No, Akbar... that is unreasonable. You make it seem like Exar Kun is gonna stand there with a stupid look on his face while the others (two of which are noted for more relaxed styles, and then you have the psychotic green monkey in there) are going to attack him at the same time to such a degree of perfection and cohesive teamwork that he will be powerless to defend himself? Please. That is ridiculous even during the best of times. And Kun doesn't have just one blade; he had a double bladed lightsaber which he can manipulate faster than Maul did (And Maul put up a solid defense against a Jedi master quite well, I would say... and an Ataru practitioner, to boot) his uber Force powers, and his reputation for being flat out damn freakin' good. Actually, unparalleled in his time.
So the real question is, how can you assume that the trio even has a significant chance to get close enough to him to work that cohesively, assuming that they can blend well at all?
Ok, it is possible for them to all strike at the same time, but you are right when you say that they will not work as a team, my point is that 3 people are swinging lightsabers at one individual, obviously Kun wont sit there like a retard, but unless he pulls of something insane before the fight starts, he will have a hella time actually pressing anyone... he would be in a defensive formation the whole battle through unless he seperates them, but these jedi are not weak, so its not going to be easy to knock one of them out unexpectedly, especially mace.
Oh and Qui gon jinn was a good jedi.. yet he did not have enough force powers like master yoda to survive the fight. So Jinn did not really put up a awesome fight...
How can i assume the trio would beat Kun? well, Again, unless Kun does something unexpected before the fight even starts I would like to see him focus on three people swinging thier lightsabers from many different directions and especially all at different speed intervals... I just dont think Kun would kill all 3 of them. Maybe kill one of injure 2, but... you know what I Mean
Well the thing is, as soon as somebody like Yoda starts fighting the other two won't be able too.
As soon as Mace starts fighting with his unpredictable style that nobody else there knows let alone stands controls it will be hard to go in with either the force or a lightsaber..
So the only one they can help is Dooku, but only with the force because a lightsaber will make the fighting to annoying. But the force powers of the Jedi are good, they will not destroy him using the dark Side and if they would try then they wouldn't be good enough with it. So what does that mean.
That you have three people fighting one person, but those three will not work together at all, and will never be able to take out the one. The only chance they have is making Exar Kun to tired to win from the last one, but I just don't see that happening.
Originally posted by Deus Ex
I was speaking physically. I'm no physics expert or anything, but the amount of force or energy (read: NOT SW Force power) to do such an act which is thought to be virtually impossible considering the stars go nova -instantly- IS tremendous. Period!
Ah ok...but why did you throw that into the thread anyways ? If Aleema Keto can do this every "major" PT force user can do this.
You obviously lost your sense of humor this morning. I was kidding.
Yap. My back hurts, I have a cold and a terrible headache - sorry.
No, your accessment of the battle before you even related the script to us bent his skills over the barrel. You said that you watched the fight frame by frame and that Dooku was visibly inferior. You never said you read the script and thus Yoda must be superior. you made a point to me about Dooku being off since you watched it frame for frame. Which is it?
I pretty often said this but I will say it again: "It's hard to develop decent swordfighting skills against a mixer aimed with a lightsaber."
a)
If you watch the fight you will notice that Dooku does some attacks and they are aimed very well but he always aims to places Yoda had been milliseconds before. There is not a single strike that Yoda really had to parry, he parries some but he didn't have to. Best occassion to see this is a strike from Dooku coming straight downwards, Yoda has moved sidewards and so Dooku misses him but Yoda still puts his lightsaber against Dooku's.
b)
The "lucky moments". During the fight Dooku was close to losing his right foot (Yoda spinning on the ground and missing Dooku by millimetres), his left hand (he removes the hand from his lightsaber hilt in the same moments you have Yoda's saber coming down again missing Dooku's wrist by milimetres). And the best thing is the movement somebody once used to argue that Dooku is on par with Yoda (or even superior): Dooku parries one of Yoda's attack behind his back. If you freeze the picture at that point you can see that Yoda's blade is between Dooku's blade and Dooku's back. What does that tell you ?
1) That parry was completely senseless since Yoda was striking straight downwards.
2) Yoda had the opportunity to chop Dooku's head off or cut him in halfs since he had his saber between Dooku's saber and Dooku's back - he just had to move his saber upwars in a diagonal way (cutting Dooku's head off) or sidewards (cutting Dooku's back) and Dooku would have exactly no opportunity to defend against that.
Leave the question why Yoda didn't do that. Possible answers: He's too stupid to think about movements like that (hmm...doesn't fit to somebody with 875 years experience using that weapon he used) or he didn't simply want to kill Dooku.
c)
Dooku wanted a decission there. He wanted to know who's the superior fighter. Hell...he even tells that "It is obvious this contest will not be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with a
lightsaber."
Now people come and say "Oh...he wants to rescue the DS plans." Yeah...he simply fights Anakin and Obi-Wan without caring much about the plans and than Yoda comes in and he fights Yoda (to decide who's stronger since he tells that) and suddenly - without having the decission he wanted - he comes to the thought "Oops...I have the DS plans...I'll better leave. Of course this has nothing to do with Yoda being sure to destroy me in the next few seconds ("Fought well you have, my old Padawan."😉 I just feel like it would be the better idea to leave."
And in some books a heart can beat like a trapped bird in a cage in one's chest... but does that make it neccessarily so? Come on now. Literary analogies can cut either way. If you're basing your entire view of Vaapad on instant Shatterpoint and super fast movements, why did Mace lose to Dooku or Yoda?[/b]Analogies ? Depa takes two lightsaber and deflects fire from two automatic blaster turrets from two different directions - you have to be fast to do that. And she doesn't only deflects the fire she redirects it (one laser beam blows a hole into the cockpit of a gun boat and she redirects 7 laser beams into that hole). Not to mention she has killed the entire crew of one gunboat (more than 20 people) before. And Mace is said to be the better fighter...
[quote]
Well, because it's pretty much stupid, really. If jedi can punch like that, why do they need lightsabers? Why can't they all deflect blasts with their hand and just use martial arts on everyone? Hell, it would make more sense than having a deadly energy blade!
a)
This is Mace Windu being second only to Master Yoda. I doubt that any Jedi would be able to do that. And if you think about how much Yoda can boost his strength using the force (Dooku can parry Anakin and Obi-Wan attacking him from one side at once - he engaged in a saber lock with BOTH of them at once in ROTS; but he needed both hands in a saberlock with Yoda and Yoda pushed him back easily) it's not very farfetched that Mace can punch through metal.
b)
Lightsaber are traditional weapons and all that fighting ablities won't help you much against other force users (see Mace vs Kar Vastor in Shatterpoint without weapons) and sure as hell they won't help you if you face another trained force user (a Sith) aimed with a ligthsaber.
So you're assuming that this team is better as a team because its parts are better by themselves, is that it?
No. I'm assuming that this team would be better because:
a) They have greater individual skills
b) Yoda has at least trained Dooku the same way Obi-Wan trained Anakin for a very equal amount of time
c) Yoda knows Dooku's and Mace's fighting styles. Dooku knows Mace's and Yoda's fighting styles and Mace is a form IV master himself so he knows Yoda's fighting style inside out and he knows Dooku's fighting style.
So basically they have all advantages Obi-Wan and Anakin had (knowing each others fighting styles, knowing each others personality) adding superior force knowledge / mastery and superior lightsaber duelling skills. How would they "suck" compared to Anakin and Obi ?
First, Jedi have already shown bad partnership skills in the series. If you want to convince me that Dooku is a good partner, you need to cite something. Otherwise, the running track of the jedi in general shows very -little- teamwork and a whole lot of single, one-man army type shit.Second, do you even have the specifics of that battle? From what source? Did Dooku fight personally, or did he lead troops? Did he work with other jedi flawlessly? Does this help your case against Kun at all?
Yoda and Dooku would still be a master-padawan team and all examples show that those teams are working quite well together (Qui-Gon / Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan / Anakin, Mace Windu / Depa Billaba).
Well, Mace stepped back the moment Sidious attacked. If he had come forward and played offensively, his men might have survived longer than they did. But he stepped back from Sidious. This doesn't show me teamwork, and it sure as hell makes me wonder how Mace is gonna react when he sees Exar Kun. And Depa's style compliments his own because he made it! If Yoda made Makashi and Vaapad and this battle were taking place, I'd be willing to see that. But that's not the case.
Erm...Mace stepped back when Sidious attacked, yes. What should he have done instead ? Attack, cutting through his fellow Jedi or jump into Sidious blade who came up flying spinning around ? In fact stepping back moving into a defensive stance was the only reasonable action to take - if he could have done anything else to save the other he would have done that and having the fighting experience he had he would have seen if he could have done anything else.
I know that him creating his own style wows you to the point of hating anyone not PT era, Nai... but really, you didn't answer my question- how did Yoda mentor Mace any more than he mentored anyone else?
That was not the question you ended with and I'm not hating anyone not PT era. We know that Mace received personal training from Yoda from child hood on (again being mentioned in Shatterpoint).
And it's very likely that Yoda mentored Mace more than other people because:
a) Mace's unique shatterpoint ability
b) Mace's unique rise through the ranks of the order (Knight Status age 13, Master status age 28) - proof of his unique attunement with the force
c) Mace's unique sword fighting abilities
See...Mace simply is a "Jedi by nature" and the most powerful student the order had (as far as we know) until Anakin has shown up. How would Yoda not care more about Mace than about "average" students ?
Elaborate on this. Vaapad is a mindset. It's said in Shatterpoint, straight out. It's never said that Vaapad is neccessarily a whole new style entirely that can't be possibly known or countered, since you yourself argued that Kun's style (Which IS reputed to be deadly, fast, and unreplicated and unknown by all else but him, Ulic, and his dead enemies) can be learned by the three PT jedi because it relies on basics... how does this compute?
It is said that Vaapad is a completely new style at the beginning of Shatterpoint. Mace and Yoda are talking to Palpatine about Vaapad and both label it the "most deadly" style - they are even astimating both that Mace would be the only Jedi (except Yoda) to be able to stop Depa because she mastered Vaapad.
So "Vaapad" is:
a) A lightsaber fighting style
b) a mindset (embracing the "fun" of a fight)
The things are - of course - linked. The style can't be used without the right mindset.
I -DID- say that Master-padawan teams work well together, especially when both are lightside, since the dark side clouds those bonds. Naturally, they would have a bond or empathy a step above the normal team.But you're forgetting that Mace shares that bond with Depa already, and that Dooku is a Sith. He does not share a bond with Yoda anymore. And while I do believe that such a bond does help its users, there is no evidence of it existing here in this case, nor anything to say it would help them overcome Kun.
Well...taking a look on it like that you're right here...
Well, it's certainly not like you suggested: with Kun standing there like a moron while these force users charge him from different directions and different angles and attack all at the same time so perfectly that he can't evade or take measures of defense. No, YOU are the one underrating Kun as a fighter of legendary skill and giving way too much credit to the PT jedi. Period.
Oh...can you read my mind or why are you suggesting what I do suggest ?
I suggest that this battle will take place in some open area (no opportunity to use the terrain) and now you can tell me what Kun would do to stop them ?
We know that all force powers he has shown us able to use can be blocked or countered by his three opponents (when JA Luke would be able to do that). So again we're back at lightsaber combat and now please tell me how Kun is going to outduel:
a) A Sith Lord, being master of the ultimate refinement in lightsaber vs lightsaber combat.
b) A 900 year old Jedi Master of lightsaber combat and force use.
c) Another Jedi Master who archieved Knight status at the age of 13, Master status at the age of 28 (therefore being an exceptional force user) and developed his own fighting style (not known to Kun), featuring a mindset completely unusual for a Jedi (something Kun wouldn't expect) with a unique ability that shows him his opponents weak points (physical weakpoints, weakpoints in the lightsaber style).
It simply won't happen. And YOU are underestimating the PT people here. What do you think they will do ? Walk up to Kun and get obliterated by his force powers or cut into pieces after 30 seconds of lightsaber combat ? Why won't Dooku for example use Sith Lightning on Kun or stuff like that ?
Because Dooku his lightning wouldn't be able to do shit.
And still what are you suggesting that Yoda and somebody else will fight him at the same time? Do you see that happening? I sure as hell don't. Maybe if one person was as powerful as al three of them combined he could win. But not like this, more people does not always mean an advantage. There is no reason to assume Yoda or Mace can block the lightning Kun will throw at them.
Both of them had an extremely hard time with Sidious his lightning yeah sure they both pulled it off, but if that lightnings power was suddenly he doubled, there is nothing to suggest that they could hold on to that. And Kun is a lot more powerful then Sidious. So we have Dooku possibly blocking it, but whats the chance of that? Next to none, we don't know how powerful his force blocking abilities are, but there is just no way that he could block more then Yoda.
So Kun could overwhelm each one of them individually with the force, he could surely destroy each of them with a lightsaber as he is the better fighter. Now the question is could he defeat all three of them, well I see no evidence saying that he's more powerful then three of them. I see even less evidence that those three will work together. Even in an open field with Yoda his flips and Mace his unpredictable movements. It just won't work, they won't coordinate their attacks. They won't combine their attacks, they will fail because of that. They are not a team.. These are three individuals who will try to take him on, almost one by one by one. Untill all three are dead.
Originally posted by Fishy
Because Dooku his lightning wouldn't be able to do shit.And still what are you suggesting that Yoda and somebody else will fight him at the same time? Do you see that happening? I sure as hell don't. Maybe if one person was as powerful as al three of them combined he could win. But not like this, more people does not always mean an advantage. There is no reason to assume Yoda or Mace can block the lightning Kun will throw at them.
Both of them had an extremely hard time with Sidious his lightning yeah sure they both pulled it off, but if that lightnings power was suddenly he doubled, there is nothing to suggest that they could hold on to that. And Kun is a lot more powerful then Sidious. So we have Dooku possibly blocking it, but whats the chance of that? Next to none, we don't know how powerful his force blocking abilities are, but there is just no way that he could block more then Yoda.
So Kun could overwhelm each one of them individually with the force, he could surely destroy each of them with a lightsaber as he is the better fighter. Now the question is could he defeat all three of them, well I see no evidence saying that he's more powerful then three of them. I see even less evidence that those three will work together. Even in an open field with Yoda his flips and Mace his unpredictable movements. It just won't work, they won't coordinate their attacks. They won't combine their attacks, they will fail because of that. They are not a team.. These are three individuals who will try to take him on, almost one by one by one. Untill all three are dead.
Its enough to stun him or weaken him, distract him from the fight for a few seconds. Thats all they would need really..
Ok he can beat them individually, but their are 3 of them not one.
You're missing the point Akbar, Kun is superior to every individual against him in BOTH saber skills, force powers, strength, and speed. All three of them. If you can envision the dynamics of a fight, you'd know it's not that easy to attack a foe that's faster, stronger, better, and has more intangibles (in this case: force) than you and expect to be able to simply corner him. Could the three force Kun to backpedal? Probably, but they would have a difficult time even trying to get through his defenses.
Kun likely can swing his blade as fast as yoda, and he has two of them to his one, and if Yoda begins flipping, Mace and Dooku have next to no opportunity to attack without getting gored by the monkey's blade. Dooku's style requires precision, but there's no evidence suggesting he is precise enough to get through Exar's defenses at all.
You're simplifying the equation too much. This isn't the 3 opponents rolled into 1 attacking Kun, this is 3 opponents of lesser caliber attacking the Ancient Sith Lord who has faced ridiculous odds before.
Agreed, Illustrious.
Nai, obviously we're not getting anywhere. Me convincing you or you convincing me obviously requires different thoughts and opinions we both have, since the factual data alone is creating two different lines of thought. I believe you are several overrating the PT era jedi, and you say I am underrating them.
Well, Yoda could barely hold his own against Sidious. Yeah, Yoda was better, but not enough to win the fight. And this is the person you're claiming is the best jedi in the order. Sidious is well below Kun's level.
How does this equate that Yoda, Mace, and Dooku have this 100% chance to overwhelm him and destroy him? It doesn't make any sense.
Originally posted by Deus Ex
Agreed, Illustrious.Nai, obviously we're not getting anywhere. Me convincing you or you convincing me obviously requires different thoughts and opinions we both have, since the factual data alone is creating two different lines of thought. I believe you are several overrating the PT era jedi, and you say I am underrating them.
Well, Yoda could barely hold his own against Sidious. Yeah, Yoda was better, but not enough to win the fight. And this is the person you're claiming is the best jedi in the order. Sidious is well below Kun's level.
How does this equate that Yoda, Mace, and Dooku have this 100% chance to overwhelm him and destroy him? It doesn't make any sense.
The lightsaber fight only lasted about 1 minute or so. Before they both seperated and sids started to throw senate pods at yoda... how was yoda suppose to beat him when he had to dodge every pod thrown at him. And yoda lost his lightsaber because of the force lightning. Big mistake. So yoda had very bad luck, and you know it. The entire fight was in sids favor.
Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
The lightsaber fight only lasted about 1 minute or so. Before they both seperated and sids started to throw senate pods at yoda... how was yoda suppose to beat him when he had to dodge every pod thrown at him. And yoda lost his lightsaber because of the force lightning. Big mistake. So yoda had very bad luck, and you know it. The entire fight was in sids favor.
You know that this is counterintuitive to your argument that Kun would lose, right?