Yoda and Windu vs. Exar Kun

Originally posted by Deus Ex
True, but saying that the PT jedi have reached a "limit" is a but ridiculous. That would be like saying that a modern day practitioner of any fighting style has reached a limit that an earlier one hasn't practiced. And let's be fair; a latter day swordsman would wipe their ass with any one of us.

Is it really ridiculous ? As far as we know there were no new styles developed in lightsaber combat for 4,000 years until Mace came in and invented Vaapad.

Why ? As far as we know there were fights going on between Jedi and Sith for more than 1,000 years before the Battle of Ruusan. Why would nobody of them have developed any "new" styles if it was possible for them to do so ?

And a "latter day swordsman" would wipe their ass with any of us because we don't have any people here that rely on swordfighting skills to survive. The Jedi did all rely on the force which is part of their lightsaber combat. And we know that they did all practice with lightsabers (because that weapon is very close related to their lives too). "This weapon is your life."

Would they get their ass kicked by people who practiced the same stuff to the same degree ?

Yes, that is true. But you were saying that the PT group had reached the limit, implying that they had sufficient mastery to counter each and every possible combination of such attacks. To even possess such knowledge is considerable, and in the light you've put it, impossible.

Why would you even need to counter combination of attacks if you have lightning fast reflexes, some foresight ability or you're simply able to avoid attacks like that using the force (Yoda) ?
The attacks have to go somewhere and your opponent has to move his saber to attack you and you can simply move your own saber to defend the attack.

I think you're ignoring a few things here. First, every thrown ball is the same, as is basically every thrown punch. But the variables involved in direction, force, forces and such effecting it, etc. make each and every one different. In some cases, it can be sufficient enough a difference to make the ball say, hard to catch, despite the catcher having good knowledge of how to catch or even a big glove to aid him. To simply say that it's all basic and no variation can ever be too radical to take on off guard is to spit in the face of reality. Obviously, Anakin did something that the experienced Dooku never expected, and Dooku is, as you are wont to say, near the "limit".

So saying that all fighting is basic and that the PT jedi are near this "limit" and thus stand a good chance against Kun is ridiculous.

Of course you can catch people off guard in reality. But we are still talking about people with lightning fast reflexes and some foresight ability here. People lose in lightsaber duels by making mistakes. See Anakin and Obi-Wan in AotC, the Jedi Masters in ROTS or Sidious against Mace.
If you consider the nature of force users you can't simply catch them off guard if they are focusing on a fight unless you are far superior to them in duelling skills and a force user yourself (or leave them no chance to defend theirselves). That's why the superior force user is always winning unless facing somebody having much greater duelling abilities (Dooku / Mace) or far more experience (Yoda).

And is this why the jedi masters accompanying Mace got slaughtered by the unorthodox Sidious? I mean, all moves are basic, and as jedi masters of the all mighty PT era, they should have been able to survive a few seconds knowing the basics of all things, Shii-Cho, right? I mean, the Shii-Cho heavy practitioner lasted a good three swipes. No, this doesn't follow.

Again Fisto, Kolar an Tiin were far away from being master duellists or master force users. They were on the Council because other people died in the wars. People like Mace and Yoda where on the Council for being the superior badasses they are. Mace entered the Council in an age most people could only dream off (28) and invented a fighting style with an age other people just became Padawan (13) while Yoda was hanging around there for 7 centuries.

And this is again the Sidious fight. Kolar and Tiin didn't even move their weapons before falling dead on the ground and Mace / Fisto were limited through the lack of space before Sidious cut Fisto down.

Targeting zones are the basics. Things beyond that are techniques and skills that evolve into separate forms. Different fighting styles evolve for different purposes. If you're trying to tell me that the PYT jedi know the basics and thus will last longer than Vodod did against Kun's carnage, you need to tell that to Agen Kolar and Kit Fisto and Saesee Tiin.

a) I'm still wondering how Kun was able to kill Vodo that fast.
b) Sidious screwed the Jedi before 2 of them where moving their weapons. Hell...they are nowhere near to be compareable to Mace, Yoda and Dooku so why you throw them in here ?

More assumptions. First off, life drain isn't likely to be a part of this duel. If it was, Kun would have whipped it out against Vodo or Ulic, the latter of which he considered a threat.

Well...right.

Second, we know that Dooku and Sidious' Force lightning; assuming that Kun's lightning is the same level needs some backing. Considering Kun's powers are immense, this doesn't naturally seem to be the case.

Assuming that Kun's force lightning would be more powerful also needs some backing. Sidious and Dooku seem to use very similar force lightning while Sidious seems to be the superior force user.
RPG stats which aren't accurate enough to rely on. I'll pass.

You're assuming that Kun can only do those things. It doesn't follow, Nai.

What else should he do keeping the fact in mind that we never saw anybody using different abilities in combat ?

See...that is the point where we have different ideas about "force powers". Would Yoda be able to blow up stars if he had grown up in ancient times learning Sith magic for 900 years ? Would Mace be able to do so ? Would Dooku be ? Would Anakin ?

But what relevance does this have? We know from our knowledge they have not yet exhibited such power, and are more than likely not possessing it. The fact they potentially may have if they had different circumstances is irrelevant and about as worthwhile as debating full potential Anakin.

We know (for example) that Yoda has greater force powers than Dooku (greater power, greater attunement, greater mastery): Would Yoda be able to use Sith lightning ?
If Dooku's idea is right that a "dark side Yoda" would obliterate Sidious in the blink of an eye what would he be able to do ? I hope you get what I'm trying to say. You can't judge the possible abilities of people when they were never close to using all of their abilities.

In the same way, what would Dooku know about Yoda's upper limit powers if he never did show them all? He, like us, can only speculate. Is it possible he was a badass conquer them all being if he went DS? Sure, but he didn't, and we can only debate him as we see him, and as we see him, Kun is superior.

Why Exar is weaker than you think he is ? You gave an example yourself: Exar did never blow up a star with his force powers. Ulic and Exar send people using Naga Sadow's ship (channeling force powers) to blow up Ossus (I think it was Aleema Keeto who did that). So even Sadow used Sith technology to multiply his force powers enough to blow up a star and this (as seen) could be done by people not being close to Kun or Ulic.

The powers still had to be there, even if they were channelled to begin with. And that's not even putting aside that Exar Kun's powers were massive by anyone's standpoint, and that he was clearly the best lightsaber fighter of his time.

He can use aggressive movements if needed otherwise Anakin would have all his limbs in ROTS. It's not that he will just stand around and watch getting his fellows cut into pieces while doing nothing because noone attacks him.

He found an opponing and took it, no one says he just stands around all day, he stands around when he doesn't have to fight.

He was trying to overwhelm Dooku's defence with unusual movements (jumping over Dooku's head and stuff like that). Is that effiecient ? Debateable...would strike 200 times into a defence of a master duellist would be "efficient" ?

It's not efficient in the fact that it takes a lot of space and did not actually defeat his opponent.

I can't imagine trying to plug another Jedi, such as Mace in there, and have him be able to attack Dooku simultaneously. Yoda takes up a good deal of space with his flips and acrobatics, anyone else in there would have to wait their turn. That's true for all melee attacks to some degree or another. There is simply not enough cohesion for Exar Kun to have to parry more than one or two blows simultaneously.

We know that Yoda doesn't even need a lightsaber to avoid getting hit. Best they did is stop him from throwing in attacks on them - in fact that is the only thing they could do.

But in the same whim, none of the opponents were quite as good as Kun, now were they? In fact, none of them are even in the same sector as far as force powers or lightsaber skills. In the same whim, we didn't exactly see Kun getting hacked up left and right either.

Of course the Clone War cartoon is ridiculous - but this is all Lucas approved. And if Lucas wants his PT Jedi look like badass fighters then they are. Why do you want to contradict Lucas personal oppinion here - you who always bashes people for contradicting Lucas personal philosophy about the force ("Grey Jedi" and stuff like that) ?

Because people are attempting to use the clone wars juxtaposed to things like the movies, books, and comics. When there are so many incongruities that people believe GG is different in the clone wars than he is in ROTS, then there's a problem.

I've read through Shatterpoint again last week. It labels Kar Vastor as "lightning fast" just to say that "Mace was invisible" and then he places 6 hits on Vastor.

Correct, Mace is mad quick.

Erm...he did beat Sidious with that ability (kicking Sidious lightsaber away) - the Shatterpoint ability just shows Mace weak points of his enemy. It's very similar to being able to look at a piece of wood and immediatly spot the weakest point. It's another question if Mace can exploit that weak points after spotting them. Maybe he has to be the superior lightsaber duellist to do so.

We know that he has to have the ability to do so, as he wasn't able to defeat Sidious until about a minute into the fight. But still, could he do it to someone faster, stronger, and more attuned than Sidious?

Since I don't have my comics here at the moment I can't tell you the exact place. It is told that he augmented the strength of his walking stick with the force - it would make no sense if he has a walking stick made of a material that can simply block a lightsaber. Or have you ever seen something like that ?

No, but using the force doesn't mean that he requires concentration and that it detracts from his ability to do anything else. Yoda uses the force to do his acrobatics, but that doesn't detract from his ability to swing around a glowstick as far as our knowledge goes.

No. I'm saying that there must be a reason why Kun is suddenly able to defeat somebody quite easily that did fight him into a standstill just a short time period before that.

It's not out of the question, there's a lot of mental and physical aspects that go along with the force, and we've seen crazier things happen in Star Wars. Any place where people can suddenly be more powerful in combat because they allow their emotions to flow through you makes this stuff believable.

Because IF Kun had any advantages on his side (like Vodo focusing on resisting Kun's Sith magic spell) you can't really call it "fair". That was my entire point here.

But there is also very little evidence to the contrary. Anything else is mindless speculation. Take the fight as it came, there was no gray area about it until this debate.

a) Now I have to read the comics again to tell you that but as far as I remember that fight happened after Exar had become the Dark Lord that means he already had the amulet and he already had exterminated Nadds spirit.

Yes, I believe, I'll grab my comics later.

b) Again: A "horrible" team that contains of one Jedi Master and two of his former Padawans (at least one) now on Jedi Master / Sith Lord status ? Yoda and Dooku are a Padawan team and we know that all three of them are quite skilled force users / lightsaber duellists.

Yoda has trained hundreds, if not thousands of Jedi during his lifetime, you can't just plug any of them and have it be a "team."

See...that is the point where we have different ideas about "force powers". Would Yoda be able to blow up stars if he had grown up in ancient times learning Sith magic for 900 years ? Would Mace be able to do so ? Would Dooku be ? Would Anakin ?

That is another question entirely, and it relies on us speculating into the powers of people who don't even exist fictionally outside of perhaps, our imagination. The core of the versus forum is the rather rough bond between EU materials and movies. Our job here is to make reasonable judgments based both on logical conclusions and points from these, while noting that the movies supercede all. Yoda's powers, and those of Mace and Dooku, are outlined in the movies. They are significantly weaker than those depicted in the NJO series (Like Luke), the Tales of the Jedi comics, and even the games. This seems off base (I agree 100% on that) and shouldn't have ever happened, but it did. Time to deal with it. We have our sources here. Debating on those type of questions is so subjective it's ridiculous. We have nothing to base it on.

We know (for example) that Yoda has greater force powers than Dooku (greater power, greater attunement, greater mastery): Would Yoda be able to use Sith lightning ?

Someone elsewhere in the SW sections said that Yoda and possibly other Jedi could use force lightning, but were forbidden because of the jedi code. The source was something like SW Insider, but I could be wrong. It was awhile ago, and it could be BS. In any case, it's not too much a stretch to think that a strong Force user with dark side intentions could wield Force lightning. This includes Yoda... if he were a Sith.

If Dooku's idea is right that a "dark side Yoda" would obliterate Sidious in the blink of an eye what would he be able to do ? I hope you get what I'm trying to say. You can't judge the possible abilities of people when they were never close to using all of their abilities.

No, perhaps not. But what does this have to do with the battle? Dooku believes that a Sith Yoda would be godlike. It's entirely possible, since being the embodiment of the jedi considerably alters his lifelong pursuits (meditation over rape and pillage, for example) but this is also based on Dooku's worst fears, too. Dooku's worst fear was that Yoda would stop being a good guy some day and open the can. But I don't think this is a sufficient means to establish Yoda's power, especially in reference to ancient Sith. If Dooku had said "omg yoda pwns bettr than ecksar koon!!!@@!!" I'd take this more to heart.

Why Exar is weaker than you think he is ? You gave an example yourself: Exar did never blow up a star with his force powers. Ulic and Exar send people using Naga Sadow's ship (channeling force powers) to blow up Ossus (I think it was Aleema Keeto who did that). So even Sadow used Sith technology to multiply his force powers enough to blow up a star and this (as seen) could be done by people not being close to Kun or Ulic.

I was under the impression that Kun did it once by himself. Same with Sadow. If I'm mistaken... Hm. I'll double check that when I get home tonight.

He [b]can use aggressive movements if needed otherwise Anakin would have all his limbs in ROTS. It's not that he will just stand around and watch getting his fellows cut into pieces while doing nothing because noone attacks him.[/B]

No, probably not. And I doubt even that Makashi is his only style of use. But based on the evidence at hand, I'd be very very cautious to put forth the idea that Dooku is a good aggressive melee combatant capable of complimenting Mace Windu and Yoda. It doesn't seem likely.

He was trying to overwhelm Dooku's defence with unusual movements (jumping over Dooku's head and stuff like that). Is that effiecient ? Debateable...would strike 200 times into a defence of a master duellist would be "efficient" ?

Wasteful, I would think. And the more I watch Yoda in AOTC (compared to ROTS, where he is more reasonable) the more I think it's all for show. I wouldn't even say that Yoda was trying to kill Dooku at this point, but I won't argue that point because it's nonsense. In any case, Yoda's style relies a lot on acrobatics and flips, etc. While this makes him the lightsaber wielding hummingbird master, it doesn't make him the best sworsman of all time. If anything, Yoda doesn't show much in the way of normal swordsmanship; just flip attacks and parries.

We know that Yoda doesn't even need a lightsaber to avoid getting hit. Best they did is stop him from throwing in attacks on them - in fact that is the only thing they [b]could do.[/B]

Correction: we know that Yoda has dodged the attacks of three fellow PT era jedi. Note that these same jedi got creamed in pretty lame ways. I would die laughing if Exar Kun got owned by stormtroopers or by Anakin Skywalker or Grievious. Exar Kun is better than those three were.

Of course the Clone War cartoon is ridiculous - but this is all Lucas approved. And if Lucas wants his PT Jedi look like badass fighters then they are. Why do you want to contradict Lucas personal oppinion here - you who always bashes people for contradicting Lucas personal philosophy about the force ("Grey Jedi" and stuff like that) ?

Well, for one, did GL write and direct the cartoons? If so, I'm sorely pissed at him for being inconsistant. If he didn't and it's just a Lucasfilm production, hell... I'll take that for what it's worth. Crystal Star is Lucasfilm sanctioned, and it blows.

I've read through Shatterpoint again last week. It labels Kar Vastor as "lightning fast" just to say that "Mace was invisible" and then he places 6 hits on Vastor.

Is this the English version? I wouldn't doubt it entirely. You are probably right on this point.

Erm...he did beat Sidious with that ability (kicking Sidious lightsaber away) - the Shatterpoint ability just shows Mace weak points of his enemy. It's very similar to being able to look at a piece of wood and immediatly spot the weakest point. It's another question if Mace can exploit that weak points after spotting them. Maybe he has to be the superior lightsaber duellist to do so.

Did the novel say that Mace used Shatterpoint? It didn't say or imply that he used it in-movie. And I agree with the latter part; Mace must also be able to follow up the action. You can find the weak point of Godzilla, but if you can get close enough to poke out his eyes and shoot his brain, god help you.

Vastor wanted to jump at Mace and Mace simply force pushed one of the vibroshields through Vastors. I would doubt that Vastor would be able to survive against Mace in Lightsaber vs Virboshield combat very long.

Again, you probably recall the battle better than me. My bad for not remembering. But I seemed to recall a battle which was lightsaber to virboshield, and Mace didn't overcome Vastor.

Since I don't have my comics here at the moment I can't tell you the exact place. It is told that he augmented the strength of his walking stick with the force - it would make no sense if he has a walking stick made of a material that can simply block a lightsaber. Or have you ever seen something like that ?

Well, hell... I don't remember this either. I thought it was Vodo's power, but it may very well be the staff itself. Makes sense if a lightsaber grandmaster (who has no doubt mastered melee combat to some considerable degree) would choose a simple staff like that. For one, it insures safe sparring for the other party with real blades, and for two, he would be confident enough in his proficiency with a stick that he wouldn't -need- a lightsaber.

No. I'm saying that there must be a reason why Kun is suddenly able to defeat somebody quite easily that did fight him into a standstill just a short time period before that.

There probably is. I'll look into it.

Because IF Kun had any advantages on his side (like Vodo focusing on resisting Kun's Sith magic spell) you can't really call it "fair". That was my entire point here.

Well, if Vodo was concerned with his concentration on his staff to Kun's skill (Which he himself admitted was the most impressive he had ever known or taught) why didn't he grab someone else's lightsaber or carry one with him and use it? Obviously he had faith in his staff, even if it was ill-fated faith.

b) Again: A "horrible" team that contains of one Jedi Master and two of his former Padawans (at least one) now on Jedi Master / Sith Lord status ? Yoda and Dooku [b]are a Padawan team and we know that all three of them are quite skilled force users / lightsaber duellists. [/B]

Well, one horrible team was Agen Kolar (a reputable lightsaber duellist and Clone Wars hero and PT era council member), Saessee Tiin (another heavy, who was above Yaddle and several others in the chain of command in Cloak of Deception) Kit Fisto (who was a peer of Obi-Wan, a frontline general in the wars and a Shii-Cho practitioner of considerable skill) and Mace The Windu. Sidious, a relatively minor Sith in the grand scheme of EU things, owned three of these four in seconds, but was defeated by Mace, who is closer to Sidious' level.

Then watch ROTS at the beginning: Obi-Wan and Anakin SKywalker together probably have more Force power and teamwork behind them than any one man. But Dooku tooled them (specifically, when he choked Obi and backicked Anakin. He had absolute control of the situation at the point).

So you see, the abilities of the individual mean squat in large numbers unless one of the larger group is on par with the single opponent. Neither Yoda nor Dooku nor Mace windu alone can take Exar Kun. Toegther, they would need an insane amount of teamwork and even then there is likely to be disastrous

Originally posted by Illustrious
But what relevance does this have? We know from our knowledge they have not yet exhibited such power, and are more than likely not possessing it. The fact they potentially may have if they had different circumstances is irrelevant and about as worthwhile as debating full potential Anakin.

Because this is talking about potential. It doesn't matter if you are dark or light side practitioner when it comes down to lightsaber combat since the force is used in equal ways by both factions here (aid physical abilities).
Since your attunement with the force has an impact on your lightsaber skills (like Janus said before) you can't simply say the Sith Lords would outduel the PT Jedi because they have shown force powers that seem to be stronger than those of the PT Jedi. Since they used Dark Side abilities.

In the same way, what would Dooku know about Yoda's upper limit powers if he never did show them all? He, like us, can only speculate. Is it possible he was a badass conquer them all being if he went DS? Sure, but he didn't, and we can only debate him as we see him, and as we see him, Kun is superior.

Dooku did know his own lightside powers and the impact joining the dark side had on his abilities so he can judge very precisely what Yoda would be able to do if he had ever joined the Dark Side.

The powers still had to be there, even if they were channelled to begin with. And that's not even putting aside that Exar Kun's powers were massive by anyone's standpoint, and that he was clearly the best lightsaber fighter of his time.

As I said. That ship was used by lesser force users to blow Ossus up. So it doesn't require that great force ability to do that.

He found an opponing and took it, no one says he just stands around all day, he stands around when he doesn't have to fight.

You really want to tell me that if you take Yoda, Mace and Dooku vs Kun, Dooku would just stand around there thinking "Oh...well...as long as he doen't attack me I won't move an inch away from this position. La la la..." ?

It's not efficient in the fact that it takes a lot of space and did not actually defeat his opponent.

I can't imagine trying to plug another Jedi, such as Mace in there, and have him be able to attack Dooku simultaneously. Yoda takes up a good deal of space with his flips and acrobatics, anyone else in there would have to wait their turn. That's true for all melee attacks to some degree or another. There is simply not enough cohesion for Exar Kun to have to parry more than one or two blows simultaneously.

They can just surround him...move jumps in on (let's say) in front of him and Dooku moves in from behind. How Kun would be able to parry a strike from Yoda (aimed at his feet) from the front side and one of Dooku aimed at his head from the back side simultanously ?

But in the same whim, none of the opponents were quite as good as Kun, now were they? In fact, none of them are even in the same sector as far as force powers or lightsaber skills. In the same whim, we didn't exactly see Kun getting hacked up left and right either.

How would Kun be able to hit faster than 3 Jedi Masters at once ?
And yes...we didn't see Kun getting hacked up because the only two people possible able to do that (Vodo and Ulic) were using a walking stick as a weapon (Vodo) or having the duel against Kun stopped by Ragnos (Ulic)...

Because people are attempting to use the clone wars juxtaposed to things like the movies, books, and comics. When there are so many incongruities that people believe GG is different in the clone wars than he is in ROTS, then there's a problem.

He's different in the Clone Wars than in ROTS because:
a) The CW makers had no information about GG except his outward appearance.
b) He got his chest crushed by Mace.

We know that he has to have the ability to do so, as he wasn't able to defeat Sidious until about a minute into the fight. But still, could he do it to someone faster, stronger, and more attuned than Sidious?

I never said that Mace would be able to do that because that would be saying that Mace would be able to take Kun on his own. But Mace would focus on only attacking Kun's weak spots and that might give Kun some trouble if he has to defend against Yoda and Dooku at the same time.

It's not out of the question, there's a lot of mental and physical aspects that go along with the force, and we've seen crazier things happen in Star Wars. Any place where people can suddenly be more powerful in combat because they allow their emotions to flow through you makes this stuff believable.

Kun was already a darkside when Vodo and he first fought. How would there be a change on Kun'S abilities ?

Yoda has trained hundreds, if not thousands of Jedi during his lifetime, you can't just plug any of them and have it be a "team."

Nope. Not Padawans. Taking a Padawan means that you train him (only HIM) until the point where he is able to pass the trials to become a Jedi Knight. So Yoda did train Dooku from age 13 to his early-mid twenties and Yoda did focus on training Dooku.

Well...I will only answer the things not mentioned in my last post.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
No, probably not. And I doubt even that Makashi is his only style of use. But based on the evidence at hand, I'd be very very cautious to put forth the idea that Dooku is a good aggressive melee combatant capable of complimenting Mace Windu and Yoda. It doesn't seem likely.

Oh...he doesn't have to act very agressive...just as I told. Some precise strikes here and there would give Kun some trouble - if Kun has to deal with Mace and Yoda at the same time.

Wasteful, I would think. And the more I watch Yoda in AOTC (compared to ROTS, where he is more reasonable) the more I think it's all for show. I wouldn't even say that Yoda was trying to kill Dooku at this point, but I won't argue that point because it's nonsense. In any case, Yoda's style relies a lot on acrobatics and flips, etc. While this makes him the lightsaber wielding hummingbird master, it doesn't make him the best sworsman of all time. If anything, Yoda doesn't show much in the way of normal swordsmanship; just flip attacks and parries.

Of course Yoda didn't show much of "normal swordsmanship" because he is 66 centrimetres high and does movements that are impossible for a normal swordsman. Don't you think that (let's say) a midieval knight who would have been able to jump 6 metres high or spin like a spinning top on crack while placing 2 attacks per second on an opponent would have done that ?

Well, for one, did GL write and direct the cartoons? If so, I'm sorely pissed at him for being inconsistant. If he didn't and it's just a Lucasfilm production, hell... I'll take that for what it's worth. Crystal Star is Lucasfilm sanctioned, and it blows.

Correction: Lucas personally watched all CW episodes and approved them - that weren't people of Lucasfilm it was Lucas himself. That actually makes a difference.

Is this the English version? I wouldn't doubt it entirely. You are probably right on this point.

Nope. German version. I couldn't get the english version here (I don't know why but it seems so that it has to wait till my next UK / USA visit). Exact translation would be: "Vastor might have been lightning fast. But Mace was invisible." Than he gives vastor two hits in the face, two to his ribs, a kick on his femoral and a elbow punch to his chin in less than a second.

Did the novel say that Mace used Shatterpoint? It didn't say or imply that he used it in-movie. And I agree with the latter part; Mace must also be able to follow up the action. You can find the weak point of Godzilla, but if you can get close enough to poke out his eyes and shoot his brain, god help you.

The ability itself was never implied in the movie. It was said in the novel. And he used it quite much as an "instant" ability in Shatterpoint so I doubt it needs much time. Exploiting weakpoints is another thing...

Again, you probably recall the battle better than me. My bad for not remembering. But I seemed to recall a battle which was lightsaber to virboshield, and Mace didn't overcome Vastor.

Well...
When they first met Mace wanted to kill Vastor but they didn't find because Mace would have killed him in rage thereby moving to the dark side.
Second was the fight without weapons.
Third time is very much at the end of the book. Mace first "fights" Depa and than Vastor wants to kill him, jumps towards him and Mace force pushs that virbroshield (cutting through Vastors vibroshields, his arms and into his breast).

Well, if Vodo was concerned with his concentration on his staff to Kun's skill (Which he himself admitted was the most impressive he had ever known or taught) why didn't he grab someone else's lightsaber or carry one with him and use it? Obviously he had faith in his staff, even if it was ill-fated faith.

Well...
a) Exar launched an suprise attack on the Senate so basically Vodo didn't know he was coming.
b) He fought Exar into a standstill using his stuff once. So why shouldn't he think to be able to do that again ?

Well, one horrible team was Agen Kolar (a reputable lightsaber duellist and Clone Wars hero and PT era council member), Saessee Tiin (another heavy, who was above Yaddle and several others in the chain of command in Cloak of Deception) Kit Fisto (who was a peer of Obi-Wan, a frontline general in the wars and a Shii-Cho practitioner of considerable skill) and Mace The Windu. Sidious, a relatively minor Sith in the grand scheme of EU things, owned three of these four in seconds, but was defeated by Mace, who is closer to Sidious' level.

Sidious took two of them out without having them moving their weapons. Don't look like they were superior swordfighters. Than he used the fact that Fisto and Mace hadn't much space to fight there. You said it yourself: Mace defeated him when he had enough space to fight.

Then watch ROTS at the beginning: Obi-Wan and Anakin SKywalker together probably have more Force power and teamwork behind them than any one man. But Dooku tooled them (specifically, when he choked Obi and backicked Anakin. He had absolute control of the situation at the point).

Now imagine Yoda and Mace being their instead of Anakin and Obi-Wan. Would Dooku have done better or worse in your oppinion ?
Teamwork is nice but as we see it can't compensate a lack of individual skills. Now take people with huge individual skills who already worked together as teams (Yoda and Dooku for more than a decade at least, Mace and Yoda for 25 years on the Council at least - it can be 4 decades if Mace was Yoda's Padawan). Don't you think Mace / Yoda or Dooku / Yoda would be quite badass teams ?

Because this is talking about potential. It doesn't matter if you are dark or light side practitioner when it comes down to lightsaber combat since the force is used in equal ways by both factions here (aid physical abilities).
Since your attunement with the force has an impact on your lightsaber skills (like Janus said before) you can't simply say the Sith Lords would outduel the PT Jedi because they have shown force powers that seem to be stronger than those of the PT Jedi. Since they used Dark Side abilities.

I think either I mispoke by using attunement or you misread me. Either way, the point remains that Exar Kun used considerable Force powers that obviously are out of the question for the PT era force users as they are. You saw Yoda struggling to overcome Sidious (Which he did overcome him, but not initially). Sidious couldn't dream of duplicating feats on Kun's level. This is obvious. The simplest answer is more often than not the easiest one.

Dooku did know his own lightside powers and the impact joining the dark side had on his abilities so he can judge very precisely what Yoda would be able to do if he had ever joined the Dark Side.

Inconsistant. Dooku may have some insight into his own Sith knowledge, but this does not give him the knowledge to accurately guess Yoda's powers. Don't read too much into the troubled fears of an old man.

As I said. That ship was used by lesser force users to blow Ossus up. So it doesn't require that great force ability to do that.

The amount of power needed to do the effect is tremendous, aided or not. Unless Mace Windu or Yoda or Dooku or even Sidious can duplicate this (even done by "weaker" force users such as the rather amazing Aleema) they are notably inferior.

You really want to tell me that if you take Yoda, Mace and Dooku vs Kun, Dooku would just stand around there thinking "Oh...well...as long as he doen't attack me I won't move an inch away from this position. La la la..." ?

I surely didn't suggest that. But I did say that Dooku's style doesn't appear to mesh well with Vaapad and Ataru on crack.

They can just surround him...move jumps in on (let's say) in front of him and Dooku moves in from behind. How Kun would be able to parry a strike from Yoda (aimed at his feet) from the front side and one of Dooku aimed at his head from the back side simultanously ?

So they get close enough to Kun without being attacked by his considerable Force powers or him reacting, they act in perfect syncrhonization to attack him from different angles, and he just what? Dies? ridiculous. If Exar Kun was this much of an amateur, Vodo would have bludgeoned him to death on the Senate floor.

How would Kun be able to hit faster than 3 Jedi Masters at once ?
And yes...we didn't see Kun getting hacked up because the only two people possible able to do that (Vodo and Ulic) were using a walking stick as a weapon (Vodo) or having the duel against Kun stopped by Ragnos (Ulic)...

Well, considering that Dooku's fastest moves were twirls that you yourself said were unprecise (Relating to the Yoda versus Dooku battle where you said Dooku was visibly inferior to Yoda, which I disagree with) and Mace was awkward and slow in combat with Sidious (Who used an unorthodox style and easily murdered three jedi masters and held his own against Yoda) and that Yoda hasn't disarmed or killed a soul in the series in under two minutes leads me to believe that this team has more flaws than advantages.

He's different in the Clone Wars than in ROTS because:
a) The CW makers had no information about GG except his outward appearance.
b) He got his chest crushed by Mace.

There, you admitted it yourself; The CW Cartoon makers didn't have adequate knowledge. Thus the entire cartoon is subject to suspicion.

I never said that Mace would be able to do that because that would be saying that Mace would be able to take Kun on his own. But Mace would focus on only attacking Kun's weak spots and that might give Kun some trouble if he has to defend against Yoda and Dooku at the same time.

What if Kun's weak points aren't so easy for Mace to center in on, especially considering his two flailing comrades? This is banking on a lot of unknowns.

Kun [b]was already a darkside when Vodo and he first fought. How would there be a change on Kun'S abilities ?[/B]

Good question, but obviously there was.

Nope. Not Padawans. Taking a Padawan means that you train him (only HIM) until the point where he is able to pass the trials to become a Jedi Knight. So Yoda did train Dooku from age 13 to his early-mid twenties and Yoda did focus on training Dooku.

And their styles don't mesh. Dooku taught Qui-Gon, and the latter developed Ataru as well (to a lesser degree) but I would doubt very much that the two are an incredible team. Certainly not enough to defeat Kun. I mean, Obi and Anakin's styles were the most perfectly complimentary in the series and they couldn't together beat Count Dooku nor Sidious.

Nai ill tell you where Kun got the power to beat Vodo. THE DARK SIDE OF THE FORCE. He killed a huge worm creature easily easily easily with the darkside. It multiplied his power by like 5 or more.

Originally posted by Darth Avis
Nai ill tell you where Kun got the power to beat Vodo. THE DARK SIDE OF THE FORCE. He killed a huge worm creature easily easily easily with the darkside. It multiplied his power by like 5 or more.

Don't post crap like this. Please.

actually I have noticed a few ierrors here in what you guys are saying about Kun, for instance, one person said that when him and Vodo first fought, Kun was already dark. False. At that time Kun was merely an apprentice and still lightside, wavering, yes, but still light. Also, he did beat Vodo that time as well (he broke the walking stick, which brings up an intersting point, if Vodo already had his stick broken by Kun, and still went to face him again using another stick, it was obviously his best weapon and he would do no better with a lightsaber).

Another thing, you have been saying that Kun could only blow up a star using Naga Sadow's ship. Again false. It is true that Ulic sent Aleema out using Sadow's ship to blow up a star (which killed her and destroyed Sadow's ship), but again on the assualt on Ossus, that star also blew up, even though Sadow's ship was gone. This leads to the conclusion that either Ulic or Kun blew it up, since Kun was the stronger, I am leaning more towards him blowing it up, so he did blow up a star on his own.

Also, as to your question Nai about how Kun would be able to block one attack in front of him and another attack behind him, well Maul could do it, what makes you think Exar couldn't?

Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
actually I have noticed a few ierrors here in what you guys are saying about Kun, for instance, one person said that when him and Vodo first fought, Kun was already dark. False. At that time Kun was merely an apprentice and still lightside, wavering, yes, but still light. Also, he did beat Vodo that time as well (he broke the walking stick, which brings up an intersting point, if Vodo already had his stick broken by Kun, and still went to face him again using another stick, it was obviously his best weapon and he would do no better with a lightsaber).

a) They didn't fight only two times. In the JA trilogy it is said that Vodo fought against Kun on multiple occassions. The question is when did they fight for the last time before Vodo died on Coruscant ?
b) Vodo didn't went to face Kun. Kun attacked Coruscant to rescue Ulic Quel-Droma.

Another thing, you have been saying that Kun could only blow up a star using Naga Sadow's ship. Again false. It is true that Ulic sent Aleema out using Sadow's ship to blow up a star (which killed her and destroyed Sadow's ship), but again on the assualt on Ossus, that star also blew up, even though Sadow's ship was gone. This leads to the conclusion that either Ulic or Kun blew it up, since Kun was the stronger, I am leaning more towards him blowing it up, so he did blow up a star on his own.

You're wrong here. Kun and Ulic did send Aleema in Sadow's ship to destroy the Cron-Cluster (10 stars really close to each other). Aleema caused the Cron-Cluster to go supernova and that supernova also destroyed Ossus.
So...as you can see Exar and Ulic didn't blow up a single star.

Also, as to your question Nai about how Kun would be able to block one attack in front of him and another attack behind him, well Maul could do it, what makes you think Exar couldn't?

Where was Maul doing that ? Even if he did - do you really want to compare Qui-Gon and Padawan Obi-Wan to Yoda, Mace or Dooku ?

Originally posted by Deus Ex
I think either I mispoke by using attunement or you misread me. Either way, the point remains that Exar Kun used considerable Force powers that obviously are out of the question for the PT era force users as they are. You saw Yoda struggling to overcome Sidious (Which he did overcome him, but not initially). Sidious couldn't dream of duplicating feats on Kun's level. This is obvious. The simplest answer is more often than not the easiest one.

The point is: Are Kun's force powers really out of question for the PT characters or didn't they simply show them because either being Jedi (unable to do what Kun did because of the codex) or Sith who didn't have Kun's knowledge when it comes to Sith magic ?
I don't wanna argue on that point because this will end up with nothing more than speculation.

The amount of power needed to do the effect is tremendous, aided or not. Unless Mace Windu or Yoda or Dooku or even Sidious can duplicate this (even done by "weaker" force users such as the rather amazing Aleema) they are notably inferior.

The amount of power needed to do the effect is unknown by any means so where did you get the idea that it is "tremendous" when Naga Sadow could do that by literally waving his hand without needing a single moment of concentration.
"Master Sadow ? What are you doing there ?"
*Sadow waves his hand*
"I have unleashed the ****ing fury !"

And Aleema is not that amazing...

Well, considering that Dooku's fastest moves were twirls that you yourself said were unprecise (Relating to the Yoda versus Dooku battle where you said Dooku was visibly inferior to Yoda, which I disagree with) and Mace was awkward and slow in combat with Sidious (Who used an unorthodox style and easily murdered three jedi masters and held his own against Yoda) and that Yoda hasn't disarmed or killed a soul in the series in under two minutes leads me to believe that this team has more flaws than advantages.

Erm...
Where did I ever say Dooku wasn't precise somewhere ? I did say he wasn't able to hit Yoda but that's because of Yoda's skill and not because lacking skill on Dooku's side.
Mace was slow versus Sidious - well...I don't know why. Because they simply wanted to make the battle between Yoda and Sidious much faster because Mace being that slow in combat does completely contradict the EU sources.

And well...going by the ROTS script (and as this isn't contradicted within the movies) Yoda disarmed Sidious in their fight before Sidious started throwing stuff at Yoda (and that where less than 2 minutes) and Dooku was defeated (and ran away) after 30 seconds of fighting.

There, you admitted it yourself; The CW Cartoon makers didn't have adequate knowledge. Thus the entire cartoon is subject to suspicion.

If you have the DVD watch it with Hyperspace commentary or commentary of the director. Lucasfilm gave them information about GG and told them to fit him in when they had already finished the cartoon and they re-did the last Episode (which is two times as long as the others for that reason) to get GG somewhere into it. That's hardly convincing me that the CW Cartoon makers didn't have adequate knowledge (considering the entirety of the CW cartoons).

What if Kun's weak points aren't so easy for Mace to center in on, especially considering his two flailing comrades? This is banking on a lot of unknowns.

Mace doesn't have to focus to use his shatterpoint ability. That's told in "Shatterpoint" on multiple occasiosn (when they capture him in the beginning he immediatly sees all weak spots of that captain, and when he ignites his lightsaber before the major battle at the mountains starts). He simply sees the Shatterpoint of anything by looking at it. It's more like an automatic ability than a force ability he has to focus on to use it.

And their styles don't mesh. Dooku taught Qui-Gon, and the latter developed Ataru as well (to a lesser degree) but I would doubt very much that the two are an incredible team. Certainly not enough to defeat Kun. I mean, Obi and Anakin's styles were the most perfectly complimentary in the series and they couldn't together beat Count Dooku nor Sidious.

Oh...well...again...

a)
We don't know what style Dooku used and when. He could have start training Makashi after finishing training with Qui-Gon and could have used Ataru before that. So Dooku could have trained:

- form I (102-89 years BBY) = 13 years
- form IV (89-67 years BBY) = 22 years
- form II (67-19 years BBY) = 48 years

b)
Why you are still comparing Yoda and Dooku or Yoda and Mace to Anakin and Obi-Wan. If Yoda had Mace and Dooku as Padawans (and we know that Dooku was his Padawan) the amount of time he spend with them would be equal to the amount Obi-Wan spend with Anakin. They would be better teamworkers but they would have FAR inferior individual skills seeing that Dooku alone could outduel both at once.

And you said it yourself: Dooku's skill is kind of defensive where Yoda and Mace are using very aggressive styles. So Dooku could work together with Mace fencing while Mace throws the attacks on Kun while Yoda works on his own. I always thought that Master-Padawan teams are quite good. Yet Yoda and Dooku are a Master-Padawan team and I still don't get the reason why their teamwork should suck ?

The point is: Are Kun's force powers really out of question for the PT characters or didn't they simply show them because either being Jedi (unable to do what Kun did because of the codex) or Sith who didn't have Kun's knowledge when it comes to Sith magic ?
I don't wanna argue on that point because this will end up with nothing more than speculation.

Agreed. I'm not gonna argue this one with you. we're not getting anywhere with it.

The amount of power needed to do the effect is unknown by any means so where did you get the idea that it is "tremendous" when Naga Sadow could do that by literally waving his hand without needing a single moment of concentration.
"Master Sadow ? What are you doing there ?"
*Sadow waves his hand*
"I have unleashed the ****ing fury !"

And Aleema is not that amazing...

Erm... the -force- (Read: power, energy, joules, etc.) needed to create such an effect IS tremendous. This is true even for sci-fi-fiction. To put it this way, how much Force power and mastery do you think it takes to life Luke's x-Wing? Yes, Yoda says size matters not, etc. But he also comments on Dooku having grown strong in the Force just by simply throwing some objects of smaller than bus size at him and ripping some rocks from the ceiling. If this is impressive PT era mastery (and indeed, we never see anything much better than it save the pods) simply waving your hand and causing the reaction to make a star go nova -instantly- (Which is bloody well impossible) is immense. No two ways about it.

And sure Aleema is amazing. Duh. DIdn't you read her Wikipedia profile?

Erm...
Where did I ever say Dooku wasn't precise somewhere ? I did say he wasn't able to hit Yoda but that's because of Yoda's skill and not because lacking skill on Dooku's side.

You made a point of saying that certain moves of Dooku's were overextended, that when he blocked a parry behind his back it was more luck than skill, etc. You basically bent his saber skills over a barrel and made Yoda out to be some sabergod, which I don't agree with, because I've watched the fight many many times and to me, Yoda is more grunting and flipping than actual efficient and effective action. half a minute of psychotic action and he was winded, caught in a saberlock, and unable to stop Dooku from dropping the bus-sized object on Obi and Anakin nor stop him from escaping.

Mace was slow versus Sidious - well...I don't know why. Because they simply wanted to make the battle between Yoda and Sidious much faster because Mace being that slow in combat does completely contradict the EU sources.

We could speculate on why forever; point is Mace's style in the flesh isn't neccessarily Vaapad fast, even though you would think so considering the name of the style. Then again, there's a guy at work we call Slick, but he's not very good, either.

And well...going by the ROTS script (and as this isn't contradicted within the movies) Yoda disarmed Sidious in their fight before Sidious started throwing stuff at Yoda (and that where less than 2 minutes) and Dooku was defeated (and ran away) after 30 seconds of fighting.

The script also has Kit Fisto's head on a desk and Dooku protesting his life, implying that the fight was faked. There are a few other descrepancies too. If Dooku was defeated in that fight, GL needs to show it better. And considering we never saw how Yoda disarmed Sidious, I'm still a little bugged by that. Hopefully they will show the footage in the DVD, but for now we don't know just how he did it.

Then again, we don't know how Kun beat vodo apparently, but he still did it. I guess we should take your lead and not pick it apart.

If you have the DVD watch it with Hyperspace commentary or commentary of the director. Lucasfilm gave them information about GG and told them to fit him in when they had already finished the cartoon and they re-did the last Episode (which is two times as long as the others for that reason) to get GG somewhere into it. That's hardly convincing me that the CW Cartoon makers didn't have adequate knowledge (considering the entirety of the CW cartoons).

So Mace punching holes in battledroids is 100% canon? Despite the fact that no jedi in the films (Which are the highest level of canon) ever did such a thing? If that's the case, screw it; we can't ever argue EU again. GL and his company botched everything with the cartoon.

Mace doesn't have to focus to use his shatterpoint ability. That's told in "Shatterpoint" on multiple occasiosn (when they capture him in the beginning he immediatly sees all weak spots of that captain, and when he ignites his lightsaber before the major battle at the mountains starts). He simply sees the Shatterpoint of anything by looking at it. It's more like an automatic ability than a force ability he has to focus on to use it.

You missed my point; seeing a weakness is one thing- being able to get past Kun's considerable force powers, unorthodox and deadly fighting style and working around two other partners to exploit that weakness (assuming there is one to be found even) is sketchy at best.

And keep in mind that Mace's Shatterpoint ability didn't help him against Yoda or Dooku in their duels. It may not be enough here.

b)
Why you are still comparing Yoda and Dooku or Yoda and Mace to Anakin and Obi-Wan. If Yoda had Mace and Dooku as Padawans (and we know that Dooku was his Padawan) the amount of time he spend with them would be equal to the amount Obi-Wan spend with Anakin. They would be better teamworkers but they would have FAR inferior individual skills seeing that Dooku alone could outduel both at once.

Well, since you haven't really proven to me that they would be a better team, and by the looks of things they wouldn't be, why should I believe that Mace, Dooku and Yoda would be more cohesive than Obi-Wan and Anakin? Why do I think Obi and Annie were a good team? Well, they complimented each other in battle. They moved around one another, and could provide an adequate defense on a battlefield, as well as having a good understanding of one another.

Dooku is a Sith, for one. He was proud, a child prodigy, and master of a dueling-type fencing style. He never works with a partner and indeed, never uses two blades. He doesn't appear to be partner material, and there's no evidence or clear proof otherwise.

Mace wasn't a good enough partner to protect the jedi who accompanied him to fight Sidious. You might say "Well, Yoda was his master! They would work together better!". Well... where does it say Yoda mentored Mace any more than he mentored anyone else? Where does it say that mace had less practice and teamwork with other council member jedi than with these? In short, how would Mace Windu be known throughout the order as so good with a lightsaber if he never sparred or worked with anyone other than Yoda?

And Yoda has not shown considerable teamwork, either. His style requires too much room. As you said yourself, he's not built normally, and he can't fight normally. So basically you have three different fighting styles (One of which is needing lots of room and Force powers and going full offense, one of which is relying on precise, methodical motions and movements, and never really pressing the attack, and a third which is Juyo with the Shatterpoint technique added on) and they will neccessarily mesh good enough to overcome someone who is better than any single one of them?

And you said it yourself: Dooku's skill is kind of defensive where Yoda and Mace are using very aggressive styles. So Dooku could work together with Mace fencing while Mace throws the attacks on Kun while Yoda works on his own. I always thought that Master-Padawan teams are quite good. Yet Yoda and Dooku are a Master-Padawan team and I still don't get the reason why their teamwork should suck ?

Do you honestly see Yoda, Mace, and Dooku working like magic to defend one another, and still press the attack to Exar Kun without getting obliterated either by his considerable saber skills and/or his dark Force mastery?

I believe someone couldn't see how Exar could stalemate Vodo and then defeat him a week later. Well, if you did your homework, you'd the two fights are several years apart.

a) They didn't fight only two times. In the JA trilogy it is said that Vodo fought against Kun on multiple occassions. The question is when did they fight for the last time before Vodo died on Coruscant ?

Why did it matter? It depicted two occassions of them fighting, and in the second occassion he greatly improved to the point where Vodo died within seconds. To throw around other speculation and trying to undermine his ability is being pointless and the mark of someone grasping at straws.

b) Vodo didn't went to face Kun. Kun attacked Coruscant to rescue Ulic Quel-Droma.

Vodo had one walking stick broken, he then got another one. And it's not like lightsabers are huge and cumbersome objects either. If he was far more proficient with a lightsaber as compared to the walking stick, he wouldn't keep insisting on using a walking stick, especially to an event as important as he was attending.

Where was Maul doing that ? Even if he did - do you really want to compare Qui-Gon and Padawan Obi-Wan to Yoda, Mace or Dooku ?

It's a good example of three people with similar force and saber skills, but the one guy was able to hold off both. And Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon gel very well together. The actual act of defending against two foes, especially with a double-bladed saber, is not as difficult as you are making it seem. You're expecting three individuals of completely different style to manage to wave and cut their way through each others sabers and Kun's sabers and force powers to simultaneously gang up on him? That's hard.

how did Kun hold back the hundreds to thousands of jedi? (asking)

I personally haven't seen any proof that Exar held back THOUSANDS, but, he did gain a lot of power from his Sith Amulet. He also had the Massassi temples which focus dark side energy. Add that to having the power of an entire species, its possible. He also didn't hold them back for very long. They killed his physical body not knowing he had gone to the temple.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Erm... the -force- (Read: power, energy, joules, etc.) needed to create such an effect IS tremendous. This is true even for sci-fi-fiction. To put it this way, how much Force power and mastery do you think it takes to life Luke's x-Wing? Yes, Yoda says size matters not, etc. But he also comments on Dooku having grown strong in the Force just by simply throwing some objects of smaller than bus size at him and ripping some rocks from the ceiling. If this is impressive PT era mastery (and indeed, we never see anything much better than it save the pods) simply waving your hand and causing the reaction to make a star go nova -instantly- (Which is bloody well impossible) is immense. No two ways about it.

Janus...how the hell can you argue what amount of force is needed to rip the core of a star out (that's what Sadow did) if you can't tell how much Sadow's ship multiplies the actual force power used ? Sadow could have used a simple force push to blow that star up (having the push multiplied in terms of power). We don't know...
Since he simply waved his hand and the star detonates it's pretty much unusual to think that he used some "tremendous" amount of force powers because if he did he would have had to focus at least a little bit on what he did instead of simply moving his hand. That's simply overestimating the powers of the ancient Sith by far...

And sure Aleema is amazing. Duh. DIdn't you read her Wikipedia profile?

What did she ever do besides creating illusions ? Oh...yes...ripping the core from a sun (again using Sadow's ship augmenting her powers and some chrystals from Sadow doing the same thing) and killing herself because not being able to control the power she had unleased. Doesn't sound very "amazing" to me.

You made a point of saying that certain moves of Dooku's were overextended, that when he blocked a parry behind his back it was more luck than skill, etc. You basically bent his saber skills over a barrel and made Yoda out to be some sabergod, which I don't agree with, because I've watched the fight many many times and to me, Yoda is more grunting and flipping than actual efficient and effective action. half a minute of psychotic action and he was winded, caught in a saberlock, and unable to stop Dooku from dropping the bus-sized object on Obi and Anakin nor stop him from escaping.

I didn't bent Dooku's saber skills over the barrel - that's what Lucas did writing the AotC script. Not my fault.

We could speculate on why forever; point is Mace's style in the flesh isn't neccessarily Vaapad fast, even though you would think so considering the name of the style. Then again, there's a guy at work we call Slick, but he's not very good, either.

The style is neccessarily Vaapad fast because this exactly is how it's descriped in Shatterpoint when Depa is using it.

So Mace punching holes in battledroids is 100% canon? Despite the fact that no jedi in the films (Which are the highest level of canon) ever did such a thing? If that's the case, screw it; we can't ever argue EU again. GL and his company botched everything with the cartoon.

Yes...Mace punching holes in battledroids is 100 % canon. And please...it is harder to believe for you that Mace with 50 years of martial arts training aiding his natural strength with the force can hammer through battledroids than to believe that Naga Sadow can blow up a star with a handmovement ?
I've seen a Kung Fu master getting a Katana pressed against he's throat and he was simply walking forward thereby destroying the Katana. If normal humans in reality can do that why the hell wouldn't Mace Windu be able to punch through metal ?

Well, since you haven't really proven to me that they would be a better team, and by the looks of things they wouldn't be, why should I believe that Mace, Dooku and Yoda would be more cohesive than Obi-Wan and Anakin? Why do I think Obi and Annie were a good team? Well, they complimented each other in battle. They moved around one another, and could provide an adequate defense on a battlefield, as well as having a good understanding of one another.

Of course they would be better because of the simple fact that Dooku on his own is better than Anakin and Obi-Wan together. How would adding two other masters would make that team weaker than Anakin and Obi-Wan ?!

Dooku is a Sith, for one. He was proud, a child prodigy, and master of a dueling-type fencing style. He never works with a partner and indeed, never uses two blades. He doesn't appear to be partner material, and there's no evidence or clear proof otherwise.

Dooku was a Jedi for more than 6 decades of his life. How would he not be "partner material". Do you think he survived the Battle of Galidraan by running around there on his own obliterating dozens of Mandalorians ?

Mace wasn't a good enough partner to protect the jedi who accompanied him to fight Sidious. You might say "Well, Yoda was his master! They would work together better!". Well... where does it say Yoda mentored Mace any more than he mentored anyone else? Where does it say that mace had less practice and teamwork with other council member jedi than with these? In short, how would Mace Windu be known throughout the order as so good with a lightsaber if he never sparred or worked with anyone other than Yoda?

Now it's Mace fault that Jedi Masters aren't able to protect themselves against a Sith Lord ? Mace worked quite well together with Obi-Wan when they fought back on back in the Geonosis arena. If you read Shatterpoint he's quite the teamworker together with Depa Billaba (his former Padawan).
And how would Mace Windu be known throughout the order to be that good ? If you sit in the Council being 28 years old having invented your own fighting style being 13 years old and everybody knows that how would people not see you as "good" ?

And Yoda has not shown considerable teamwork, either. His style requires too much room. As you said yourself, he's not built normally, and he can't fight normally. So basically you have three different fighting styles (One of which is needing lots of room and Force powers and going full offense, one of which is relying on precise, methodical motions and movements, and never really pressing the attack, and a third which is Juyo with the Shatterpoint technique added on) and they will neccessarily mesh good enough to overcome someone who is better than any single one of them?

Vaapad is hardly Juyo with Shatterpoint. Sorry...that's contradicting every single thing said about it. Next you contradict yourself on "Master-Padawan" teams ("Fighting better together than normal teams of force users" <- your words) just to give Exar a chance in melee combat while saying I'm undermining Kun's abilities ? Sorry...but you make Yoda, Mace and Dooku look like freaking Younglings who would stand in each others way more than developing at least some kind of teamwork (considering the fact that they know each other for more than 40 years).

Do you honestly see Yoda, Mace, and Dooku working like magic to defend one another, and still press the attack to Exar Kun without getting obliterated either by his considerable saber skills and/or his dark Force mastery?

I wonder how you see Kun "obliterating" even one of them not to mention obliterating all three of them at once...

Janus...how the hell can you argue what amount of force is needed to rip the core of a star out (that's what Sadow did) if you can't tell how much Sadow's ship multiplies the actual force power used ? Sadow could have used a simple force push to blow that star up (having the push multiplied in terms of power). We don't know...
Since he simply waved his hand and the star detonates it's pretty much unusual to think that he used some "tremendous" amount of force powers because if he did he would have had to focus at least a little bit on what he did instead of simply moving his hand. That's simply overestimating the powers of the ancient Sith by far...

I was speaking physically. I'm no physics expert or anything, but the amount of force or energy (read: NOT SW Force power) to do such an act which is thought to be virtually impossible considering the stars go nova -instantly- IS tremendous. Period!

What did she ever do besides creating illusions ? Oh...yes...ripping the core from a sun (again using Sadow's ship augmenting her powers and some chrystals from Sadow doing the same thing) and killing herself because not being able to control the power she had unleased. Doesn't sound very "amazing" to me.

You obviously lost your sense of humor this morning. I was kidding.

I didn't bent Dooku's saber skills over the barrel - that's what Lucas did writing the AotC script. Not my fault.

No, your accessment of the battle before you even related the script to us bent his skills over the barrel. You said that you watched the fight frame by frame and that Dooku was visibly inferior. You never said you read the script and thus Yoda must be superior. you made a point to me about Dooku being off since you watched it frame for frame. Which is it?

The style is neccessarily Vaapad fast because this exactly is how it's descriped in Shatterpoint when Depa is using it.

And in some books a heart can beat like a trapped bird in a cage in one's chest... but does that make it neccessarily so? Come on now. Literary analogies can cut either way. If you're basing your entire view of Vaapad on instant Shatterpoint and super fast movements, why did Mace lose to Dooku or Yoda?

Yes...Mace punching holes in battledroids is 100 % canon. And please...it is harder to believe for you that Mace with 50 years of martial arts training aiding his natural strength with the force can hammer through battledroids than to believe that Naga Sadow can blow up a star with a handmovement ?
I've seen a Kung Fu master getting a Katana pressed against he's throat and he was simply walking forward thereby destroying the Katana. If normal humans in reality can do that why the hell wouldn't Mace Windu be able to punch through metal ?

Well, because it's pretty much stupid, really. If jedi can punch like that, why do they need lightsabers? Why can't they all deflect blasts with their hand and just use martial arts on everyone? Hell, it would make more sense than having a deadly energy blade!

Of course they would be better because of the simple fact that Dooku on his own is better than Anakin and Obi-Wan together. How would adding two other masters would make that team weaker than Anakin and Obi-Wan ?!

So you're assuming that this team is better as a team because its parts are better by themselves, is that it?

Dooku was a Jedi for more than 6 decades of his life. How would he not be "partner material". Do you think he survived the Battle of Galidraan by running around there on his own obliterating dozens of Mandalorians ?

First, Jedi have already shown bad partnership skills in the series. If you want to convince me that Dooku is a good partner, you need to cite something. Otherwise, the running track of the jedi in general shows very -little- teamwork and a whole lot of single, one-man army type shit.

Second, do you even have the specifics of that battle? From what source? Did Dooku fight personally, or did he lead troops? Did he work with other jedi flawlessly? Does this help your case against Kun at all?

Now it's Mace fault that Jedi Masters aren't able to protect themselves against a Sith Lord ? Mace worked quite well together with Obi-Wan when they fought back on back in the Geonosis arena. If you read Shatterpoint he's quite the teamworker together with Depa Billaba (his former Padawan).

Well, Mace stepped back the moment Sidious attacked. If he had come forward and played offensively, his men might have survived longer than they did. But he stepped back from Sidious. This doesn't show me teamwork, and it sure as hell makes me wonder how Mace is gonna react when he sees Exar Kun. And Depa's style compliments his own because he made it! If Yoda made Makashi and Vaapad and this battle were taking place, I'd be willing to see that. But that's not the case.

And how would Mace Windu be known throughout the order to be that good ? If you sit in the Council being 28 years old having invented your own fighting style being 13 years old and everybody knows that how would people not see you as "good" ?

I know that him creating his own style wows you to the point of hating anyone not PT era, Nai... but really, you didn't answer my question- how did Yoda mentor Mace any more than he mentored anyone else?

Vaapad is hardly Juyo with Shatterpoint. Sorry...that's contradicting every single thing said about it.

Elaborate on this. Vaapad is a mindset. It's said in Shatterpoint, straight out. It's never said that Vaapad is neccessarily a whole new style entirely that can't be possibly known or countered, since you yourself argued that Kun's style (Which IS reputed to be deadly, fast, and unreplicated and unknown by all else but him, Ulic, and his dead enemies) can be learned by the three PT jedi because it relies on basics... how does this compute?

Next you contradict yourself on "Master-Padawan" teams ("Fighting better together than normal teams of force users" <- your words) just to give Exar a chance in melee combat while saying I'm undermining Kun's abilities ? Sorry...but you make Yoda, Mace and Dooku look like freaking Younglings who would stand in each others way more than developing at least some kind of teamwork (considering the fact that they know each other for more than 40 years).

I -DID- say that Master-padawan teams work well together, especially when both are lightside, since the dark side clouds those bonds. Naturally, they would have a bond or empathy a step above the normal team.

But you're forgetting that Mace shares that bond with Depa already, and that Dooku is a Sith. He does not share a bond with Yoda anymore. And while I do believe that such a bond does help its users, there is no evidence of it existing here in this case, nor anything to say it would help them overcome Kun.

I wonder how you see Kun "obliterating" even one of them not to mention obliterating all three of them at once...

Well, it's certainly not like you suggested: with Kun standing there like a moron while these force users charge him from different directions and different angles and attack all at the same time so perfectly that he can't evade or take measures of defense. No, YOU are the one underrating Kun as a fighter of legendary skill and giving way too much credit to the PT jedi. Period.

IF three jedi swing at the same time, there is no way anyone could block it, unless they had more than one blade, but right after the first miss the jedi will swing again in a different direction. There is no way anyone could evade 3 attacks, powerful or not.

There is no way these three Jedi will work together in any way worth noting. Let alone stand good enough to do something like that. There is just no way.