Darth Vader versus Darth Tyranus

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
Actually it is a stronger arguement than you think, Vader is Anakin with 20+ Years more training, if Dooku lost to the weak, arrogant one, he has no chance against this one

No because now they have different attributes. PT Anakin was extremely fast and was near unstoppable when he was pissed. OT Vader was much slower yet had more force control and physical strenth.

Did I actually say he knew Makashi? No, I did not. Vader uses Djem-So to great effect with the Power of 2 hands, so I called it a Strong version of Makashi.

Fair enough

How do you know Vader can't block Lightning with his saber, or even more block it the same way he blocked Han's blaster?

Holy sh*t, are you saying now that vader will be able to block the lightning with his hands. News flash - he is robotic. He will be short circuited just like in ROTJ.

if you forget, Vader was getting electricuted while holding the Emperor whose hands were placed about 2 inches from his back.

And in case you forget he was killed because of it. Your point collapses.

His Force Crushes/Grips are more powerful than Dooku's, as it is said again in Shadows of the Empire, he can make a person's Lung explode.

And Dooku's force lightning is more powerful than Vaders. Sh*t, Vader doesnt even know force lightning. Also force lightning is more effective against Vader than force choke is against Dooku.

Vader moves faster than we often see, look at Quinlan's post.

And Dooku doesnt move fast? He kept up with the likes of Yoda. Something I sure as hell dont see OT vader doing.

Yes, Vader is more than likely better than Sidious with a Blade, since Anakin was only slightly less if not equal with him back in ROTS.

Proof? Or is this more opinionated bullsh*t?

Yes, he got beaten by Luke, yet killed Hundreds of Jedi more skilled than him, that's just a problem with Continuity, just go on the he has 'Chosen One Blood, he can learn things Super Quick' theory.

The fact remains if Vader was defeated by a boy with minimal training in either the force or with a blade, and was not trying to kill Vader how on earth will Vader beat an 80 year old master who is out for blood?

How ironic, that the best Sith are beaten by a Rash, arrogant, angry Padawan? (Vader by Luke, Maul by Obi-Wan, Dooku by Anakin) They can only kill super skilled ones I guess 😛

Lol,I agree with that. Maybe these two are just too good for each other and it will end in a stalemate.

Are you saying that Technology is better now than it was a Long Time Ago? 😱

Lol. No but you get my point.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Wtf are you talking about. How is any of this relevant to the duel?

For the last time I will tell you why he couldnt. Vader lifts his saber and blocks the force lightning coming towards him. At the same time Dooku attacks with his blade. What does Vader have left to block with? Nothing. Hence he will be killed. It is exactly the same if vader blocked Dooku's blade. he would have nothing left to block the lightning.

Wtf. Laser bolts and force lightning are two completely different things.

Wtf. Are you saying Vader is going to crush Dooku's lightning in his hands? Vader will be instsantly short circuited and will lose.

Irrelevant. Dooku is not going to be firing AT-AT shots at him.

yes! and vader used the force to block han solos bolts and using the force he can blck dookus lightning, and if vader didnt use the force to block the bolts his hand would also have been fried, point moot so therefore he can use it to shield himself from dookus lightning and use his 1 handed variation of shien.

yes bolts and lightning are 2 different things, its like a piece of paper, a pen can write on it and so can a pencil get it?
and vaders force "shield" or "block" is like that piece of paper or take a ballistic shield, it can block bullets as well as rotten tomatoes

and you want to see vader fast? read crimson empire, he stuck his double vibrosword on the ground and did that kick like neo did in matrix reloaded, to do that you would have to be fast,

alot of people especially anime fans thing vader is slow due to the OT, had it been made today the fighting would have been 10x better

Originally posted by ESB Vader
[B]yes! and vader used the force to block han solos bolts and using the force he can blck dookus lightning, and if vader didnt use the force to block the bolts his hand would also have been fried, point moot so therefore he can use it to shield himself from dookus lightning and use his 1 handed variation of shien.

Actually, I doubt that it was theforce that stopped Hans blaster fire. I think it was more the fact that it was hitting his robotic hand, thus not doing any damage. If lightning on the other hand (excuse the pun) came anywhere close to Vader he would short circuit. As simple as that.

yes bolts and lightning are 2 different things, its like a piece of paper, a pen can write on it and so can a pencil get it?
and vaders force "shield" or "block" is like that piece of paper or take a ballistic shield, it can block bullets as well as rotten tomatoes

Wtf. Vader cant block lightning unless its with his saber - it is one of the curses of being a cyborg. If he does block it with his saber he gats sliced by Dooku's blade.

and you want to see vader fast? read crimson empire, he stuck his double vibrosword on the ground and did that kick like neo did in matrix reloaded, to do that you would have to be fast,

Lol, I do agree with you that Vader is fast, alot faster than people give him credit for. But still not as fast as Tyrannus.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Actually, I doubt that it was theforce that stopped Hans blaster fire. I think it was more the fact that it was hitting his robotic hand, thus not doing any damage. If lightning on the other hand (excuse the pun) came anywhere close to Vader he would short circuit. As simple as that.

Wtf. Vader cant block lightning unless its with his saber - it is one of the curses of being a cyborg. If he does block it with his saber he gats sliced by Dooku's blade.

Lol, I do agree with you that Vader is fast, alot faster than people give him credit for. But still not as fast as Tyrannus.

number1 prove that it was vaders robot hand which stopped the blast, in jedi council acts of war yoda did the same thing to block a yinchoris blast, the same ability vader and luke demonstrated and yoda used that to block lightning.

not as fast as tyranus as in how?

and even if vader cant use the force to block the electricity, and he blocks it with his lightsaber , he still could force push dooku and remember when vader fought tark? he used a force push on tark and tark slams into the ceiling causing a dent, that proves vaders push over powers dookus push

and already anakin overpowered count dooku, said so in the ROTS novel and vader clearly is more powerful than anakin

If this is mechanical Vader, then Tyranus will find a way to get around him. It also depends on what era Vader. In that Rise of the Dark Lord book Roan Shryne, who is definately not as powerful as Dooku/Tyranus, found a way to overcome Vader in lightsaber combat, but was unable to use it effectively when Vader started to throw planks at him. If this is the Dune Sea, then Vader's pushes will be kind of worthless, but his crushes will still prove formidable. Tyranus has the advantage of speed and Sith Lightning. Vader has the advantage of physical strength and the power of the Force. However, if Tyranus can find a way to come around Vader's defenses then he will win, especially if he uses Sith Lightning. Vader will put up a tough fight though.

ok...you say you dont see Vader keeping up with Yoda, which must mean you thnk Yoda would beat hm, correct? Then why hide? Why would Yoda do his best to hide from vader? Fear. Fear of losing his life. So any argument (either FOR or AGAINST Vader) including Yoda, is irrelevant. You say that Dooku can use twin attacks, but Vader could use twin defenses. Block lightning with his saber, and push dooku back which would cause the lightning to stop. Then they would resume battle. This will go on forever. Im tempted to offer a stalemate on Vader's behalf just to stop the debate, lol. Personally, I think Vader takes, it, Ox obviously wants his precious Dooku to win...but we'll never know for sure...

Yoda and Sidious are basically equal in terms, so they are 100% of one another.

Now Mace Windu is quite powerful. He has defeated Sidious in saber combat, but is probably weaker in the Force. Now there is also the chance that Sidious wasn’t really “trying”. For that, we can lower Mace’s strength a little bit. Therefore we yield:

Sidious/Yoda- 100%
Mace Windu- 92%

Now the next strongest warrior is Anakin Skywalker. Anakin while strong, is still a fair bit weaker than Sidious. However, he is described as being on par with Mace Windu. Since Mace Windu did defeat Sidious, he is stronger than Anakin. Anakin would probably be ranked as:

85% of Sidious.

Now we get Count Dooku. Anakin manages to dispose of Dooku within a minute of fighting, even while being taunted by Dooku’s Dun Moch. This shows a slightly larger gap of power between the two. Since Anakin is 85%, I would say Dooku would rounded off as 80% of Sidious.

Obi-Wan Kenobi ranks about 76% of Dooku.

Normal Jedi are about 40% of Sidious. A few others like Kit Fisto and Shaak Ti rank about 60% of Sidious.

Now we get to Vader, who I say is about 82% of Sidious. Let’s compare Anakin with Vader

Anakin:
-Masterful Djem So user
-Uses the Force abilities Push and Pull with an occasional weak Choke
-Extremely quick and agile
-Arrogant, sometimes costs him in battle

Darth Vader:
- In a futuristic suit which probably reduces his agility by ¼ of original, in the long run maybe 1/3
- Mastered several forms, including one-handed Djem So with Force
- Uses Force abilities Push, Pull, Choke, Persuasion, Telekinesis, Dissipate energy, Crush, Dun Moch
- Possesses great physical strength
- While fighting, he uses crushing blows which wears down the opponent. For those who say he is slow and useless, look at this:

People just judge him because of the choreography in the movies. If Vader was made today, he’d probably much quicker and even more powerful than Dooku. There is no reason why Vader cannot defeat Dooku. Just because he is in a suit does not mean he is like 7/8 of his original speed. His suit is not like medieval armor. His suit is futuristic and probably of only medium build. I would say even lightweight. It also gives protection from lightsaber blows, and Makashi won’t yield much kinetic power, so he is somewhat safe.

Vader > Dooku

Did you not just read my post? Where do I have speculation? I have given pure logic why Dooku doesn't beat Vader. Mace Windu is lesser than Sidious, and Anakin is lesser than Mace. Mace is around 92% and Anakin is around 85%. Dooku has to be at 80, otherwise it won't make sense since he'll be degraded or he's too overated.

In addition, Vader can keep up with Yoda. Yes, Yoda will win but Vader's style would be crushing for Yoda to keep blocking with. You cannot compare Dooku and Vader to Yoda as the match will appear differntly though in the end Yoda wins.

Wtf. Vader cant block lightning unless its with his saber - it is one of the curses of being a cyborg. If he does block it with his saber he gats sliced by Dooku's blade.

Dude, you're just making up a scenario of what could happen. Dooku's lightning was blocked by AOTC Obi-Wan. It's not that powerful to begin with. Second, Vader can block the lightning with his saber and with his hand Choke or throw something at Dooku.

And what could happen is that Vader starts telekinetically throw stuff as Dooku and then taunt him while doing, then proceeds to Choke him, and then slam his saber into Dooku's blade until finally Dooku gets his head cut off. If you had saw my picture, Vader is zooming himself into the Dark Woman and then slamming her with his saber. How do you know the same won't happen to Tyrannus.

Rampant Ox, I admire your fanboyism of Dooku. Dooku is very powerful, no doubt, but as you can see you can't let your fanboyism tamper with your judegement. Look at myself for example, when people put Quinlan Vos vs. NJO Kyp Durron, I know for sure that Vos gets owned. You have to admit defeat sometims. Dooku will put up a helluva fight, one that Vader will probably get himself injured in, but Dooku loses.

Who said that normal jedi were 40% of Sidious? That should be incorrect, since Sidious took 3 of the greatest EVER out in seconds....

Well maybe the Jedi Masters. I would they hope aren't 20 because then the Jedi suck!!!

Council Memebers and Select Few= 60%-70%
Normal Jedi Master= 40%
Jedi Knight= 30%

well windu kicked sidious ass with vaapad i dont know if it means he is stronger

anakin skywalker as presuit vader-80% the exact quote is as anakin skywalker

OT vader - higher than anakin, more experienced and problably 90-95% of sidious but according to the rodv novel they said that there would a day when they would become equals... i dont know if it collides with george lucas because GL knows what james luceno writes and he allowed that.

i know people get irritated and say "o gl said vader was 80% of sid" but thats as anakin skywalker not the vader we see in the OT because i think that statement came out shortly b4 rots

its also like the first darth was darth bane and all the sources and books said he was until kotor came out, then it was believed revan was the first darth, the another clone wars volume came out and this time it seems darth andeddu predates revan and bane get my point? its the same with vader

VADER PICTURES

IN THIS PICTURE, HE SLAYS A MONSTER HOUND BY USING HIS FISTS!!!:

And for those of you who says he can't use lightning, think again!:

well by that logic, if he can produce it, he should be able to block it..with or withOUT his saber...

well his lightning is different, it appears around the victim not from his hands, i read this part in some other websites

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
And for those of you who says he can't use lightning, think again!:

[Lex Luthor] WRONG! [/Lex Luthor]

Splinter of the Mind's Eye is hardly canon. Uh, what happened to the Kaiburr Crystal again? Nothing? It was never mentioned again? Why does Luke display a greater Force proficiency than he does in the movies? He does things in there that he can't do in the movies. Vader never lost another arm. SotME is pretty far from canon. I mean, it was like the first novel ever written.

But more importantly explain, if you will, how Vader can use Force lightning without dying when: a) Metal is an obvious conductor for electricity, b) Vader dies by getting hit with Force lightning, because it affected his suit, and c) Nothing is ever mentioned of Vader using lightning before, in fact, SoTME is trumped by RODV:

"Yes, Vader was not precisely what he had bargained for. Vader's legs and arms were artificial, and he would never be able to summon lightning or leap about like the Jedi had been fond of doing."

-- Rise of Darth Vader, Chapter 21; written by James Luceno, 2005.

Think again! 2005 > 1978.

yes and RODV stated that there would be a day when vader and sidious are equals and in some game i read on the net he can summon lightning, a variation, instead if it coming from your fingers it appears around an opponent where only a full force shield can block

and why woud sotme be not canon? no one stated any of the EUis canon

Originally posted by ESB Vader
yes and RODV stated that there would be a day when vader and sidious are equals

What relevance does this have to the conversation about Vader not being able to ever use Force lightning again? Oh? Nothing? Okay then. Firstly, RODV states it as fact, secondly, not only does RODV state it but apparently the ROTS Visual Dictionary says that Vader could not successfully summon or repel Force lightning as it required living hands to do so.

But really, what did this have to do with anything? Are you trying to discredit RODV? If so, terrible job. Didn't you already have this conversation with Lightsnake in which case it was stated to be indirectly voicing Vader's opinion? I really could care less, as that's not important whatsoever but RODV and the ROTSVD hold precedent over SotME because they came out years later thus retconning it. Plus, as I said, SotME is hardly canon.

and in some game i read on the net he can summon lightning, a variation, instead if it coming from your fingers it appears around an opponent where only a full force shield can block

1.) Some random fansite states that Vader can do this and that. Well guess what? I don't care. If that even is true we already know it's simple gameplay conventions, and I'd be willing to bet the games were released for the friggin' SNES. Again, Donald Trumped

2.) Who gives a shit? Vader can't use Force lightning. Period. There are no variations, he cannot summon any version of lightning. Perhaps pull a Kyp Durron, but it'd more than likely strike Vader for the obvious reasons that his suit is a conductor for electricity.

and why woud sotme be not canon? no one stated any of the EUis canon

I guess someone needs to equip their super-spectacles:

Originally posted by Advent
Splinter of the Mind's Eye is hardly canon.

Keyword: hardly. In other words, borderline canon due to the fact about a thousand things in it cannot happen or have not been mentioned again. For example, the Kaiburr Crystal, Vader losing a limb (and tripping over it), Luke's Force proficiency being greater than it is in the movie, Vader's lightning, Luke and Leia's attraction, etc. And that's just off the top of my head. Add to the fact it was the first Star Wars novel to be released thirty years ago, and it's not like they had a fudging clue what was going on. RODV holds precedent over SotME. Vader cannot use Force lightning.

Originally posted by Advent
"Yes, Vader was not precisely what he had bargained for. Vader's legs and arms were artificial, and [b]he would never be able to summon lightning or leap about like the Jedi had been fond of doing."

-- Rise of Darth Vader, Chapter 21; written by James Luceno, 2005. [/B]

Keyword: hardly. In other words, borderline canon due to the fact about a thousand things in it cannot happen or have not been mentioned again. For example, the Kaiburr Crystal, Vader losing a limb (and tripping over it), Luke's Force proficiency being greater than it is in the movie, Vader's lightning, Luke and Leia's attraction, etc. And that's just off the top of my head. Add to the fact it was the first Star Wars novel to be released thirty years ago, and it's not like they had a fudging clue what was going on. RODV holds precedent over SotME. Vader cannot use Force lightning.

Well it was said if the New Hope was not a success, SoTME would be a low-budget sequel, thus indicating that Lucas agreed that it could have been made as a movie. In the movie, they would have showed Vader throwing lightning. However, to say it is not hardly canon would be incorrect, in just some parts of it, it shows exaggerations like Luke throwing lightning back at Vader.

Of course, A New Hope was a BIG HIT, so SoTME as a movie was screwed.

BTW Advent, chill out girl.

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
However, to say it is not hardly canon would be incorrect, in just some parts of it, it shows exaggerations like Luke throwing lightning back at Vader.

No, it is hardly canon. Whether it would've been made a movie or not doesn't matter. Why? Because it's not. Anyways, there's several parts in it that cannot happen, have no mention again, or don't follow continuity basically. It is canon - no one is denying that, but because most parts of it are trumped as mentioned, I shall deem it "hardly canon". Since those parts are not canonical.

EDIT: I should say just canon because majority of it seems to be trumped by other sources. Basically, as I've been saying, it's canon, but barely due to reasons I've been relaying. It is not a source to use on Vader's lightning, Luke's proficiency with the Force, the Kaiburr crystal, Vader's hand, Luke & Leia's attraction, etc.

(Wow. I just completely repeated myself. Awesome.)

2.) Perhaps pull a Kyp Durron, but it'd more than likely strike Vader for the obvious reasons that his suit is a conductor for electricity.

LOLLLL! Man, it would be hilarious if that happened.