Darth Vader versus Darth Tyranus

Started by Advent64 pages

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
Vader:

- Force Choke/Crush
- Force Pull
- Force Push
- Force Wave
- Telekinesis
- Dissipate Energy
- Dun Moch
- Lightsaber w/The Force Talent

While Dooku has Lightning, Vader’s weakness, Vader can easily block it.

Firstly, everyone knows "telekinesis". Younglings can perform it, it's hardly a "Force power" that Dooku doesn't have as I'm positive every single Jedi ever trained knows telekinesis. Unless you expand upon the meaning (as plainly saying "telekinesis" is very vague), it's not something that can be added to his list.

Secondly, you put Vader blocking lightning twice, so I can only assume you mean he can block it with his hands (since you say "plus, he can use his saber"😉. This is impossible for him to do because the ROTS Visual Dictionary states that cannot successfully repel or summon Force lightning as it requires actual hands, not artificial ones. And of course, I'm only operating under the assumption you meant with his hands because you mentioned blocking lightning twice for - apparently - different situation. If not, then this really doesn't matter.

Firstly, everyone knows "telekinesis". Younglings can perform it, it's hardly a "Force power" that Dooku doesn't have as I'm positive every single Jedi ever trained knows telekinesis. Unless you expand upon the meaning (as plainly saying "telekinesis" is very vague), it's not something that can be added to his list.

What I meant was while fighting, Vader can acess the Force instead of sticking out his hand and saying "oh debris, come to me".

And I wasn't meaning hand Advent. I was saying he can block with saber or with a piece of debris.

Originally posted by ESB Vader
[B]he also mentioned that it was slow because the props are heavy and he already said the fighting was suppose to be faster, that old man vs machine thing, and no you get over it, vader is faster than you think, already his agility has been proven in rodv of taking 3 jedi at once or maybe 2 and taking on 7 jedi masters in the clone wars volume 9.

Lol, for the last time I agree that Vader is faster than most people think. What I am saying is that he is not as fast as Dooku. What has Vader shown us that puts him on the speed level of our Makashi Master. Nothing. In the EU he is fast, but that directly contradicts him in the movies (which are the highest canon). So we have to allow for some middle ground. You cannot say that Vader is as fast as he is in an EU novel when it is direclty contradicting higher canon.

your logic sucks, proof that because it is in the movie it is canon?

Holy f*ck. Please tell me you are kidding.The simple fact that it is in the movie makes it canon.

no offense rampant ox that is a truck load of shit, you just cant accept the fact that vader is fast,

I do accept Vader is fast. But again ill tell you he is not as fast as Dooku. I thought the simple fact that he is mostly machine would clear that issue up staright away.

there is something called the novel of the OT, where you imagine the fight,

More EU, and EU is not as high canon as the movies. You are trying to argue with what happens in the movies and it doesnt work. We do have to find some middleground, because Vader should be faster than what he is portrayed to be. But finding a novel which states he is x fast when the movie he is z fast you cant say that Vader is still z fast. Get what im saying?

your assumptions are full of shit, no offense prove to all of us that because the OT was slow, so that meant luke, vader, emperor palpatine, obi wan , yoda was slow.

Prove to you that they are slow? Sh*t, could it be because the movies back me up?

hell is yoda slow in the OT because at that time he was a puppet?

Yoda is slow in the OT! He is nearing death. you cant say that he is meant to be faster. That is your opinion and not what GL wanted. What GL wantd for SW is clearly depicted in the movies. There are no variations.

iam 100% sure if they put dooku in the OT and he was slow because the props are heavy you are going to do what i am doing, i will bet with you on this

Lol, thats because im a fanboy. But what im arguing now is fact, and you are being the fanboy disagreeing with them.

use common sense, do you think lucas wants to remake the OT? it would be a total disaster, look at sebastian shaw, the anakin skywalker spirit in rotj, lucas changed it to hayden and people get pissed off.

Whats your point?

look at the ROTS game, vader was fast, but slightly slower than anakin, are you going to say that it is not canon? o then it means that serra keto is a fake is it?

No, it means its canon to the point where it contradicts.

if vader was as slow as you claimed how the hell did he fend and killed two jedi knights in battle with form V and yet take on 7 jedi masters even though he nearly died? how the hell did he cut and kill a huge group of wookies? whom are fast creatures, how can a slow vader do all that, simple, he was fast, faster than you think, slightly slower than anakin but still fast, proof, rots game, crimson empire, rodv and he even killed beasts with his bare hands,
you got owned again rampant

I hardly got owned. Those are some mighty fine accomplishments on Vaders part. But again you are trying to pass of Vader as being as fast as he is in EU without looking at the movies.

And Dooku was able to make that crane fall on Obi-Wan and Anakin with one hand after he ended the fight with Yoda. So, I really don't think you can argue Vader's control of The Force in manipulating the envioronment is greather than Dooku's We don't even have a set arena for this fight, so arguign Vader can just yank something tin front of him to block the lightning is folly.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Lol, for the last time I agree that Vader is faster than most people think. What I am saying is that he is not as fast as Dooku. What has Vader shown us that puts him on the speed level of our Makashi Master. Nothing. In the EU he is fast, but that directly contradicts him in the movies (which are the highest canon). So we have to allow for some middle ground. You cannot say that Vader is as fast as he is in an EU novel when it is direclty contradicting higher canon.

o is it? and proof of this? no proof? shut up so is LOTF LUKE SKYWALKER slow because he was slow in the movis? you cant prove that the slowness even if its in the movies, you cant, shut up

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Holy f*ck. Please tell me you are kidding.The simple fact that it is in the movie makes it canon. [/B]

holy Fu*k but wasnt vader fast in the EU? it DOES not contradict with the movies, if it did do you have any idea how much trouble there will be?

Originally posted by Rampant ox
I do accept Vader is fast. But again ill tell you he is not as fast as Dooku. I thought the simple fact that he is mostly machine would clear that issue up staright away.[/B]

and here you contradict yourself, you said vader is slow because the movies say so, you cant prove that as i say even if its in the movie, like i said fanbrat, there is something called the novel where you IMAGINE the fight, and in the novel, it is ALOT faster than in the movies and lucas ACCEPTED IT now shut up

Originally posted by Rampant ox
More EU, and EU is not as high canon as the movies. You are trying to argue with what happens in the movies and it doesnt work. We do have to find some middleground, because Vader should be faster than what he is portrayed to be. But finding a novel which states he is x fast when the movie he is z fast you cant say that Vader is still z fast. Get what im saying?[/B]
no i dont, you dont want to accept vader is fast, faster than alot of people

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Prove to you that they are slow? Sh*t, could it be because the movies back me up?[/B]
the novels? the EU? thats 20 books against your word, even GLs OWN statement stated that he made a mistake, at that time he DID NOT have an idea of a fast fight, there goes your stupid assumptions again

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Yoda is slow in the OT! He is nearing death. you cant say that he is meant to be faster. That is your opinion and not what GL wanted. What GL wantd for SW is clearly depicted in the movies. There are no variations.
[/B]
yes there is, puppet yoda and CG yoda, theres a variation.
and so, because its in the movies, is yodas head pointy? because epv said so? and it contradicts with ep2 and 3? where he is cg where he looks differet?

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Lol, thats because im a fanboy. But what im arguing now is fact, and you are being the fanboy disagreeing with them.
[/B]

yea you are a fanboy,

Originally posted by Rampant ox
No, it means its canon to the point where it contradicts.
[/B]

yes and you contradict yourself many times

Originally posted by Rampant ox
I hardly got owned. Those are some mighty fine accomplishments on Vaders part. But again you are trying to pass of Vader as being as fast as he is in EU without looking at the movies. [/B]

actually you got your ass handed to you but you just cant accept it, and the movies are 3 times, the OT the EU is dozens of books, if GL aint happy with vader being fast, then he WOULD have done something. there you go, now fanbrat, accept it, you lost again

and this fight is on tatooine, vader would blind dooku with sand then chop him, o and vader has 20 years of DS experience and dooku has like only what? 13? vader has a wider range or DS powers, and advent, vader used the force thing to block han solos bolts i dont see why he cant block lightning with that, yoda used that to block a yinchoris blast and used that to block lightning, no difference i think

and about saber forms? vader has knowledge on makashi, mastered form v to its finest, so? he owns dooku in saber conbat, makashi cant fight up to shien, ROTS novel proved this

Originally posted by Nikkolas
You're right. If Luke was pissed off and fought Obi-Wan like that or yoda like that, he would over totally destroyed them. his amazing ability in Form Lightsaber Bat enpowered by the dark side allowed him to beat Vadr and would thus work on any other fighter in the universe. He pissed off Luke yes but a pissed off Luke was completely ridiculous in how he wielded a saber. If Luke was doing that type of fighting to Dooku, you think he'd be able to knock Dooku back as bad as he did Vader?

Becaue Anakin was stupid.

that is because the fight was not good, lucas as i said did not have an idea of a bad ass fight, he only thought like those medieval type of classical fights

I don't care what crap the Nikolas/Rampant duo conjures up, just read the Arguments For Darth Vader, See the picture of Vader vs. Dark Woman, and read ESB's posts. It seems you guys are getting owned.

Yes, despite being owned I have yet to see nothing but excuses for why Vader lost to a novice Luke. A novice Luke being angry and swinging his blade in a frenzied manner, merely slamming it against' Vader. Vader could do nothing but defend against that and eventually was at Luke's mercy. You are telling me such a way of fighting in saber combat could defeat any PT Jedi or Sith? Let's just image Luke, slamming his blade and swinging it like a frickin' baseball bat, fight Yoda, Dooku, Mace or Sidious and even last 10 seconds. Yet, Vader was beaten back by this. Once I get any solid response to this instead of excuses, I'll be ownt.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Yes, despite being owned I have yet to see nothing but excuses for why Vader lost to a novice Luke. A novice Luke being angry and swinging his blade in a frenzied manner, merely slamming it against' Vader. Vader could do nothing but defend against that and eventually was at Luke's mercy. You are telling me such a way of fighting in saber combat could defeat any PT Jedi or Sith? Let's just image Luke, slamming his blade and swinging it like a frickin' baseball bat, fight Yoda, Dooku, Mace or Sidious and even last 10 seconds. Yet, Vader was beaten back by this. Once I get any solid response to this instead of excuses, I'll be ownt.

and now i am going to hand you your ass,

number1) the emperor commanded vader not to hurt luke but instead lure him to the dark side,

number2) vader wouldnt kill his own son

number3)vader underestimated him because he has beat him before, in terms of saber combat luke is still the same as he was in ESB only his force powers grew

number4) vader panicked when he pissed luke off, remember luke owning him and vader kept walking back wards?

number5) vader was emotional, he is closer to being anakin skywalker rather than darth vader, proof of this is when he didnt want to kill his officer in the end of ESB after he falcon escapes

number6) in the rotj duel, vader was not angry, the real battle was in him, the conflict of vader and anakin, luke said "i sense the good in you, the conflict"

there you go,

and the saber combat? luke was using form v, it looked like crap becuase as i for the last time will say that lucas did not have the idea of a bad ass fast duel

.

and now i am going to hand you your ass,

I’m sure.

[/quote]number1) the emperor commanded vader not to hurt luke but instead lure him to the dark side,[/quote]

And luring him to the dark side entails getting beaten? I doubt Vader, who was planning on betraying the Emperor, had any intention of luring Luke to the dark side at the cost of his own life and Vader was clearly in Luke’s mercy.

number2) vader wouldnt kill his own son

Again, that does not mean anything. He was not on the offense at all. He was beaten back and beaten down. Just because you’re not out to kill your opponent doesn’t mean that your opponent beats you.

number3)vader underestimated him because he has beat him before, in terms of saber combat luke is still the same as he was in ESB only his force powers grew

Yes, I can see how Vader was taken by surprised at Luke being a moron and losing any form of lightsaber training he had.

number4) vader panicked when he pissed luke off, remember luke owning him and vader kept walking back wards?

Yep. He was on the retreat and the defensive and was getting beaten solidly by a Luke who was doing nothing more with his blade except swinging it nearly at random to hit Vader’s own. Vader was beaten by that.

number5) vader was emotional, he is closer to being anakin skywalker rather than darth vader, proof of this is when he didnt want to kill his officer in the end of ESB after he falcon escapes

So, his emotions have to do with him being overtaken in a fight? He was doing quite well up until now in battling Luke. He just suddenly was struck with emotion as Luke attacked him?

number6) in the rotj duel, vader was not angry, the real battle was in him, the conflict of vader and anakin, luke said "i sense the good in you, the conflict"

Yep. The conflict that allowed him to taunt Luke about twisting his sister. The conflict that allowed him to watch as Luke was tormented at watching his friends die. He was really struggling with his emotions.

and the saber combat? luke was using form v, it looked like crap becuase as i for the last time will say that lucas did not have the idea of a bad ass fast duel

Whatever Lucas wanted to do is unimportant. What was doen was Luke using his saber like a moron.

Originally posted by ESB Vader
o is it? and proof of this? no proof? shut up so is LOTF LUKE SKYWALKER slow because he was slow in the movis? you cant prove that the slowness even if its in the movies, you cant, shut up

What. I barely understand what you are trying to say. Punctuation my friend. In the movies vader is slow. Agree? The movies are the highest form of canon (bar GL). Agree? So wtf are you trying to argue. What we see in the movies is what was meant to happen. Dont argue with the movies because you are not getting anywhere. But you do have a strong case in terms of EU. Unfortunatley the EU is directly contradicting the speed of Vader in the movies. We have to allow some middle ground in terms of bad choreography but we can not say that Vader is as fast as in EU.

holy Fu*k but wasnt vader fast in the EU? it DOES not contradict with the movies, if it did do you have any idea how much trouble there will be?

The storyline doesnt contradict but the speed of Vader does. Vader is not as fast as in EU because it is contradicting the movies. I will say again that Vader probably should be faster than in the movies and we should allow for a small aount of middle ground. But please dont try and use the pointless argument of vader being as fast as in Crimson Empire etc, because your argument collapases when we look at the movies.

and here you contradict yourself, you said vader is slow because the movies say so,

Are you disagreeing? Are you saying that because you think that Vader should be faster, that the movies are wrong? Give me a break.

there is something called the novel where you IMAGINE the fight, and in the novel, it is ALOT faster than in the movies and lucas ACCEPTED IT

Sorry to dissapoint you my friend but the movies are higher canon than the novel. In the novel I can 'imagine' vader doing 12 backflips and wielding two double bladed lightsabers. Doesnt mean its going to happen and it directly contradicts what we see in the movies. The movies are GL's vision, and GL is SW. You cant argue that.

now shut up

Wow. Thats the comeback of the century. 🙄

no i dont, you dont want to accept vader is fast, faster than alot of people

Honestly, how many times do I have to say that I agree with this? But the keyword is alot. Not everyone. And Dooku is not in this 'alot' category. Dooku is faster than our robot friend with 4 metal limbs and a life support system.

the novels? the EU? thats 20 books against your word, even GLs OWN statement stated that he made a mistake, at that time he DID NOT have an idea of a fast fight,

Can I please hear GL's statement saying he made a mistake. Because I think yopu are either a) posting bullsh*t b) misenterpreting it or c) taking it out of context.

there goes your stupid assumptions again

Wow, another great comeback. Ive pwned each of your arguments thus far. I have the movies backing me up. Yet you still think they are stupid assumptions? 🙄

yes there is, puppet yoda and CG yoda, theres a variation.
and so, because its in the movies, is yodas head pointy? because epv said so? and it contradicts with ep2 and 3? where he is cg where he looks differet?

Now give me an honest answer, wtf does this have to do with anything. Somehow we have got from talking about Vader to the shape of Yoda's head.

yea you are a fanboy,

Lol, yet another comeback which is really not offensive, not helping your argument and not showing your intellect. I am a fanboy, but this time I have fact behind me. You ESB Vader (I highlight your name to show that you are being a bit hypocritical) are being the fanboy by directly going against the movies.

actually you got your ass handed to you

Lol 🙄

but you just cant accept it, and the movies are 3 times, the OT the EU is dozens of books, if GL aint happy with vader being fast, then he WOULD have done something.

So wtf are you saying now? That EU overrules the movies? I think you better go and read up on canon. The EU is not as important as the movies and probably never will be. GL has very little to do with EU, he doesnt write it he merely gives the OK. He is not going to go out and change all the speed levels of all the characters in EU. Because it doesnt matter and it is for entertainment. If he did do that we would have a very different CW series.

there you go, now fanbrat, accept it, you lost again

Now now, is it so difficult to keep a civil tongue? I have said nothing of any offensive nature towards you this whole argument yet because your arguments get pwned you think you have the right to insult me? My friend, a few manners go a long way.

Now to finish this speed argument off once and for all. Here is an exert from the script of ANH, from when Vader and Ben were fighting.Ben makes a sudden lunge at the huge warrior but is checked by a lightning movement of The Sith.. A bit further on Ben manages to deflect the blow and swiftly turns around. I have highlighted the bits of interest. They were fighting fast according to the script (which im not sure but I think is higher canon than EU). If what we saw in ANH was 'lightning movements' then i hate to think what Dooku would do to them.

I have no ultimate opinion on the winner as of now (I really don't care), but there's several things flawed in your points, ESB.

Originally posted by ESB Vader
and this fight is on tatooine, vader would blind dooku with sand then chop him,

This has got to be the most ridiculous thing said up to this point. I could just as easily say by some type of rare, freakish chance lightning strikes on Tatooine and goes straight for Vader's suit as it's metal, and thus dies instantly. It's basic demonstrating absurdity by being absurd. The aforementioned outcome would not happen (or rather not be accepted).

o and vader has 20 years of DS experience and dooku has like only what? 13? vader has a wider range or DS powers,

And Dooku has about 70+ years of experience as a Force user. Your point? Seven years isn't that much difference when you consider Dooku years of more general experience. And he hardly has a wider array of Force powers, a few simple more demonstrated (Dooku used Force grip on Kenobi, so it's ridiculous to assume he doesn't know Force choke). Dooku has Force lightning, the weakness of Vader. So, he hardly has more (that would be useful).

and advent, vader used the force thing to block han solos bolts i dont see why he cant block lightning with that, yoda used that to block a yinchoris blast and used that to block lightning, no difference i think

That'd be illogical to claim such. You'd be saying because Vader can block blaster bolts, he can block Force lightning. I mean, despite the fact that the ROTS Visual Dictionary states that Vader cannot successfully repel (or conjur) Force lightning as it requires living hands to do so.

It's a simple case to make. The nature of the two attacks are not the same, ergo we cannot say "since he blocked attack X, he can block Y". They have different properties, unless a blaster bolt has the same characteristics as Force lightning.

(Hint: It doesn't.)

he owns dooku in saber conbat, makashi cant fight up to shien, ROTS novel proved this

1.) Makashi cannot generate enough kinetic energy to meet Djem So head on (key).

2.) By no means is Makashi incapable of actually "fighting up" (WTF?) to Djem So. This is proven by the fact the Star Wars Insider article in Issue 62 says that Vaapad is "more open and kinetic than Form V". Now, this alone isn't enough to prove the case, but we all know Sora Bulq was a fine Vaapad master yet he was tooled by Dooku.

So it's not as if Makashi is utterly useless against Djem So. At least Dooku's prowess of Makashi. Though, I will say Vader still has the form advantage over Dooku, but it's not as if he'll just win like that as you are apparently implying.

Originally posted by ESB Vader
number1) the emperor commanded vader not to hurt luke but instead lure him to the dark side,

number2) vader wouldnt kill his own son

According to the novelizations in which you are so fond of, you are wrong. Following this point on, expect nothing but quotes and simple sentences:

"This accusation really made Vader angry. He could tolerate much from the insolent child, but this was insufferable. He must teach this boy a lesson he would never forget, or die learning."

"His anger was layered, now - he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight...then he could do that, too."

You were saying?

number3)vader underestimated him because he has beat him before, in terms of saber combat luke is still the same as he was in ESB only his force powers grew

Prove this statement. Actually, no. Logically speaking this is wrong by pure nature. To assume ROTJ Luke didn't grow in dueling ability is ridiculous because he faired far better in ESB than in ROTJ (even before he started attacking like a madman), and hell, he went to train with Yoda longer. Also:

"Vader watched Luke. His boy was powerful, stronger than he'd imagined. "

"Vader was impressed with Luke's speed. Pleased, even."

Maybe he underestimated him in the very beginning, afterwards he did not. He even goes so far as to gauge his skills. So this is out the window.

number4) vader panicked when he pissed luke off, remember luke owning him and vader kept walking back wards?

How can you call it "panicked"? This isn't necessarily wrong, but the choice of words seem to imply that Vader walked backwards on purpose (well, you did say that, lol). According to both the novelization and script he was forced back:

"Blow upon blow, Luke forced Vader to retreat - back, onto the bridge that crossed the vast, seemingly bottomless shaft to the power core. Each stroke of Luke's saber pummeled Vader, like accusations, like screams, like shards of hate. The Dark Lord was driven to his knees. He raised his blade to block yet another onslaught - and Luke slashed Vader's right hand off at the wrist. '

The script also near exactly described this same event. Of course, as I already said, the way you chose to type that sentence seems a little different. I just want to make it clear.

number6) in the rotj duel, vader was not angry, the real battle was in him, the conflict of vader and anakin, luke said "i sense the good in you, the conflict"

Actually, Vader did get very angry during the duel as you can see by the first quotes I provided; although he did simmer down eventually.

Keep in mind, though, I'm not arguing Dooku > Vader, so do not treat my response as such (with things like, "z0mg vad3r k1lls d0o0oku wit 1 hand!!//ONELEVEN111!!/"😉, because quite frankly, I don't care.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
What. I barely understand what you are trying to say. Punctuation my friend. In the movies vader is slow. Agree? The movies are the highest form of canon (bar GL). Agree? So wtf are you trying to argue. What we see in the movies is what was meant to happen. Dont argue with the movies because you are not getting anywhere. But you do have a strong case in terms of EU. Unfortunatley the EU is directly contradicting the speed of Vader in the movies. We have to allow some middle ground in terms of bad choreography but we can not say that Vader is as fast as in EU./B]
i argue with the movies? no, im argueing with a fanboy who cant accept the fact that vader is fast, i didnt say faster than dooku, you are argueing with canon, vader being fast fighting the dark woman, vader taking on 7 jedi masters, vader carving through an army of wookies in rodv, vader being agile in crimson empire, theres your proof fanbrat. no this is not a come back. ok then what if dooku had been put in the OT he would have been fighting slow as well am i correct?

Originally posted by Rampant ox
The storyline doesnt contradict but the speed of Vader does. Vader is not as fast as in EU because it is contradicting the movies. I will say again that Vader probably should be faster than in the movies and we should allow for a small aount of middle ground. But please dont try and use the pointless argument of vader being as fast as in Crimson Empire etc, because your argument collapases when we look at the movies.
/B]
that still is not hard enough, not concrete to prove that vader is slow. if the story doesnt contradict then why does vaders speed do? again you fail to prove to any one that it is canon

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Are you disagreeing? Are you saying that because you think that Vader should be faster, that the movies are wrong? Give me a break.
/B]

i dont "think" i make sure what i say is true, and the proof is in the books, even vader vs maul, vader was fast

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Sorry to dissapoint you my friend but the movies are higher canon than the novel. In the novel I can 'imagine' vader doing 12 backflips and wielding two double bladed lightsabers. Doesnt mean its going to happen and it directly contradicts what we see in the movies. The movies are GL's vision, and GL is SW. You cant argue that./B]

yes and SW is all about imagining it, and as i said GL didnt have the idea of a fast dueling fight at the time of the OT because number one, they dont have the equipment like in the ROTS set to do jumps, back flips, summersaults this and that, again there goes your arguements

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Honestly, how many times do I have to say that I agree with this? But the keyword is alot. Not everyone. And Dooku is not in this 'alot' category. Dooku is faster than our robot friend with 4 metal limbs and a life support system./B]

i do not deny that

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Can I please hear GL's statement saying he made a mistake. Because I think yopu are either a) posting bullsh*t b) misenterpreting it or c) taking it out of context./B]

o? in the TPM dvd? when he said "at that time i didnt come up with a fast fight? now im going to show the audience how the jedi and sith really fight"

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Wow, another great comeback. Ive pwned each of your arguments thus far. I have the movies backing me up. Yet you still think they are stupid assumptions? 🙄/B]

pwned my arguements? aparrantly not, its the other way around, i pwned yours, i gave you evidense, you gave fanboyism

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Now give me an honest answer, wtf does this have to do with anything. Somehow we have got from talking about Vader to the shape of Yoda's head./B]
because you said what appeared in the movie is canon? lmfao

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Lol, yet another comeback which is really not offensive, not helping your argument and not showing your intellect. I am a fanboy, but this time I have fact behind me. You [b]ESB Vader
(I highlight your name to show that you are being a bit hypocritical) are being the fanboy by directly going against the movies./B]
going against the movies? o hell no im with the facts, you by the way, dont read anything about vader in the comics and assume he is a stupid old man who is weak

Originally posted by Rampant ox
So wtf are you saying now? That EU overrules the movies? I think you better go and read up on canon. The EU is not as important as the movies and probably never will be. GL has very little to do with EU, he doesnt write it he merely gives the OK. He is not going to go out and change all the speed levels of all the characters in EU. Because it doesnt matter and it is for entertainment. If he did do that we would have a very different CW series.
/B]

did i say it overrules the movies? well heres something for you to answer, is DE palpatine weaker than ROTS palpatine because the movie or the novel said "yoda could not stop the most powerful sith lord in history"? asnwer that, partly yes partly no, so is luke still weak because he looked like a punk in rotj and still is by lotf?

Originally posted by Rampant ox

Now now, is it so difficult to keep a civil tongue? I have said nothing of any offensive nature towards you this whole argument yet because your arguments get pwned you think you have the right to insult me? My friend, a few manners go a long way.
/B]


your arguements pwned mine? im sorry but that didnt happen,

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Now to finish this speed argument off once and for all. Here is an exert from the script of ANH, from when Vader and Ben were fighting.Ben makes a sudden lunge at the huge warrior but is checked by a lightning movement of The Sith.. A bit further on Ben manages to deflect the blow and swiftly turns around. I have highlighted the bits of interest. They were fighting fast according to the script (which im not sure but I think is higher canon than EU). If what we saw in ANH was 'lightning movements' then i hate to think what Dooku would do to them. [/B]
and this quote breaks your own arguements, how? because there is something called the imagination and as i have said earlier they didnt have the equipment nor the tools to do such stunts.

nikko that is because it was part of the emperors plan for vader to fall and luke to kill him

and advent thanks for correcting me

sry for double post but read this, it came from a few sources

In his mechanical life-support suit, it would be difficult to engage in the energetic acrobatics of Ataru. For the remainder of his life, he would maintain his mastery of Form V Djem So and Shien. Vader then introduced more elements from Form III Soresu and Form IV Ataru swordplay into his customized style, as witnessed by Jedi Master Roan Shryne when Bol Chatak dueled with the Dark Lord. It was noted that he would often employ powerful vertical strikes to wear an opponent down.

Taking the proper lessons from his loss to Kenobi, he apparently learned how to control his emotions when in combat, finding a way to call upon the power of the dark side while not being blinded by emotions run amok.

Around 3.5 ABY, Vader had ordered ASP-19 droids, lightsaber combat droids based off the ASP-series droid, produced to fight him in sparring matches. They were faster and stronger than an ordinary man, and programmed with the knowledge of of a hundred sword masters and a dozen fighting styles. Vader defeated them time and again, and ordered a new, improved batch of them. They were getting too easy to defeat, even in a two-on-one match.

Vader's son, Luke was able to hold up against the Dark Lord for some time on Bespin. Onboard the second Death Star, Luke mirrored Darth Vader's own Form V technique and responded with his own furious demonstration of Form V's raw power. The sudden increase in his son's power caught Vader off guard and overwhelmed the Dark Lord. Finally, Luke was able to duel Vader on an even footing, and defeated the experienced Dark Lord.

this proves he isnt slow and this shows how luke beat vader

and advent i said 20 years of dark side experience, he choked some one a hell long distance away, and vader featured crush in ROTS, Wave in eaw and has other powers cept for lighting

Originally posted by Nikkolas

Becaue Anakin was stupid.

irrelavent. I just disproved your A>B>C theory and all you can say is "Because Anakin was stupid."
It doesnt matter how he lost...he lost. Thats like saying, "Oh the only reason Dooku lost is because anakin was better."...well, exactly. In this case, OB1 was better...not more powerful, but better. He was conflicted with emotions, this was his best friend, but he was BETTER at controlling them. He beat Maul cause Maul was "stupid"...Maul was a more powerful fighter, but on that day, OB1 was better. Not in skill or force ability, but because he gathered his emotions back to the lightside, and(with being lucky) did a BETTER job at killing his opponent, before he was killed himself.

No more ABC's, 123's...we aint the Jackson 5 in this b!tch!!!😛

Originally posted by ESB Vader
i argue with the movies? no, im argueing with a fanboy who cant accept the fact that vader is fast,

You have got to be f*ckin kidding me. Here, ill go back and find all my posts that show that im agreeing with this statement:

Originally posted by Rampant ox
However I do agree that Vader is alot faster than people make him out to be - just not as fast as Dooku".

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Lol, I do agree with you that Vader is fast, alot faster than people give him credit for. But still not as fast as Tyrannus.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Lol, for the last time I agree that Vader is faster than most people think. What I am saying is that he is not as fast as Dooku.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
I do accept Vader is fast. But again ill tell you he is not as fast as Dooku. I thought the simple fact that he is mostly machine would clear that issue up staright away.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Honestly, how many times do I have to say that I agree with this? But the keyword is alot. Not everyone. And Dooku is not in this 'alot' category. Dooku is faster than our robot friend with 4 metal limbs and a life support system.

Now, as you can clearly see I agree that Vader is fast. Not extremely fast like in EU but probably not as slow as the movies. However Dooku is faster. Without spouting a whole heap of bullsh*t tell me, do you agree with this?

you are argueing with canon,

No, I am arguing against EU, you are arguing against the movies. Another words you are fighting a losing battle.

vader being fast fighting the dark woman, vader taking on 7 jedi masters, vader carving through an army of wookies in rodv, vader being agile in crimson empire, theres your proof fanbrat.

Im sorry, I wasnt aware we were starting feat wars. And must you end with 'fanbrat'. I havent called you a fanboy/brat once this debate when clearly you are being biased towards Vader.

that still is not hard enough, not concrete to prove that vader is slow. if the story doesnt contradict then why does vaders speed do? again you fail to prove to any one that it is canon

God, this is ridiculous. Vader is fast in the EU, correct? Vader is slow in the movies, correct? Now if you cant see that that is contradictory then you arent as smart as I thought. Movies are higher canon so they take priority.

i dont "think" i make sure what i say is true, and the proof is in the books, even vader vs maul, vader was fast

My proof is in the movies which again is higher canon. You are trying to win this argument using EU and thats not going to work. The important thing here is that the EU is not canonical as far as George Lucas' Star Wars plot- the films- are concerned

o? in the TPM dvd? when he said "at that time i didnt come up with a fast fight? now im going to show the audience how the jedi and sith really fight"

But he didnt say that the OT was intentionally slow. He didnt say that Vader, Kenobi and Luke could have been faster.

pwned my arguements? aparrantly not, its the other way around, i pwned yours, i gave you evidense, you gave fanboyism

LOL. I gave you exerts from the script and have had the movies backing me the whole time. You are trying to beat me with useless EU facts. Not going to work my friend.

because you said what appeared in the movie is canon? lmfao

W......T....F. You are joking right? Are you now trying to say the films arent canon? LOL

going against the movies? o hell no im with the facts, you by the way, dont read anything about vader in the comics and assume he is a stupid old man who is weak

Read my first point.

did i say it overrules the movies? well heres something for you to answer, is DE palpatine weaker than ROTS palpatine because the movie or the novel said "yoda could not stop the most powerful sith lord in history"? asnwer that, partly yes partly no, so is luke still weak because he looked like a punk in rotj and still is by lotf?

What are you trying to say? You are referring to EU after the OT. The characters can get as strong as they want then becuase they wouldnt be contradicting

and this quote breaks your own arguements, how? because there is something called the imagination and as i have said earlier they didnt have the equipment nor the tools to do such stunts.

But that doesnt make the movies any less canon now does it? That doesnt mean the movies are wrong now does it?

irrelavent. I just disproved your A>B>C theory and all you can say is "Because Anakin was stupid."
It doesnt matter how he lost...he lost. Thats like saying, "Oh the only reason Dooku lost is because anakin was better."...well, exactly. In this case, OB1 was better...not more powerful, but better.

You are the one who is being unreasonable. The argument I presented was to prove Dooku's speriority in battle. Superiority in battle in terms of sabers, The Force and prowise. You are giving me Obi-Wan beating Anakin which is not an example of any of those. It is an example of Anakin's own stupidity and arrogance. I present to you that Dooku stalemated Yoda in sabers and thoroughly bested Anakin & Obi-Wan at the start of the ROTS fight. An example of what you're postulating is saying Dooku beat Anakin just because he shot him with Force lightning. See? That alone does not demonstrate Dooku's superiority in battle. It demonstrates Anakin lost due to being overconfident. Now, Dooku besting Anakin in sabers later on proves Dooku is superior to him. See how that works? When you win a fight with superiority in sabers and The Force, the A>B>C rule applies. Obi-Wan won through Anakin's moronic move, not superiority.

Besides, A>B>C does as much to demonstrate power and technique as it does to show one person is better than another. For instance, Dooku went rounds with yoda, correct? That shows his high ability. I do not claim the fact he did this as the end to all debate. I merely point to it as an accomplishment Vader could not mimic.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
You have got to be f*ckin kidding me. Here, ill go back and find all my posts that show that im agreeing with this statement:

agreed then

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Now, as you can clearly see I agree t[hat Vader is fast. Not extremely fast like in EU but probably not as slow as the movies. However Dooku is faster. Without spouting a whole heap of bullsh*t tell me, do you agree with this?
[/B]
i already said i dont deny dooku being faster

Originally posted by Rampant ox
No, I am arguing against EU, you are arguing against the movies. Another words you are fighting a losing battle.
[/B]
well in the OT we only see the battle thrice, none of which vader fights at his max, and sorry if i called you those names, was too heated up but in the EU thats where vader fights at his full power, agreeable?

Originally posted by Rampant ox

Im sorry, I wasnt aware we were starting feat wars. And must you end with 'fanbrat'. I havent called you a fanboy/brat once this debate when clearly you are being biased towards Vader.[/B]

i apologise for that

Originally posted by Rampant ox
God, this is ridiculous. Vader is fast in the EU, correct? Vader is slow in the movies, correct? Now if you cant see that that is contradictory then you arent as smart as I thought. Movies are higher canon so they take priority.
[/B]
not really i dont see any contradiction, it was the way that it was being acted out, i said a 100 times they didnt have the equipment to do those stunts, its unfair to judge vader is slow because of the way they acted it out 30 years ago,

Originally posted by Rampant ox
My proof is in the movies which again is higher canon. You are trying to win this argument using EU and thats not going to work. The important thing here is that the EU is not canonical as far as George Lucas' Star Wars plot- the films- are concerned
[/B]
higher canon? o then DE LOTF NJO RODV are all bull shit, is that what you are saying? apparently as i said, vader has never fought at his full power in the OT, we couldnt see it in ANH because that was the first fight ever, the props were heavy, they didnt have the equipment to do stunts like in the PT and lucas words saying in the tpm dvd "at that time i didnt show how the jedi really fight" and that refers to obi wan

Originally posted by Rampant ox
But he didnt say that the OT was intentionally slow. He didnt say that Vader, Kenobi and Luke could have been faster. [/B]

and neither did he say they could have been slower

Originally posted by Rampant ox
LOL. I gave you exerts from the script and have had the movies backing me the whole time. You are trying to beat me with useless EU facts. Not going to work my friend.[/B]
useless EU facts? lol you must be a EU hater, firstly the EU is not useless because books FROM lucasarts published the NEC, dark horse publishes comics, all are canon and lucas allowed his SW universe to be expanded and that quote i ripped from a source? how the hell can he be so slow in the movies to beat droids who have a knowledge of 100 jedi swordsman and know all the saber styles?

Originally posted by Rampant ox
W......T....F. You are joking right? Are you now trying to say the films arent canon? LOL [/B]
dont feed me with words, i didnt say the films arent canon

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Read my first point.
[/B]

done that already and your evidence arent concrete enough

Originally posted by Rampant ox
What are you trying to say? You are referring to EU after the OT. The characters can get as strong as they want then becuase they wouldnt be contradicting
[/B]
would that be any different from vader being slower? you said it would contradict the movies didnt you? you are another vader hater who judges vader from the movies, point moot. prove that vader is slow, iwant to see cold hard evidence, we have 20 books showing vader is faster than you think and not slow in the movies, already it has been said a million times and i will keep saying it, the props are heavy, they dont have the equipment to do stunts, they dont have good CG

Originally posted by Rampant ox

But that doesnt make the movies any less canon now does it? That doesnt mean the movies are wrong now does it? [/B]

o? did i say the movies are wrong? did i?

sry for double post

heres this, his "slowness" in the movies do not represent form V in any way at all, i will keep saying this, EU does no come into conflict with the movies, prove that it does, if it did, someone like leeland chee would make a statement, and so far he didnt, that means there is no contradiction, like in the NEC when there was, leland made a statement! so? that proves that EU does not collide with the movies, so because the movie or novel said ROTS sidious is the most powerful sith does that mean he is? what about revan, exar kun, DE palpatine, FPA, so? EU is EU it does not come in contradiction in any way with the movies, it is still factual, it is still canon,

you said EU facts are useless, hmm so explain how the whole galaxy knew about darth vader? in rots no1 knew who the hell he was, and it was explained in RODV there goes your assumptions again, does it contradict with the movies? ithink not

facts are facts, and you cant prove that movie has a higher canon, canon is canon, facts are facts, show me an exact quote which states that movie canon is higher than EU canon, because we see it? so? we also see jedi academy motion, kotor motion, it is also considered part movie part game? o what if it is not from GL? does it mean its bull shit, if GL says it is then yea so be it but he didnt

heres to prove that vader isnt slow like the movies, it came from vader the ultimate guide, CANONplease look at it, if vader was as slow as u think he is in the movies he would have been killed takes a while to load http://www.starwars.com/community/fanclub/mag/news20050711.html look for vader fighting the dude with 2 sabers

Originally posted by ESB Vader
agreed then

Great. So there needs not be any more debate on this particualr matter.

and sorry if i called you those names, was too heated up but in the EU thats where vader fights at his full power, agreeable?

Lol, its all good 😄 . And I guess I can agree that vader fights his best in the EU. but loking at those exerts from the ROTJ novel Advent created it looks like Vader was fighting his hardest in the movie also - even though he was on the losing end.

not really i dont see any contradiction, it was the way that it was being acted out, i said a 100 times they didnt have the equipment to do those stunts, its unfair to judge vader is slow because of the way they acted it out 30 years ago,

Lol, we have different views and that is fine. we have agreed that Dooku is faster so its irrelevant now.

higher canon? o then DE LOTF NJO RODV are all bull shit, is that what you are saying?

Of course not. EU means Expanded Universe, those parts of the Star Wars franchise that were not directly created by George Lucas himself- that is, the books, the computer games, technical manuals, encyclopedias etc. The important thing here is that the EU is not canonical as far as George Lucas' Star Wars plot- the films- are concerned Put simply the movies are the highest form of canon except GL himself.

useless EU facts? lol you must be a EU hater, firstly the EU is not useless because books FROM lucasarts published the NEC, dark horse publishes comics, all are canon and lucas allowed his SW universe to be expanded and that quote i ripped from a source? how the hell can he be so slow in the movies to beat droids who have a knowledge of 100 jedi swordsman and know all the saber styles?
would that be any different from vader being slower? you said it would contradict the movies didnt you? you are another vader hater who judges vader from the movies, point moot. prove that vader is slow, iwant to see cold hard evidence, we have 20 books showing vader is faster than you think and not slow in the movies, already it has been said a million times and i will keep saying it, the props are heavy, they dont have the equipment to do stunts, they dont have good CG

Lol, didnt we just clear this issue up. Dooku is faster. Vader is certainly not slow but simply not as fast.

yea but are we going to ignore EU? hell i loved it when dooku goes to korriban with his budler quinlon vos to retrieve darth andeddus crystal.
if you are so going to restrict vader to movie stuff then dooku wins but now since theres the EU people now agree vader is not a dip sh!t like he is in the movies.

last thing when i say fast i didnt say faster than dooku, he has metal legs,