Darth Vader versus Darth Tyranus

Lol, didnt we just clear this issue up. Dooku is faster. Vader is certainly not slow but simply not as fast.

Rampant, this reasoning is f*cked up. We are not going to base Vader just on the movies, because the frickin movies were made thirty years ago! ESB is right then, LOTF Luke must be < Obi-Wan Kenobi because in ROTJ, he doesn't fight well.

Yes, Dooku is faster. But it doesn't matter against Vader. We all know Dooku is faster, but speed won't matter in the long run. Vader wins.

Rampant, that reasoning is messed up. You have no options so you’re resorting to the fact that EVEN THOUGH THE MOVIES WERE MADE THIRTY YEARS BACK AND HA D NO CG Vader is screwed to Dooku. I guess Jett Zukasa > ANH Obi-Wan because ANH Obi-Wan fought like s*it in the movies. Lol.

During the time period the movies were made, the speed of Luke vs. Vader was like Anakin vs. Obi-Wan to us. You can’t compare them. The EU HELPS VADER, it does not contradict the movies as you say.

Doesn't matter what you say, Dooku is faster, but in the overall duel, Vader wins. Why? Well that's why I typed up that Argument and why ESB Vader and Subjekt are tired of your constant "Dooku is faster, ergo he wins" speech.

well vos id have to agree to that. its very very unfair, especially to people who know so little about SW and dont take down the history or note anything, no not you rampant ox, you know alot about sw and i respect your arguements 🙂

people like Final fantasy geeks, marvel hardcores, and anime brats judge the speed of vader by the movies, hell even vader beat sephiroth in a cross over match forums and i hear shit like "doom can steal the force" or "spider sense counters the force" that is a truck load of shit

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
ESB is right then, LOTF Luke must be < Obi-Wan Kenobi because in ROTJ, he doesn't fight well.

That comparison doesn't work at all. You'd have to sub. in a movie character for LOTF Luke because LOTF Luke improved tenfold from his ROTJ counterpart, and obviously got better in speed (see: NJO, DE, etc.).

people like Final fantasy geeks, marvel hardcores, and anime brats judge the speed of vader by the movies, hell even vader beat sephiroth in a cross over match forums and i hear shit like "doom can steal the force" or "spider sense counters the force" that is a truck load of shit

Yeah, all Vader needs to do is throw a piece of debris on Spidey's head, and there you go, Spiderman is gone.

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
Yeah, all Vader needs to do is throw a piece of debris on Spidey's head, and there you go, Spiderman is gone.

Ha. No. I hope you are kidding.

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
Everything in the book is canon, HOWEVER certain parts are hyperboles.

As I forgot to reply to this (probably because of annoyance), I'll do it now:

No, if something is blatantly contradicted it is not canon. In terms of being an "exaggeration" (because that's what hyperbole is), you'd be wrong. Vader using Force lightning is hardly an exaggeration, it's a blatant contradiction. And there's several more. I'd also like to call into question if you think Vader using an apparent blue blade is an "exaggeration", rather than a mistake:

"Swinging his saber until it was no more than a blue blur in the dank air of the temple, he leaped straight up into the air."

SotME isn't purely hyperbole, it contains now non-canonical information. So, you'sa wrong. Plus, usually hyperbole is taken as a figure of speech, or rather something someone already does, but is made to sound extravagant. Vader using Force lightning is not hyperbole, it's a contradiction.

SotME has non-canonical elements, as Leland Chee has stated anything that blatantely contradicts is considered "N-Canon". Vader using Force lightning is thus "N-Canon", and is not canon.

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
I guess Jett Zukasa > ANH Obi-Wan because ANH Obi-Wan fought like s*it in the movies. Lol.

Well actually, yes, because he is Lucas' son, he automatically wins any fight

Originally posted by Nikkolas
You are the one who is being unreasonable. The argument I presented was to prove Dooku's speriority in battle. Superiority in battle in terms of sabers, The Force and prowise. You are giving me Obi-Wan beating Anakin which is not an example of any of those. It is an example of Anakin's own stupidity and arrogance. I present to you that Dooku stalemated Yoda in sabers and thoroughly bested Anakin & Obi-Wan at the start of the ROTS fight. An example of what you're postulating is saying Dooku beat Anakin just because he shot him with Force lightning. See? That alone does not demonstrate Dooku's superiority in battle. It demonstrates Anakin lost due to being overconfident. Now, Dooku besting Anakin in sabers later on proves Dooku is superior to him. See how that works? When you win a fight with superiority in sabers and The Force, the A>B>C rule applies. Obi-Wan won through Anakin's moronic move, not superiority.

Besides, A>B>C does as much to demonstrate power and technique as it does to show one person is better than another. For instance, Dooku went rounds with yoda, correct? That shows his high ability. I do not claim the fact he did this as the end to all debate. I merely point to it as an accomplishment Vader could not mimic.

ok...then by your logic this next statement will be true and there will be NO reason for argument...Dooku went rounds with Yoda, as you stated. You believe that Dooku stalemated Yoda, i saw him tuck his tail and run, but you claim stalemate....by the A>B>C logic that you seem to live by...Anakin could easily beat Yoda in saber combat. Yep, Dooku went ROUNDS (plural)with Yoda, and Anakin pwned Dooku rather quickly. So then by the A>B>C logic, Anakin kills Yoda. He killed Dooku out of superiority. So thank you for making Anakin that much better. 😄

And in fighting, there are MANY different factors that make a combatant complete. Not only knowing what to do, but what NOT to do, and when NOT to do it. So yes, in that fight, OB1 was a more complete, well rounded fighter, and it showed. Anakin was more powerful, actually according to GL the most powerful Jedi at the time of ROTS, but his arrogance was a flaw in his fighting. So in that case OB1 was superior. And I am in NO WAY an OB1 fanboy, I really dont care for him, but he won that fight by being better.

ok...then by your logic this next statement will be true and there will be NO reason for argument...Dooku went rounds with Yoda, as you stated. You believe that Dooku stalemated Yoda, i saw him tuck his tail and run, but you claim stalemate....by the A>B>C logic that you seem to live by...Anakin could easily beat Yoda in saber combat.

Uh, dude, he had the plans to the Death Star. He wanted to tool Kenobi and Skywalker but Yoda showing up was a surprise. Whether he would have lost or not is unknown no matter what you may claim, but he left because he was given the plans to the Death Star and had to leave. I felt that was obvious.

Yep, Dooku went ROUNDS (plural)with Yoda, and Anakin pwned Dooku rather quickly. So then by the A>B>C logic, Anakin kills Yoda. He killed Dooku out of superiority. So thank you for making Anakin that much better. big grin

Winning a saber duel implies you bested the other person in skill and somehow got them in your mercy by using your saber. Anakin grabbed Dooku's arms and choped them off. That isn't fighting with a saber, last time I checked. And Dooku was fighting both Anakin and Obi-Wan at first. And Dooku had them both on the ropes in seconds. If he had wanted to (which he didn't because that was not the plan) hw could have done away with Anakin then and there....

Winning a saber duel implies you bested the other person in skill and somehow got them in your mercy by using your saber. Anakin grabbed Dooku's arms and choped them off. That isn't fighting with a saber, last time I checked. And Dooku was fighting both Anakin and Obi-Wan at first. And Dooku had them both on the ropes in seconds. If he had wanted to (which he didn't because that was not the plan) hw could have done away with Anakin then and there....

1.) Anakin and Obi-Wan do not use the same style. Anakin was using Djem So while Obi was using Ataru for the beginning part. Anakin's Djem So requires space, but in order to go into full rage he needs to be by himself otherwise he has the risk of cutting Kenobi.

2.) Anakin used Cho Sun, a Jedi fighting move where you cut off the opponent's hand. How is that not lightsaber fighting?

3.) Dooku kicked Anakin and then spent some time getting rid of Obi. He knew that both of them are dangerous, so he eliminated one. But that meant he has to face Anakin.

4.) Thus, Dooku couldn't have been done with Anakin. And don't tell me "oh he was forced to play around" because he was "fighting for his life".

.

1.) Anakin and Obi-Wan do not use the same style. Anakin was using Djem So while Obi was using Ataru for the beginning part. Anakin's Djem So requires space, but in order to go into full rage he needs to be by himself otherwise he has the risk of cutting Kenobi.

Oh, I see. That is why Obi-Wan said they should take him together because it will decrease their chances of winning. ingenious.

2.) Anakin used Cho Sun, a Jedi fighting move where you cut off the opponent's hand. How is that not lightsaber fighting?

Chopping off your opponent's hands, yes, but how is the key. He did not out-skill Dooku in blades. He did not catch him off-balance or off-guard and strike. He used an unorthadoz move that was more strength than his saber. He grabbed Dooku and then cut. That isn't beating him with his saber. It's beating him with his own physical power. Vader fought Luke in a duela nd cut off his hand, right? Well, he did fight Luke with his saber and never grabbed Luke's arms and then cut. That is showing Vader outduel Luke. What Anakin did was simply exert his superior physical strength.

3.) Dooku kicked Anakin and then spent some time getting rid of Obi. He knew that both of them are dangerous, so he eliminated one. But that meant he has to face Anakin.

Oh, I see. So, he beat Anakin down and then, had Kenobi not been there, would have been well open to using a Force attack on Anakin while he was downed. So, you prove my point. It was a 2-on-1 fight.

4.) Thus, Dooku couldn't have been done with Anakin. And don't tell me "oh he was forced to play around" because he was "fighting for his life".

Let's see...Not his intent to kill Anakin and he wasn't fighting for his life because Sidious was supposed to save him. You can quote the novelization all you want but Dooku was not fighting for his life because Palpatine was to save him if he was in trouble. So, your argument fails. Dooku was not to kill Anakin and he did not think he was to be killed either. Both high factors in not fighting to your fullest.

Arguing Dooku fought for his life and didn't think Palpatine could save him fails by just looking at his face. He was not fighting for his life....

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Uh, dude, he had the plans to the Death Star. He wanted to tool Kenobi and Skywalker but Yoda showing up was a surprise. Whether he would have lost or not is unknown no matter what you may claim, but he left because he was given the plans to the Death Star and had to leave. I felt that was obvious.

Winning a saber duel implies you bested the other person in skill and somehow got them in your mercy by using your saber. Anakin grabbed Dooku's arms and choped them off. That isn't fighting with a saber, last time I checked. And Dooku was fighting both Anakin and Obi-Wan at first. And Dooku had them both on the ropes in seconds. If he had wanted to (which he didn't because that was not the plan) hw could have done away with Anakin then and there....

Thats one of the most idiotic things i've EVER read on this board. He retreated cause he knew he would lose, "no matter what you may claim". I know he had to get the plans out, but why not take out another Jedi? He could have easily left when Anakin was burning on the wall and OB1 was down...did he leave then? No. he chose to try to kill Kenobi, and then took out Anakin. If he felt he could take ut Yoda, he would tried harder. And when he did leave, he RAN up the ramp, not just walk away calmly. He was scared. And rightfully so. I felt that was obvious.

What did he use to cut dooku's hands off with? What di dhe use to cut his head off with? Lightsaber(s) maybe? Maybe you need to "check" again. I didnt say anything about what Dooku did to the both of them, i mentioned how Anakin ALONE pwned Dooku. So i dont a flying shit how you look at it, if you use the a>b>c argument, then Anakin beats Yoda.

Now back to the topic at hand. If Anakin could pwn Dooku oh so badly as a young man of the light side of the force, then Darth Vader, a man who has dedicated over 20 years to perfecting his use of the darkside of the force, and is stronger in the force than Anakin in general, AND who has more control over his emotions, will be certain to win. His form is not based on speed, but power...yet another area where Vader has increased. So the point that he is slower than his unsuited self, is irrelevant. What good is being fast if you have a huge dominant man battering down on you? He loses, pure and simple...

LOL!

Thats one of the most idiotic things i've EVER read on this board. He retreated cause he knew he would lose, "no matter what you may claim". I know he had to get the plans out, but why not take out another Jedi? He could have easily left when Anakin was burning on the wall and OB1 was down...did he leave then? No. he chose to try to kill Kenobi, and then took out Anakin. If he felt he could take ut Yoda, he would tried harder. And when he did leave, he RAN up the ramp, not just walk away calmly. He was scared. And rightfully so. I felt that was obvious.

You think any fight with Yoda will be over quickly? A. He did not bargain on Yoda showing up. B. A fight with Yoda will take all of his reserves. He had to get the plans to the Death Star out of there. Falling to bravado and continuing to fight Yoda had no purpose. He wanted to showcase his new power and skill to Yoda and he did What purpose was there to stay and continue fighting a fight that would take everything he haD when his only real objective was to get the plans to Sidious? Dooku isn’t stupid.

What did he use to cut dooku's hands off with? What di dhe use to cut his head off with? Lightsaber(s) maybe? Maybe you need to "check" again. I didnt say anything about what Dooku did to the both of them, i mentioned how Anakin ALONE pwned Dooku. So i dont a flying shit how you look at it, if you use the a>b>c argument, then Anakin beats Yoda.

That's bullshit and I'm not the only one who has said it. Ever since ROTS happened, it was evident to anyone Dooku did not have a fair fight. He was not expecting to die. He was not expecting to kill Anakin. He was double-teamed and had to expend energy to deal with two opponents. So, no, that argument does not work. Anakin did not defeat Dooku in any semblance of fairness.

Now back to the topic at hand. If Anakin could pwn Dooku oh so badly as a young man of the light side of the force, then Darth Vader, a man who has dedicated over 20 years to perfecting his use of the darkside of the force, and is stronger in the force than Anakin in general, AND who has more control over his emotions, will be certain to win. His form is not based on speed, but power...yet another area where Vader has increased. So the point that he is slower than his unsuited self, is irrelevant. What good is being fast if you have a huge dominant man battering down on you? He loses, pure and simple...

Anakin did not pwn Dooku. Anakin was a lucky S.O.B. He had everything working for him including Obi-Wan who held his own against Anakin later on. So, your assertion that if ROTS Anakin can beat Dooku, then OT Vader can beat Dooku collapses on itself. And being slow doesn't matter? Oh, I see. That's why The Hulk could totally destroy The Flash. The Hulk has superior physical strength while The Flash is just fast. Being uber-strong suddenly beats the hell out of being faster, in whatever fantasy world you inhabit.

Besides, let's use your pitiful argument that ROTS Anakin beat Dooku, as faulty as it is. ROTJ Luke, using no real form of sabers besides just randomly smacking his own blade against Vader's took him down and put him in retreat. So, if a rookie with minimal saber skills goes one-on-one with OT Vader and can push him back using such a feeble form of combat, it is decided Dooku destroys Vader.

Anakin did not pwn Dooku. Anakin was a lucky S.O.B. He had everything working for him including Obi-Wan who held his own against Anakin later on. So, your assertion that if ROTS Anakin can beat Dooku, then OT Vader can beat Dooku collapses on itself. And being slow doesn't matter? Oh, I see. That's why The Hulk could totally destroy The Flash. The Hulk has superior physical strength while The Flash is just fast. Being uber-strong suddenly beats the hell out of being faster, in whatever fantasy world you inhabit.

Dude, Dooku replenished himself when he fights Anakin alone. He then manages to taunt Anakin with Dun Moch. Guess what happens afterwards. In less than a minute, Anakin disposes Dooku. Wow, that sure isn't pwning, lol.

I'm sure for the millionth time everyone agrees Dooku is faster, but IT DOES NOT MATTER!!!!! In that case, ESB Luke defeats Vader because Luke is faster. It does not work like that.

That's bullshit and I'm not the only one who has said it. Ever since ROTS happened, it was evident to anyone Dooku did not have a fair fight. He was not expecting to die. He was not expecting to kill Anakin. He was double-teamed and had to expend energy to deal with two opponents. So, no, that argument does not work. Anakin did not defeat Dooku in any semblance of fairness.

Guess what, the double teamers are LESS DANGEROUS than if they were alone. And Dooku fought for his life against Anakin. When he is in that situation, HE HAS TO KILL otherwise HE IS DEAD!!!

Dude, Dooku replenished himself when he fights Anakin alone. He then manages to taunt Anakin with Dun Moch. Guess what happens afterwards. In less than a minute, Anakin disposes Dooku. Wow, that sure isn't pwning, lol.

Your own argument camp works against you. The script says Dooku and Obi-Wan were tired. So, no, he had to use effort to take out the double team. He did not take on Anakin with everything he had... as I've already said. He was tired from the 2-on-1 and he was not fighting for his life. So...yes, he was not battlign Anakin at 100%

Guess what, the double teamers are LESS DANGEROUS than if they were alone. And Dooku fought for his life against Anakin. When he is in that situation, HE HAS TO KILL otherwise HE IS DEAD!!!

Not stated in the script or movie. only in the novelization which is lower canon than the movie. Dooku was not to kill Anakin. Dooku was not fighting seriously for most of the fight and during the double-team. So, if he doesn't go into the fight with everything and doesn't expect to die should he lose (as Palpatine as promised him he will save him) then hos is that any way close to a fair fight?

Originally posted by Advent
So much bullshit fanboyism, I don't even want to begin.

He was defeated in [b]one on one combat, you dolt. And don't play that "f4tigu3" bullshit:

"He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away. "

Seems Dooku was completely revitalized before he faced Anakin one on one.

HOLD ON HERE.

Wrong again. He never thought Sidious would actually help him win the fight or anything. He thought that if he were to be bested, then Sidious would help. Now, it doesn't say that Dooku won't fight to the best of his ability, and it doesn't say he'll go easy. On the contrary actually, if you look below. Sidious only said that he'd manipulate it, so Dooku doesn't die, but Dooku had to fight as best as he could anyways.

He was there to give it his all against Anakin, LOE makes that clear.

"You will duel them," Sidious had said. "Kill Kenobi. His only purpose is to die and, in so doing, ignite young Skywalker to tap the depths of his fear and rage. Should you defeat Skywalker easily, then we will know that he is not prepared to serve us. Perhaps he never will be prepared. Should he by some fluke best you, however, I will control the outcome to spare you any unnecessary embarrassment, and we will have gained a powerful ally. But above all you must make the contest appear real, Lord Tyranus." "I will treat it as if it were my crowning achievement," Dooku had promised."

--Labryinth of Evil, Last Chapter.

Clearly Dooku was told to give it his all, and he himself promised he would "treat it as his crowning acheivement" in other words - "fight like he was dying".

And once Dooku realized that Anakin was about to kill him, and that Dooku couldn't contain him - he literally "fought for his life":

From my copy of the NEC, scanned just for you. The ROTS novelization also backs up the fact that Anakin was stronger than Dooku:

"Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste-the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life-are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck
before the ax. Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke."

This is stated directly after it says that Anakin realizes he can use his "fear as a weapon", and it says this because "It is that simple, and that complex. And it is final. Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail." Meaning that once Anakin realizes this, everything else is trivial because Dooku cannot win now. And note that this is said far before Dooku is actually dead.

"And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread. "

The one holding himself back is Anakin, btw, just so you don't try to pull some bullshit.

"in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell.
In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do.
Decide.
So he does.
He decides to win."

Anakin just decides to win, and he does. Oh, and Sidious himself admits that Anakin is stronger than Dooku, from the ROTS script/movie:

"DARTH SIDIOUS: His death was a necessary loss, which will ensure our victory. Soon I will have a new apprentice . . . one far younger and more powerful than Lord Tyranus."

Sorry, but that is bullshit. Anakin wasn't there to kill Dooku. He was there to capture him, that was made clear to the Jedi. Adding to the fact that if Anakin wanted Dooku dead, apparently all he has to is "decide":

"He decides that Dooku should lose the same hand he took. Decision is reality, here"

He decided to take Dooku's hand, not his life. And the ROTS novel elaborates that he wouldn't have killed Dooku had Palpatine not gave him "permission" (that's exactly how it's described) to do such.

We're not talking about Force powers, we're talking about saber abilities. Nice way to misdirect attention from the fact Anakin beat Dooku in saber combat, which is what we're debating about.

We're talking about lightsaber abilities for ROTS Dooku and ROTS Anakin. Dooku and Anakin fought with lightsabers in ROTS. Now, since we're discussing lightsaber skills - we can use ROTS as our evidence. Why? Because we're talking about the ROTS versions of these guys. You can't save Dooku, sorry.

However, comparing ROTS Anakin to ROTS Dooku would stand because Anakin beat Dooku in ROTS.

[Bail Organa] "And so it is..." [/Bail Organa] [/B]

Thank you Avent, your superb PROOF helped me out here as well....Nikky-poo...read what applies....Anakin pwned Dooku. FAIR AND SQUARE.

And to be clear, I dont think that Anakin can beat Yoda, I'm using that to show you that ABC arguments are bullshit and incorrect almost all the time, unless in an extreme case, i.e. "A padawan(presumably 15 or 16 years old) can beat a youngling(presumably 5 or 6 years old), Anakin can beat the padawan, Anakin can beat a youngling." In that type of extreme case, then yes its true, but when it comes to more equally leveled combatants, its completely irrelevant.

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
Guess what, the double teamers are LESS DANGEROUS than if they were alone. And Dooku fought for his life against Anakin. When he is in that situation, HE HAS TO KILL otherwise HE IS DEAD!!!

You have some good points Vos and I look forward to debating them later, but this one stood out to me. Dooku did not 'have' to kill anyone for Anakin was going to be a general in the new army once the war was over. And he wouldnt be dead because he was under the assumption that Sidious would step in if anything went wrong. I think that was pretty obviously shown in the movies by the look on Dooku's face when Sidioius said kill him.

no, he had that look cause he just realised what had happened...he was betrayed. Look above...And lets not get into to "levels of canon"...there are no levels, it either is or isnt. Either way, Dooku was pwned fair and square, and ABC logic isnt logical at all. Get over it people!!

but if you do want to go into levels of canon, then you cant get higher than GL's word...he says "In this instance Palpatine is testing Anakn to see if he's strong enough to become his apprentice, and he doesnt tell Dooku what he's actually up to. Dooku thinks that he's just going to fight him. But the whole thing is a set up by the emperor to test Anakin's stregth, and when Anakin is strong ebough, which he proves to be by killing Dooku, then the emperor is ready to convert him over to the darkside to become his new apprentice."

he doesn't say anything about Dooku going easy on him or holding back, or thinking that Palps would save him....he said Dooku doesnt know what he's up to, so even if you want to debate the levels of canon as far as scripts, novels, ect....nones higher than his word. So that settles that. If he beat him then, than he can certainly beat him after getting a better concept of the force and more control over it.