Top 10 Jedi Duelists of the PT Era

Originally posted by Lightsnake
QUOTE=10993737]Originally posted by Taven

So you're agreeing with the assertion that Dooku's training was completely separate from their seven form programming? Nice, it's rare we see a concession from you Lightsnake.

Strange. Dooku refers to his training as complete. Why would he send him in to face the Jedi if he only knew Makashi now?Why does Grievous believe Dooku had trained him well if he'd only learned a single saber technique? Why, before Grievous is even unleashed, does Dooku criticize him on using forms other than Makashi in the flashbacks?

Proof time! Show some evidence.

Read 'em both. Mace says Grievous can analyze styles and he's right.
Problem being? In LOTf, he uses Juyo against Mace. And indicates he'd been fully trained in all the saber forms before he'd ever met a Jedi

Occam's Razor, kiddo. What's more likely: the legendary saber instructor Dooku knew other forms and preferred Makashi or that he'd unleash a half-cocked Grievous whose training wasn't complete whatsoever?

And so Grievous trained the magnaguards. As they'd been programmed in all the forms.
Way to keep ignoring this

Negative proof, logical fallacy.
No, Nebaris, you're making the claim. SHOW ME A SOURCE. Something, ANYTHING indicating Makashi is Dooku's only form.

Well, have any proof he had any other masters? Strangely, Grievous's POV indicates nothing of the sort

Prove it.

So provide a source. Dooku and Grievous have plenty of POV scenes in ROTS and LoE together. Why does your supposition mysteriously never feature?

And you are failing to back it up when pressed.

A 'technical perspective?' So he channels his inner darkness from the Force to a fighting style? No, he uses Juyo. [/B][/QUOTE] Yo LS is he really worth all this shit? 🙁 😠

If dooku didn't train Grievous why would mace reconize some of dooku in the generals style.

Here is the quote from LOE

"Grievous was well trained in the Jedi arts. He could recognize the hand of Dooku in the general's training and technique."

Perhaps, from Dooku's perspective, Makashi was all he truly ever needed to become the Jedi killer that he did. And don't ask me to prove that, the BoP's nowhere near to being on me.

No, all you've offered are ridiculous Burden of proof fallacies.

While real life training would act as complementary to their programming, it's hardly necessary. They're droids; you program the knowledge into their brain, and they're going to possess that knowledge. While of course their's room for their application of the knowledge to be sharpened, they don't need to have been additionally trained in all of the forms to be able to replicate them.

It makes a reference to "Dooku's coaching," which was most likely done indirectly through Grievous, and presumably consisted of the form of Makashi. And the reference is made, most likely to illustrate that the droids programming had been complemented to a degree with real life application of the forms.

That doesn't mean that the entirety of their programming would have been complemented in such a way; as it stands, all evidence points to Dooku's training being completely limited to Makashi, and if that were the case, either he or Grievous would have supplemented the Magnagaurds programming with real life training of Makashi alone. Obviously, it adds to how formidable they would have been, which is why the reference is made.

Already responded to this nonsense.

1. Burden of proof fallacy. That his computers would have been in a position to analyse combat techniques to any extent would serve as enough evidence that Grievous wouldn't have to have learnt everything he knew from a living instructor. I don't need to substantiate their effectiveness.

But he didn't know Vaapad--the technique of dark flirtation in which Mace excelled.

And it's noted that when Grievous even tries to copy Mace's stance, Mace notes the result is NOT Vaapad.

Burden of proof/absence of proof fallacy.

1. BoP fallacy. That he was in a position to, alone, would make it clear that he doesn't have to have been taught everything he knew by an actual master.

2. I believe Galen provided a scan where it was directly stated to be in the "hundreds."

3. Given the sheer volume of Jedi he killed, it wouldn't be unreasonable to conclude that he had been able to absorb large amounts of knowledge on their styles; at least to the point where he can replicate them to a degree. Nobody ever claimed he had complete knowledge of them,

Huh.

4. He was already able to absorb the knowledge of the completed version of Juyo: Vaapad, in a seemingly sizable battle with Mace Windu, to the point where he was capable of replicating it in combat against Mace Windu in moments. Clearly he possesses enough knowledge of the form to be able to replicate it with proficiency.

This has absolutely no relevance to what I was saying. I'm going to allow you another attempt, under the condition that you do it with haste.

Seriously now Lightsnake, for someone so inclined to default on Ad Hominem, you really and truly do suck at it. These translation jokes weren't funny to begin with, and the same's the case after 500 uses.

Yes, there is. Your first dishonest claim was that the Wookiepedia entry was a word for word quote.

Your second was your misrepresentation of a quote that's here, for everyone to see. Really, as far as lying goes, you're especially blatant and stupid about it.

LOL. Please don't tell me you've been thinking of these little "debates" between us as wins, Lightsnake. By all means, you do that, I'm sure you're going to go out and celebrate, though it's pretty clear why exactly I've not been replying: you never shut up.

Really, you draw out every debate, likely for the sole sake of spending as much time with me as you can, and you never stop replying.

Even here, you're literally arguing the worst case you possibly could with your interpretation of this quote, and you just won't stop talking. It gets boring.

And yeah, please reserve the profanity for your sunday brunches with Daniel Wallace, because nobody wants to hear that sh1t. [/B]

Galan posted the pic from the comic(no clue which one) of the jedi stating Grievous killed "hundreds" of jedi in this thread

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=490380&pagenumber=2

Originally posted by Taven
His preference for one form would have no bearing on what he's in a position to teach, Sidi-Boy.

That's correct.

Originally posted by Taven
Again, Mace Windu acknowledges him as solely being in a position to teach Makashi. Ignoring the fact that Dooku was one of the more documented Jedi of his time, Mace Windu was a personal friend of his and consistent sparring partner. That he only acknowledges Dooku as being in a position to teach Makashi would serve as indication that - publicly - Makashi was the only form he was proficient with. So, unless he had been learning the other forms under a lightsaber master within the Order in secret, or during the ten years that followed his departure from the Order, after devoting about 60 years to a single form, Makashi is the only form he'll be able to use with proficiency. What's so hard to understand about that?

Well, I believe Lightsnake destroyed that belief of "Dooku only knows one form", so I don't think I need to respond to this. If you are a 'legendary lightsaber instructor', evidently, you need to know more than one form. And the form least practical at the time, mind you.

Originally posted by Taven
Well, I believe that he wasn't, not that it matters.

Not that it does.

Originally posted by Taven
Did you not understand the point about natural talent compensating for a lack of learning time? Again, that the Order was full of dedicated lightsaber instructors and aged Jedi (and given that the numbers went into the thousands, it would be absurd to assume that there weren't Jedi that possessed both attributes) should indicate that having possessed a relatively large learning time and being a dedicated lightsaber master, alone, doesn't necessarily make you stand out as one of the very best among thousands. Until Dooku's mastery of the lightsaber can be properly defined like those I mentioned, there's simply no logical basis in placing him on the list.

So, you claim that Dooku's age doesn't matter matter because others have more "Natural talent"? Hahaha.

First off, you have the fact that Dooku was referred to as the 'Temple's greatest student'- a temple where he is not particularly old or given unique training. Therefore, unless you think that everyone was a weakling in that temple, you could see how Dooku clearly has above average potential.

Even in your own argument- in a point I disagree with- you said that Qui-Gon offering extreme praise over Dooku's skills is nothing but an indication of Dooku's natural talent- if he is a natural in fencing, obviously, it would be far easier to learn this form.

Couple it with Dooku's old age, love of saber practice/dueling, and you see what he is lauded as being so technically skilled.

Originally posted by Taven
Irrelevant Misdirection.

Sure. Only that power in the force is known to help you become stronger faster than others.

Originally posted by Taven
Well, actually, the past experiences and the knowledge of a Jedi potentially turning to the dark side, alone, would generally necessitate that the Order be well equipped to deal with one another. Dueling techniques were still practised after all, and Makashi was still taught, if underutilised.

Makashi was still taught? Honestly, can you prove that Makashi was a mainstream form taught to every willing youngling? It's impractical, it's almost useless in that era. There is no reason why people would go about teaching it- it would seem to me like Dooku had to... well, ask for special training in order to master it. It was certainly not a form taught to the masses.

Originally posted by Taven
You never admire the elegance in something for its practicality, SidyB. Dooku was a man of class, he viewed the art of saber combat as an artform in itself, and appeared to have had a preference for wielding the most elegant and graceful of all the forms. At least, as much is stated in numerous sources. Not that I was truly making a point out of that, just pointing out that your assertion that Dooku is a competitive guy based on his form selection remains completely unfounded. Not to mention, how would that matter in this discussion anyway? We've already established that he was dedicated to his lightsaber studies, and as far as competition went, he faced little with the most underused form of the time.

Really. Dooku may be an arrogant, aristocratic man with a love for elegance, but he's not stupid. Mastering the least useful form is not going for a promising Jedi; it's almost worthless compared to a form such as Soresu, except for in a lightsaber duel. And, therefore, it seems plausible that Dooku did not choose Makashi not only because of its elegance, but because of his love for lightsaber dueling.

In addition, as you say, viewing lightsaber dueling as an artform- something Dooku did- would only inspire him to increase his proficiency in dueling and, in turn, his technical skill.

Originally posted by Taven
Which speaks for little given how underutilised the form had become. By Dooku's old age, he remained the only living master of the form. Clearly, only a handful of Jedi set out to master it.

Prove that he was the only living master. I'm not saying you can't, but please do.

You're right that it's an underutilized form- however, it still speaks for Dooku when he becomes the unparalleled master of the form ideal for dueling.

Originally posted by Taven
Entirely subjective, don't state it as a fact. Soresu, being the least impulsive and kinetic of all the forms, relying on conserving your energy by tiring out your opponent, was the least physically demanding of all the forms, which would lead most to the conclusion that it was the technically most demanding.

So, Soresu being the least physically demanding = requiring the most technical skill? WTF?

No kiddin'. All forms require some level of technical skill, but as Dooku summed it up to Grievous, "Finesse. Artfulness. Economy". Y'see, all of these traits require technical skill; relying on them in combat, almost purely (from what we saw) requires immense technical skill.

Originally posted by Taven
Firstly, pay attention. We're referring to the quote where Yoda labels Dooku the greatest living student of the temple.

Let's get to Yoda's actual quote, now, shall we?

"The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force? Best of all, Dooku would be! Our greatest student! Our greatest failure."

Strongest, wisest, and most learn in the forced. Note strongest; now, stronger refers purely to a Jedi in a combat category, and Dooku's 'strength' in combat comes both off of his prodigious force skills, but also off his lightsaber skills- well, even more so his lightsaber skills.

Originally posted by Taven
Secondly, you're assuming that there are only two things that make up how "great" a Jedi is: force prowess and lightsaber ability, when Yoda lists "most learned in the ways of the Force" and "wisest" (among with "strongest"😉 as the qualifiers in his statement. Really, the idea that "greatness as a Jedi" = combat prowess is ridiculous in itself, given that's rarely what greatness would measure when it comes to passive, ambassadorial agents of peace.

Strength of a Jedi = Combat prowess. Yeah.

Originally posted by Taven
Thirdly, you're relying on an appeal to ridicule, and not substantiate the idea behind Dooku's lightsaber prowess eclipsing his Force ability. And please explain what you mean by "even me?" It's not like you can bring up how I "hate everything PT" in a PT exclusive thread.

'Even you'? Because, let's face it, Neb. You DO hate the PT. You can't deny it; we all know you evidently hate everything PT and post-PT. Seriously, when did you ever say that a notable 'modern' combatant is stronger than a notable 'old' combatant?

Originally posted by Taven
Unproven assumption.

The most graceful, artful, specialist, and economical lightsaber form is not the most technically demanding... how?

Originally posted by Taven
Wrong on the first count, right on the second. Not that it matters, given that natural talent can compensate for a lack of learning time.

Prove that any of the combatants you listed- except for Anakin, of course- have greater natural talent than Dooku? As the temple's 'strongest' and 'greatest' student, he evidently has a load of raw power and potential, if not Yoda, Sidious, or Anakin-class.

Originally posted by Taven
Again, Irrelevant Misdirection.

He is powerful in the force? Check. He is a prodigious student? Check. While I can concede to the former being less important, the latter is. Even if we go by your logic and say that Qui-Gon's praise of him is only from his natural talent and affinity, it displays his extreme affinity for lightsaber combat- or, more specifically, fencing. Which would help improve his technical skill.

Originally posted by Taven
Right. Which is why he uses the Force in conjunction with his saber abilities in a number of his fights (with Sora Bulq, Assaj Ventress, Anakin and Obi-Wan off the top of my head, and likely many more), starts a number of them with his Force powers alone (Yoda, Anakin and Obi-Wan, Quinlan Vos), and relies on his Force powers when in combat against non Force Sensitive such as the Kiffar guards during his attack on the Kiffar leader. Not to mention, when a Jedi goes into saber combat, they'll always be using the Force to aid them, whether it be physically (speed, strength) or mentally (reaction timing).

Dooku is rarely seen to use the force in duels nearly as much as Anakin, Mace, or Yoda; sure, he uses it to a basic level, but he seemingly doesn't use it to incredible extents. Only enough to compensate for old age.

He uses force attacks in combat- but he doesn't use the force to empower himself as much as most others. Why? A lack of capacity? Hardly. He's a very potent force user, and a masterful one too. It seems to be out of choice, preferring to use classic technical ability and finesse over speed and strength.

Originally posted by Taven
Err... what? Where are all these wild claims coming from? Aside from such matches not being elaborated in such a fashion, Jedi have always been known to use the Force to aid themselves physically and mentally in combat. The idea that Dooku was somehow an exception to the rule bears the burden of proof.

I didn't say he completely doesn't use the force, but it's very low on dosage. He is rarely described as moving at blinding speeds (Yoda, Sidious, Mace) or attacking with overwhelming strength (Anakin). Clearly he relies more on technical skill than the average force user.

Originally posted by Taven
Sure, but to Yoda or Sidious speeds? He was weaker in the Force than the both of them, so unless he was somehow unnaturally talented in being able to physically affect his body with the Force, he's not capable of reaching their peak speeds.

Of course he's not Yoda or Sidious class- but Mace, who is, at best, Dooku's equal in force prowess and certainly not his equal in finesse, has displayed speeds well beyond the Count's. Why? I've already explained.

I gotta go for now, so I'll deal with the rest later. Please don't post a rebuttal 'till I reply to the second half.

Don't bother. His hypocrisy, which I addressed and he never responded to, is overwhelming.

Originally posted by Faunus
Yes, by Obi-Wan. The narrator only gives such praise to Kolar and Windu.

That I used the word "renowned" would imply to most that I was aware of as much.

It's ironic that you consider Obi-Wan Dooku's technical superior for mastering Soresu to its highest level when the Count mastered Makashi- by all accounts a more complex and multifaceted combat form - to a higher degree than anyone else in the Order,

1. Not that what you've presented was my actual argument (for one I would never blindly claim that Obi-Wan mastered Soresu to its highest level), if Obi-Wan's mastery of Soresu was to its absolute apex, than that in itself would speak for far more than Dooku mastering his form to a higher degree than anyone else in the Order (especially given the lack of practise for the form; that Dooku mastered Makashi to a greater degree than anyone else in the Order loses its value when you consider how few utilised it), given that piece of knowledge alone wouldn't indicate that he'd mastered it to its absolute highest level, immediately putting him on a lower level based on existing evidence.

2. By all accounts a more complex and multifaceted form? Seriously begs for proof. They were both pretty one-dimensional forms.

3. My actual argument was regarding the level of mastery Obi-Wan's displays in his duel against Grievous, being capable of blocking sixteen strikes a second -- all coming from different angles at different speeds and intensities -- relying purely on positioning and the angling of his blade. If his defence can stand up to that, relying not on speed or strength, but the pure technical traits of the form, his mastery of it was clearly incredible. Dooku, as far as I'm aware, hasn't yet displayed such ability.

knew every fault and flaw of Ataru thanks to his training under Yoda and his tutoring of Qui-Gon (two of the most prominent users of the style),

Firstly, funny how you jump on a statement I made to point out how it wasn't made by the omniscient narrator (even though I acknowledged as much as I made it), and yet here you are labelling what Dooku claims as gospel.

Secondly, since when would his adaption to a single form of combat have any real meaning in a discussion like this? These are relative lists; you're rating their level of ability in comparison to any and every kind of individual. His knowledge of Ataru and his defencive application of it only applies to an individual utilising that form: a very limited selection. On a list that takes into account all variables, abilities specific to a single variable are worthless to bring up. Not to mention, Obi-Wan (and this is actually stated by the omniscient narrator) knew all there was to Anakin's high mastery of Djem So, and how to counter it as well. As far as their very specific and limited ability to defend against miscellaneous forms go, they appear to be on par, and even that's if we fully trust Dooku's words on the matter.

and actively taught Grievous the seven lightsaber forms. LoE makes mention of this,

Refer to my argument with Lightsnake, it makes no such mention.

as does RotS:

"I've been trained in your Jedi arts by Count Dooku." -- Grievous

How exactly does this make mention of Dooku teaching Grievous all seven? Training in the Jedi arts =/= training in all seven lightsaber forms.

Not to mention that the feat you mentioned was regularly replicated by Dooku in their sparring sessions.

Aside from the fact that sparring sessions =/= real life battles to the death (it's doubtful Grievous would have ever chosen to generate his peak speeds in a sparring match), the focus of my point was the technical ability Obi-Wan displayed during his battle against Grievous, not the act of defending against the onslaught itself. He's described as defending against it primarily through his ability to position himself and angle his blade, defending against Grievous' attacks by moving his saber to only where it was absolutely necessary to be (and not any further) to defend against them. That he could match Grievous' superhuman speed not through superhuman powers of his own, but through his technically impenetrable defense, speaks volumes for his prowess as a swordsman.

Though, for the record, I will exchange his position for Anakin's based on new evidence that has been brought to attention.

Yeah, Faunus, you're right. But I really can't resist when somebody spews enough bullshit to claim that "Anakin > Dooku". In TECHNICAL SKILL.

Originally posted by Taven
Which is what all evidence points to, and your burden of proof if you wish to claim it.

Lightsnake owned that theory already.

Originally posted by Taven
Irrelevant on his lightsaber technique.

Quite right, but it speaks for his overall ability as a Jedi/Sith (labelled one of the greatest ever by the RotS novel).

Originally posted by Taven
Unsupported; I don't recall any source commenting on his learning potential.

The 'Temple's Greatest Student' (STRONGEST, too)- when not having any sort of age advantage over the other 'students'- would mean that Dooku's learning and training potential as far above average.

Oh, and he was also seen as 'the greatest failure'; why, you would ask? Probably because he had the most potential out of the many defecting Dark Jedi. Sora Bulq and Depa Billaba among them.

Originally posted by Taven
In an Order full of numerous races with enhanced life spans (a setting where humans in fact also possess as much, and where "80" won't be relatively as high), and where the Force can slow down a Jedi's aging, it'd be ridiculous to claim that Dooku possessed an anomalous length of time to train in lightsaber combat, and that due to that (and other as insignificant points) he's somehow going to stand out amongst the ten very best in an Order of thousands.

'We argue virtue of what we know.'

Now, that's your statement. Dooku not only has incredible learning potential (as the Yoda statement proves, and the Qui-Gon statement, if we are to go by your logic, proves as well), he is also older than any of the people you listed- FAR older- and I don't recall any of them displaying particularly superior learning potential in saber combat in comparison to him. Ergo? Dooku has more time and just as much natural talent to train his saber skills, and therefore is logically a more proficient technical user of saber combat than they are.

Originally posted by Taven
His "unequaled" status loses its value when you consider how underused the form was.

And? I already proved that it's the form that requires the most finesse, grace, and, in turn, technical skill. Being the unparalleled, complete master of it would put his technical skill at "DA UBERZ" level.

Originally posted by Taven
Which can likely be said for any Jedi Guardian (the lightsaber dueling part; the elegance is irrelevant), one of the more prominent classes in an Order of thousands. Even when combined with your other points (his age, Makashi being supposedly the best, technically), this holds no value with the scope we're dealing in this discussion.

I know. But now, name a prominent Jedi saber master who is older than Dooku, has just as much love for saber practice, an obsession with grace, finesse, skill, and class, and also mastered his form of choice to an extent similar to Dooku.

... you can't, can you?

Originally posted by Taven
Enough to make him stand out as one of the ten greatest technical swordsman in an Order of thousands, among or over beings who's mastery has been far better defined? You haven't come close to proving such a claim.

Dooku is possibly the most refined swordsman- certainly in his form of choice- in history. He is more refined, more skilled, better practiced, and has just as much natural talent as anyone you listed- he also has incredible dueling experience.

Yeah, he's that good.

Originally posted by Taven
Again, age is not the be all end all. Given how Kas'im mastered all seven forms in under ten years for all three primary form of lightsaber combat, his learning potential was clearly incredible. He then spent decades (far longer than it originally took him to learn them) perfecting all of them. Not to mention, my point was to illustrate how encompassing these forms were. I wasn't comparing Kas'im to Dooku (not a good one for the Makashi master).

You're right, age isn't everything. But Dooku has raw power, learning potential, and prodigious skill/natural talent to go along with his age; while his mastery of the saber is nowhere near as broad as Kas'im's, his mastery of dueling is undoubtedly superior.

Originally posted by Taven
Irrelevant, not to mention wrong. What has Dooku ever displayed that compares to defending against Force attacks that possess the force to tear through temples?

Tooling Ventress by lifting his finger, pushing back/lifting up/disarm Quinlan simultaneously, owning Bulq with lightning- I could go on and on. The temple was old, and the force attack was relatively indirect, uncontrolled, and born of anger. Dooku is certainly a greater force user than Kas'im. Kas'im didn't display any where near his offensive mastery of the force or Dooku's refinement.

Originally posted by Taven
Arguable, not that I was attempting to do so (argue the point).

Alright.

Originally posted by Taven
That's exactly what I'm doing. His skill stood out as the best amongst twenty generations of students, by the guy who trained them all. When has Dooku's skill in itself ever been held in such high regard?

Being called one of the greatest Jedi in history (also the temple's STRONGEST student), when his combat prowess was born out of his lightsaber mastery? Strength = combat prowess, for a combat-oriented Jedi/Sith.

Originally posted by Taven
So praise = admission of inferiority? Nice to know. I guess, given that Qui-Gon was a master swordsman by anyone's standards, he's therefore #1 himself.

Yeah, sorry about that.

Originally posted by Taven
I've responded to all of this. It's all either irrelevant, insignificant, unsupported, or illogical.

And I have done the same to you, and proven my points. Again.

Originally posted by Taven
Depends with the scale we're dealing with. It certainly doesn't compare to the praise Qui-Gon receives in relation to twenty generations of Jedi students, nor does it make him stand out amongst ten out of an Order of thousands.

Yeah, sure. Only that Dooku is older, displayed more natural talent, is called a legendary duelist (on the grand scale of things), and led Yoda to believe that only he and Mace would be a match for Dooku in lightsaber combat? And both use the force far more heavily than Dooku while lightsaber dueling.

Originally posted by Taven
Already responded to this.

Same.

Originally posted by Taven
I'm ridiculous? Sidi-Boy, I've tried to be polite to you and stuff, and I think because of that you don't quite realise just how stupid and poorly placed your points have been. I'm sorry, but until Dooku's lightsaber mastery can be defined as even the same league as some of these guys, there's no logical basis in claiming that he holds the position you give him.

I could say the same to you. C'mon, Nebaris. We both know you're not a moron, so why do you bother making those arguments? Do you just disagree with everyone for the sake of standing out?

Originally posted by Taven
No, your points have involved a mixture of illogical, insignificant, irrelevant and unsupported. You haven't established anything, other than that Dooku was pretty good when dealing with a scale infinitely smaller than the one we're dealing with.

Ha. Ha. Ha.

I've already demonstrated that Dooku's technical skill is teh uberz- he has natural talent (a LOAD of it), a passion for saber combat- well, saber skill, dueling, and elegance is more like it- unrivaled among those people you listed- incredible age, more than anyone significant we know of- and you still consider him only 'pretty good'?

What is this rubbish? All Jedi use the Force to aid them physically and mentally in combat. That you'd assume Dooku wouldn't is too stupid to put into words.

Originally posted by Taven
No, you clearly can't comprehend what Qui-Gon was saying. He was commenting on Dooku's natural partiality for fencing, and that was it. That all those traits were natural to Dooku is a comment on how accustomed to the art he was. It's not a comment on prowess.

So, decide. Either Dooku has no spectacular natural prowess, or he has incredible natural prowess (which is what you're ARGUING Qui-Gon was saying). You've spat out two points that contradict each other. In the same friggin' debate.

Originally posted by Taven
1. If you're going to make a reference to a quote, refer to it as it is, not mixed together with your miscomprehensions.

2. Qui-Gon was simply listing the traits that make up a fencer, and describing how partial Dooku was to them. He wasn't making a comment on how good Dooku was at it.

So. Is Dooku an old wacko with no natural talent, or a guy with extreme natural talent and affinity for fencing? Pick.

Originally posted by Taven
Dedication and training time are not the big be all end all. Until Dooku's mastery can be better elaborated on, his skills will forever remain average among people like Kas'im and the Jedi on my list.

Yeah, sure. His mastery of his one form is superior to Kas'im, Mace, Bulq, Depa, etc. He is more refined and more skilled than any of them- although I'm sure that Mace will defeat him in a saber duel, thanks to Vaapad's nature, Mace's speed, strength, and conditioning. But that's irrelevant.

Originally posted by Taven
1. Don't sell Kas'im's individual mastery of each form short. It took him less than a decade to master them, and he spent More than double that time perfecting them. His mastery of each form, individually, are all very high end.

Not as high-end as Dooku's Makashi.

Originally posted by Taven
2. Dooku's mastery of Makashi was unparalleled within an era where it had almost died out.

True. Still, it doesn't change the other points I've made.

Originally posted by Taven
3. Completeness and versatility are almost always going to have the greater effect. Take Kas'im for instance, there are moves and sequences at his disposal that can potentially prove to be alien to his opponents; if he wants to conserve his energy or gets pushed on the defence, he has the defencive and minimally kinetic Soresu manoeuvres at his disposal; he can go on the attack and rely on the pure speed and movement of Ataru; the strength of Djem So; the precision of Makashi, and in general, he simply has far more options at his disposal. Let's look at Dooku now and his (assumed for the sake of the debate) one form mastery; as high as it could be, there's only ever going to be one element to it, it's one dimensional, it lacks in certain areas, possesses its vulnerabilities. Kas'im's an absolute master of all forms and the weapon itself, he possesses the strengths of all the forms at his disposal, and combine them together to eliminate their weaknesses. He's a good ten notches above Dooku.

I wouldn't argue that Kas'im certainly has a more broad mastery of the saber than Dooku; however, Dooku's specialization and refinement in his single form > Kas'im's.

A good ten notches above Dooku? No, but I wouldn't expect that guy who argues that Zannah >>>> Sidious, PoD Bane > DE Sidious, Sion is the strongest Sith/force user EVA, and that Kreia can stomp Yoda to have any objectivity when it comes to comparisons between old-age Sith and new-age Sith.

Originally posted by Taven
Unimaginable? Not really, pretty amazing when dealing with certain numbers or individuals, but with the scale we're dealing with, and up against characters who's mastery has been defined to a far greater degree, all it is is unimaginable lacking.

Nope, and I already displayed why.

Dooku's natural skill and affinity for fencing- he has lots of it.

Time to practice- he has lots of it.

Passion for refinement, elegance, finesse, and skill- he has LOTS of it.

Age- He has lots of it.

Ergo? You can connect 1 and 1.

Quite the paragraphs. An the pathetic babble for the....

*ad-blocks* all of the babbler's posts

Originally posted by Ahsoka Tano
Quite the paragraphs. An the pathetic babble for the....

*ad-blocks* all of the babbler's posts

Amen. lol

Food for thought:

Qui-Gon Jinn regularly stalemated Mace Windu in duels, even in his old age.

Ok Jedi right After seeing some stuff in TFU I'm considering this is Anakin LS so
1: Yoda
2: Mace
3: Qui-Gon(Prime)
4: Obi-Wan
5: Ki-Adi-Mundi
6😛lo Koon
7: Shaak Ti
8:Anakin
9:Quinlan Vos
10:Kit Fisto
I didn't include Luminara cause she was bested by Ventress in the new Clone Wars series

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Ok Jedi right After seeing some stuff in TFU I'm considering this is Anakin LS so
1: Yoda
2: Mace
3: Qui-Gon(Prime)
4: Obi-Wan
5: Ki-Adi-Mundi
6😛lo Koon
7: Shaak Ti
8:Anakin
9:Quinlan Vos
10:Kit Fisto
I didn't include Luminara cause she was bested by Ventress in the new Clone Wars series

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Ok Jedi right After seeing some stuff in TFU I'm considering this is Anakin LS so
1: Yoda
2: Mace
3: Qui-Gon(Prime)
4: Obi-Wan
5: Ki-Adi-Mundi
6😛lo Koon
7: Shaak Ti
8:Anakin
9:Quinlan Vos
10:Kit Fisto
I didn't include Luminara cause she was bested by Ventress in the new Clone Wars series

Originally posted by Bardock42
Did you just forget Anakin?

Exacta! He should be higher that #8, but LS Anakin...I have little regard for considering he does alot of things during the Clone Wars that stray very close to the Dark Side. In almost all of his conflicts they end with him winning by strutting closely with the DS, which brings me back to the conclusion the LS Anakin without ever skirting with the DS is #8
Ex: like in his Dooku battle, he was getting pwnd b4 skirting with the DS.

The PT Jedi relied on forms and the mastery of them way too much.
Kas'im mastered them all and pretty much relied on them and look what happened.

I think Kreia was right in saying it was good to know them, but not rely on them. It makes your movements easier to predict, so skill or mastery matters less against opponents who have fast reflexes and adapt easily.

This is why my opinion of PT jedi is kind of low.

Why is Quinlan Vos #9 on that list? He's probably not even a contender for the top twenty-five or thirty known PT Jedi.