Ganthet vs Spectre! Once and for all!

Maybe you're right. Even though Spectre is a magical being and can steal magic, that doesn't automatically prevent him from stealing other types of powers. Even one so vast and limitless as the Power of the Guardians. Although from his conversation with Shazam, why would he say I can absorb magic? Why not just say power? Why would he refer to himself as a magical being rather than a powered being or a powerful being when he is talking to Shazam as he's draining him?

Regardless, the absence of direct evidence is something I've abhorred in kevdude's analyses. Although Spectre didn't say it was Hal's want for redemption that stopped him, apparently that's what kept Spectre from doing his job. Although Hal never even said or thought the word 'redemption' once throughout GL: Rebirth and the new ongoing series, that is what Hal kept fighting for throughout GL: Rebirth.

If anything, Spectre didn't absorb the Power of the Guardians from Hal during Zero Hour. That surely would have hurt him. But the facts remain, Ganthet said Spectre is nothing to him. Parallax repeats this assessment. Parallax also says Spectre is nothing to him. So there is direct evidence of my theory 'Ganthet w/ Power of Guardians > Spectre.' Kevdude's argument that 1) Ganthet is wrong 2) Parallax is mocking Ganthet and 3) Parallax is cocky just seem waaaay too stretched to be taken at face value.

I think your view is very suspect and I can't find any printed words throughout GL: Rebirth that directly confirm what you say. And in fact, there's a lot of printed words that contradict you! But apparently, I can't read them like that because you argue there's a different meaning to what is actually being said or thought. Go figure. How do I fight against that? "Those words in thought captions and in conversation bubbles don't really mean what they say." I had thought, that this shaky view and my solid presentation of the events would be enough to convince you. Apparently not. But feel free to renew the argument to crack my view. You don't have to limit yourself to the six premises anymore. Feel free to take a shot at something else.

Dude, Parallax is way cocky, so is Ganthet (but he has power to back it up)

Why did Spex said I CAN ABSORB ANY MAGIC.......
You wouldnt say "I had sex with everything and everyone in the world" to boast to your partner wouldnt you...... "I had sex with every sexy girl in the world:"//// Now that sounds more masculine and less gay !!!

He said what suits the situation best !!!

And yes, thats not a comical fact, but MY opinion, a Spectre fan !

oneDumb when Ganthet said "even the power of the Spectre Dwarfs the Guardians" that means he is saying The Spectre is more powerful then all of the Guardians even him Ok?? not the other way around like a a lot of other people believe.. If DC and the writers did really mean it as Ganthet saying he is more powerful then The Spectre then it would still work with The Spectre being more powerful then the Guardians as what Parallax said when he was entering Ganthet "Without Jordain's soul without the spirit of vengeance., I have no hands holding me in PLACE, You said The Spectre was nothing compared to Your power Guardian, and Parallax still lives in YOU" That means if the first statement is wrong and it should say Ganthet is supposedly saying hes more powerful then The Spectre then in Parallax's statement he is arguing what Ganthet said saying "If you are more powerful then The Spectre then how can I still be here alive and YOu can't hurt me??" he then enters Ganthet.. Understand??

Whether or not the first statement is wrong is not the argument, the argument is whether Spectre > Ganthet, which he clearly does... 😮‍💨

Yeehaw !!!

Originally posted by kevdude
oneDumb when Ganthet said "even the power of the Spectre Dwarfs the Guardians" that means he is saying The Spectre is more powerful then all of the Guardians even him Ok?? not the other way around like a a lot of other people believe.. If DC and the writers did really mean it as Ganthet saying he is more powerful then The Spectre then it would still work with The Spectre being more powerful then the Guardians as what Parallax said when he was entering Ganthet "Without Jordain's soul without the spirit of vengeance., I have no hands holding me in PLACE, You said The Spectre was nothing compared to Your power Guardian, and Parallax still lives in YOU" That means if the first statement is wrong and it should say Ganthet is supposedly saying hes more powerful then The Spectre then in Parallax's statement he is arguing what Ganthet said saying "If you are more powerful then The Spectre then how can I still be here alive and YOu can't hurt me??" he then enters Ganthet.. Understand??

Why does reading all this require such a degree of perception that I can't take it for face value and there's something more important that completely sets those things in reverse?! Man, in any formalized debate, this kind of logic would literally be laughed at! If Spectre had said, "My power is greater than yours Ganthet." Would you believe me if I said, thats not what he really meant because of etc, etc?! Throw me a frickin bone here!

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
[b]6) Spectre stating he is defeating Shazam with Shazam's own power.
[/B]

Well he can do that to Ganthet ~!

😕 are we reading the same comic books???? if you read Rebirth correctly and DOV and anything else that has to do with The Spectre he is more powerful then Ganthet. If you said Ganthet owns The Spectre on any other comic book forums u would be laughed at totally for not understanding Rebirth..... Hardly anyone if you read the forums correctly agree that Ganthet > Spectre, they are all saying The Spectre > Ganthet from looking at how the characters react with each other and other things that happened in Rebirth.

Do you hate The Spectre or what???? It seems you aren't even trying to look into what he is doing or saying to combat your own thoughts that Ganthet > Spectre.. I have said time and time again how The Spectre > Ganthet, and how it works in the Rebirth storyline... Think about it really hard and reread Rebirth another 10 times to understand it...

Also The Spectre does not have to come out and say "I am more powerful then you Ganthet", No he is already saying it WHEN YOU LOOK AT HIS ACTIONS IN THE COMIC BOOK. The Spectre couldn't remove Parallax from Hal because he needed Hals help, before Hal knew what Spectre was doing he was trying to burn Parallax out of Hal himself without Hal's help, he couldn't do it because it would take both of them since Hal is a host for both Spectre and Parallax. Alone Parallax wouldn't even think about doing anything to The Spectre..

When did Ganthet ever try to fight Parallax??? Well he was there helping the JSA and JLA trying to fight it, and none of them was doing anything to Parallax at that time....

During the fight between Spectre and Shazam, he is in Shazams own place of power where he would be at his most powerful.. Are you ignoring that??? Yes???? If anyone is cheating its Shazam not fighting somewhere where it would be fair, he would get the crap beat out of him if he did that and you know it!!! Give Spectre a break hes been fighting and fighting for days. During all this time he has taken on Phantom Stranger turning him into a mouse, Captian Marvel with every magical being in the DC Earth helping him, Blackbriar Thorn and nearly 700 other sorcers at the same time, Doctor Fate, had his chest and head literally cracked open from Black Adam while he was fighting other beings at the same time and dealt with Black Adam also, was blinded by a 5D character Thunderbolt but was STILL able to send him back to the 5th Dimension...

No the Spectre hasn't really been fighting like hell for the past few months (days in comics), give me a break!!! 😑

Originally posted by kevdude
The Spectre couldn't remove Parallax from Hal because he needed Hals help, before Hal knew what Spectre was doing he was trying to burn Parallax out of Hal himself without Hal's help, he couldn't do it because it would take both of them since Hal is a host for both Spectre and Parallax. Alone Parallax wouldn't even think about doing anything to The Spectre..

1) Hallax reignites the sun and dies in the process.
2) Spectre connects with Hal for the sole purpose of burning out Parallax.
3) Years go by and Spectre has not done this. In fact, Parallax has been getting stronger up until the beginning of Rebirth. Spectre fails monumentally when Parallax completely emerges.
4) Spectre finally realizes he needs help. He asks Hal to fight Parallax in the one way Spectre can't. He reveals to Hal, the truth.
5) Hal realizes that he must recognize fear and fight against it.
6) Hal does this and weakens Parallax's connection to Hal's soul so much that Spectre's lesser power finally seals the deal.

What does this timeline illustrate? Spectre was not more powerful than Parallax. On a pure power level, Spectre's power of vengeance was useless against Parallax. In fact, you could say Parallax's power dwarfs even the Spectre. Kinda like how the Power of the Guardians dwarfs the Spectre, huh?

To reiterate, Spectre's ineffectualness and lack of power against Parallax is a testament to the fact that he had less power than Parallax. Since the Power of the Guardian's beat Parallax once before, obviously, Ganthet w/ Power of Guardians is stronger than Parallax. Thus both are more powerful than Spectre. This is supported by Ganthet's and Parallax's own statements that they are more powerful than the Spectre.

Originally posted by kevdude
During the fight between Spectre and Shazam, he is in Shazams own place of power where he would be at his most powerful.. Are you ignoring that??? Yes???? If anyone is cheating its Shazam not fighting somewhere where it would be fair, he would get the crap beat out of him if he did that and you know it!!! Give Spectre a break hes been fighting and fighting for days. During all this time he has taken on Phantom Stranger turning him into a mouse, Captian Marvel with every magical being in the DC Earth helping him, Blackbriar Thorn and nearly 700 other sorcers at the same time, Doctor Fate, had his chest and head literally cracked open from Black Adam while he was fighting other beings at the same time and dealt with Black Adam also, was blinded by a 5D character Thunderbolt but was STILL able to send him back to the 5th Dimension...

No the Spectre hasn't really been fighting like hell for the past few months (days in comics), give me a break!!! 😑

Once again, look at what Spectre says and does:

You have to also remember that Shazam was a bit drained from his tussle with Mordru. Shazam is a high member of the Lords of Order hes also the most powerful member of the Quintessence imo. Ganthet is pretty high as well.

The opening to the new GL Corps: Recharge comic line is also quite illustrative. The Guardians are the oldest and most powerful beings in existence. Let's not forget, God created the Spectre as a result of his failure with Eclipso. So Ganthet basically pre-existed Spectre. Keeping this in mind as your context, it can help you understand how Ganthet w/ Power of the Guardians dwarfs the Spectre.

Now, just think about the power they harness and for what purpose they wield it. 1) Ganthet wields the Power of the Guardians, a fundamental and limitless aspect of the Source. They protect against evil and compel order throughout the entire universe. 2) Spectre wields magical power of vengeance granted to him by God. His power is very limited in scope and purpose. He uses magic to punish evildoing beings. (Too bad this power was worthless on its own against Parallax).

Originally posted by jrodslam
You have to also remember that Shazam was a bit drained from his tussle with Mordru. Shazam is a high member of the Lords of Order hes also the most powerful member of the Quintessence imo. Ganthet is pretty high as well.

I happen to think that Ganthet is the most powerful of the Quintessence since he stewards the Power of the Guardians. Thats an entire spectrum or aspect of the Source that he wields. Whereas Shazam's power is magic, and he doesn't hold a monopoly on that. In fact, the Phantom Stranger and Zeus are magical as well.

Lastly, I think there is pretty strong proof that Spectre could not pull the same trick against Ganthet that he did with Shazam. Spectre says himself, that as a magical being he can draw magic from anywhere (see above picture). He doesn't say he can draw power. Additionally, if he could draw ANY power he wanted, then he should have been able to draw Parallax's power into him, but he didn't and couldn't. Therefore, it seems pretty obvious that he can pull the siphon trick only with magic.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Let's not forget, God created the Spectre as a result of his failure with Eclipso. So Ganthet basically pre-existed Spectre. Keeping this in mind as your context, it can help you understand how Ganthet w/ Power of the Guardians dwarfs the Spectre.

GOD created Spectre as a result of his failure with Eclipso? Not as a result of the angel Raphael repenting his sins for rebelling against heaven?

Ive never heard about it being because of Eclipso.

Originally posted by jrodslam
GOD created Spectre as a result of his failure with Eclipso? Not as a result of the angel Raphael repenting his sins for rebelling against heaven?

Ive never heard about it being because of Eclipso.

👆 Cool.

And knowing is half the battle!

I agree The Spectre underestimated Parallax, but Parallax underestimated The Spectre/Hal more.

"He asks Hal to fight Parallax in the one way Spectre can't. He reveals to Hal, the truth"
That is true but its only because his host is wanting redemption not vengeance. The Spectre realised that redemption could not get rid of Parallax without Hal switching to vengeance. when Hal was halfway getting rid of Parallax, The Spectre is not helping at all (because he knows it won't work). the Spectre says Only Vengeance, Hal switches to vengeance at that time and The Spectre easily separates all 3 of them from each other....

6) Hal does this and weakens Parallax's connection to Hal's soul so much that Spectre's lesser power finally seals the deal (ehhhh???)
The Spectre easily got rid of Parallax when Hal switched to vengeance. How can you say "Spectre's lesser power"????

Have you not read the part that I told you to read 3-4 times now???? When they are all separated from each other Hal demands The Spectre to destroy Parallax. Hal KNOWS The Spectre can destroy it when its not connected with him. Parallax didn't even dare fight The Spectre when he was right NEXT TO HIM!!!! After The Spectre leaves Parallax tells Ganthet that he has no hands (Spectre/Hal) holding him in place.
Juntai on this board has even said in the Spectre series with Hal, Hal says The Guardians power is nothing to The Spectre's power, they are like candles and he is like a sun.

Also about the part with Shazam the Wizard. While they are both talking before the fight, Shazam is trying to figure out what is going on with The Spectre, The Spectre gets pissed and says "Do you think to understand me??? Can you actually imagine I'd Look for wisdom in the insipid babble of a Child?? Though you affect the aspect of a frail old man, all you years compared to mine are hardly more than a life span of a mayfly." Nobody knows what is really going on right now with The Spectre but The Spectre himself.

You say Shazam had The Spectre beat???/ No he didn't, Shazam even thinks The Spectre is drained of power which is not true. The Spectre slowly gets up like a monster and says "No Power?" Ignorant backworld conjurer, I AM Power" "I am the undying Spirit of Vengeance. I'll exist as long as there's a need for dark judgement and divine retribution." "And I can't be permanently drained of power until all magic is gone." The Spectre didn't have to take magic from Shazam/his fortress and anything else that is owned by Shazam, he could have taken it from anywhere he wanted!!! The main reason he was taking using Shazams power on himself was because he was showing off to Shazam how powerful he (The Spectre) really is (which is very very powerful).

Go back and reread GL Rebirth another 10+ times to really understand what is going on. Do the same in DOV reread it another 10+ times because you seem you are almost there but just not there yet.

Originally posted by kevdude
The Spectre realised that redemption could not get rid of Parallax without Hal switching to vengeance. when Hal was halfway getting rid of Parallax, The Spectre is not helping at all (because he knows it won't work). the Spectre says Only Vengeance, Hal switches to vengeance at that time and The Spectre easily separates all 3 of them from each other....

Lastly, Hal never switches to vengeance. Spectre's quote of vengeance right before the seperation, is Spectre's misguided attempts to use vengeance against Parallax. Hal actually chastizes Spectre for focusing on vengeance solely. Hal knows its not about vengeance and he's yelling at Spectre to recognize that vengeance doesn't mean squat against Parallax. Now what pure indisputable fact supports this? The pure fact that Spectre could not seperate Hal from Parallax with vengeance the entire time they were together.

The way you state it, is that only because Hal switches to vengeance at the behest of the Spectre are they able to seperate from Parallax. On its face you cannot hope to reconcile it with two indisputable facts. Those two facts are 1) The most powerful form of vengeance is the Spectre. 2) Spectre could not seperate the two the entire time.

He recognized the fear and fought against it. Call it courage if anything. Why would Hal switching to vengeance even make a difference if that's what it was? What more vengeance do you need than the Spectre burning you with vengeance from within? And yet, from the Spectre's own mouth, the power of vengeance was completely useless the whole time the three were together.

Originally posted by kevdude
I agree The Spectre underestimated Parallax, but Parallax underestimated The Spectre/Hal more.

"He asks Hal to fight Parallax in the one way Spectre can't. He reveals to Hal, the truth"
That is true but its only because his host is wanting redemption not vengeance. The Spectre realised that redemption could not get rid of Parallax without Hal switching to vengeance. when Hal was halfway getting rid of Parallax, The Spectre is not helping at all (because he knows it won't work). the Spectre says Only Vengeance, Hal switches to vengeance at that time and The Spectre easily separates all 3 of them from each other....

6) Hal does this and weakens Parallax's connection to Hal's soul so much that Spectre's lesser power finally seals the deal (ehhhh???)
The Spectre easily got rid of Parallax when Hal switched to vengeance. How can you say "Spectre's lesser power"????

Have you not read the part that I told you to read 3-4 times now???? When they are all separated from each other Hal demands The Spectre to destroy Parallax. Hal KNOWS The Spectre can destroy it when its not connected with him. Parallax didn't even dare fight The Spectre when he was right NEXT TO HIM!!!! After The Spectre leaves Parallax tells Ganthet that he has no hands (Spectre/Hal) holding him in place.
Juntai on this board has even said in the Spectre series with Hal, Hal says The Guardians power is nothing to The Spectre's power, they are like candles and he is like a sun.

Also about the part with Shazam the Wizard. While they are both talking before the fight, Shazam is trying to figure out what is going on with The Spectre, The Spectre gets pissed and says "Do you think to understand me??? Can you actually imagine I'd Look for wisdom in the insipid babble of a Child?? Though you affect the aspect of a frail old man, all you years compared to mine are hardly more than a life span of a mayfly." Nobody knows what is really going on right now with The Spectre but The Spectre himself.

You say Shazam had The Spectre beat???/ No he didn't, Shazam even thinks The Spectre is drained of power which is not true. The Spectre slowly gets up like a monster and says "No Power?" Ignorant backworld conjurer, I AM Power" "I am the undying Spirit of Vengeance. I'll exist as long as there's a need for dark judgement and divine retribution." "And I can't be permanently drained of power until all magic is gone." The Spectre didn't have to take magic from Shazam/his fortress and anything else that is owned by Shazam, he could have taken it from anywhere he wanted!!! The main reason he was taking using Shazams power on himself was because he was showing off to Shazam how powerful he (The Spectre) really is (which is very very powerful).

Go back and reread GL Rebirth another 10+ times to really understand what is going on. Do the same in DOV reread it another 10+ times because you seem you are almost there but just not there yet.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You're right in one sense, the Spectre is an angel who repented for his sins. But the purpose of the Spectre was to replace Eclipso, who was God's original avatar. It was John Ostrander (the main writer responsible for modern-age Spectre) who wrote this: Eclipso was an avatar that carried out revenge, as opposed to the Spectre, a pure avatar of vengeance, which is more in line with God's will.

Then in issue 4 of Volume 4, Hal's series.
He saw past the Wrath, and found The Logoz.
A piece of God itself, rather than just "The Wrath.".

In Legends of the DCU, Spectre, that kicked off before Hal's series did, right after Day of Judgment. He compared the power of OA as a flickering candle next to an exploding sun. And that was BEFORE he realised the true power of the Spectre, after finding the Logoz.
Because The Wrath itself was limiting him, so that he did not go crazy and try to recreate the universe in his image, and with Spectre's power, he would have been unstoppable.

This is all well documented.

Originally posted by Juntai
In Legends of the DCU, Spectre, that kicked off before Hal's series did, right after Day of Judgment. He compared the power of OA as a flickering candle next to an exploding sun. And that was BEFORE he realised the true power of the Spectre, after finding the Logoz.
Because The Wrath itself was limiting him, so that he did not go crazy and try to recreate the universe in his image, and with Spectre's power, he would have been unstoppable.

1) During 'Zero Hour,' Parallax was able to oppose Spectre.
2) During 'Rebirth,' Spectre admitted his power was worthless against Parallax.
3) During 'Day of Vengeance,' Spectre admitted to Eclipso that he was almost destroyed by Shadowpact and Capt. Marvel. He was again weakened to such a degree that he was forced to steal Shazam's magic and turn it against him to win.

How do you reconcile his vast omnipotence with these occurences? If that analogy is correctly read as Spectre's power of vengeance is an exploding sun next to Power of Guardians, then he would have no problem with any of the above conflicts. Yet he did, and that all supports this reconciliation:

Power of Oa (same thing as Power of the Guardians) is a flickering candle as compared to God. Spectre was referencing the ultimate source of his power, and not the power of vengeance itself. Just ask yourself this question: if everything you say is true, since the Power of the Guardians has the capability of remaking the universe then Spectre also can remake the universe, more easily. Why doesn't he just blink out all of magic? Why can he be weakened to such a degree by any magic for that matter? Reason: Spectre is not as powerful as you think.

Or, more drastically, since 'Rebirth,' Spectre has lost access to a vast amount of his powers, which would end up supporting my conclusions.