Originally posted by kevdudeYou said it yourself in the underlined sentence. He took it from somewhere else. His own power at that point wasn't enough because it was drained in all his fights. The ability to drain magic is not the same as having enough power to defeat magic. Its like saying that Dr. Doom's feat of absorbing Surfer's Power Cosmic means that Dr. Doom is greater than the Power Cosmic. That's ridiculous and everyone knows it.
You say Shazam had The Spectre beat???/ No he didn't, Shazam even thinks The Spectre is drained of power which is not true. The Spectre slowly gets up like a monster and says "No Power?" Ignorant backworld conjurer, I AM Power" "I am the undying Spirit of Vengeance. I'll exist as long as there's a need for dark judgement and divine retribution." "And I can't be permanently drained of power until all magic is gone." The Spectre didn't have to take magic from Shazam/his fortress and anything else that is owned by Shazam, he could have taken it from anywhere he wanted!!! The main reason he was taking using Shazams power on himself was because he was showing off to Shazam how powerful he (The Spectre) really is (which is very very powerful).
This is the point. If you're saying that Spectre is like an exploding sun when compared to a fundamental aspect of the Source itself, then how could any magician, no matter how many there are, even begin to drain him of power as happened twice in 'Day of Vengeance?'
Let me cut you off before you try to reason it by saying that there were thousands of magicians who did it, because that would be a bad move on your part. If you say this was the reason, then that could easily lead into the assumption that thousands of Green Lanterns wielding the Power of the Guardians could also weaken Spectre. If you think this is right, then you just proved my own point for me, Power of Guardians > Spectre.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Your intepretation and what actually happened are very different things however, Spectre defeated the Shadowpact, and Spectre defeated Hal as well, the fight drained Hal dry, Kyle even noted it when Ollie was about to shoot him in the chest. Go read it again. "Hal's distracted and his power is almost gone, this is our chance!" In Crisis on Infinite Earths, Spectre destroyed and recreated the multiverse into the DCUniverse.. While fighting and banishing the Anti-Monitor no less. Even as a rookie, Corrigan, with the power of Spectre, slayed Elder Gods. Check out his Year One issue, when he dealt with Kolgoth Shugoth.
'Zero Hour' and 'Green Lantern: Rebirth' and hell, even 'Day of Vengeance' shows 3 things:1) During 'Zero Hour,' Parallax was able to oppose Spectre.
2) During 'Rebirth,' Spectre admitted his power was worthless against Parallax.
3) During 'Day of Vengeance,' Spectre admitted to Eclipso that he was almost destroyed by Shadowpact and Capt. Marvel. He was again weakened to such a degree that he was forced to steal Shazam's magic and turn it against him to win.How do you reconcile his vast omnipotence with these occurences? If that analogy is correctly read as Spectre's power of vengeance is an exploding sun next to Power of Guardians, then he would have no problem with any of the above conflicts. Yet he did, and that all supports this reconciliation:
Power of Oa (same thing as Power of the Guardians) is a flickering candle as compared to God. Spectre was referencing the ultimate source of his power, and not the power of vengeance itself. Just ask yourself this question: if everything you say is true, since the Power of the Guardians has the capability of remaking the universe then Spectre also can remake the universe, more easily. Why doesn't he just blink out all of magic? Why can he be weakened to such a degree by any magic for that matter? Reason: Spectre is not as powerful as you think.
Or, more drastically, since 'Rebirth,' Spectre has lost access to a vast amount of his powers, which would end up supporting my conclusions.
If you read the teasers for the upcoming Infintie Crisis issues, the heros eventually have to give in and beg Spectre to help them. lol.
Ok I'll give u 2 instances to think about where it shows in Rebirth that Ganthet is not as powerful as Spectre.
When Hal finally switched to Vengeance (and he did i'll get to that later) it was Spectre being shown that delivered the ultimate removal of Parallax from both of them (even though u kinda ignore that for some reason) !!! After The Spectre removed Parallax he was standing tall acting like he didn't even care what was going on with the Parallax fight that was going on in front of him. Hell Parallax was right in front of The Spectre when they was split apart and Parallax never even dared to fight Spectre when The Spectre was right in FRONT OF HIM!!! Also The Spectre looked as if he was completely healthy and fine after removing Parallax from Hal and himself.
About Hal switching to Vengeance now. All the time Hal was the Spectre's Host he was wanting Redemption right??? right. He never wanted to destroy anything seeing as though it wasn't what he wanted to do. The Spectre was wearing Hal down to the point Hal would eventually give up his Redemption idea and go to Vengeance giving The Spectre the power to remove Parallax from Hal himself. When Parallax was finally removed from Hal/Spectre what did he tell The Spectre to do with Parallax???? He DEMANDED The Spectre to destroy Parallax, The Spectre then told him he was leaving and not to demand something from The Spectre because he wasn't like his GL ring. Hal KNEW Spectre could destroy Parallax.
Another point to be made. When The Spectre/Hal removed Parallax from themselves, The Spectre was standing there as if he was totally healthy and fine. When the 5 other GL's and Ganthet removed Parallax from Ganthet, he was worn out. He looked like he went through hell and back just trying to removed Parallax from himself. If he (Ganthet) was soooooooooo powerful why would have he needed 5 GL's help?? hes not as powerful as u lead yourself to think.
2nd thing that shows Ganthet not as powerful as The Spectre. Ganthet HIMSELF even says The Spectre > Ganthet. "Even the POWER of The Spectre dwarfs the Guardians". That is what he really means. When Parallax says "you said The Spectre was nothing compared to your power guardian" that is Parallax's mistake not Ganthet's.
You are putting the Guardians up to The Spectre, The Word, and Archangel Michael. Yes hes powerful but not that powerful.
These are just a few instances where it shows The Spectre > the Guardians. Keep rereading DOV/Rebirth. I don't really want to write down all of DOV/Rebirth on here to show you how DC really means it. It would be a lot more fun reading it yourself and understanding it.
Originally posted by kevdudeI do believe that Hal was seeking redemption while all three were connected. Even before Spectre connected to Hal, at the end of 'Emerald Twilight,' he sacrificed himself to reignite the sun and undo all teh damage of the Suneater. However, Hal's ultimate salvation from the influence of Parallax was not vengeance. I'll give you several reasons why. The first is this: 1) When Hal advises the other GL's, he doesn't advise them to use vengeance against Parallax. He advises them to recognize fear and fight it on that level. He even states this to John after 'Rebirth' in the ongoing series. I think this speaks for itself in volumes. 2) Hal's search for redemption never led him anywhere because it wasn't what Hal was supposed to be doing. You see him make comments about how there's no more soul-searching, no more cries of vengeance (after he is revived), about how who he is and what he's doing with the Spectre doesn't feel right (early issues of 'Rebirth'😉, that none of what happened is ultimately doing anything in the picture below. That is why I'm saying that redemption and vengeance were useless and ultimately distracting him from the real solution. 3) Hal begins using dismissive language towards the Spectre when he is struggling with Parallax. Now, this is up to interpretation, so it isn't something I'm going to nitpick. 4) The fact that Parallax isn't removed by Spectre's own burning vengeance when he is connected to Hallax. Hal's switch to vengeance was the ultimate solution? What more vengeance than the SPECTRE do you need, I again ask to you?
About Hal switching to Vengeance now. All the time Hal was the Spectre's Host he was wanting Redemption right??? right. He never wanted to destroy anything seeing as though it wasn't what he wanted to do. The Spectre was wearing Hal down to the point Hal would eventually give up his Redemption idea and go to Vengeance giving The Spectre the power to remove Parallax from Hal himself. When Parallax was finally removed from Hal/Spectre what did he tell The Spectre to do with Parallax???? He DEMANDED The Spectre to destroy Parallax, The Spectre then told him he was leaving and not to demand something from The Spectre because he wasn't like his GL ring. Hal KNEW Spectre could destroy Parallax.Another point to be made. When The Spectre/Hal removed Parallax from themselves, The Spectre was standing there as if he was totally healthy and fine. When the 5 other GL's and Ganthet removed Parallax from Ganthet, he was worn out. He looked like he went through hell and back just trying to removed Parallax from himself. If he (Ganthet) was soooooooooo powerful why would have he needed 5 GL's help?? hes not as powerful as u lead yourself to think.
2nd thing that shows Ganthet not as powerful as The Spectre. Ganthet HIMSELF even says The Spectre > Ganthet. "Even the POWER of The Spectre dwarfs the Guardians". That is what he really means. When Parallax says "you said The Spectre was nothing compared to your power guardian" that is Parallax's mistake not Ganthet's.
You are putting the Guardians up to The Spectre, The Word, and Archangel Michael. Yes hes powerful but not that powerful.
Ultimately, these proofs I offer lead to the one essential idea, which was the theme of the whole story of 'Rebirth.' Redemption and vengeance were paths that Hal tried walking down but never got anywhere with. The entire time he was Spectrehallax, he knew something wasn't right. He says this. He knew all the things he was doing weren't getting him anywhere. And thus, he had to throw away all his ideas about redemption (obviously, because he was never ultimately responsible for his actions as Hallax) and throw away the ideas about vengeance (because you can't fight Parallax with vengeance, you have to recognize and overcome great fear). Fear was Parallax's hold on Hal's soul. It is what allowed him to twist Hal around to do his own bidding. When Hal's greatest fear of watching his dad die in a crash was something he could conquer, Parallax's grip loosened. He couldn't hold onto a man who has come to terms with and overcome his own greatest fear. This idea of fear and overcoming it, were echoed throughout 'Rebirth' and throughout the entire GL legend. You see now how this switch in themes works. You're getting back to the basics and essentials of what makes GL Hal work. He overcomes great fear with pure willpower. The ultimate victory is not one of redemption nor of vengeance. And the themes of redemption of vengeance never survive the series. GL #1 is all about a hero facing fear on different levels. On a societal level (is fear what rules society in the wake of terrorism and destruction?) and on a purely physically dangerous level (when Hal jumps out a burning jet to recharge his depleted ring by catching the Manhunter, ALL IN MID-AIR!). 😮💨
It sounds a bit lame to whitewash everything, and even Hal struggles with the idea that everything was Parallax's fault n the first place, but he accepts it. That is his ultimate victory, facing fear and conquering it. He doesn't redeem himself, and then proceeds to cast vengeance on Parallax to win. He ignores all of that and embraces the fear, conquers it and pushes past it. Without fear, Parallax is powerless and the yellow spectrum weakness is overcome. This entire analysis is quite possibly my biggest disagreement with you as to the interpretation of the storyline. Forget Ganthet vs. Spectre. The writers didn't comment or base the storyline around our argument. But they did base the entire storyline on Rebirth, a new beginning. A new beginning free from the god awful issues of redemption and vengeance that continued to restrict Hal's character. When you continue to focus on Hal's focus on vengeance and switch to vengeance as his ultimate salvation from Parallax's influence, it just does NOT make sense to me. This wasn't 'Green Lantern: Vengeance,' and this interpretation of yours seems waaay off point.
Now, moving onto your next comment, that is interesting that Ganthet seemed so weak after the seperation as opposed to Hal and Parallax. But I can explain it away without much issue. We know Ganthet is more powerful than Hal. Hal wasn't tired after being seperated. Does that mean Hal's soul is stronger than Ganthet? Obviously not. So your argument leads us nowhere. Secondly, the means of seperation were different. Parallax was forcibly seperated from the outside by continual barrages of attacks by GL's which hurt Ganthet as well and ultimately concluded with his being bottled up in the Lantern on Oa which Ganthet himself most likely had a hand in. Whereas Hal just fought fear, making Parallax's grip onto his soul weak. Two completely different methods of seperation and ultimately, your logic would support that Hal is stronger than Ganthet. So interesting observation, but easily explained.
Also, I will not get into this editorial typo argument again. We both talked about this over several posts. To put the issue at rest, I will refrain from using those statements to support my argument and so will you. No matter how often we post other people's thoughts on it, it is ambiguous at best. The lowdown is this, one character directly quotes another, but the comparison is reversed. Which comparison was the right one? The first one, or the quote? Ambiguous. We'll both stay away from that. I have attempted e-mailing Geoff Johns' webpage but received no e-mails in reply. We'll never know.
Finally, I am not putting Ganthet above anybody other than the Spectre. I do not have much information on Archangels and such, but my understanding of the Word is not in conflict with my view. I don't think Ganthet is more powerful than the Word. And I don't think this undoes anything I assert. I also fail to see the inherent problem with Ganthet's control over the Power of the Guardians as being sufficiently powerful to overshadow an avatar of vengeance, even if he is God's chosen avatar. Eclipso used to be God's chosen avatar of revenge. It didn't make that entity more powerful than the Quintessence. So past Juntai's postings, (I'll argue those seperately) tell me what would be fundamentally wrong with the DC universe, if the Power of the Guardians was a greater power than Spectre's burning power of vengeance? Lets argue now on a theoretical basis as we have butted heads endlessly on storyline interpretations and seem to be getting nowhere.
Re: Ganthet vs Spectre! Once and for all!
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
[b]Ganthet vs SpectreAlright, boys and toys. Unbeknowest to most in this vs forum, a raging debate has been forming in one particular vs thread. This debate is the above subject. It started because eleveninches started a 'Ganthet vs White Crown Phoenix' thread. Several opinions abounded, but one particular off-the-topic debate literally took over the thread. After several replies, the thread opener commented that, "Ganthet is more powerful than the Spectre" to which some replied, "Garbage!" That is how this started.
I have been the sole proponent for one side of this debate and now, since I have been unable to convince my opponents and I am honestly beginning to think they are partly ignoring my premises, I leave it to you other posters who may not have had a chance to weigh in on this topic with your own opinions. Thus, for your benefit, I have decided to repost every reply, rebuttal and whatnot directly pertaining to this debate in its entirety so that you may judge. It is basically Juntai and kevdude who believe 'Spectre > Ganthet' and I, OneDumbG0, who believes 'Ganthet > Spectre.'
Keep in mind, this is not the only forum to debate this topic. Right now, several other forums which I have googled are hotly debating this topic as well. The main points of reference are 'Green lantern: Rebirth' and 'Day of Vengeance.' So it is important for people to have read these. Please be patient with me as I upload every response individually and wait for my signal to begin a NEW round of debating. Thank you for your patience! [/B]
The real point is, your arguement of Ganthet being more powerful is weak, when he's never been shown to be more powerful at all. It's all grounded is offhand remarks and speculation. He DOES NOT have the feats to back this claim. Spectre on the other hand, has these feats of awesome power. One of them even includes him turning off Ganthet's powers.
Isn't that what Hal did??? He realized how to fight Parallax using Vengeance. Part of using Vengeance is Fighting and Facing Fear, Face To Face not running away from it. After Spectre realised he couldn't burn out Parallax out of Hal he knew he had to get Hal to switch to Vengeance. Hal is the Host to both Spectre/Parallax. The Spectre just can't remove Parallax from Hal when Hal doesn't even know whats going on, its a joint effort on them both. Alone The Spectre wouldn't even need to have any help at all fighting Parallax....
Re: Re: Ganthet vs Spectre! Once and for all!
Originally posted by JuntaiI'd like to know the context. I don't think my arguments are weak since i've backed them up. Several facts for you to chew on:
The real point is, your arguement of Ganthet being more powerful is weak, when he's never been shown to be more powerful at all. It's all grounded is offhand remarks and speculation. He DOES NOT have the feats to back this claim. Spectre on the other hand, has these feats of awesome power. One of them even includes him turning off Ganthet's powers.
1) The Power of the Guardians was sufficient to disposses Parallax of his control of a great portion of the universe near the beginning of time. Spectre though, couldn't even seperate Parallax from one soul on his own.
2) The Power of the Guardians is a limitless fundamental aspect of the Source. Spectre is an avatar of vengeance powered by magic. Apparently his magic is not limitless and he has been forced to pull magic from elsewhere in his battles like in 'Day of Vengeance.'
3) You may dispute #2, but he did this also in 'Crisis on Infinite Earths.' He had to have his own powers enforced with all the mages he could find including the Phantom Stranger in the lead up battle to the conclusion. Before even that, Spectre admitted his power was worthless in the anti-matter universe since he is a magical being by the way, fyi.
4) The Power of the Guardians has been shown to be powerful enough to remake the universe in Zero Hour.
5) Krona, a fellow Oan of Ganthet (or fellow Malthusan based on your nitpickiness), was basically responsible for creating the anti-matter universe and the Anti-Monitor himself. The resolution of 'Crisis on Infinite Earths' all revolved around the actions of an Oan. You point to a spoiler that shows Spectre has big rumblings in the coming Infinite Crisis, but do not forget what role the Guardians will play.
Originally posted by kevdudeNo. I don't know how you could equate the two. From now on, I'll call what Hal utilized: courage. I don't like calling it courage, but its the simplest word I can think of. My "idea" of courage that freed him is "Facing your greatest fear and overcoming it." Here, Hal was being possessed by a cosmic entity of living fear. It worked his fears on him. So what he did was remembered his greatest fear, his dad's death. Once he embraced that and conquered that, the fear that Parallax held on him meant nothing.
Isn't that what Hal did??? He realized how to fight Parallax using Vengeance. Part of using Vengeance is Fighting and Facing Fear, Face To Face not running away from it. After Spectre realised he couldn't burn out Parallax out of Hal he knew he had to get Hal to switch to Vengeance. Hal is the Host to both Spectre/Parallax. The Spectre just can't remove Parallax from Hal when Hal doesn't even know whats going on, its a joint effort on them both. Alone The Spectre wouldn't even need to have any help at all fighting Parallax....
This idea is supported by Hal's flashbacks and conversations with his ex-girlfriend about how watching his father die was his worst fear. He flashbacks to it when he explains to the other GL's how to bypass Parallax's powers. So, from now on, I'll call it courage.
Now, I don't see how you could equate that courage with vengeance. In any respect, whether its revenge or avenging or retribution... what does that have to do with Hal's greatest fear? Hal didn't avenge his father's accident, he didn't deal out retribution on anybody.
On the other hand, we all know that Spectre tried fighting Parallax with vengeance. He says it himself below, "I had hoped... to cast vengeance upon it (Parallax) for all the death and fear it spread throughout God's universe." Obviously he failed. At that point, I think it should be obvious to the reader, at least to Hal, that you cannot fight fear with vengeance. Even Spectre couldn't judge Parallax. This is explicit in the storyline because Parallax was gaining in strength the whole time all three were connected together. These are the reasons why I believe that any of your ideas stemming from Hal switching to vengeance are incorrect. I think its a stretch and contradicts several important flashbacks, actions and conversations which are not as ambiguous as the 'Ganthet vs. Spectre garbage.'
Again, ask yourself this question, does what I state, make sense? Here, we have a story of a hero overcoming great fear. He recognizes his greatest fear and fights against a cosmic entity of living fear that threatens the universe. It all comes back to what makes a Green Lantern a Green Lantern and why Hal is the greatest Green Lantern. Abin Sur himself said in the famous origin that "You will overcome great fear." Everything comes back to a beginning, or as aptly titled 'Rebirth.' If this was all about redemption, then 'Emerald Twilight' would have been the end of it. If this was all about vengeance, Hal as the Spectre would have been the final chapter. But its about neither, its about the courage of a hero. Its a simple poetry and quite thematic at times and Geoff Johns pulled it off very well. I hope that I've convinced you that this reading of the story is the most consistent.
Now, what is the importance of this in our argument? It presents a fundamental coloring of opinion on just how powerful Spectre was with regards to Parallax. I think he was utterly useless and Hal did most of the work. You think Spectre did most of the work and was shown to be stronger than Parallax.
You've now examined my reading of the themes inherent in 'Rebirth,' and perhaps now you can see why I think Spectre was worthless and powerless against Parallax. Again, his limitations as an avatar of vengeance limited his role in the entire storyline. He couldn't cast vengeance and judgement on Parallax. He even states how he has failed. Now, the Guardians have fought Parallax before as Kyle had told Ollie. Towards the beginning of the universe, Parallax had nearly infected the entire universe with fear and had grown tremendously powerful. It was the Guardians who beat him definitively and sealed him for so long. The Guardians harnessed the Power of the Guardians. So do you see the comparison? Spectre was nothing as compared to the Power of the Guardians. Just the mere reading of the history of Parallax points to this.
Your reading is that Spectre did most of the work. I think this is incorrect. The first inconsistency is, why did Spectre fail before Hal started taking things into his own hands? What was the point of Hal recognizing his greatest fear if he only needed to think about vengeance to beat Parallax? Why didn't Hal use vengeance to fight Parallax in the climax along with the other GL's? I think the answers to these questions defeat your interpretation of 'Rebirth.'
But even if I move past this, all your questions about Hal asking Spectre to destroy Parallax can be explained. Parallax's powerbase was inside Hal and Spectre. He harnessed their powers and was being fed by the fear of the heroes. However, once Hal seperated everybody (with a lil nudge by the Spectre), Parallax had no base and nothing to hold onto. So I agree that Spectre MIGHT have been able to destroy him at that point and this admission does nothing to undo my logic. In fact, I think it strengthens it.
And it all adds up to the climax that I have been espousing which supports my contention that Ganthet > Spectre. Parallax was basically beaten, but he infected Ganthet and that allowed him to resurrect himself in an even more powerful form then he was in as Spectrehallax. He was now Ganthellax. Hence, the heightening sense of danger at the climax, the artist's renditions of an enormously huge Ganthellax making the heroes look tiny, Ganthellax being able to infect the entire world so quickly with fear. It all escalates. If you want just a pure illustration, look at the posted picture below. The top part is what Spectrehallax looks like, the bottom part is what Ganthellax looks like. See the huge difference?
Most importantly, that escalation is supported by a heightened sense of crisis which is based on the heightened stakes and powers. Your theory when applied to the climax makes the story go backwards and I don't think it holds up as a climax. I also do not believe it holds up as the general theme that makes Hal great. Hal turns to vengeance to win? What kind of story is that? Hal overcomes great fear as Abin Sur first prophesized in Hal's origin as GL? Now that sounds like a return to the triumph of Hal as GL, now that sounds like a 'Rebirth.'
My question to you is, if my reading of the story is right, isn't it logical that "Ganthet w/ Power of the Guardians > Spectre" is supported by 1) Spectre's admitted ineffectiveness as opposed to the Guardians who punked Parallax once already, 2) the heightened climax at the end that makes Spectrehallax look weak compared to Ganthellax, and 3) just in keeping with the themes of the storyline of overcoming great fear and coming back to a new beginning?
Originally posted by JuntaiOh yeah, about this also. I think you need to reread 'Crisis on Infinite Earths.' Spectre never banished Anti-Monitor by himself. That is just a complete misread of what happened. When Anti-Monitor went back in #10 of 'Crisis on Infinite Earths,' the Spectre did indeed engage him. But the Spectre was being fed by the most powerful sorcerers available at the time. So you can hardly call it Spectre going mano-y-mano against the Anti-Monitor. Secondly, he did not banish the Anti-Monitor. He came back in the very next issue and threatened everybody again. I don't know how you confused that. In the conclusion it was the combined might of the heroes, specifically, Alexander Luthor, Superman-2 + (Barry Allen's Speedforce if you read epilogues) and Darkseid that ultimately did the Anti-Monitor in. Spectre was punked throughout this entire fight. I also am not sure how you interpreted that Spectre himself reconstructed the universe. I will get a trade paperback, since I read it a while ago, but even in summaries like this great one...
Your intepretation and what actually happened are very different things however, Spectre defeated the Shadowpact, and Spectre defeated Hal as well, the fight drained Hal dry, Kyle even noted it when Ollie was about to shoot him in the chest. Go read it again. "Hal's distracted and his power is almost gone, this is our chance!" In Crisis on Infinite Earths, Spectre destroyed and recreated the multiverse into the DCUniverse.. While fighting and banishing the Anti-Monitor no less. Even as a rookie, Corrigan, with the power of Spectre, slayed Elder Gods. Check out his Year One issue, when he dealt with Kolgoth Shugoth.
http://www.monitorduty.com/mdarchives/2005/10/alan_kistlers_g_2.shtml
... nothing is mentioned of Spectre doing anything consciously of his own power to ensure that the universe was constructed in the way it was. I mean, his big fight was to beat the Anti-Monitor and prevent further destruction, not to create a new universe. And he clearly did not beat the Anti-Monitor. He also failed in preventing the destruction of the other universes. The big ghost got an "F" in my opinion. If anything, the Anti-Monitor was responsible for destroying the multiverse and the ensuing struggle was responsible for the single DCuniverse. At the end, the Anti-Monitor came back to finish the job with one single universe, but was stopped by the heroes, not the Spectre. I'm interested to hear your interpretation of 'Crisis on Infinite Earths' to be honest because I think you give the Spectre waaay too much credit.
He does over come great fear but that was after The Spectre gets Hal to switch to Vengeance allowing Hal to have a chance to overcome great fear. In that picture it shows The Spectre talking to Hal about everything that has been going on with Hal and himself. Right before Spectre got interrupted by Parallax showing himself, Spectre says what after Gods Universe?? "And to Free you Soul arghh!" We never get to hear what Spectre was going to say there but by how he was acting and talking he was showing Hal how to fight Parallax. Parallax then interrupted him before he was done talking to Hal!!
When Hal finally switched to Vengeance and Parallax was removed from him he was on his way to Heaven when Ganthet tried to stop him, saying to Hal "follow my light" Hal then replied "Not Again I wont". This then led to Abin talking to Hal about Hal overcoming great fear. His father even appeared and told him to go back.. Hal never overcame great fear when he was separated by The Spectre. The Spectre finally was able to remove Parallax from Hal because Hal needed to know about Parallax being in him so Spectre could remove it from Hal. If Hal never found out about Parallax being in him and Spectre still continuing to try to burn out Parallax it wouldn't work see???? He needs Hal's help because it is Hal keeping Parallax connected with him.
How can you say Hal separated Parallax from himself and Spectre only helped with a little nudge?? That is completely wrong. It shows The Spectre literally forcing both of them out of all 3 of them while Parallax just falls away.
About Crisis on Infinite Earths. Who was the main being everyone wanted to fight the Anti-Monitor?? The Spectre. Where was The Guardians at?? If there power was so powerful why did everyone want The Spectre to help them fight?? Is Magic more powerful then The Guardians power?? Can anyone say The Anti-Monitor wouldn't have won if The Spectre was not there to slow him down and they both beat the living hell out of each other??? Even Darksied knew if he didn't act at that point to get rid of the Anti-Monitor, that would be the last chance everyone had. The chances of the universe being saved isn't realistic if Spectre was not there helping the heroes out.
In DOV when Captian Marvel was at the Rock of Eternity he says to the Spectre to stay away from him. These hits are having no effect at ALL on Spectre. Spectre says "SHAZAM" and CM is turned back into Billy. Billy is amazed at what Spectre just did and Spectre says "i can have any powers i want to child" and makes CM fall asleep.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Oh yeah, about this also. I think you need to reread 'Crisis on Infinite Earths.' Spectre never banished Anti-Monitor by himself. That is just a complete misread of what happened. When Anti-Monitor went back in #10 of 'Crisis on Infinite Earths,' the Spectre did indeed engage him. But the Spectre was being fed by the most powerful sorcerers available at the time. So you can hardly call it Spectre going mano-y-mano against the Anti-Monitor. Secondly, he did not banish the Anti-Monitor. He came back in the very next issue and threatened everybody again. I don't know how you confused that. In the conclusion it was the combined might of the heroes, specifically, Alexander Luthor, Superman-2 + (Barry Allen's Speedforce if you read epilogues) and Darkseid that ultimately did the Anti-Monitor in. Spectre was punked throughout this entire fight. I also am not sure how you interpreted that Spectre himself reconstructed the universe. I will get a trade paperback, since I read it a while ago, but even in summaries like this great one...http://www.monitorduty.com/mdarchives/2005/10/alan_kistlers_g_2.shtml
... nothing is mentioned of Spectre doing anything consciously of his own power to ensure that the universe was constructed in the way it was. I mean, his big fight was to beat the Anti-Monitor and prevent further destruction, not to create a new universe. And he clearly did not beat the Anti-Monitor. He also failed in preventing the destruction of the other universes. The big ghost got an "F" in my opinion. If anything, the Anti-Monitor was responsible for destroying the multiverse and the ensuing struggle was responsible for the single DCuniverse. At the end, the Anti-Monitor came back to finish the job with one single universe, but was stopped by the heroes, not the Spectre. I'm interested to hear your interpretation of 'Crisis on Infinite Earths' to be honest because I think you give the Spectre waaay too much credit.
You're the one that needs to read it, dude. I have it.
He sent the Anti-Monitor back to his own universe. You're trying to twist the events again. In the next issue, when they engage him again, it's back in the anti-matter realm. Spectre banished him. Spectre was yelling"more power more power", then he shattered the universe and it was recreated as one. It's quite easy to see.
He also recreated the universe at the end of the Emperor Joker series.
During Final Night, he single handedly kept the Earth alive by sharing a piece of his power with Gaia.
I'm telling you. Spectre has the feats, Ganthet does not.
That pretty much proves this story, no matter how much bashing on him you try to do.
Originally posted by JuntaiSpectre shunted him into his own dimension..... and? You made it sound like Spectre ended the Crisis. He didn't. He was yelling for more power to prevent Anti-Monitor from destroying the positive matter universe at the dawn of time. As Anti-Monitor reaches for it, Spectre stops him from doing this, but I don't remember anything that pointed to the fact, that he stopped Anti-Monitor AND remade the last few universes into one. Everything just went white in my recollection as he was screaming. I don't remember any thought bubbles or narrative boxes that stated Spectre was attempting to construct the universe into one. If you have it, can you post that page I'm referencing?
You're the one that needs to read it, dude. I have it.He sent the Anti-Monitor back to his own universe. You're trying to twist the events again. In the next issue, when they engage him again, it's back in the anti-matter realm. Spectre banished him. Spectre was yelling"more power more power", then he shattered the universe and it was recreated as one. It's quite easy to see.
He also recreated the universe at the end of the Emperor Joker series.
During Final Night, he single handedly kept the Earth alive by sharing a piece of his power with Gaia.
I'm telling you. Spectre has the feats, Ganthet does not.
That pretty much proves this story, no matter how much bashing on him you try to do.
The remaking of the universe into one appeared to me to be a result of the clash between Spectre and Anti-Monitor and not the ultimate result that Spectre was hoping for. I can't remember anywhere where Spectre stated his plans to merge the universes into one anywhere at all. And besides, Spectre was asking for more power from the mages. You make it sound like he did all this under his own power and completely ignored the fact that he was indeed asking for more power from other people.
You made a blanket statement with your first post that made it sound like Spectre ended the Crisis. He didn't. The combined might of the heroes did. I mean... what was the big deal about him being in the anti-matter universe anyway? He pulled the combined Earth into the antimatter universe and started threatening it again and Spectre was comatose at that point and would have been worthless even if he was awake since he has no power in the anti-matter universe.
And about the Guardians role during the Crisis, Anti-Monitor took them out of the game first in like issue #2 with a sneak attack. I don't think its fair to say, just because they were out of action means that they were as worthless as the Crime Syndicate was. I think, the fact that Anti-Monitor went after them personally from the outset says a lot of their significance and the danger they posed to Anti-Monitor. If you think being waylaid during Crisis makes you worthless, then Spectre was worthless in the final climactic battle too, compared to Alexander Luthor, Superman-2 and Darkseid, because he was comatose and would have been unable to do anythign anyway since his power doesn't work in the anti-matter universe. My point being, we don't know what the Guardians could have done, because they weren't given the chance.
I'm not bashing Spectre. But just because the Power of the Guardians didn't get a chance to take on the Anti-Monitor isn't proof against its limits. The best tests are to see how the two powers react in similar situations:
1) Destroying and remaking the universe.
The Power of the Guardians has indeed destroyed the universe and remade it, same as Spectre. So we're even on that. Just cause Spectre did it more often, isn't proof that his power is greater. I mean, the time he supposedly did it in Crisis according to you (and I'll take your word on it, even though I would like to see that last page), he still needed help to do so. But, I'll leave that alone since apparently in 'Emperor Joker,' which I have not had the pleasure to read, he did it all by his lonesome. Fine.
2) 'Final Night'
How did the Power of the Guardians do when trying to keep the Earth alive during Final Night? It reversed the damage done and even reignited the sun and absorbed the Suneater to boot. How did the Spectre do when trying to keep the Earth alive during 'Final Night?' Kept it alive... but we never got to see whether Spectre could have done the other things. So we're even on that I guess also. Because, unlike you I don't assume that Spectre couldn't, just because he didn't get a chance to.
3) Anti-matter Universe effectiveness
How is the Power of the Guardians in the Anti-Matter Universe? Just fine. Spectre's power in the Anti-Matter Universe? Worthless. One for the Power of the Guardians definitely.
4) Fighting against Parallax.
How did the Power of the Guardians do against Parallax? At the dawn of time, it beat him almost completely, even when he was at the pinnacle of his power since he held the universe in the grip of fear. How did Spectre do against Parallax? Didn't have any effect whatsoever until Hal weakened his grip by overcoming fear. One more for the Power of the Guardians.
Personally, I don't know if the Power of the Guardians has ever defeated an Elder God. I haven't read enough GL comics. But I know that Nekron, Lord of the Unliving was defeated. He was pretty powerful. He owned his own dimension and had a connection with every being that ever died in the DCUniverse. Combined with Krona, he was causing the universe to collapse on itself also until the Guardians and GL Corp stopped him. But, I don't know if Nekron is on the same level to be honest.
Other things that I thought were interesting that I learned when reading about Alan Scott's origin is that the Guardians also tried trapping all random magic throughout the universe and imprisoning it in the Starheart, so that is somewhat comparable to Spectre's assault on magic. At the very least, it shows that the Power of the Guardians can manipulate magic...
So is the Power of the Guardians' performance alongside the Spectre's performance in those similar and directly analagous situations enough to convince you otherwise? I think I outlined it pretty well.
Originally posted by kevdudeI understand what you're saying. That Spectre's power was able to take effect because Hal switched to vengeance. But what proof do you see, other than extrapolation that directly evidences Hal's switch to vengeance or that this was Spectre's intent? I don't see any. Spectre even said his power of vengeance was worthless the whole time they were connected.
He does over come great fear but that was after The Spectre gets Hal to switch to Vengeance allowing Hal to have a chance to overcome great fear. In that picture it shows The Spectre talking to Hal about everything that has been going on with Hal and himself. Right before Spectre got interrupted by Parallax showing himself, Spectre says what after Gods Universe?? "And to Free you Soul arghh!" We never get to hear what Spectre was going to say there but by how he was acting and talking he was showing Hal how to fight Parallax. Parallax then interrupted him before he was done talking to Hal!!When Hal finally switched to Vengeance and Parallax was removed from him he was on his way to Heaven when Ganthet tried to stop him, saying to Hal "follow my light" Hal then replied "Not Again I wont". This then led to Abin talking to Hal about Hal overcoming great fear. His father even appeared and told him to go back.. Hal never overcame great fear when he was separated by The Spectre. The Spectre finally was able to remove Parallax from Hal because Hal needed to know about Parallax being in him so Spectre could remove it from Hal. If Hal never found out about Parallax being in him and Spectre still continuing to try to burn out Parallax it wouldn't work see???? He needs Hal's help because it is Hal keeping Parallax connected with him.
How can you say Hal separated Parallax from himself and Spectre only helped with a little nudge?? That is completely wrong. It shows The Spectre literally forcing both of them out of all 3 of them while Parallax just falls away.
Yes, Spectre needs help. He needs Hal to loosen Parallax's grip. But Hal doesn't loosen its grip with vengeance. He embraces and moves past his greatest fear and that's how Parallax's hold onto him is weakened. I don't know how I could make it any clearer than that. If an entity of living fear grips onto your soul through fear, how do you weaken its grip?
....With vengeance? Vengeance against what, his father's death? That makes absolutely no sense.
Hal weakened his grip by embracing his greatest fear and moving past it so that fear means nothing to him anymore. How many different times can I spell this out? I mean... this idea is repeated to the other GL's when Hal plans his final assault and even in the ongoing series when he and John encounter the color yellow.
Isn't that the clearest reason why Hal is ripping out of Parallax in the pictures posted? I mean, Hal is friggin arguing with Spectre to stop babbling about vengeance and help Hal fight it. His tone of voice sounds dismissive to Spectre's comments stubbornly clinging to vengeance. And I'll tell you why, because he knows that you don't fight fear with vengeance. You fight fear by embracing your greatest fear, moving past that and not letting fear effect you. That's why I keep saying Hal did most of the work. A flash of power worked at that point because Parallax's grip on Hal's soul was rendered nearly moot at that point. To be honest, I think any flash of power would have done the job.
And besides, Hal never told Ganthet he won't follow the light again. That's COMPLETELY incorrect. I mean, he DOES end up following the light to his body. That's how he is resurrected. You don't see his soul veering to the right away from heaven and zooming towards somewhere following Ganthet's ball of light? Where do you think that somewhere is? Its zooming to his body. If anything, Hal did EXACTLY what Ganthet asks him to do, and followed Ganthet's ball of light to his body. I don't understand how you could have confused that.
And finally, I fail to see how my explanation of things isn't more coherent, more thematic and more supported by the story's actions, words and flashbacks than yours. It just works better and sounds better in every way. It's like the only thing you hate about it, is that Hal's actions meant more in the seperation than Spectre's did. But doesn't that make sense since this was Hal's return and Hal's fight? How else can I spell it out?
Hal never told Ganthet he would never follow his light again??? 😑 WHAT??? Are you reading that at all ????? Ganthet says while he is being infected by Parallax "Hal Jordan... Follow My Light...." what does Hal say to Ganthet???? "Not Again... I Won't".... HOW IN THE WORLD DO U NOT THINK THATS HAL NOT TELLING GANTHET HE ISN'T GOING TO FOLLOW HIS LIGHT AGAIN??? Who is Hal talking too for crying out loud?? Spectre?? Superman?? Guy?? No!!! hes talking to Ganthet.... Hal would have been fine to just leave everyone and go straight to Heaven but that was not what was suppose to happen, its not part of Gods plan for Hal to come to Heaven at this time... So Abin then shows up and talks to Hal about Hal overcoming great Fear something he has not done YET!! During this time Ganthets Green ball of light is following Hal and Hal is ignoring it correct?? correct. After a few more seconds Hals father appears and tells him to "Fly Home". It is at that time Hal changes course at the last minute and looks at Ganthets green light and follows it back to Hals body.... That is how it ends with Spectre/Hals relationship.
Also, Hal doesn't hear no more crys for Vengeance because why?? Because he isn't with The Spectre no more... Hal can't even remember much when he was with The Spectre which makes sense, hes back to being a normal/hero human living his life.
About Crisis.. i've read it before but i don't have it. I'll have to get it 🙂. Anyway, while The Spectre grabs the Anti-Monitors hand and holds him back, the Anti-Monitor is beginning to win (wooo) at this time The Spectre is amazed and starts screaming for more power more power. Who would he be asking for more power from??? The Hero's?? I doubt that, the Hero's was already helping, he was probably asking The Logos(The Word) for more power. after a few moments because of the amount of power that is being given to him to fight the Anti-Monitor he starts screaming in pain and he sees worlds and dimensions that he never thought possible. After this everything explodes and the universe turns to blinding white light and everything is recreated as the 5 earths are now 1 and 1 Universe. Did The Spectre really win?? nobody really knows but we do know he was in a coma and still had power in him that the Hero's was using (might be wrong haven't read crisis lately). My best guess is that he did beat the Anti-Monitor when it really mattered, and he did recreate the DC Universe it just took so much out of him fighting the Anti-Monitor and remaking the universe and having that much power. if he didn't beat him at that point the DC Universe would be destroyed (As long as thats what The Presence would want of course).
Well enough for tonight...
Originally posted by kevdudeHal is not dismissing Ganthet's request to follow his light. I wish I had the comic and the scanner handy. The comment of, "No... not again..." is a protest of him being pulled away into heaven against his will. He wants to finish the fight, he knows Ganthet and the heroes are in a big pile of doo-doo having just watched Ganthet get infected, since he is the only one who knows how to really fight Parallax.
Hal never told Ganthet he would never follow his light again??? 😑 WHAT??? Are you reading that at all ????? Ganthet says while he is being infected by Parallax "Hal Jordan... Follow My Light...." what does Hal say to Ganthet???? "Not Again... I Won't".... HOW IN THE WORLD DO U NOT THINK THATS HAL NOT TELLING GANTHET HE ISN'T GOING TO FOLLOW HIS LIGHT AGAIN??? Who is Hal talking too for crying out loud?? Spectre?? Superman?? Guy?? No!!! hes talking to Ganthet.... Hal would have been fine to just leave everyone and go straight to Heaven but that was not what was suppose to happen, its not part of Gods plan for Hal to come to Heaven at this time... So Abin then shows up and talks to Hal about Hal overcoming great Fear something he has not done YET!! During this time Ganthets Green ball of light is following Hal and Hal is ignoring it correct?? correct. After a few more seconds Hals father appears and tells him to "Fly Home". It is at that time Hal changes course at the last minute and looks at Ganthets green light and follows it back to Hals body.... That is how it ends with Spectre/Hals relationship.Also, Hal doesn't hear no more crys for Vengeance because why?? Because he isn't with The Spectre no more... Hal can't even remember much when he was with The Spectre which makes sense, hes back to being a normal/hero human living his life.
He's saying, "No... not again..." because he doesn't want to get pulled into Heaven like he did the first time he died. You could say that this is my interpretation, but theres evidence for it. You see Hal reaching towards Ganthet as he is saying this. He's looking for a tether and resisting the pull. Why would he reach towards him if he's refusing Ganthet's request? And most importantly, we both recognize that Hal does end up following Ganthet's ball of light. That ball of light veers him away from Heaven's path of light and towards his body, since Ganthet is one of the few people who actually knows where Hal's body is. So I think my interpretation of Hal's comment is very consistent with the end result we both recognize, he ends up doing what Ganthet asks. For Hal to watch his ultimate enemy Parallax take control of Ganthet, reach out to Ganthet and then essentially say to him, "Piss off. I don't take orders from you anymore..." and then to change his mind and decide to follow his ball of light... is reallly stretching it. I don't think that's the appropriate interpretation anyway you cut it. Besides, he never shows contempt for Ganthet in the conclusion nor in the ongoing series.
Your interpretation of Abin's famous words to Hal as being evidence that Hal did not overcome his greatest fear to loosen Parallax's grip on his own soul is stretching it as well. Parallax hasn't been beaten yet, the job isn't finished. So of course Abin's comment is true, but that doesn't necessarily mean Hal hasn't figured out how to fight Parallax by that time. I want you to re-read Hal's conversation with Kyle, Guy and Stewart right before they fly off to confront Ganthellax together. He talks about knowing your greatest fear, and moving past it and Parallax won't affect you, as if he had already used this knowledge against Parallax before. He is confident that this will work. So if he never attempted it (according to you), why would he know that this will work and protect the GL's? Why would he suddenly just think about his greatest fear of watching his dad die out of the blue like that? It is more obvious to conclude that Hal used this method against Parallax before in loosening his grip on his soul, and was advising the other GL's with this experience.
You mention that the cries of vengeance that are absent from Hal's soul after he is seperated are a result of his seperation. Absolutely correct. You also use this to support your contention that perhaps this is not evidence that Hal ever dismissed these cries for vengeance as I have alleged. However, even before they were separated, haven't we seen Hal complaining to Ollie about how he doesn't feel right and that his burning of Black Hand was not him? Haven't we also seen Hal talk to Carol about how his actions as the Spectre was "nonsense?" We also saw Hal literally struggle with Spectre who forced him away when possessed-Stewart attacked the JLA at Ferris Airport. He's been fighting the idea of vengeance and his role because he knows that 1) It's not him and 2) It's not the solution to Hal's unseen angst (who ended up being Parallax).
This wrestling with Spectre who even admitted that his power was ineffectual against Parallax directly, combined with the knowledge of Parallax's nature of feeding upon fear, combined with his recent epiphanies about his father's death as being his greatest fear (during his conversation with Carol) all led him to move away from the idea of vengeance. Look at the scan below again. Hal asks Spectre to help him at that point, not vice-versa. Hal asks twice and starts swearing at Spectre. Doesn't it appear that he is dismissing Spectre's moan for vengeance and even swearing at him? I interpret this as: "Dammit Spectre! Shut the hell up about vengeance! This isn't about vengeance anymore, I just need help breaking through!" That is my interpretation and is thusly supported by Hal's conversations with Ollie and Carol about how vengeance just doesn't seem right. Ganthet even states that Parallax chose the wrong soul to corrupt, he didn't comment that Spectre was guiding him to win or that Spectre had anything to do with the tearing through Parallax right before the seperation.
You interpret this scene as Spectre compelling Hal to switch to vengeance. When Hal is asking for help and swearing,... what is he doing? According to you, he's stating, "Dammit. I hate vengeance. I don't want any part of it." And then when you see Spectre's request for vengeance one last time, you believe that Hal finally accepts it. Several flaws though. First, Hal, in reply to Spectre's final request for vengeance basically is a reiteration of "Dammit. Help me." That doesn't sound like a passive tone of voice, indicative of Hal's final submission to the power of vengeance that allowed Spectre to free them. It sounds more like what I think, "Shut the hell up about vengeance. This isn't about vengeance anymore. Just help me." The most obvious flaw in your theory is that, if Hal does not switch to vengeance until that one final moment in reply to Spectre's last call... just how exactly is Hal breaking free from Parallax? He doesn't switch to vengeance until the end... so how's he ripping Parallax apart? Isn't it easier to assume that Hal is doing it of his own power by making fear ineffectual against him? Because this is certainly supported by his conversations and flashbacks and even after-the-fact conversations. Hell... its the ultimate theme of the story. Another flaw in your version of that event is Hal never says anything good about vengeance throughout the entire storyline. Suddenly he has an epiphany after struggling with Spectre for so long and that was the ultimate resolution that freed Hal? And yet, Hal never once thinks, "I see now. Vengeance is the only way." He never speaks these words of advice to the other GL's as the base for resisting parallax's power either. There is simply NO evidence other than your direct interpretation that Hal ever switched to vengeance. But he sure repeats the thought of "Embracing your greatest fear so that fear has no hold on you" a whole lot.