Darth Vader versus Darth Tyranus

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Don’t be a childish dick. For one, script > novelization. Second, read the novelization witha bit less bias. Notice certain things such as Dooku pinning Anakin against the wall with a table. Had he not been fighting Obi-Wan, he could have battered Anakinw ith more Force powers. On top of that, it mentions more than once how he bats both Kenobi and Anakin away but is then immediately attacked by the other. Your entire argument collapses because the fact is [B]THAT IS WAS 2-ON-1. Get that through your head. A “fair fight” involves you going one-on-one with your opponent. Not 2-on-1. [/b]

Obviously the basic concept of "reading" eludes only you. Perhaps, though, that you didn't notice he was only "beating" Anakin and Obi-Wan for a one simple reason: they were using a ploy. For example:

"He finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago, and only then, belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi's Ataro and Shii-Cho had been ploys, as well.
Kenobi had become a master of Soresu. Dooku found himself having a sudden, unexpected, overpowering, and entirely distressing bad feeling about this..."

Now, it goes on further to say that's the reason Dooku took out Obi-Wan with the Force completely at that point in time. Because he thought "these fools might actually be able to beat him".

You also bring up the point of "script > novelization". Well, let me say if you actually took the time to look at a book or completely review my argument instead of taking it in a different direction, you might know this:

1.) You have no idea of what draft or date of the script, ergo your little bullshit collapses. Unless you prove which script it was exactly, then your points hold no water (for example, the script on the script website is incorrect at times, which leads me to believe it's not the final draft).

2.) Guess what? Even if it's the final copy of the script it doesn't matter. Why? Simply because the novelization does not contradict the script that Dooku was tired. In fact, if you would equip your seeing eye goggles (or in your case, get a Hubble Space Telescope as you're obviously a blind bat) you'd see that the quotes I've provided conform to the script about Dooku being tired; although, as I pointed out multiple times, the script doesn't have every minuscule detail so we must turn to the novelization on non-contradictory information.

The fact Dooku revitalized himself is not contradictory anything. Understand that, buster? He was tired (script/novel), however, before his one on one bout with Anakin, he completely revitalized himself. So your point collapses, and because of that - it was a "fair fight" in that Dooku wasn't at a loss anymore.

You're completely ignoring canon material and substituting your idiocy ridden opinion for it. Get this through your obvious thick, durasteel head (as Nupe would say): there's no contradiction. Anakin fought Dooku while he was completely revitalized. This is fact, you are not.

I won’t provide the quotes but you only have to glance through the fight scene to note how he dispatches both of them only to be assailed upon by the other. The fact of the matter remains he took them on both and would have tooled them both if it was ONE-ON-ONE IN A FAIR FIGHT. But it wasn’t.

And again, the canon novelization states the reason for this. Which, as I've already said, was because Kenobi had started out using Ataru as a ploy, and Anakin had used the basic Shien. Once Dooku realized this, he discovered that he would be overwhelmed:

"These clowns might - just possibly - actually be able to beat him. No sense taking chances; even his Master would agree with that."

So he took out Kenobi. And it was Anakin who made Dooku tire out in the first place, then he revitalized himself after taking out Obi-Wan - before engaging Skywalker in a one on one bout.

No. It could be you’re blind. Any person with an IQ over perhaps 70 understands what the principles of a fair confrontation entail. They entail one person fighting another. Dooku fought TWO opponents. You can proivde all the quotes you want. Script says he was tired.

And anyone who has completed third grade would know that if someone were to be completely back in health, and power - that it'd be a fair fight. That is the situation. You are ignoring the fact that the novelization conforms to the script in that Dooku was getting tired, but once he took out Kenobi, he revitalized himself.

Does the script have to say that Dooku gained his power back? I think not considering the fact it does not describe every detail of the movie. Actually, I know it doesn't because if you just read it, it doesn't state everything about when Mace and Sidious fight.

As well, I'd like to call into question what script this is? Final copy? Rough draft? Second revision? According to IMSDb, it's undated. And inside the script, it says this:

"A close shot of PALPATINE as the fight begins. Close shots of THREE JEDI getting cut down by PALPATINE. PALPATINE and MACE continue to fight.

Jedi Master MACE WINDU and the Sith Lord fight their way down the hallway and into the main office area. PALPATINE is able to use the Force to slam MACE against the wall, but he recovers before the Chancellor can cut him down."

This never happened. So, could it be that your "script" isn't right? Please provide proof that the script you are looking at is the one George Lucas used during ROTS. For proof, I'd like you to get George Lucas to agree with you.

(Kidding, but the point is: script errors are apparent.)

Not like this matters, because as I've been trying to relay to you the entire script, the novelization is not contradicting the script. It was conforming to it.

Appearance in movie and Lucas say he did not know the plan was for him to die and that he would be killed. So, fighting MULTIPLE opponents and not expecting to die. Wow. Sounds like a totally fair contest to me.

Wait, don't answer that. I'll provide the answer: Yes.

When you consider that the plan was to take out Kenobi. So, he had planned to fight two on one for a time. And of course, nothing says he wasn't fighting to his fullest, or at least as much as Anakin was.

Anakin and Obi-Wan weren't out to kill Dooku. Anakin, as pointed out by the novelization, decided to take Dooku's hands instead of outright kill him. He also was waiting for "permission" to kill Dooku (which was given to him by Palpatine alone), so this would indicate that Anakin wasn't even out for the kill.

And just because he didn't plan to die doesn't mean he wasn't fighting as hard as he possibly could. For two examples:

""You will duel them," Sidious had said. "Kill Kenobi. His only purpose is to die and, in so doing, ignite young Skywalker to tap the depths of his fear and rage. Should you defeat Skywalker easily, then we will know that he is not prepared to serve us. Perhaps he never will be prepared. Should he by some fluke best you, however, I will control the outcome to spare you any unnecessary embarrassment, and we will have gained a powerful ally. But above all you must make the contest appear real, Lord Tyranus." "I will treat it as if it were my crowning achievement," Dooku had promised."

--Labryinth of Evil, Last Chapter."

"Dooku understood that this was more than a test for Skywalker; though Sidious had never said so directly, Dooku was certain that he himself was being tested as well. Success today would show his Master that he was worthy of the mantle of Mastery himself."

-- Revenge of the Sith novel, Chapter 1.

This would prove that Dooku was fighting to not only please his master, but to the best he could. As he says "crowning achievement", and to make it real. And of course, you are ignoring the fact that the NEC states Dooku was fighting for his life once he realized there was no stopping Anakin.

LoE states Palpatine would save him if he was in trouble. So, losing is not equivalent to death. Your point is moot.

And this means that Dooku won't fight to the best of his ability either way? Considering he indicates in LOE and the novel that he will.

Anyways, your entire argument is moot. Point being?

The novelization is lower level canon than the script.

1.) Except the script, as provided above, has errors.

2.) The script is not being contradicted. The novelization states Dooku was tired, however, he completely revitalized himself. You are completely ignoring this fact, so I'll make it simple so even someone of your caliber can understand:

There. Is. No. Contradiction.

So,

Quit. Implying. There. Is.

Simple enough? Buddha, I hope so.

What you claim is the lie that has been postulated and continually destroyed ever since ROTS. Dooku equals tiring out Yoda in a sword duel.

Okay, since you love the script so much (from the AOTC script):

"For the first part of the contest, he parries every cut and thrust that Dooku aims. Nothing the great swordsman tries gets through. His energy drains. His strokes become feebler, slower."

You were saying? And Yoda has beaten Dooku before, so you are wrong.

Dooku equals great mastery of The Force but used no real power of it in the duel in ROTS (movie).

He actually did use it against Kenobi. And even so, it's rare for duels to go into a Force and lightsaber duel at the same time. Especially when you're opponent is clearly stronger than you are, and is pressing the advantage.

You talk so much about "if blah knew blah about fights". Well, let's see: if your opponent is stronger, faster, and plainly better than you are in fist fighting and is constantly on the attack - how are you going to pull a gun out of its holster?

Dooku, in novelization, had Anakin downed and beaten but was prevented from continuing the attack by Obi-Wan Kenobi. These are the facts you completely ignore in your vain attempt to deny the truth.

In the novelization, they are using ploy forms.

Evidence...hm. LoE states he was to be saved by Palpatine.

LOE states he will "treat this as his crowning achievement". And Palpatine states Anakin is "far younger and more powerful than Lord Tyranus", hence why he doesn't give a shit if he died. And as well, the Jedi Purge was a few days away. If Dooku is more powerful, why wouldn't he want to keep Dooku?

Script says he was tired from the fight with Kenobi & Anakin.

The novelization concedes to this point, but after he tools Kenobi, he revitalizes himself. The script says that during the Kenobi & Skywalker fight he was tired. It doesn't say he was tired the rest of the time, hence no contradiction. Your point here holds no water.

Novelization states he beat down Anakin at several points but coul dnot go forth in the attack due to Obi-Wan. You do understand the basics of methmeatcs, don’t you? 2 vs. 1. The 1a deals with 1b but 1 c prevents 1a from further attacking 1b.

Except, while being completely revitalized, he was tooled 1 on 1. So, it really doesn't matter. There's also the fact that Anakin and Obi-Wan were using decoy forms. Once they switched up, Dooku had thought exactly that "these fools might actually be able to beat" him.

The fact remains these: Dooku, not fighting for his life (LoE). Dooku, facing multiple opponents (movie, novelization, script). Dooku, tired from fighting these two (script). Dooku, not intending to kill Anakin (LoE, novelization) because killing Kenobi to turn Anakin was the objective. I can’t see why this was radicaly altered in the movie. Dooku, having the advantage on both Anakin and Kenobi but unable to press the attack due to multiple opponents (novelization and movie).

Except these "facts" have been trumped over and over by canon material in which you ignore. There is a reason why such and such happened in the movie, this is explained by the canon material known as the "ROTS Novel".

Originally posted by Nikkolas
I do apologize to Advent. I don't mean to use foul language but I do not like the idea that you declare those who disagree with you fanboys or idiots. It does not make them any more receptive to whatever argument you put forward. I will refraim from personal attacks, in future. I hope you can do the same.

I apologize then as well, but I am not going back to edit every insult I've included in these past two posts, but just ignore them.

(*sigh* I'm just too lazy.)

well...unfortunately, i cant...you wrote some of the stupidest shit I've ever read. First you think that cutting someone's hands off with a lightsaber isn't a saber battle, then you twist GL's commentary words around to fit your pathetic fanboy argument. He says, "In this instance Palpatine is testing Anakn to see if he's strong enough to become his apprentice, and he doesn't tell Dooku what he's actually up to. Dooku thinks that he's just going to fight him. But the whole thing is a set up by the emperor to test Anakin's strength, and when Anakin is strong enough, which he proves to be by killing Dooku, then the emperor is ready to convert him over to the darkside to become his new apprentice."

Meaning, Dooku doesn't know that he's actually trying to turn Anakin, he doesn't know he's testing him, he doesn't know that he wants him as his new apprentice, if he did, I'm sure he wouldn't help his master replace HIM. "oh yea by the way Dooku, I want to turn Anakin to be my new apprentice...but you know that pesky rule of two? Well...one of us has to go and it isn't gonna be me." "OK my master, let me put down my faggy martini and help you get someone to kill me." NO, you idiot. (sorry)

So you know, GL>script+novelization+other author books+the movies themselves. So if GL says something that is contradicted by the movies, guess who's a more canon source...

wait, don't answer that. Ill provide the answer: GL IS!

You cant read too much into what he says, he gives absolutely NO implication or room for speculation that Dooku was to hold back.

If you want to talk advantage, Dooku knew he was going to fight one or both of them, he knew the layout of the ship, he had super battle droids with him, GG lurking somewhere on board(who was no threat, although could have been if he felt like it.), he had terrain advantage (stairs). And you're almighty script said that as soon as he tossed away OB1 that Anakin was "all over him". But in the movie I was, Anakin was still laying down looking at OB1 and Dooku when he was finished. So there's a fallacie. Except the fact that Anakin>Dooku, and badly. You cant save the Count this time. Even Ox is slowing down on posts...unless you're a...sock???? J/k

btw, I'm mildly sorry for any insults...i wrote them for a reason, but see they may betoo much. And i didnt write them to make you try to see the truth, rather allowing myself to vent after reading your posts that make no sense to me. Sorry.

I read all that but I only have a couple responses... I do conceded on certain points.

1. The script quote I used is from some script I'm not sure as to which one. I got it from Escape in another thread. I figured it was reliable so i used it. If it's not reliable, I apologize.

2. I don't understand how Dooku got tired out from Anakin. Dooku didn't get tired out from that entire fight with yoda. He couldn't beat Yoda but he wasn't tired from what I could tell. How did Anakin wear him out on his own when Yoda's speed couldn't?

On the rest..I give up. I just can't accept that Dooku can contest Yoda in a more furious and lengthy duel but loses to Anakin. It baffles the mind. But, for all intents and purposes, you win.

well...unfortunately, i cant...you wrote some of the stupidest shit I've ever read. First you think that cutting someone's hands off with a lightsaber isn't a saber battle, then you twist GL's commentary words around to fit your pathetic fanboy argument. He says, "In this instance Palpatine is testing Anakn to see if he's strong enough to become his apprentice, and he doesn't tell Dooku what he's actually up to. Dooku thinks that he's just going to fight him. But the whole thing is a set up by the emperor to test Anakin's strength, and when Anakin is strong enough, which he proves to be by killing Dooku, then the emperor is ready to convert him over to the darkside to become his new apprentice."

A. He grabbed Dooku's arms and cut them off. He did not outduel him to sever his hands. He grabbed them in a completely unorthadoz move and chopped. Dooku outdueled Luke and cut off his hand. He did nto grab Luke's arma nd cut it off.

Meaning, Dooku doesn't know that he's actually trying to turn Anakin, he doesn't know he's testing him, he doesn't know that he wants him as his new apprentice, if he did, I'm sure he wouldn't help his master replace HIM. "oh yea by the way Dooku, I want to turn Anakin to be my new apprentice...but you know that pesky rule of two? Well...one of us has to go and it isn't gonna be me." "OK my master, let me put down my faggy martini and help you get someone to kill me." NO, you idiot. (sorry)

...I just said that. I said Dooku didn't knwo of the plan to make Anakin the new apprentice....

I would like to take the chance to say that I officially agree that Anakin (as of ROTS, not Vader) is better. I hate the idea but the facts are overwhelming and I despise this argument whenver it comes up. Although personally I think it is a load of bullsh*t on the novels part. Dooku went from being one of the orders greatest ever swordsman/force users, had wtf pwned the duo before, can go rounds with the likes of Yoda and Mace Windu yet got pwned b f*ckin Anakin. It (to me) makes no sense what so ever. 😕 I think that GL and the novel author have made Anakin look too strong.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
I would like to take the chance to say that I officially agree that Anakin (as of ROTS, not Vader) is better. I hate the idea but the facts are overwhelming and I despise this argument whenver it comes up. Although personally I think it is a load of bullsh*t on the novels part. Dooku went from being one of the orders greatest ever swordsman/force users, had wtf pwned the duo before, can go rounds with the likes of Yoda and Mace Windu yet got pwned b f*ckin Anakin. It (to me) makes no sense what so ever. 😕 I think that GL and the novel author have made Anakin look too strong.

Or perhaps you overestimate Dooku, stop thinking that Dooku kicks so much ass, Anakin was the Chosen One, it's natural he kills everyone.

And yes, George Lucas sucks at making movies now....but not for this reason

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
Or perhaps you overestimate Dooku, stop thinking that Dooku kicks so much ass, Anakin was the Chosen One, it's natural he kills everyone.

Perhaps. But you have to admit that the EU and AOTC make Dooku look extremely powerful. He had his own private army of Dark Acolytes - if that doesnt display power then I dont know what does. Also if a match came up with Anakin vs Mace people would say Mace wins. That also pisses me off because Mace and Dooku are virtually equal. Dooku got pwned by Anakin yet Mace (who is on par with Dooku) would win. It hurts my brain just thinking about it. 🤪

And yes, George Lucas sucks at making movies now....but not for this reason

Amen to that my friend.

Since when does everyone - currently - think Mace and Dooku are "virtually equals" and that they are "on par" (in your context meaning equal)? You state it as fact. It is not. It should've read:

"I think Mace and Dooku are equal."

In which the general response would be: "No one cares what you think.

(Kidding about that 'response', but it's still not fact.)

Lol, I was thought that that was the general consensus round here. Anyway it is irrelevant and im not arguing the point today.

Nikkolas, you almost make me feel bad for debating you hard on this...almost. Only because i truly feel I am right. I don't want to get into it again about that being part of a saber duel, obviously we have different perspectives, but whatever.

Ox, I commend you. You are now using logic to view this battle. GOOD ON YA MATE!!! (i dunno) Anyway, whether Vader is technically better or not is something that we may not ever know or agree on. I feel that Vader would wtfpwn Anakin, and believe that Dooku would be no different. You feel otherwise. Thats fine. I think the reason Luke beat Vader is the same reason that Anakin pwned Dooku so easily, to show how powerful he actually was. Not to knock Vader OR Dooku. But overall, Vader was a more pivotal character and more powerful Sith. But like I said before, you shouldn't take Dooku's humiliating loss (j/k) so hard. They were trying to convey Anakin's immense power, not that Dooku was weak. I don;t think he's as powerful as you make him out to be, but powerful indeed. So look at it as a "glass is half full" point of view. 👆 😄

btw, i don't think that Mace and Dooku are equals, and I dont think that Anakin would lose either. I dont think he would win easily, but like said...not today...

I simply don't think anyone would say Anakin is miles above Dooku by ROTS, would they? He's strong yes but the fight lasted seconds. This isn't like Kit Fist vs. Palpatine. This is like Count Dooku, one of the most revered Jedi Masters to ever live with power in every area. If Obi-Wan/Anakin can go for so long, why does Dooku/Anakin last scarcely a minute? That is where people should realiize the distrust of the reults of that fight stem from. People witnessed AOTC and saw Dooku matched Yoda in a very long and furious match. Perhaps he lost and ran, that's up to you, but he nevertheless "fought well." Then we get ROTS and he is destroyed by Anakin in a minute; same Anakin who later goes for several minutes and venue changes before the fight ends.

iI'll settle for Dooku beating Anakin in The Force. I know, I know. Anakin made a dome collapse when he yelled. He also buried himself and let Dooku escape when he did this. Dooku knows more about The Force than Anakin at this point and I feel that would allow him to defeat Anakin. What I really want is a full scene and a ful battle between the two. Not 1 effin' minute scene.

In the end, I won't argue this..but I won't let anyone say Anakin is milse above Dooku by now. In a full fight I would say it's 5/5 for who would win between the two. Superior raw power vs. inferior but refined skill and power would make it a lot longer than the movie led people to believe, I feel.

Shit. I can't type.

Mace >>>Dooku
Anakin>>Dooku

Mace would kill Dooku with Vaapad/Shatterpoint

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
Mace >>>Dooku
Anakin>>Dooku

Mace would kill Dooku with Vaapad/Shatterpoint

Lol. 😆

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
Mace >>>Dooku
Anakin>>Dooku

Mace would kill Dooku with Vaapad/Shatterpoint

Yeah, pretty much.

Not like it ain't true... 🙄

Yes... I mean, Dooku only stalemated Yoda in the most intense battle in all of the movies short of Anakin/Obi-Wan and it was a lot more fasta nd close. He tired out Yoda...so, Mace can just wipe the floor with him.

It was not the most intense battle. Anakin vs. Dooku was more intesne. And the battle lasted for about a minute before Dooku ran away. Anakin could contend with Yoda for the same length, so can Obi-Wan Kenobi. And Yoda gets tired out for anything, because he is short and old. However, he doesn't give up, that's why his vitality is uber.

It was not the most intense battle. Anakin vs. Dooku was more intesne. And the battle lasted for about a minute before Dooku ran away. Anakin could contend with Yoda for the same length, so can Obi-Wan Kenobi. And Yoda gets tired out for anything, because he is short and old. However, he doesn't give up, that's why his vitality is uber.

You're joking, right? Anakin and Dooku lasted no time at all and wasn't going at HALF the speed of Dooku and Yoda. Kenobi could go that long with yoda? Says who? No one? Kenobi wasn't even above Anakin and when he fought Dooku, he was pwned in a second? Yes, he'd go as long as Dooku with yoda. And Anakin? You do realize that just as Dooku said, Anakin's style of fighting lacks in mobility. You're telling me that a style that lacks in mobility can keep up with the fastest duelist alive? Give me a break.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Says who? No one? Kenobi wasn't even above Anakin and when he fought Dooku, he was pwned in a second?

22 seconds actually. Well, even less: 13 - if you cut off the nine seconds of talking.

You're telling me that a style that lacks in mobility can keep up with the fastest duelist alive? Give me a break.

Dooku is the "fastest duelist alive"? Proof? He's not even alive for one, but really to claim he's the fastest duelist alive is basically saying "ever", so prove it.

Though I agree Kenobi would get obliterated with the Force in half the time probably, and it's doubtful he can keep up with Yoda for that long when he was already put into a vulnerable situation by Dooku.