnical and argumenative, then take my post a literally as you can.

I know you'd jump Dooku's lap if you had the opportunity, but face facts, Vader owns...

For the record, I'd say Dooku pwns him.