Yoda and Windu vs. Exar Kun

How far do you think could Exar Kun develop above Yoda, Dooku and Mace in terms of normal force powers and lightsaber skills ? He simply didn't have time to develop his fighting skills that far and he didn't have to fight against 2 people being far inferior to him in terms of lightsaber combat (like Dooku vs Anakin and Obi-Wan), he's facing three expert force users and lightsaber combatants here.

Well, despite being a politician and a closet Sith, Sidious developed lightsaber skills to rival Yoda's in melee combat, and Force mastery nearly on par. In ROTS, Sidious can match Yoda blow for blow despite being on that little pod. Yoda is better, but not by that much. And Exar Kun would annihilate Sidious easily. If Yoda can't hang with Sidious and Sidious is well below Exar Kun (or any ancient Sith) how can you argue that Yoda and those beneath him (as you have argued, both Mace and Dooku are beneath him, if slightly) will pose so much as a great threat?

And where does the idea come that three jedi like Dooku, Yoda, and Mace even compliment one another good enough to batter down Exar Kun's lightning quick strikes? When you're swinging a blade made of energy that is able to make a space age blast door melt in on itself, you sure as hell don't mesh like three kids beating up one kid. Dooku's style is pretty methodical and efficient, but to counter both of Anakin and Obi-Wan's attacks (See ROTS first few strikes) he gave ground. Dooku never presses the attack; he never fights aggressively in the movies. If Exar Kun puts the heat on, Dooku's gonna backpedal. And in any case, he isn't the best partner in the world.

Second, Yoda's fighting style requires a LOT of room. And it's not exactly efficient, since Yoda wasn't able to disarm Dooku or Sidious in lightsaber combat despite being 900 years old and perhaps the best swordsman in the PT era. You keep acting like those extra three hundred years make a world of difference, and yet Yoda has next to nothing to show for it. If he can't overcome and kill two Sith lords who are easily a tenth of his age, he isn't as good as his age should suggest.

Lastly, Mace hasn't once demonstrated actually moving like a Vaapad, with the exception of his deflecting a gunship's blasts with two lightsabers. If anything, in the movies he moves slowly and methodically too. And his Shatterpoint isn't invincible; it took a decent length of time for him to find Depa's Shatterpoint, and he trained her. Also, he wasn't easily able to overcome Vastor who was essentially an untrained Force sensitive. (Granted, perhaps the meanest mother in the valley, but still, no Sith or jedi) Mace is good, but not that good. He would not last very long against Exar Kun, and with Yoda needing ridiculous room, not being able to overcome even PT era saber users in under a minute, and Dooku easily being put on the defensive, this is a very very terrible team. Think about that.

It's [b]said in the comic that Vodo used the force to make his stick able to parry lightsaber hits - so he had to use concentration to do that.[/B]

Leaping to conclusions. Where did it say or show that Vodo was concentrating? Was Dooku concentrating when he choked Obi-Wan and backkicked Aakin Skywalker? Didn't appear to. Was Sidious concentrating when he was levitating three pods at once? Nope. Hell, even Obi-Wan dropped a piece of scrap on some Magnaguards without a moment's hesitation. What makes you think Vodo needs to concentrate for this? What makes you think concentration is key to this debate?

It would still force you to just use defensive manouvers and that is cutting down your opportunities. Isn't it ?

Tell that to Anakin.

Seriously... PLaying defensive can help a lesser combatant live longer. Simply give ground and play efficient. Obviously Vodo wasn't given the opportunity to do either. He was destroyed.

Would you be able to defeat somebody who wears an armor that can't be penetrated / damaged with your weapon ?

Smack him on the head. That shit will hurt. Haven'y you ever been attacked by an old man?

If Vodo was able to stalemate Kun once why would he get wasted by the same person now ? As I said: Kun hat no time to develop his lightsaber skills much and that means that Vodo was weaker than in the duel before. Why ? Because he had to use concentration to resist Kun's Sith magic ? Or do you see any other reason

First off, why are you contesting what is already there? Kun beat Vodo. It's done. Trying to undermine this fight is pointless, and just goes to show you can't prove a thing for Yoda, Mace, or even Dooku. As a team, they would suck something fierce. But instead you're seeking to undermine Kun. This sounds suspiciously like ER in the Ragnos versus Revan thread.

Where did I ever agree with the older Jedi being superior to the newer ones ? I've argued on that point on any possible occasions because I dislike the idea behind it and it contradicts pretty much everything in the SW universe.

This is news to me.

)The other half in a bit)

Now check out the five vs. Kun thread. A marvelous piece of work, that.

Well, since yoda requires more room to become an effecient fighter, him losing to sidious makes sense since he had very little room to do anything at all while sidious stood in the middle and just defended himself. ANd the dooku vs Yoda fight was what? less than a minute before dooku escaped.. If the fight went on any longer dooku would lose.
So he might just posibbly be as good as Nai suggests.

"Wars don't make people great." - Yoda's words. And now have a look at it: Who are the greatest swordfighters of the order ? Yoda, Mace, Dooku - all diplomats, all having very little fighting experience but they all would be able to kick people like Anakin and Obi-Wan.

Greatest swordfithers of the order? All diplomats? Nai, this needs elaboration. Since when did the PT jedi become amazing in the grand scheme of things? Does your stance change entirely whenever Yoda is considered? Be honest with me.

And by the way: Which "older Jedi" there are with "battlefield" experience ? Arca Jeth, Ulic and Cay Quel-Droma, Nomi Sunrider ? Ulic has seen many battlefields but still he wasn't able to defeat Kun who has never participated in any fights to that point. And the KotoR time Jedi can be excluded since Revan used special units and assasins against them - they have even less "battlefield" experience than the PT Jedi.

This is Illustrious' point here. I'm not about to argue with you on this. You are so far into the PT Yoda lovers' camp that you're, as I like to say, sorting the firewood and spreading their bedrolls. I'm not sure what it was that changed your overall view, but it's a bit distressing. It's sounding more and more like bias and less and less like old rational Nai Fohl.

Whoa...
a) I was talking about spellcasting in general. If you can show me any source where a spellcaster has to concentrate on a spell after casting it I would really be astonished.
b) Show me the proof that Kun needed concentration [b]after he did cast the spell...[/B]

This is a nonissue. Spellcasting in the traditional fantasy flair doesn't apply here. This is Star Wars, not Dungeons and Dragons. Exar Kun does not have to pass a Concentration roll and rub the rabbit's paw in his left hand while crushing a gem in the right to make an attack. Sith magic is apparently Dark Side refined powers. Was there an instance where Exar Kun stopped to prepare the spell to freeze the entire senate? Did it say clearly that Exar Kun had to concentrate or didn't? Did it say that Vodo had to concentrate or didn't? Honestly, if this is the focal point of your argument, you need to take a look at your own group; Yoda closes his eyes and concentrates for damn near -everything-. I could argue that Dooku and Mace would be pushed back by Kun's lightning and Yoda would be forced to drop his saber and absorb it, assuming he could. Exar Kun's Force powers dwarf Sidious' by far, and Yoda could defeat Sidious, but at a high cost via force battles.

So before you go into another "omfg kun iz overrated" phase, look to the jedi and make a good argument FOR them.

This is getting even more unlogic because now you don't only have Kun toying with a person who fought him into a standstill just a short time before...no...now he's doing that [b]while concentrating on freezing thousands of people. Sorry...that wouldn't work. [/B]

If you're gonna poo-poo this theory, at least try and disprove it soundly. Just saying "it doesn't work" doesn't convince me really.

Sorry...freeze thousands of persons and destroy a person who had given you a good fight just a short time before is simply impossible at least unlogical storytelling at it's best.

Actually, I was under the impression that Exar Kun beat Vodo before, as an apprentice. I'll double check that one.

You're comparing different individuals while I was comparing the same individual at different times. Kun was on Ulic's level in terms of lightsaber combat and suddenly he's god without having had any additional practice ? Nice try.

Third verse, same as the first.

Actually Kun is my favourite character - not Yoda. But I don't give my favourite characters abilities they don't have. That is what a fanboy would do.

You are coming off more and more as a Yoda fanboy. Putting forth the idea that Yoda would beat Ragnos in melee combat was perhaps the height of you overestimating Yoda's abilities. Considering that your faith i the little green jedi master is bordering on unrealistic, you have yet to give us some insight as to why Yoda and his fellow PT era saber users would even work well as a team and defeat someone of Kun's magnitutde.

Opponents close to his skill level ? It is said in the comics (again) that Kun only saw Ulic as a threat (on the Sith side) while on the Jedi's side only Vodo, Cay Quel-Droma and Nomi Sunrider might have been a threat to him. And where did he kill many Jedi in actual combat ?

Still...how you're going to compare Vodo to Yoda ? You simply assumed that they are very similar. To use your own words: Substantiate it - because it's only an assumption and seeing that Yoda has 300 years more experience with the force, more frontline experience and fought quite skilled lightsaber duellists (Dooku, Mace) it's quite a stupid assumption.

None of those is anywear near Ragnos, Sadow, Kressh or Kun ? Powerwise you are right. In melee combat ? I doubt it. Are the people you named powerful enough to avoid melee combat with Dooku, Mace or Yoda ? Debateable...

He wouldn't be able to do that in the blink of an eye...and that is what he needs to do.

Kun's style was developed out of the existing lightsaber forms like any other style. So most likely all three of them would be able to explore known movements in Kun's style. I simply see a limit somewhere in developing "saberskills" that can't be crossed. Dooku, Mace and Yoda are quite near that limit and even Kun won't be able to get across it. So his only chance is killing them with far superior force powers - does he have them ? Using your own idea than Vodo could resist Kun's Sith magic without needing any concentration Yoda, Mace and Dooku would be able to do that too and again Kun would get his ass kicked.

Or wait...I will simply throw d20 stats in here: Kun's force defence 21, Yoda's affect mind ability 25. Yoda uses mind trick on Kun and Kun surrenders without any fight. This is getting ugly... [/B][/QUOTE]

Hell, I missed half of the post. Well, screw it. I'm at work. I'm entitled to goof.

Pretty good argument you got going here, but the word fanboy is like a low blow, and for Kun to beat all three masters who know each other's fighting tendencies is a little extreme, although I'm sure you'll think of something. 🙄

You're right. Fanboy is a harsh title. But well-earned around these parts, for sure. I used to be a Revan fanboy until I was born again.

Anyways, about this line:

Kun's style was developed out of the existing lightsaber forms like any other style.

Some proof for this?

So most likely all three of them would be able to explore known movements in Kun's style.

Conclusion based on earlier unproven premise. Show us how all three of them would be able to explore Kun's style before dying a quick death.

I simply see a limit somewhere in developing "saberskills" that can't be crossed.

This is a ridiculous assumption. For one, no one being could ever come close to the limit of developed melee attacks. Why? Well, you're telling me that Dooku, Yoda, and Mace have at least come close to learning how to deal with every single possible combination of movements the humanoid body can make with a weapon. Can you even give me a definate number of such movements? I highly doubt it. So how can they reach a limit in their time of relative peace on something that is near limitless?

Dooku, Mace and Yoda are quite near that limit and even Kun won't be able to get across it.

Read above. This doesn't make sense.

So his only chance is killing them with far superior force powers - does he have them ?

Now based on your earlier, unproven and unsound premise, you have concluded that Kun cannot defeat them possibly at all in saber combat and absolutely MUST use the Force. Next you'll be arguing Kun's Force mastery down to nothing, despite the fact that his ionized air particles (read: ghost 4,000 years after his death) could wipe its ass with Luke Skywalker.

Using your own idea than Vodo could resist Kun's Sith magic without needing any concentration Yoda, Mace and Dooku would be able to do that too and again Kun would get his ass kicked.

No, this doesn't follow. You need to prove to us that all three of them have the neccessary capability to resist such an attack, assuming it ever comes into play. And even if Yoda and perhaps Dooku could resist a freeze attack, you cannot assume that Exar Kun would lose. If that is his only Force power, he would be a poor excuse for a Sith lord, no?

Wow, I missed a good smackdown, I guess I'll tag in for the next one.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Well, despite being a politician and a closet Sith, Sidious developed lightsaber skills to rival Yoda's in melee combat, and Force mastery nearly on par. In ROTS, Sidious can match Yoda blow for blow despite being on that little pod. Yoda is better, but not by that much. And Exar Kun would annihilate Sidious easily. If Yoda can't hang with Sidious and Sidious is well below Exar Kun (or any ancient Sith) how can you argue that Yoda and those beneath him (as you have argued, both Mace and Dooku are beneath him, if slightly) will pose so much as a great threat?

Sorry Janus...
The one and only point that makes you keep the ancient Sith Lords in higher regard than Sidious is there special force abilities. Sadow could blow up planets - Ragnos was even greater and Kun...?
What did Kun ever do that "great" ? He has frozen the Senate. We know there is a forbidden Jedi technique called Moricho taught by Yaddle that is able to do exactly the same. Now...do you think that Yaddle is very powerful ? I doubt it.
That leaves the draining of the Massasi race. We know that Kun needed a ritual and the ruins on Yavin 4 to do that. It took him quite some time. Now we have dark siders (Revan and the Exile) with the possibility to develop "death field" knowledge which is exactly the same thing doing less damage to less individuals and they can use that "instant".

So...we have no proof that Kun is more powerful than the Exile, Revan or Yaddle in terms of force powers and that would make him weaker than you think.

And where does the idea come that three jedi like Dooku, Yoda, and Mace even compliment one another good enough to batter down Exar Kun's lightning quick strikes? When you're swinging a blade made of energy that is able to make a space age blast door melt in on itself, you sure as hell don't mesh like three kids beating up one kid. Dooku's style is pretty methodical and efficient, but to counter both of Anakin and Obi-Wan's attacks (See ROTS first few strikes) he gave ground. Dooku never presses the attack; he never fights aggressively in the movies. If Exar Kun puts the heat on, Dooku's gonna backpedal. And in any case, he isn't the best partner in the world.

Dooku doesn't need to fight aggressively since his form relys on precission. Of course he will go backpedal if Kun goes mad on him but would Kun be able to put Dooku out of the fight or disarm / kill him fast ? Debateable...even in a 1vs1 situation but this is 3vs1 against Kun.

Second, Yoda's fighting style requires a LOT of room. And it's not exactly efficient, since Yoda wasn't able to disarm Dooku or Sidious in lightsaber combat despite being 900 years old and perhaps the best swordsman in the PT era. You keep acting like those extra three hundred years make a world of difference, and yet Yoda has next to nothing to show for it. If he can't overcome and kill two Sith lords who are easily a tenth of his age, he isn't as good as his age should suggest.

Sure Yoda's fighting style requires a lot of room. But saying it's not effiecient...well...

He's pressing everybody he fights against in total defense. That's what happened to Dooku and it happened to Sidious (despite the fact that Sidious had the superior position). And 300 years make a difference of exactly 300 years - that's 150 % Vodo. And keep in mind that Vodo fought Kun into a standstill with a walking stick once. What would a creature with 50 % more experience and a lightsaber do to Kun ? Getting wasted ? Most likely not...

And please. Sidious - from Lucas own point of view - is the ultimate Sith Lord, the most powerful Sith of them all. From the EU point of view this is BS but from the EU point of view the people are far more powerful than shown in the movies (e.g. Mace in Shatterpoint and the Clone War cartoon). So comparing movie characters to EU characters while using only things seen in the movies is unfair - and you know that.

Lastly, Mace hasn't once demonstrated actually moving like a Vaapad, with the exception of his deflecting a gunship's blasts with two lightsabers. If anything, in the movies he moves slowly and methodically too. And his Shatterpoint isn't invincible; it took a decent length of time for him to find Depa's Shatterpoint, and he trained her. Also, he wasn't easily able to overcome Vastor who was essentially an untrained Force sensitive. (Granted, perhaps the meanest mother in the valley, but still, no Sith or jedi) Mace is good, but not that good. He would not last very long against Exar Kun, and with Yoda needing ridiculous room, not being able to overcome even PT era saber users in under a minute, and Dooku easily being put on the defensive, this is a very very terrible team. Think about that.

Wrong. Mace displayed his movement abilities best in his fight against Kar Vastor when he hits the guy more than 6 times in less than a second. Another display of that ability would be the clone war cartoon scene on Dantooine where he destroys the droids.
And Mace "Shatterpoint" ability is an instant ability. He simply looks at things and see the Shatterpoint. Where did you get the idea that it took him a decent length ?

a) He knew Depa's Shatterpoint before even haved reach her (making himself a hostage).
b) He knew Kar Vastors Shatterpoint instantly (that's why he acted like he did).
c) In the duel with Sidious he found Sidious Shatterpoint in less than a minute.

And he did fight Vastor without using his lightsaber and without using force powers first and put a decent fight up. Later it took Mace less than 5 seconds to disable Vastor and that was a point where Mace had put a lightsaber through his abdomen and was still injured from the previous battles.

Leaping to conclusions. Where did it say or show that Vodo was concentrating? Was Dooku concentrating when he choked Obi-Wan and backkicked Aakin Skywalker? Didn't appear to. Was Sidious concentrating when he was levitating three pods at once? Nope. Hell, even Obi-Wan dropped a piece of scrap on some Magnaguards without a moment's hesitation. What makes you think Vodo needs to concentrate for this? What makes you think concentration is key to this debate?

It requires a constant force use to keep that stick able to deflect lightsaber attacks. So...he has to concentrate on that (if only a little bit).

Seriously... PLaying defensive can help a lesser combatant live longer. Simply give ground and play efficient. Obviously Vodo wasn't given the opportunity to do either. He was destroyed.

Still the fact remains that he was "destroyed" by somebody he fought into a standstill a short time before. Explanation for this being what ? Kun developing supernatural force powers and developing into a god in months ?

First off, why are you contesting what is already there? Kun beat Vodo. It's done. Trying to undermine this fight is pointless, and just goes to show you can't prove a thing for Yoda, Mace, or even Dooku. As a team, they would suck something fierce. But instead you're seeking to undermine Kun. This sounds suspiciously like ER in the Ragnos versus Revan thread.

Oh please Janus. On the same level you can say "Mace beat Sidious - it's done" or "Sidious beat Yoda - it's done". Since when do circumstances of a fight don't count here anymore ?
I'm not seeking to undermine Kun I'm just thinking of the situation and sorry...I don't believe that Person A would suddenly be able to simply overpower Person B within seconds if Person B did put up a good fight to Person A only a short period of time before. That's out of any logic...

That's like saying that Anakin would be able to destroy Dooku 2 months after their fight on Geonosis. How should that happen ? There must be a reason for that somewhere and the only reason for that fact in this case seems to that Vodo was not able to give Kun all he had since Kun wouldn't have been able to develop his own skills that far in such a short amount of time...

It will take a jedi master like yoda to figure out who will win this debate.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Greatest swordfithers of the order? All diplomats? Nai, this needs elaboration. Since when did the PT jedi become amazing in the grand scheme of things? Does your stance change entirely whenever Yoda is considered? Be honest with me.

Sorry...I never changed my oppinion on that topic. For me the Jedi did always grow stronger while the Sith grew weaker over time. The simple reason for this is that the Sith try to hide knowledge from their students while the Jedi learn everything their ancestors did learn and discover new knowlede. So...the PT Jedi are the "top" of the all time Jedi order (with NJO as the only exception).

Did I ever say something different ? I don't think so.

This is Illustrious' point here. I'm not about to argue with you on this. You are so far into the PT Yoda lovers' camp that you're, as I like to say, sorting the firewood and spreading their bedrolls. I'm not sure what it was that changed your overall view, but it's a bit distressing. It's sounding more and more like bias and less and less like old rational Nai Fohl.

Janus you know that I'm quite well informed when it comes down to SW history and I have never seen somebody killing more than 5 force users (confirmed kills). In fact the list of the biggest Jedi killers would be:

1) Nihilus (for destroying an entire planet filled with force users)
2) Vader (Jedi Purge)
3) Sidious (killing 4 Jedi Masters)
4) Grievous

Ulic Quel-Droma killed Warb Null, Cay Quel-Droma and Satal Keeto
Exar Kun killed Vodo

This is a nonissue. Spellcasting in the traditional fantasy flair doesn't apply here. This is Star Wars, not Dungeons and Dragons. Exar Kun does not have to pass a Concentration roll and rub the rabbit's paw in his left hand while crushing a gem in the right to make an attack. Sith magic is apparently Dark Side refined powers. Was there an instance where Exar Kun stopped to prepare the spell to freeze the entire senate? Did it say clearly that Exar Kun had to concentrate or didn't? Did it say that Vodo had to concentrate or didn't? Honestly, if this is the focal point of your argument, you need to take a look at your own group; Yoda closes his eyes and concentrates for damn near -everything-. I could argue that Dooku and Mace would be pushed back by Kun's lightning and Yoda would be forced to drop his saber and absorb it, assuming he could. Exar Kun's Force powers dwarf Sidious' by far, and Yoda could defeat Sidious, but at a high cost via force battles.

Again I can ask what Kun ever did that is that great ? As I said...that Senate freezing action could have been done by Yaddle (some person that didn't survive a thermal detornator) and again Vodo had to concentrate on his stick at least.

So before you go into another "omfg kun iz overrated" phase, look to the jedi and make a good argument FOR them.

Oh...didn't I do that often enough. Ok...just for the fun...again:

Yoda
Yoda was by far the most respected Jedi of the PT Jedi order. The first rule in the temple (according to Mace Windu) was that there is no contradiction against Yoda and in fact even the greatest force users did never break that rule.

Yoda's control over the force was great enough to accelerate his body more than any other Jedi could and he was able to deflect and even absorb force attacks that he (as far as we know) has never came across before.

For duelling skills Yoda is unrivaled in the PT era. He could outduell Count Dooku who practiced the "ultimate refinement in lightsaber vs lightsaber combat" in less than a minute and even without weapons Yoda is nearly impossible to hit (three Jedi Masters - Plo Koon, Depa Billaba, Saesee Tiin - failed to do that when trying) and dangerous considering the fact that he killed a Dark Jedi coming to Dagobah without having any weapon.

Mace Windu
Mace Windu was believed on being on par with Yoda. His exploits were simply legendary and even his own Padawan, Depa Billaba, being a Jedi Master and exceptional swordfighter on her own respected and even feared Master Windu's abilities.

Mace Windu is a natural talent when it comes to lightsaber combat. He developed his own style of ligthsaber combat being 13 years old - a style based on the most difficult form (VII) to master. At the end Master Windu had mastered forms I, IV, V, VII and his own form being Vaapad believed to be the most deadly of all lightsaber forms.

Armed with his lightsaber Mace Windu did nearly impossible things like destroying 3 gunboats at once and defeating multiple dangerous opponents like Asajj Ventress, Sora Bulq, General Grievous and Sidious himself and even without a lightsaber Master Windu has to be seen as an dangerous opponent being able to put up a decent fight to individuals like Kar Vastor and wasting entire droids of battle droids on his own without having his weapon.

Dooku
Dooku is said to be one of the most powerful Jedi that were trained in the Jedi temple in the last centuries. While Dooku had the skills and knowledge to be a Council Member his ideas did contradict the ones of the Council and so he never was part of the Council.

He trained Qui-Gon Jinn who trained Master Obi-Wan Kenobi and Dooku was known to not only be quite powerful with force powers but one of the best military commanders the Jedi Order had. He commanded the Jedi strike force that was send to destroy the Mandalorians on Galidraan.

In terms of lightsaber skills Dooku was only matched by Yoda himself while all other members of the Order where inferior compared to him with Mace Windu being the only one coming close to Dookus skills. His force powers - being great while he was a Jedi - even increased when Dooku joined the dark side to become Darth Tyranus.

Dooku had 8 decades experience in force use and trained his form II lightsaber style, being the "ultimate refinement in lightsaber vs lightsaber combat" for more than 60 years.

If you're gonna poo-poo this theory, at least try and disprove it soundly. Just saying "it doesn't work" doesn't convince me really.

Oh please, Janus.
It simply unlogic that Kun would destroy somebody while focusing on freezing the entire senate when he wasn't able to defeat the same person only a short period of time before. You have to assume that either Vodo wasn't able to use the full extend of his skills but Kun was or you have to say that both weren't able to use all of their skills (because having to concentrate on other things) or you must say that Kun developed his skills beyond recognition within a very short period of time which is simply out of logic.

We know that Vodo had to concentrate on making his staff able to deflect lightsaber hits (told in the comics !) - he had to do that also when he first did fight Kun which had resulted in a standstill.

Now the only possible reasons for Kun wasting Vodo would be:

a) Kun developing far greater skills than he had shown in the duel against Vodo before which I say is simply impossible since he had neither time nor decent opponents to spare with
b) Vodo being distracted for example by having to concentrate to not being affected by Kuns spell.

Now can you please tell me why you and Illustrious prefer the more unlogic and less reasonable explanation (Kun getting far stronger without doing anything) over the more reasonable one ? I simply don't get it.
What you do is equal to saying that Luke in ROTJ is the far superior duellist compared to Vader instead of thinking about Vader wasn't really trying since Vader kicked Luke's ass pretty clear just 6 months before ROTJ in ESB.

Actually, I was under the impression that Exar Kun beat Vodo before, as an apprentice. I'll double check that one.

Vodo did fight Kun into a standstill otherwise Vodo would have been dead already before Kun killed him on Coruscant.

You are coming off more and more as a Yoda fanboy. Putting forth the idea that Yoda would beat Ragnos in melee combat was perhaps the height of you overestimating Yoda's abilities. Considering that your faith i the little green jedi master is bordering on unrealistic, you have yet to give us some insight as to why Yoda and his fellow PT era saber users would even work well as a team and defeat someone of Kun's magnitutde.

a) Oh please. I've already said that force wise Ragnos would play tennis with Yoda's head. Melee combat is a different thing. We know that three Jedi Masters at once weren't able to hit Yoda - how would Ragnos (using a heavier weapon compared to a lightsaber and thereby moving slower than a lightsaber user) be able to do so ? You can't answer this because it's simply impossible. How would Ragnos be able to defend himself against somebody that simply moves faster than him - again a question nobody has given me an answer to up till now.

b)
It's seems quite paradox to me that you and Illustrious keep on telling me that "speed kills" used that as an argument for Kun in this case but simply ignore the fact that Yoda is definately the fastest force user there is since he is the only one that can simply avoid lightsaber strikes from 3 Masters without needing to parry one of them (and doing that nearly effortless).

c)
How they are going to not work well as a team ? Dooku is Yoda's padawan so they know each other inside out (at least Yoda knows Dooku inside out) and Mace and Yoda were sitting on the Council together for 25 years (and there are rumors - I don't remember this being said somewhere that Mace was another one of Yoda's padawans) - how would they NOT know eachother ? And we know that Dooku spared with Mace - again: How would they NOT know eachothers fighting style ?

The one and only point that makes you keep the ancient Sith Lords in higher regard than Sidious is there special force abilities.

Greater Force powers, greater Force mastery, greater Force atunement. This spells good fighter to me. If it would be such that people could have overwhelming Force mastery, etc. and be virtual bitches in combat it would not make any logical sense at all. Yoda, whom you have argued to be one of the best swordsmen ever, has a greater Force mastery than any of his peers. Force mastery and fighting skills are apparently related on some level. Unless you'd like to argue this. Then we can all just hang up our hats and write off everyone with impressive Force powers (Sadow, Ragnos, Nadd, etc.) as being inferior duellists to Yoda and DOoku and Mace and Sidious based on your accessment. So please, enlighten me on how fighting capability is NOT related?

Sadow could blow up planets - Ragnos was even greater and Kun...?
What did Kun ever do that "great" ? He has frozen the Senate. We know there is a forbidden Jedi technique called Moricho taught by Yaddle that is able to do exactly the same. Now...do you think that Yaddle is very powerful ? I doubt it.

Well, if Exar Kun can blow up stars and do feats that are unheard of in the PT era, it seems only natural that he would be definately superior to the Force users of that time. Unless you'd like to explain to us why Exar Kun is neccessarily weaker than we think him to be in this case?

That leaves the draining of the Massasi race. We know that Kun needed a ritual and the ruins on Yavin 4 to do that. It took him quite some time. Now we have dark siders (Revan and the Exile) with the possibility to develop "death field" knowledge which is exactly the same thing doing less damage to less individuals and they can use that "instant".

Don't argue to me game play stats, Nai. You poo-poo the RPG stats (and rightfully so) but then you pass of to me game play stats and mechanics as the "possibility" that Revan and the Exile use Death Field. I could just as easily say Exar Kun has the "possibility" to have all that and a bag of Nachos, but if there's no basis of fact, I should probably bark up another tree.

So...we have no proof that Kun is more powerful than the Exile, Revan or Yaddle in terms of force powers and that would make him weaker than you think.

What a mindjob, Nai. First off, I'd like you to cite an instance where Yaddle showed the ability to outduel anything. Second, cite the specifics of her powers and its limitations as she can use them with a reliable source. Third, don't argue the Exile or Revan based on game play mechanics to me ever again; you can beat the whole game with a stun prod for Christ's sake. You go do that and come back with a better argument.

Dooku doesn't need to fight aggressively since his form relys on precission. Of course he will go backpedal if Kun goes mad on him but would Kun be able to put Dooku out of the fight or disarm / kill him fast ? Debateable...even in a 1vs1 situation but this is 3vs1 against Kun.

Point being, Dooku doesn't compliment his fellows by being nonaggressive. He can be precise all day, but how does he compliment his fellows? How would this battle even take place in your mind, Nai?

Sure Yoda's fighting style requires a lot of room. But saying it's not effiecient...well...

It's not. Damn near every move he makes against Dooku in the AOTC fight was overexaggerated and unneccessary, and he was winded like a ninety year old mountain climber after a minute of fighting.

He's pressing everybody he fights against in total defense. That's what happened to Dooku and it happened to Sidious (despite the fact that Sidious had the superior position). And 300 years make a difference of exactly 300 years - that's 150 % Vodo. And keep in mind that Vodo fought Kun into a standstill with a walking stick once. What would a creature with 50 % more experience and a lightsaber do to Kun ? Getting wasted ? Most likely not...

This simply isn't true. Sidious did a couple of swipes and stabs, as did Dooku, that made Yoda stop for a saberlock. In fact, Yoda gets in saberlocks more than any other duellist in the series. Yoda is aggressive, and does keep people on the defensive more often than not, but no more than Qui-Gon kept Maul on the defensive. And in the end, Maul made good use of Ataru's inherent weakness.

And 150% of Vodo? What math class did you go to? Is a 33 year old man 150% of me? WTF? And where did Exar Kun and Vodo stalemate a few months before Vodo was killed? What were the particulars of this battle? Anyone?

And please. Sidious - from Lucas own point of view - is the ultimate Sith Lord, the most powerful Sith of them all. From the EU point of view this is BS but from the EU point of view the people are far more powerful than shown in the movies (e.g. Mace in Shatterpoint and the Clone War cartoon). So comparing movie characters to EU characters while using only things seen in the movies is unfair - and you know that.

Clone War cartoon is ridiculous; I'm sure a clone war Grievious could kill Yoda, okay? And since when was I using things only seen in the movies? I'm using Eu sources.

Wrong. Mace displayed his movement abilities best in his fight against Kar Vastor when he hits the guy more than 6 times in less than a second. Another display of that ability would be the clone war cartoon scene on Dantooine where he destroys the droids.

I'm gonna keep that clone wars cartoon reference at arm's length, but you may be right about the Shatterpoint reference. I don't remember every single detail 100% and I'm not about to reread the book and then post. I do have a few other things more pressing than this argument.

And Mace "Shatterpoint" ability is an instant ability. He simply looks at things and see the Shatterpoint. Where did you get the idea that it took him a decent length ?

a) He knew Depa's Shatterpoint before even haved reach her (making himself a hostage).
b) He knew Kar Vastors Shatterpoint instantly (that's why he acted like he did).
c) In the duel with Sidious he found Sidious Shatterpoint in less than a minute.

Again, you may be remembering the novel better than me (Or perhaps you just reread it...) in any case, Mace's Shatterpoints didn't aid him in direct combat. And if you're going to argue to me that Mace's Shatterpoints can defeat Kun, then apparently Mace's Shatterpoint can beat all, including Yoda, Dooku, Sidious, Ragnos, etc.

Oh, except it didn't beat Dooku or Yoda. So it's apparently not that infallible. Huh.

And he did fight Vastor without using his lightsaber and without using force powers first and put a decent fight up. Later it took Mace less than 5 seconds to disable Vastor and that was a point where Mace had put a lightsaber through his abdomen and was still injured from the previous battles.

Less than five seconds? No, I'm gonna have to reread that chapter again. That doesn't sound right. And in any case, considering that Vastor is an untrained Force sensitive, I would -hope- that Mace could take him out faster than that if he is to survive against Exar Kun of what has been called the Golden Age of the Sith.

It requires a constant force use to keep that stick able to deflect lightsaber attacks. So...he has to concentrate on that (if only a little bit).

Where does it say this? Nai, you need to prove up. Cite something. Show me a panel, anything. Not just "well... hey. He needs to concentrate."

Still the fact remains that he was "destroyed" by somebody he fought into a standstill a short time before. Explanation for this being what ? Kun developing supernatural force powers and developing into a god in months ?

So are you saying that Exar Kun couldn't have done... what he did?

Oh please Janus. On the same level you can say "Mace beat Sidious - it's done" or "Sidious beat Yoda - it's done". Since when do circumstances of a fight don't count here anymore ?

Since you're stretching it out to discredit Exar Kun and not concentrating on the jedi, whom you claim can defeat him. You're going over the Vodo fight trying to pick it apart. It was very straightforward- Kun destroyed his former master and one of the best lightsaber duellists of the order. That, I believe, might even be part of the narrative. I'll double check. Point being, why piss and moan over it? This isn't an ambiguous fight; it lasted shorter than AOTC Yoda versus Dooku.

I'm not seeking to undermine Kun I'm just thinking of the situation and sorry...I don't believe that Person A would suddenly be able to simply overpower Person B within seconds if Person B did put up a good fight to Person A only a short period of time before. That's out of any logic...

It happened. It was straightforward. I don't think that Anakin should have been clever enough nor Dooku foolish enough to let Anakin take the count's hands off, but it happened. It was within Anakin's capabilities apparently, and it's a done deal. Crying about it won't change a thing and it sure won't help resolve this battle.

That's like saying that Anakin would be able to destroy Dooku 2 months after their fight on Geonosis.

Is it? Did Exar Kun fight Vodo and was stalemated as a Sith lord possessing the amulet, and then came back a few short weeks later and beat him soundly? Or are you riding on this point as some kind of reason why Kun must be weaker than shit and your dream team can take him despite being vastly inferior themselves and a horrible, horrible team.

well Nai I noticed that this is what you said about Kun's force ritual to kill the massassi "That leaves the draining of the Massasi race. We know that Kun needed a ritual and the ruins on Yavin 4 to do that. It took him quite some time."

Now I want you to remember the circumstances of him doing that, he was being attacked by thousands of jedi and the entire republic military, he was having to hold them off with the force. Now I am unsure, but the only power I can think of that could do this would be force push, so he was able to force push thousands of jedi, and the entire republic military (ships and all), when they were not even on the planet, they were in the atmosphere. Now, you cannot convince me that this did not require power and concentration. However, even using that much power and concentration, he was able to drain the life from an entire face that spanned an entire planet. This would be like Sidious holding off every PT jedi (including Obi-Wan, Yoda, Anakin, Mace etc.) AND the entire republic military (every clone, starfighter and captial ships) at the same time killing off half of Courscant using the force.

No, what Kun did to the Massassi is quite possibly the most impressive use of the force that we have ever seen, even surpassing the blowing up of stars. Do not try to diminish it

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Now based on your earlier, unproven and unsound premise, you have concluded that Kun cannot defeat them possibly at all in saber combat and absolutely MUST use the Force. Next you'll be arguing Kun's Force mastery down to nothing, despite the fact that his ionized air particles (read: ghost 4,000 years after his death) could wipe its ass with Luke Skywalker.

I see I am way out of my league here in debate skill, but I am going to address this one little point. Exar defeating Luke isn't that impressive.

I personally think Luke to be quite powerful by this time. That should just add an extra layer to Exar's power, but it doesn't. Exar did NOT rip Luke from his body under his own power.

Exar was controlling Kyp. It was Kyp's raw force power that did the trick. By this time, Exar had to rest for 2 weeks before he could appear to a student or cause someother form of trouble for Luke.

Corran Horn states in "I, Jedi" that he believed that Exar had to rest for two weeks to do anything. This is WITH the power of the Massassi race at his disposal, not necessarily his own. When Kun killed Gantorious, he killed him with Gantorious' own power. He had taught Gantorious things, but when Gantorious fought back he used the power Gantorious had given him to kill him. Same thing happened with Luke, but Exar had more control over a much greater amount of power.

Corran Horn also reveals in his discussions with Luke that Kyp had a part in ripping Luke from his body. Kyp was what kept Exar from killing Luke by blocking Exar from using all of Kyp's power.

A spirit using a weaker persons power has been demonstrated before. In "The Splinter of the Minds Eye", Obi-wan doesn't guide Luke, he literally takes over Lukes body in the same way Exar did to Kyp and defeats Vader.

Notice, when Exar was defeated, this was after he had drained power from Kyp. Vodo had also gone 4000 years as a spirit and never gained any form of outside power/ Even Ragnos received power in his 5000 years. This can show that Vodo IS a difficult fight for Exar. I haven't seen anything to suggest that spirits lose power at different rates, so there is no reason for Vodo to have lost power faster than Exar. A lightsaber master could have easily defeated Luke's 12 students and Luke at one time. Those makes it seem like Vodo did over half the work. Remember that this is Vodo AFTER 4000 years without gaining any additional power and Exar AFTER draining power from Kyp.

As a recap, we can see that following things.

Exar didn't rip Luke from his body using his own power.
Kyp force potential did most of the work, Exar guided his power.
This power has been demonstrated before. In otherwords, its not a unique occurrence.
Vodo did much of the work without gaining any additional power since his death while Exar received a lot of power only a few weeks before.

This doesn't make Exar's ionized air particles seem so great to me.

Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
No, what Kun did to the Massassi is quite possibly the most impressive use of the force that we have ever seen, even surpassing the blowing up of stars. Do not try to diminish it

He had the Massassi temples to amplify his power. That was their purpose. I also want to see a source on how many Jedi where there and how many ships, soliders, ect. were there.

Saying "Do not try to diminish it" make is sound like you think it is some holy event. 😉

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Some proof for this?

All lightsaber styles are based on some basical movements (form I) just being refined over and over again. Every fighting style is based on some basical movements. You have basical defence movements (against strikes placed on certain zones of you body) as well as you have basical offence movements (designed to hit certain zones of your opponents body).

You can't simply develop new techniques out of nothing and there is no infinete amount of possible movements. Just think about how many possible movements you can apply to cut somebodies head off (just an example):

- swing from the front side
- swing from the back side
- swing from the right side
- swing from the left side
- overhead swing changing direction to move in from one of the four sides mentioned

The basic movements still stay the same. Watch the fight Obi-Wan vs Anakin in ROTS for example - they're both using different styles but still using nearly similar movements with only a few differences and that "few" difference won't be enough to totally surprise an opponent. That even counts more for Jedi since they learn all the basic movements with form I (and everyone of them learned that form).

Conclusion based on earlier unproven premise. Show us how all three of them would be able to explore Kun's style before dying a quick death.

See above. They won't simply need to explore Kun's style in depth to avoid getting cut into pieces within seconds.

This is a ridiculous assumption. For one, no one being could ever come close to the limit of developed melee attacks. Why? Well, you're telling me that Dooku, Yoda, and Mace have at least come close to learning how to deal with every single possible combination of movements the humanoid body can make with a weapon. Can you even give me a definate number of such movements? I highly doubt it. So how can they reach a limit in their time of relative peace on something that is near limitless?

Again: See above. The number of movements is nearly limitless, yes, the "target zones" on the human body are not. That's the reason for most fighting styles / martial arts systems first teach their students to defend themselves properly before teaching attack movements.

Now based on your earlier, unproven and unsound premise, you have concluded that Kun cannot defeat them possibly at all in saber combat and absolutely MUST use the Force. Next you'll be arguing Kun's Force mastery down to nothing, despite the fact that his ionized air particles (read: ghost 4,000 years after his death) could wipe its ass with Luke Skywalker.

Arguing Kun's force mastery down ? You're arguing it up. Kun never attacked Luke Skywalker on his own - it was Kyp Durron + Exar Kun and it's even said that Luke would have been able to withstand the attack of one of them alone. And Kun was strong enough to toast one of Luke's students on his own. So...I hope you don't want to tell me that JA Luke's force defence (being enough to make Kun not attack him on his own) is a match for those of Yoda, Mace or Dooku...

No, this doesn't follow. You need to prove to us that all three of them have the neccessary capability to resist such an attack, assuming it ever comes into play. And even if Yoda and perhaps Dooku could resist a freeze attack, you cannot assume that Exar Kun would lose. If that is his only Force power, he would be a poor excuse for a Sith lord, no?

A poor excuse for a Sith Lord ? What Sith abilities have we seen that are usable in combat (pulling all thinks together) ?

- telekinesis (throwing stuff)
- force lightning (up to "force storm" from KotoR games)
- force drain
- life drain (up to "death field" from KotoR games)
- force choke

Now we have no idea how efficient life drain / force drain can be used by Kun in terms of melee combat (so using that fast). What we know is that force lightning is useless against experienced Jedi (block with lightsaber - Mace, deflect it - Dooku, absorb it - Yoda).

We know that Kun can use force choke against multiple opponents at once but we can't say if he can do that while moving / fighting (and even Luke's Padawans where able to survive that).

Leaves telekinesis (throwing stuff). Since I don't have any other measures here I will use the WotC d20 stats (I hate them but they are Lucas approved):

"Move object" skills:
Exar 14
Yoda 20
Mace 19
Dooku 11

(all outclassing NJO Luke having a 10 in this ability).

So...unless somebody gives me some proof that Kun would be able to overwhelm their force defences (Yoda's and Dooku's being close to Ragno's one according to the WotC game stats again) and force drain them or life drain them to death I have to assume that they would be able to survive a force battle with Kun.

Now we are back to lightsaber combat again and I doubt that Kun would be able to survive against Yoda, Dooku and Mace at once.

[QUOTE=5075695]Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I see I am way out of my league here in debate skill, but I am going to address this one little point. Exar defeating Luke isn't that impressive.

When don't you adress one or two little points?

Exar was controlling Kyp. It was Kyp's raw force power that did the trick. By this time, Exar had to rest for 2 weeks before he could appear to a student or cause someother form of trouble for Luke.

After 4,000 years he could still do this. Sidious in his heyday couldn't possess an exceptional Force user, let alone beyond the grave, where he was virtually powerless. This actually speaks measures for Kun.

Corran Horn states in "I, Jedi" that he believed that Exar had to rest for two weeks to do anything. This is WITH the power of the Massassi race at his disposal, not necessarily his own.

Corran Horn is the expert, huh? Well, in any case this is an impressive event. The idea that Exar Kun could hijack bodies like he did of considerable Force users is impressive, even beyond the grave. And while no doubt the Massassi race's power helped him in some way or another in his undead statisis, we don't know exactly how much or to what degree at all, do we? Just as you want to know the number of ships and jedi in the atmosphere I want to know -from you- just how much the massassi powers boosted him. And don't give me some crap number system- you can call a rose a rhino but it's still a rose; assigning numbers doesn't alter nor help define the truth.

A spirit using a weaker persons power has been demonstrated before. In "The Splinter of the Minds Eye", Obi-wan doesn't guide Luke, he literally takes over Lukes body in the same way Exar did to Kyp and defeats Vader.

It's Splinter of the Mind's Eye. Luke also ogles Leia and uses a Kaiburr crystal, among other things. This is one of the worst EU examples by far. You'd be better off arguing to me the Clone Wars cartoon or the Crystal Star novel. And if you want to argue this point, show me where it says that Luke was unwilling to let Obi-Wan control him?

Notice, when Exar was defeated, this was after he had drained power from Kyp. Vodo had also gone 4000 years as a spirit and never gained any form of outside power/ Even Ragnos received power in his 5000 years. This can show that Vodo IS a difficult fight for Exar. I haven't seen anything to suggest that spirits lose power at different rates, so there is no reason for Vodo to have lost power faster than Exar. A lightsaber master could have easily defeated Luke's 12 students and Luke at one time. Those makes it seem like Vodo did over half the work. Remember that this is Vodo AFTER 4000 years without gaining any additional power and Exar AFTER draining power from Kyp.

You know, I could get into this, but I'd really really like to know one thing. Honestly: Was Vodo sane? I know Exar Kun went mad in his isolation. Was Vodo also deranged?

And while you're at it, we can get into the idea of how this apparently reflects his skills in real life. Since you're totally against the idea of spirit's powers declining, I'm hoping you can prove it better to us next time.

Exar didn't rip Luke from his body using his own power.

No, he used someone else's. You said youself, the guy resisted somewhat. For a dead guy thousands of years old and half mad, that's pretty impressive.

Kyp force potential did most of the work, Exar guided his power.

Well, if Kyp was strong enough to do what he did, he seems stronger than the Luke of this period, at least potentially. And Kun dominated him. Okay. Sure.

This power has been demonstrated before. In otherwords, its not a unique occurrence.

Yeah, and people have been shot with bullets before, too. But if one instance is a headshot from a half mile away with a scopeless rifle while another is a shotgun blast a pointblank range to a nonmoving target... it's a different deal there. I don't recall Obi-Wan taking over Luke's body against the boy's will, nor was Obi-Wan able to replicate anything using Luke's full potential. And remember, it's Splinter of the Mind's Eye. Makes Jedi Trial look like a masterpiece.

Vodo did much of the work without gaining any additional power since his death while Exar received a lot of power only a few weeks before.

So you're saying that Vodo must be amazing and a tough guy for Kun, despite being easily murdered by him? Yeah, okay. Sure.

This doesn't make Exar's ionized air particles seem so great to me.

Your opinion. Fine by me.

Janus and Glentract:

Kun didn't use Kyp's body. It was Kun's spirit on his own and Kyp on the dark side teaming up on Luke.

The only events where a force user really "used" the body of another one are:

- Obi-Wan using Luke (Splinter of the Minds Eye)
- Luke using Jacen (JA trilogy)
- Ragnos using Tavion (Jedi Academy)

[b]All lightsaber styles are based on some basical movements (form I) just being refined over and over again. Every fighting style is based on some basical movements. You have basical defence movements (against strikes placed on certain zones of you body) as well as you have basical offence movements (designed to hit certain zones of your opponents body). [/B]

True, but saying that the PT jedi have reached a "limit" is a but ridiculous. That would be like saying that a modern day practitioner of any fighting style has reached a limit that an earlier one hasn't practiced. And let's be fair; a latter day swordsman would wipe their ass with any one of us.

You can't simply develop new techniques out of nothing and there is no infinete amount of possible movements. Just think about how many possible movements you can apply to cut somebodies head off (just an example):

- swing from the front side
- swing from the back side
- swing from the right side
- swing from the left side
- overhead swing changing direction to move in from one of the four sides mentioned

Yes, that is true. But you were saying that the PT group had reached the limit, implying that they had sufficient mastery to counter each and every possible combination of such attacks. To even possess such knowledge is considerable, and in the light you've put it, impossible.

The basic movements still stay the same. Watch the fight Obi-Wan vs Anakin in ROTS for example - they're both using different styles but still using nearly similar movements with only a few differences and that "few" difference won't be enough to totally surprise an opponent. That even counts more for Jedi since they learn all the basic movements with form I (and everyone of them learned that form).

I think you're ignoring a few things here. First, every thrown ball is the same, as is basically every thrown punch. But the variables involved in direction, force, forces and such effecting it, etc. make each and every one different. In some cases, it can be sufficient enough a difference to make the ball say, hard to catch, despite the catcher having good knowledge of how to catch or even a big glove to aid him. To simply say that it's all basic and no variation can ever be too radical to take on off guard is to spit in the face of reality. Obviously, Anakin did something that the experienced Dooku never expected, and Dooku is, as you are wont to say, near the "limit".

So saying that all fighting is basic and that the PT jedi are near this "limit" and thus stand a good chance against Kun is ridiculous.

See above. They won't simply need to explore Kun's style in depth to avoid getting cut into pieces within seconds.

And is this why the jedi masters accompanying Mace got slaughtered by the unorthodox Sidious? I mean, all moves are basic, and as jedi masters of the all mighty PT era, they should have been able to survive a few seconds knowing the basics of all things, Shii-Cho, right? I mean, the Shii-Cho heavy practitioner lasted a good three swipes. No, this doesn't follow.

Again: See above. The number of movements is nearly limitless, yes, the "target zones" on the human body are not. That's the reason for most fighting styles / martial arts systems first teach their students to defend themselves properly before teaching attack movements.

Targeting zones are the basics. Things beyond that are techniques and skills that evolve into separate forms. Different fighting styles evolve for different purposes. If you're trying to tell me that the PYT jedi know the basics and thus will last longer than Vodod did against Kun's carnage, you need to tell that to Agen Kolar and Kit Fisto and Saesee Tiin.

Arguing Kun's force mastery down ? You're arguing it up. Kun never attacked Luke Skywalker on his own - it was Kyp Durron + Exar Kun and it's even said that Luke would have been able to withstand the attack of one of them alone. And Kun was strong enough to toast one of Luke's students on his own. So...I hope you don't want to tell me that JA Luke's force defence (being enough to make Kun not attack him on his own) is a match for those of Yoda, Mace or Dooku...

I addressed this to Glentract.

A poor excuse for a Sith Lord ? What Sith abilities have we seen that are usable in combat (pulling all thinks together) ?

Oh, so he didn't use it, thus he must not have any control or knowledge of it, eh? On the same note, Sadow never used Force choke. Must be outside of his bag of tricks, huh?

- telekinesis (throwing stuff)
- force lightning (up to "force storm" from KotoR games)
- force drain
- life drain (up to "death field" from KotoR games)
- force choke

Nice list. What for?

Now we have no idea how efficient life drain / force drain can be used by Kun in terms of melee combat (so using that fast). What we know is that force lightning is useless against experienced Jedi (block with lightsaber - Mace, deflect it - Dooku, absorb it - Yoda).

More assumptions. First off, life drain isn't likely to be a part of this duel. If it was, Kun would have whipped it out against Vodo or Ulic, the latter of which he considered a threat.

Second, we know that Dooku and Sidious' Force lightning; assuming that Kun's lightning is the same level needs some backing. Considering Kun's powers are immense, this doesn't naturally seem to be the case.

We know that Kun can use force choke against multiple opponents at once but we can't say if he can do that while moving / fighting (and even Luke's Padawans where able to survive that).

Why does Force choke neccessarily need to be an issue?

[/B]
Leaves telekinesis (throwing stuff). Since I don't have any other measures here I will use the WotC d20 stats (I hate them but they are Lucas approved):

"Move object" skills:
Exar 14
Yoda 20
Mace 19
Dooku 11

(all outclassing NJO Luke having a 10 in this ability).[/B]

RPG stats which aren't accurate enough to rely on. I'll pass.

So...unless somebody gives me some proof that Kun would be able to overwhelm their force defences (Yoda's and Dooku's being close to Ragno's one according to the WotC game stats again) and force drain them or life drain them to death I have to assume that they would be able to survive a force battle with Kun.

You're assuming that Kun can only do those things. It doesn't follow, Nai.

Now we are back to lightsaber combat again and I doubt that Kun would be able to survive against Yoda, Dooku and Mace at once.

And I beg to differ. Back to square one.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Greater Force powers, greater Force mastery, greater Force atunement. This spells good fighter to me. If it would be such that people could have overwhelming Force mastery, etc. and be virtual bitches in combat it would not make any logical sense at all. Yoda, whom you have argued to be one of the best swordsmen ever, has a greater Force mastery than any of his peers. Force mastery and fighting skills are apparently related on some level. Unless you'd like to argue this. Then we can all just hang up our hats and write off everyone with impressive Force powers (Sadow, Ragnos, Nadd, etc.) as being inferior duellists to Yoda and DOoku and Mace and Sidious based on your accessment. So please, enlighten me on how fighting capability is NOT related?

See...that is the point where we have different ideas about "force powers". Would Yoda be able to blow up stars if he had grown up in ancient times learning Sith magic for 900 years ? Would Mace be able to do so ? Would Dooku be ? Would Anakin ?

We know (for example) that Yoda has greater force powers than Dooku (greater power, greater attunement, greater mastery): Would Yoda be able to use Sith lightning ?
If Dooku's idea is right that a "dark side Yoda" would obliterate Sidious in the blink of an eye what would he be able to do ? I hope you get what I'm trying to say. You can't judge the possible abilities of people when they were never close to using all of their abilities.

Well, if Exar Kun can blow up stars and do feats that are unheard of in the PT era, it seems only natural that he would be definately superior to the Force users of that time. Unless you'd like to explain to us why Exar Kun is neccessarily weaker than we think him to be in this case?

Why Exar is weaker than you think he is ? You gave an example yourself: Exar did never blow up a star with his force powers. Ulic and Exar send people using Naga Sadow's ship (channeling force powers) to blow up Ossus (I think it was Aleema Keeto who did that). So even Sadow used Sith technology to multiply his force powers enough to blow up a star and this (as seen) could be done by people not being close to Kun or Ulic.

Point being, Dooku doesn't compliment his fellows by being nonaggressive. He can be precise all day, but how does he compliment his fellows? How would this battle even take place in your mind, Nai?

He can use aggressive movements if needed otherwise Anakin would have all his limbs in ROTS. It's not that he will just stand around and watch getting his fellows cut into pieces while doing nothing because noone attacks him.

It's not. Damn near every move he makes against Dooku in the AOTC fight was overexaggerated and unneccessary, and he was winded like a ninety year old mountain climber after a minute of fighting.

He was trying to overwhelm Dooku's defence with unusual movements (jumping over Dooku's head and stuff like that). Is that effiecient ? Debateable...would strike 200 times into a defence of a master duellist would be "efficient" ?

This simply isn't true. Sidious did a couple of swipes and stabs, as did Dooku, that made Yoda stop for a saberlock. In fact, Yoda gets in saberlocks more than any other duellist in the series. Yoda is aggressive, and does keep people on the defensive more often than not, but no more than Qui-Gon kept Maul on the defensive. And in the end, Maul made good use of Ataru's inherent weakness.

We know that Yoda doesn't even need a lightsaber to avoid getting hit. Best they did is stop him from throwing in attacks on them - in fact that is the only thing they could do.

Clone War cartoon is ridiculous; I'm sure a clone war Grievious could kill Yoda, okay? And since when was I using things only seen in the movies? I'm using Eu sources.

Of course the Clone War cartoon is ridiculous - but this is all Lucas approved. And if Lucas wants his PT Jedi look like badass fighters then they are. Why do you want to contradict Lucas personal oppinion here - you who always bashes people for contradicting Lucas personal philosophy about the force ("Grey Jedi" and stuff like that) ?

I'm gonna keep that clone wars cartoon reference at arm's length, but you may be right about the Shatterpoint reference. I don't remember every single detail 100% and I'm not about to reread the book and then post. I do have a few other things more pressing than this argument.

I've read through Shatterpoint again last week. It labels Kar Vastor as "lightning fast" just to say that "Mace was invisible" and then he places 6 hits on Vastor.

Again, you may be remembering the novel better than me (Or perhaps you just reread it...) in any case, Mace's Shatterpoints didn't aid him in direct combat. And if you're going to argue to me that Mace's Shatterpoints can defeat Kun, then apparently Mace's Shatterpoint can beat all, including Yoda, Dooku, Sidious, Ragnos, etc.

Oh, except it didn't beat Dooku or Yoda. So it's apparently not that infallible. Huh.

Erm...he did beat Sidious with that ability (kicking Sidious lightsaber away) - the Shatterpoint ability just shows Mace weak points of his enemy. It's very similar to being able to look at a piece of wood and immediatly spot the weakest point. It's another question if Mace can exploit that weak points after spotting them. Maybe he has to be the superior lightsaber duellist to do so.

Less than five seconds? No, I'm gonna have to reread that chapter again. That doesn't sound right. And in any case, considering that Vastor is an untrained Force sensitive, I would -hope- that Mace could take him out faster than that if he is to survive against Exar Kun of what has been called the Golden Age of the Sith.

Vastor wanted to jump at Mace and Mace simply force pushed one of the vibroshields through Vastors. I would doubt that Vastor would be able to survive against Mace in Lightsaber vs Virboshield combat very long.

Where does it say this? Nai, you need to prove up. Cite something. Show me a panel, anything. Not just "well... hey. He needs to concentrate."

Since I don't have my comics here at the moment I can't tell you the exact place. It is told that he augmented the strength of his walking stick with the force - it would make no sense if he has a walking stick made of a material that can simply block a lightsaber. Or have you ever seen something like that ?

So are you saying that Exar Kun couldn't have done... what he did?

No. I'm saying that there must be a reason why Kun is suddenly able to defeat somebody quite easily that did fight him into a standstill just a short time period before that.

Since you're stretching it out to discredit Exar Kun and not concentrating on the jedi, whom you claim can defeat him. You're going over the Vodo fight trying to pick it apart. It was very straightforward- Kun destroyed his former master and one of the best lightsaber duellists of the order. That, I believe, might even be part of the narrative. I'll double check. Point being, why piss and moan over it? This isn't an ambiguous fight; it lasted shorter than AOTC Yoda versus Dooku.

Because IF Kun had any advantages on his side (like Vodo focusing on resisting Kun's Sith magic spell) you can't really call it "fair". That was my entire point here.

It happened. It was straightforward. I don't think that Anakin should have been clever enough nor Dooku foolish enough to let Anakin take the count's hands off, but it happened. It was within Anakin's capabilities apparently, and it's a done deal. Crying about it won't change a thing and it sure won't help resolve this battle.

See above.

Is it? Did Exar Kun fight Vodo and was stalemated as a Sith lord possessing the amulet, and then came back a few short weeks later and beat him soundly? Or are you riding on this point as some kind of reason why Kun must be weaker than shit and your dream team can take him despite being vastly inferior themselves and a horrible, horrible team.

a) Now I have to read the comics again to tell you that but as far as I remember that fight happened after Exar had become the Dark Lord that means he already had the amulet and he already had exterminated Nadds spirit.

b) Again: A "horrible" team that contains of one Jedi Master and two of his former Padawans (at least one) now on Jedi Master / Sith Lord status ? Yoda and Dooku are a Padawan team and we know that all three of them are quite skilled force users / lightsaber duellists.