Darth Vader versus Darth Tyranus

A-HA! I didnt say he wasnt slower, but you say because its in film, its canon...true...to a point. They didnt have digital masking like they do now. Pure and simple. If they had, Im sure he would have done that for Alec Guiness. im sorry but just because a film was made nearly 30 before with technology WAY behind what we have now, is not a fair comparison. Doesnt matter...vader wins...

Also Vader was BESTED by Luke who was slower than Dooku, but he also killed many more Jedi who would WTFpwn Luke, during the purges. Let's see when the show comes out (provided they do the smart thing and include Vader). Then we'll have a new measuring stick for his speed.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Well, Sidious is better than Vader. The saga isn't about him. So...that logic fails.

And A>B>C works fine unless you don't agree with it. I mean, honestly. You say OT Vader can take ROTS Yoda? I'm finding that very unlikely and completely ludicrous.

Dooku lost to ROTS Anakin. You all think OT Vader could beat ROTS Anakin? I really don't. And I've already said why I think the results of that fight aren't exactly plain. Anywa, Dooku learned the dark side in his youth. I remember reading he studied a Sith holocron he found. By no means did Dooku spend all his life learnigna nd using the light side of The Force. He was never a true Jedi as his ideas clashed very much so with those of the Order.

o? in the name of screaming sh!t why do you think ROTS anakin is far better than vader? OT vader did sh!t anakin couldnt do, huh choking some1 a mile away, being far stronger in saber combat, a far wider range of dark side powers, being more patient and intelligent than his brainless counterpart and yes sidious is better than vader, not till the day he became equal to sidious as stated by the novel because that 80% thing from gl was referring to presuit vader, and OT vader clearly is far stronger than his predecessor o and didnt some game featured him using lightning from the air? i dont know if that is canon.

i am sick of people saying and thinking "An!K1n !$ bEtTeR tHAn V@D3r BeCuz EP 4 5 6 is $0 SloW" only an idiot would say that, lucas already ADMITTED that he didnt made the fighting good till the PT

Originally posted by Rampant ox
I agree that thats what should have happened. But the simple truth is that it didnt. We are stuck with them fighting clumsy and slow, and because it is in the movie it is canon. Now in the EU we see Vader fight much faster, and thats fair enough. So with this we can find some middle ground. Vader is faster than he is on the movies, but slower than EU (purely because movies are higher canon). We cant say he is as fast as he is in EU because it directly contradicts the movie.

o?? so the blades are thin in the movie so its canon? because the space scene looked crappy so its "canon" is it? what the hell are you talking about. i want you to prove that the slow ness is canon, so, is sidious lightning purple because the rotj movie says so? lucas admited the props WERE heavy, so did obi wan become a frail weak man?

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
[B]A-HA! I didnt say he wasnt slower, but you say because its in film, its canon...true...to a point. They didnt have digital masking like they do now. Pure and simple. If they had, Im sure he would have done that for Alec Guiness.

Lol, probably. And that quote from GL is probably just another spout of mindless bs. But he is god - you cant argue with god. If he says it was meant to be that slow then it is.

im sorry but just because a film was made nearly 30 before with technology WAY behind what we have now, is not a fair comparison.

No, it wouldnt be. Except GL states that it was slow because of the 'old man vs machine' factor. If it was remade today it would be better. But its not being remade today, its slow and clumsy and thats its whats canon. get over it and get used to it.

Doesnt matter...vader wins...

Lol 🙄

Originally posted by ESB Vader
o?? so the blades are thin in the movie so its canon?

No. There is a fine line between what is meant to be and what is just movie errors. Besides, the size os a saber is way different to the choreography of a fight.

because the space scene looked crappy so its "canon" is it?

what space scene. The space scenes you see are canon, the are precisely what happened and are precisely what GL is trying to display. Your opinion on them being 'crappy' doesnt change this

i want you to prove that the slow ness is canon,

Why is the slowness canon.?Gee, heck, im taking a wild guess here but is it because that is what is shown in the movie. 🙄

so, is sidious lightning purple because the rotj movie says so? lucas admited the props WERE heavy, so did obi wan become a frail weak man? [/B]

Yes and yes. Kenobi is a frail old man. Powerful in the force, but pretty rusty with a blade.

ROTJ Palpatine vs. ANH Obi-Wan vs. TMP Anakin. SABERS ONLY. lol

😆

*Anakin holds up a saber handle* Wow. Neat! *he rolls it over in his hands, finds the activation buttonand presses it. The blade shoots out, through the middle of his forehead and he falls over*

The Chosen One indeed.

But, anywho, this topic has to be said to be agree to disagree because well, 400 posts on we're not agreeing yet.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
*Anakin holds up a saber handle* Wow. Neat! *he rolls it over in his hands, finds the activation buttonand presses it. The blade shoots out, through the middle of his forehead and he falls over*

The Chosen One indeed.

LOL

"Are you threatening me Master Jedi"? *struggles off throne with walking stick and hobbles up to Obi-Wan*
"Help meee I, I cant hold it any longer" *trys to lift his lightsaber*

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Lol, probably. And that quote from GL is probably just another spout of mindless bs. But he is god - you cant argue with god. If he says it was meant to be that slow then it is.

No, it wouldnt be. Except GL states that it was slow because of the 'old man vs machine' factor. If it was remade today it would be better. But its not being remade today, its slow and clumsy and thats its whats canon. get over it and get used to it.

Lol 🙄

he also mentioned that it was slow because the props are heavy and he already said the fighting was suppose to be faster, that old man vs machine thing, and no you get over it, vader is faster than you think, already his agility has been proven in rodv of taking 3 jedi at once or maybe 2 and taking on 7 jedi masters in the clone wars volume 9.

your logic sucks, proof that because it is in the movie it is canon? like the slow battle, so is luke still slow by lotf because he is slow in the movies? no offense rampant ox that is a truck load of shit, you just cant accept the fact that vader is fast, there is something called the novel of the OT, where you imagine the fight, your assumptions are full of shit, no offense prove to all of us that because the OT was slow, so that meant luke, vader, emperor palpatine, obi wan , yoda was slow.

hell is yoda slow in the OT because at that time he was a puppet?
hell you said the blades were different and you contradict yourself indirectly, you said what ever, the word ever. appeard in the movie it is canon, so are you saying that it is canon the blades get thinner and thinner?

iam 100% sure if they put dooku in the OT and he was slow because the props are heavy you are going to do what i am doing, i will bet with you on this

use common sense, do you think lucas wants to remake the OT? it would be a total disaster, look at sebastian shaw, the anakin skywalker spirit in rotj, lucas changed it to hayden and people get pissed off.

look at the ROTS game, vader was fast, but slightly slower than anakin, are you going to say that it is not canon? o then it means that serra keto is a fake is it?

then what about crimson empires flashback? vader was fast, agile and did sh!t as if he was in the matrix, like neos pole in the ground and a kick to his enemy? that in rodv he used formV to fend of 2 jedis? that he pwned master roan?

if vader was as slow as you claimed how the hell did he fend and killed two jedi knights in battle with form V and yet take on 7 jedi masters even though he nearly died? how the hell did he cut and kill a huge group of wookies? whom are fast creatures, how can a slow vader do all that, simple, he was fast, faster than you think, slightly slower than anakin but still fast, proof, rots game, crimson empire, rodv and he even killed beasts with his bare hands,
you got owned again rampant

GL even mentioned that when he made the OT the idea of a fast fight didnt pop in his head, he wanted to make it look classical, like zorros dueling

and do you think obiwan was really frail and slacked so much in his saber combat? wrong again, just like palpatine who wouldnt allow his skills to get rusty even if we had never seen him practising after the movies

No, it wouldnt be. Except GL states that it was slow because of the 'old man vs machine' factor. If it was remade today it would be better. But its not being remade today, its slow and clumsy and thats its whats canon. get over it and get used to it.

This is retarded. Then 30 years ago, if your precious Christopher Lee would have been fighting as Dooku, he would have been moving as fast as a snail.

When Vader faught Luke, he was doing what he was told, he didnt want to hurt Luke at all. You think that LORD VADER couldnt hit a kid standing on a platform with his saber if he wanted? C'mon, by that time, he had love for his son. Luke was his last bridge to his former self, the last thing that the good man in him could relate too. And I know youre going to say that Dooku was doing as he was told, but he had NO connection to Anakin besides hate. And with Luke swinging like that, Vader made no attempt to attack, which he easily could have done. Luke tried that shit in ESB kinda and look at where it got him...Vader was going easy on him them, and in RoTJ. Notice 4 seconds after Luke tagged him shoulder, he lost a hand cause Vader stopped playing with him.
With the exception of PRIOR to RoTS, no version of Anakin could lose to Dooku. When he first turned to the Darkside, he wasnt as angry as he was with OB1, with everyone else. He got that mad because he thought his wife betrayed him and brought OB1 to kill him, and then thought that OB1 had turned the one person he loved (and actually loved him back) against him. Dooku could never get him that riled up, so there would be no reason his mind would get as clouded as it did with OB1.

I am on your side man, but the basic fact is Luke is not a weakling by ESB. In fact, he is on the level of Qui-Gon Jinn.

Finally, Rampant, stop being a fanboy. You just can't deny Vader wins, so you resort to cheap tactics. If you actually have an argument, please say it, because your current one is getting pummeled.

This argument fails. The Count Dooku vs. ROTJ Luke topic established that ROTJ Luke was smoked by Dooku. OT Vader was smoked by Luke. So, A>B>C. How the hell is Vader in the suit gonna contend with a Makashi master when he can't even take Luke's inprecise and wild swings? Cyborg Maul nearly beat Vader. Could Dooku defeat Cyborg Maul? I'm pretty sure.

Don't denounce a person as a fanboy. your argument fails right there. I present Dooku could go with yoda in sabers. Vader in OT couldn't. Doesn't that alone display why Dooku would win? Unless, you say he'd lose because he's too slow in the suit to keep up with Atar in which case that goes back to my point that Dooku [i]was[/]able to keep up with Yoda's tremendous speed.

WTF? OT Vader WAS NOT SMOKED BY LUKE!!!! Where the hell did you get that? And yes, ROTJ Luke is on MAUL"S LEVEL, NOT DOOKU, SO DOOKU IS BETTER THAN LUKE. And why couldn't Vader go against Yoda?

Um, you didn't see the movie, I guess. Remember the part where Lue was just banging his saber against Vader's and Vader fell down? No tactical swings or offensive strategy. Just manic bashing of one saber against another and Vader was overwhelmed by that. Remember where Vader lost his hand, was on the ground and Luke had his saber on him? Smoked, indeed.

And why couldn't Vader in the suit take Yoda? Because uh, Yoda is possibly the fast duelist to ever live. The Force grants him more speed than OT Vader could ever dream of hanessing in a fight.

no i never saw Vader fall til his hand was cut. He goes from one saide to other side of the ramp and kneels down. A>B>C DOES NOT WORK OR MEAN SHIT!!!!

Thats like saying ok, The Bucs can beat the Cowboys, and the Redskins can beat the Bucs, but that in NO way means that the Redskins can beat the Cowboys (as much of a redskins fan as i am 🙁)...it just doesnt work.
Its not like when you go to class and you have a test question where "Pam is taller than Mike, Joe is tshorter than Pam, Gregs taller that Pam, who's the tallest?" THATS and A>B>C problem, not who wins in a fight...

WAIT PROOF!!! Anakin PWND Dooku, OB1 beat Anakin, but how did OB1 do the twp times he fought Dooku? He LOST....OOOHHHH THAT ARGUMENT FAILS!!!!!

point, set, match.

Um, you didn't see the movie, I guess. Remember the part where Lue was just banging his saber against Vader's and Vader fell down? No tactical swings or offensive strategy. Just manic bashing of one saber against another and Vader was overwhelmed by that. Remember where Vader lost his hand, was on the ground and Luke had his saber on him? Smoked, indeed.

THE DARK SIDE MY FRIEND! Vader tempted the wrong pissed off side of Luke and so Luke goes berserk on him. And Vader was still "trying" to seduce Luke, though he was still trying to disarm him.

And why couldn't Vader in the suit take Yoda? Because uh, Yoda is possibly the fast duelist to ever live. The Force grants him more speed than OT Vader could ever dream of hanessing in a fight.

Dooku and Vader fight totally differently. If Vader and Yoda fight, Vader would slam his saber into Yoda, nearly crushing our "little green friend". He'll push back Yoda, but then Yoda's quickness finally overcomes Vader. I can see both fighting Yoda.

THE DARK SIDE MY FRIEND! Vader tempted the wrong pissed off side of Luke and so Luke goes berserk on him. And Vader was still "trying" to seduce Luke, though he was still trying to disarm him.

You're right. If Luke was pissed off and fought Obi-Wan like that or yoda like that, he would over totally destroyed them. his amazing ability in Form Lightsaber Bat enpowered by the dark side allowed him to beat Vadr and would thus work on any other fighter in the universe. He pissed off Luke yes but a pissed off Luke was completely ridiculous in how he wielded a saber. If Luke was doing that type of fighting to Dooku, you think he'd be able to knock Dooku back as bad as he did Vader?

WAIT PROOF!!! Anakin PWND Dooku, OB1 beat Anakin, but how did OB1 do the twp times he fought Dooku? He LOST....OOOHHHH THAT ARGUMENT FAILS!!!!!

Becaue Anakin was stupid.

You're right. If Luke was pissed off and fought Obi-Wan like that or yoda like that, he would over totally destroyed them. his amazing ability in Form Lightsaber Bat enpowered by the dark side allowed him to beat Vadr and would thus work on any other fighter in the universe. He pissed off Luke yes but a pissed off Luke was completely ridiculous in how he wielded a saber. If Luke was doing that type of fighting to Dooku, you think he'd be able to knock Dooku back as bad as he did Vader?

Umm, so what?? Yeah, Luke could probably do that, I mean he's Luke, the guy who has the strongest potential in the universe. Luke slam into Dooku like Anakin did to the Count two decades ago.

Becaue Anakin was stupid.

Exactly, and now Vader is a very calm, out for the kill master.

Umm, so what?? Yeah, Luke could probably do that, I mean he's Luke, the guy who has the strongest potential in the universe. Luke slam into Dooku like Anakin did to the Count two decades ago.

And Anakin had the strongest potential. Potential above Obi-Wan's. Know what? He still lost two legs and an arm. Potential means nothing if you make dumb moves. Luke just randomly slamming his saber against another saber with no skill or tactics will equal his doom against any compitent saber duelists.

Exactly, and now Vader is a very calm, out for the kill master.

And yet he was still downed by a mad Luke with no form or intelligence in his swings. .

Quinlan_Vos presents :

Arguments for Darth Vader

1.) The Logic Argument:

In the Empire and PT Era, Yoda and Darth Sidious are the two personalities Jedi and Sith wish to attain. Since they are the highest standard, they can be considered as:

Sidious/Yoda = 100%

The next strongest Force User in the galaxy is Mace Windu. The Korun Jedi Master is quite powerful. He has defeated Darth Sidious in saber combat, but is probably weaker in the Force. Now there is also the chance that Sidious wasn’t really “trying”. For that, we can lower Mace’s strength a little bit. Therefore we yield:

Sidious/Yoda- 100%
Mace Windu- 92%

Now the next strongest warrior is Anakin Skywalker. Anakin while strong, is still a fair bit weaker than Sidious as he accepts Sidious is a greater master than he is. Sidious himself acknowledges that and says to Yoda, "Vader WILL be stronger than either of us." However, he is described as being on par with Mace Windu. Since Mace Windu did defeat Sidious, he is stronger than Anakin. Anakin would probably be ranked as:

85% of Sidious.

Now we get Count Dooku. Anakin manages to dispose of Dooku within a minute of fighting, even while being taunted by Dooku’s Dun Moch. This shows a slightly larger gap of power between the two. Since Anakin is 85%, I would say Dooku would be rounded off as 80% of Sidious. This is so otherwise the Count would have challenged Sidious for power. Mace Windu, being 92% of Sidious, still defeats the Dark Lord. If Dooku was at that power, why didn't he? Because he knows he is a fair bit weaker than Palpatine.

Finally, Master Obi-Wan Kenobi ranks about 76% of Dooku as he gets defeated by the Count of Serenno via Force.

Normal Jedi are about 40% of Sidious. A few others like Kit Fisto and Shaak Ti and Quinlan Vos rank about 60-70% of Sidious.

Now we get to Vader, who I say is about 82% of Sidious. Now, why I am saying this? Anakin, as we know, while powerful, hasn't reached a high knowledge of the Force and he only knows one form. Vader has mastered the Dark Side and knows multiple forms. Plus, Vader is more calm-minded and dangerous that Anakin who is more cocky and a show-off. Vader's suit now does cause Vader a problem. It probably reduces his speed by a 1/4. Since Anakin is the second fastest swordsmen to only Yoda, Vader would still be somewhat agile. However, if anybody manages to lock blades with him, his strength is the only that destroys the person. Because of speed, I can reduce Vader's strength to about 82% of Sidious. After all, Vader also believes he can challenge Sidious, while Dooku doesn't harbor the thought.

2.) The Force Powers:

Count Dooku:

- Force Choke
- Force Lightning
- Force Wave
- Force Push
- Force Pull
- Dun Moch

Vader:

- Force Choke/Crush
- Force Pull
- Force Push
- Force Wave
- Telekinesis
- Dissipate Energy
- Dun Moch
- Lightsaber w/The Force Talent

While Dooku has Lightning, Vader’s weakness, Vader can easily block it. Second, Vader can still fight while telekinetically using the Force. Plus, he could block Tyrannus’s Lightning with his lightsaber. Basically, Dooku doesn’t have a great advantage. From what it looks like, Vader owns with the Force.

3.) Lightsaber Duel:

Dooku is a master of Force II: Makashi. Makashi utilizes quick strokes, but don’t have much kinetic power. Makashi is what makes Dooku dangerous. It is made for saber vs. saber. However, Makashi’s weakness was revealed when Dooku fought against Anakin and his Djem So.

Darth Vader is a master of one-handed Djem So. Since Vader is all strength, and Djem So is full of strength, to fight against Vader and his Shien would be like getting crushed.

If the two fought in a duel, Dooku’s Makashi can contend with Vader’s zooming Djem So, however the damage done to Vader won’t be much due to Vader’s suit, which prevents lightsaber blows to an extent.

In addition, Vader can use the Force while fighting. Dooku has to stop for a second to use a Force move.

Basically, it is Speed vs. Strength. Even though Vader loses a great deal of speed, his suit, the Force, and his strength with Djem So shields him from Dooku and his deadliness. Like in ROTS, Dooku loses again.

In recap: Dooku’s speed works well against Vader’s immbolitly. However, Vader’s wins by his strength and lightsaber skill and via the Force. Logically as well, Vader wins.