Top 10 Jedi Duelists of the PT Era

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Or maybe he had knowledge of all forms, but preferred to use Makashi?

His preference for one form would have no bearing on what he's in a position to teach, Sidi-Boy.

Again, Mace Windu acknowledges him as solely being in a position to teach Makashi. Ignoring the fact that Dooku was one of the more documented Jedi of his time, Mace Windu was a personal friend of his and consistent sparring partner. That he only acknowledges Dooku as being in a position to teach Makashi would serve as indication that - publicly - Makashi was the only form he was proficient with. So, unless he had been learning the other forms under a lightsaber master within the Order in secret, or during the ten years that followed his departure from the Order, after devoting about 60 years to a single form, Makashi is the only form he'll be able to use with proficiency. What's so hard to understand about that?

You know, that would be the same as Yoda. I believe that in Star Wars Insider 62 listed Yoda as a master of all forms, but one that prefers to use Ataru in order to overcome his natural limitations.

Well, I believe that he wasn't, not that it matters.

Pfft. Every single Jedi/Sith you listed lived a considerably shorter period than Dooku; even Mace, the oldest one of them, was just over 50 at the time of his death. In other words? Dooku had far more time to study lightsaber combat than all of them, had a passionate love for lightsaber combat,

Did you not understand the point about natural talent compensating for a lack of learning time? Again, that the Order was full of dedicated lightsaber instructors and aged Jedi (and given that the numbers went into the thousands, it would be absurd to assume that there weren't Jedi that possessed both attributes) should indicate that having possessed a relatively large learning time and being a dedicated lightsaber master, alone, doesn't necessarily make you stand out as one of the very best among thousands. Until Dooku's mastery of the lightsaber can be properly defined like those I mentioned, there's simply no logical basis in placing him on the list.

and was extremely strong in the force.

Irrelevant Misdirection.

Right. Let's figure it out, shall we?

Let's.

Makashi is known to be extremely weak to blaster-bolt deflection. Guess what? When Dooku was a young Jedi, the Sith were thought to be extinct (Even Sidious was a kid at the time), and therefore, there was no reason for a Jedi to train in a form suited for lightsaber combat.

Well, actually, the past experiences and the knowledge of a Jedi potentially turning to the dark side, alone, would generally necessitate that the Order be well equipped to deal with one another. Dueling techniques were still practised after all, and Makashi was still taught, if underutilised.

It's 'elegance' is completely meaningless and impractical when it comes to fighting droids.

You never admire the elegance in something for its practicality, SidyB. Dooku was a man of class, he viewed the art of saber combat as an artform in itself, and appeared to have had a preference for wielding the most elegant and graceful of all the forms. At least, as much is stated in numerous sources. Not that I was truly making a point out of that, just pointing out that your assertion that Dooku is a competitive guy based on his form selection remains completely unfounded. Not to mention, how would that matter in this discussion anyway? We've already established that he was dedicated to his lightsaber studies, and as far as competition went, he faced little with the most underused form of the time.

But, instead, Dooku became the finest practitioner of the best form to fight in saber combat. According to the official Databank, Dooku is:

"Despite his stubbornness, the Jedi Archives record Dooku as being a formidable Jedi. He settled numerous disputes on scattered worlds and was unequaled in a classical form of lightsaber combat."

Yeah, Dooku was the greatest technical user of his form of choice.

Which speaks for little given how underutilised the form had become. By Dooku's old age, he remained the only living master of the form. Clearly, only a handful of Jedi set out to master it.

And the form that requires the most grace, percision, and dueling skill. In other words? The form that relies most on technical skill.

Entirely subjective, don't state it as a fact. Soresu, being the least impulsive and kinetic of all the forms, relying on conserving your energy by tiring out your opponent, was the least physically demanding of all the forms, which would lead most to the conclusion that it was the technically most demanding.

So, do you think Dooku qualifies as one of the greatest Jedi/Sith in history because of his prowess in the force? Dooku is a great force user, but I don't think even you will argue that he is a greater lightsaber combatant than he is a force user.

Firstly, pay attention. We're referring to the quote where Yoda labels Dooku the greatest living student of the temple.

Secondly, you're assuming that there are only two things that make up how "great" a Jedi is: force prowess and lightsaber ability, when Yoda lists "most learned in the ways of the Force" and "wisest" (among with "strongest"😉 as the qualifiers in his statement. Really, the idea that "greatness as a Jedi" = combat prowess is ridiculous in itself, given that's rarely what greatness would measure when it comes to passive, ambassadorial agents of peace.

Thirdly, you're relying on an appeal to ridicule, and not substantiate the idea behind Dooku's lightsaber prowess eclipsing his Force ability. And please explain what you mean by "even me?" It's not like you can bring up how I "hate everything PT" in a PT exclusive thread.

Dooku is the greatest user of the form that relies most on technical skill;

Unproven assumption.

he is also the oldest human, older than any one you listed.

Wrong on the first count, right on the second. Not that it matters, given that natural talent can compensate for a lack of learning time.

He is extremely talented in the force, powerful, and prodigious.

Again, Irrelevant Misdirection.

And despite his immense talent in the force, he prefers to use his skill alone in order to defeat his opponents.

Right. Which is why he uses the Force in conjunction with his saber abilities in a number of his fights (with Sora Bulq, Assaj Ventress, Anakin and Obi-Wan off the top of my head, and likely many more), starts a number of them with his Force powers alone (Yoda, Anakin and Obi-Wan, Quinlan Vos), and relies on his Force powers when in combat against non Force Sensitive such as the Kiffar guards during his attack on the Kiffar leader. Not to mention, when a Jedi goes into saber combat, they'll always be using the Force to aid them, whether it be physically (speed, strength) or mentally (reaction timing).

His technical skill has to be incredible if he relies almost alone on it in combat when fighting powerhouses like Mace, wouldn't you agree?

Err... what? Where are all these wild claims coming from? Aside from such matches not being elaborated in such a fashion, Jedi have always been known to use the Force to aid themselves physically and mentally in combat. The idea that Dooku was somehow an exception to the rule bears the burden of proof.

Dooku is an incredible force user. He is also physically fit, like a man half his age; so, he can logically use the force to empower himself to great degrees.

Sure, but to Yoda or Sidious speeds? He was weaker in the Force than the both of them, so unless he was somehow unnaturally talented in being able to physically affect his body with the Force, he's not capable of reaching their peak speeds.

Let's say he mastered nothing else than Makashi, okay?

Which is what all evidence points to, and your burden of proof if you wish to claim it.

Then, let's take into account his incredible force prowess,

Irrelevant on his lightsaber technique.

his prodigy status,

Unsupported; I don't recall any source commenting on his learning potential.

his age,

In an Order full of numerous races with enhanced life spans (a setting where humans in fact also possess as much, and where "80" won't be relatively as high), and where the Force can slow down a Jedi's aging, it'd be ridiculous to claim that Dooku possessed an anomalous length of time to train in lightsaber combat, and that due to that (and other as insignificant points) he's somehow going to stand out amongst the ten very best in an Order of thousands.

his 'unequaled' prowess in Makashi,

His "unequaled" status loses its value when you consider how underused the form was.

and his passion for lightsaber dueling and elegance.

Which can likely be said for any Jedi Guardian (the lightsaber dueling part; the elegance is irrelevant), one of the more prominent classes in an Order of thousands. Even when combined with your other points (his age, Makashi being supposedly the best, technically), this holds no value with the scope we're dealing in this discussion.

His mastery of Makashi must be simply incredible.

Enough to make him stand out as one of the ten greatest technical swordsman in an Order of thousands, among or over beings who's mastery has been far better defined? You haven't come close to proving such a claim.

And Kas'im is far younger than Dooku,

Again, age is not the be all end all. Given how Kas'im mastered all seven forms in under ten years for all three primary form of lightsaber combat, his learning potential was clearly incredible. He then spent decades (far longer than it originally took him to learn them) perfecting all of them. Not to mention, my point was to illustrate how encompassing these forms were. I wasn't comparing Kas'im to Dooku (not a good one for the Makashi master).

and displayed far less force power than Dooku did.

Irrelevant, not to mention wrong. What has Dooku ever displayed that compares to defending against Force attacks that possess the force to tear through temples?

Dooku, being older, more powerful in the force, more refined, and more focused in his form of choice should be able to master it to a far greater extent than any of Kas'im's forms.

Arguable, not that I was attempting to do so (argue the point).

Yeah, it does. But I hope you're not arguing that Qui-Gon > Dooku in technical skill, right?

That's exactly what I'm doing. His skill stood out as the best amongst twenty generations of students, by the guy who trained them all. When has Dooku's skill in itself ever been held in such high regard?

Considering how Qui-Gon spoke of Dooku and his prowess with a lightsaber, that seems so unlikely.

So praise = admission of inferiority? Nice to know. I guess, given that Qui-Gon was a master swordsman by anyone's standards, he's therefore #1 himself.

Really? Being the 'unequaled' master of the form that relies most on technical skill for a good portion of his life, relying almost purely on his technical skill in combat, and referred to as a 'legendary duelist' multiple times, a person who trained himself so his technical prowess is enough to make 'leverage, position, advantage' come completely naturally to him?

I've responded to all of this. It's all either irrelevant, insignificant, unsupported, or illogical.

Dooku may only be a master of Makashi, that's true. But if he is, his prowess in it should be unbelievable.

Depends with the scale we're dealing with. It certainly doesn't compare to the praise Qui-Gon receives in relation to twenty generations of Jedi students, nor does it make him stand out amongst ten out of an Order of thousands.

Dooku's saber prowess > force prowess. Seriously, if his force prowess is sufficient to get him on the list of 'greatest Jedi of all time', imagine what his lightsaber prowess should do.

Already responded to this.

You're ridiculous.

I'm ridiculous? Sidi-Boy, I've tried to be polite to you and stuff, and I think because of that you don't quite realise just how stupid and poorly placed your points have been. I'm sorry, but until Dooku's lightsaber mastery can be defined as even the same league as some of these guys, there's no logical basis in claiming that he holds the position you give him.

I've already shown you percisely how his technical skills come into play, and how he should logically be such a great technical swordsman.

No, your points have involved a mixture of illogical, insignificant, irrelevant and unsupported. You haven't established anything, other than that Dooku was pretty good when dealing with a scale infinitely smaller than the one we're dealing with.

Being able to compete with Mace Windu- an incredibly fast and physically strong being (much more than Dooku)- thanks to technical skill alone should be enough for his 'technical skill' to be seen as beyond any person you listed.

What is this rubbish? All Jedi use the Force to aid them physically and mentally in combat. That you'd assume Dooku wouldn't is too stupid to put into words.

Of course!

... not. He described Dooku's fluency, incredible skill, and natural talent in fencing, which requires extreme technical skill.

No, you clearly can't comprehend what Qui-Gon was saying. He was commenting on Dooku's natural partiality for fencing, and that was it. That all those traits were natural to Dooku is a comment on how accustomed to the art he was. It's not a comment on prowess.

Oh, Jesus. Describing how all of the technical aspects required for dueling come so naturally to Dooku due to his incredible amount of training and technical skill is not a comment on his prowess?

1. If you're going to make a reference to a quote, refer to it as it is, not mixed together with your miscomprehensions.

2. Qui-Gon was simply listing the traits that make up a fencer, and describing how partial Dooku was to them. He wasn't making a comment on how good Dooku was at it.

Dooku is a person who loved lightsaber dueling, training, fencing, and in general getting his skills up. He had more time to train than any of the people you listed. Really, that's completely ridiculous.

Dedication and training time are not the big be all end all. Until Dooku's mastery can be better elaborated on, his skills will forever remain average among people like Kas'im and the Jedi on my list.

What is greater? Having a mastery of all forms (Kas'im), or having absolutely unparalleled mastery of one form (Dooku)?

1. Don't sell Kas'im's individual mastery of each form short. It took him less than a decade to master them, and he spent More than double that time perfecting them. His mastery of each form, individually, are all very high end.

2. Dooku's mastery of Makashi was unparalleled within an era where it had almost died out.

3. Completeness and versatility are almost always going to have the greater effect. Take Kas'im for instance, there are moves and sequences at his disposal that can potentially prove to be alien to his opponents; if he wants to conserve his energy or gets pushed on the defence, he has the defencive and minimally kinetic Soresu manoeuvres at his disposal; he can go on the attack and rely on the pure speed and movement of Ataru; the strength of Djem So; the precision of Makashi, and in general, he simply has far more options at his disposal. Let's look at Dooku now and his (assumed for the sake of the debate) one form mastery; as high as it could be, there's only ever going to be one element to it, it's one dimensional, it lacks in certain areas, possesses its vulnerabilities. Kas'im's an absolute master of all forms and the weapon itself, he possesses the strengths of all the forms at his disposal, and combine them together to eliminate their weaknesses. He's a good ten notches above Dooku.

It's up for debate. But Dooku's technical skill in Makashi should be, as I've said more than once, unimaginable.

Unimaginable? Not really, pretty amazing when dealing with certain numbers or individuals, but with the scale we're dealing with, and up against characters who's mastery has been defined to a far greater degree, all it is is unimaginable lacking.

One should simply point out it was DOOKU who taught Grievous all seven forms and then laugh at Nebaris.

End of story, really.

Yeah. that's great, one could properly SOURCE (page number and quote included) where this information comes from, and then, as usual, not elicit even a giggle at anything Lightsnake has to say.

The quote from the movie, that he had been trained in the Jedi arts by Dooku, simply means that he's received some level of training in them. Why the statement was brought up to illustrate that he trained Grievous in all the forms, I still puzzle over.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
One should simply point out it was DOOKU who taught Grievous all seven forms and then laugh at Nebaris.

End of story, really.

Don't you mean Nebar Foxis?

Originally posted by Taven
Yeah. that's great, one could properly SOURCE (page number and quote included) where this information comes from, and then, as usual, not elicit even a giggle at anything Lightsnake has to say.

The quote from the movie, that he had been trained in the Jedi arts by Dooku, simply means that he's received some level of training in them. Why the statement was brought up to illustrate that he trained Grievous in all the forms, I still puzzle over.

Labyrinth of Evil. In fact, I'll save you the trouble and just post from Wookieepedia which is kind enough to cite it:

Taught all seven main forms of lightsaber combat by Dooku, he developed a personalized unorthodox fighting form, involving prolonged lightning-fast flurries and power moves designed to overwhelm his enemies. However, his lack of finesse frustrated Dooku

😆 😆

You know what Lightsnake, I take back what I said; you sir, are hilarious. For a second I actually got worried there until I read the wookiepedia bit.

im the yin to his yang

Amazing. I give him the source, give him the WP entry which actually cites it for the phrase and his only response is that.

Hell, on page 317, it says Dooku taught Grievous the seven forms and in turn Grievous taught his magna-guards.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Amazing. I give him the source, give him the WP entry which actually cites it for the phrase and his only response is that.

Hell, on page 317, it says Dooku taught Grievous the seven forms and in turn Grievous taught his magna-guards.

Making sh1t up again, are we, Lightsnake?

LoE, page 314:

"Dooku had taught Grievous well, and Grievous had taught his elite well. Coupled with Dooku's coaching, their programming in the seven classic forms of lightsaber dueling--in the Jedi arts--made them lethal opponents."

That's all that's said on the matter, and all that's said is that Dooku had taught Grievous well, as had Grievous with the Magnaguards. No mention of him having trained Grievous in all seven forms; it's made explicitly clear actually that the Magnaguards only received such training via their droid programming.

By which Grievous had taught them. As Dooku had taught him.

I'm really loving how your entire argument hinges on Dooku not knowing any other form which should be disproved given he was known as a legendary saber instructor and was Grievous's only known trainer.

No, I think LoE makes my point for me, despite your attempts to weasel out of it.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
By which Grievous had taught them. As Dooku had taught him.

What the hell is wrong with you? Do you not know how to fvcking read?

"Coupled with Dooku's coaching, their programming in the seven classic forms of lightsaber dueling--in the Jedi arts--made them lethal opponents."

Look it up.

I'm really loving how your entire argument hinges on Dooku not knowing any other form

His lack of versatility and completeness is a huge point against him, yes.

which should be disproved given he was known as a legendary saber instructor

Prove up. He was labelled a legendary swordsman, nothing about him being a legendary saber master, which wouldn't make sense given the only form he was publicly proficient in was an underutilised one.

and was Grievous's only known trainer.

The computers linked up to his brain enabled him to copy and replicate the moves of those he faced in combat with perfection. Having slain hundreds of Jedi, he doesn't have to have been personally trained by anyone to possess the lightsaber knowledge he does.

No, I think LoE makes my point for me, despite your attempts to weasel out of it.

Weasel out of it? I quite clearly pointed out how LoE in no way states what you've been claiming, and how it goes out of its way to point out that the Magnaguards for instance, rather than having been properly trained in the seven forms, had been programmed in them.

Originally posted by Taven
What the hell is wrong with you? Do you not know how to fvcking read?

"Coupled with Dooku's coaching, their [b]programming in the seven classic forms of lightsaber dueling--in the Jedi arts--made them lethal opponents."

Look it up.

His lack of versatility and completeness is a huge point against him, yes.

Prove up. He was labelled a legendary swordsman, nothing about him being a legendary saber master, which wouldn't make sense given the only form he was publicly proficient in was an underutilised one.

The computers linked up to his brain enabled him to copy and replicate the moves of those he faced in combat with perfection.

Having slain hundreds of Jedi, he doesn't have to have been personally trained by anyone to possess the lightsaber knowledge he does.

Weasel out of it? I quite clearly pointed out how LoE in no way states what you've been claiming, and how it goes out of its way to point out that the Magnaguards for instance, rather than having been properly trained in the seven forms, had been programmed in them. [/B]

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Just after it states 'as Dooku taught grievous, he had taught his magnaguards.'

And it makes reference to that:

"Coupled with Dooku's coaching, their programming in the seven classic forms of lightsaber dueling--in the Jedi arts--made them lethal opponents."

Dooku's coaching was described as being separate from their programming in all seven forms.

Who programmed then exactly, then?

It was arranged by Dooku, presumably. Though, please tell me what relevance this question actually has?

Your suppositions =/= fact

We argue by virtue of what we know. Until he can be proven to possess proficiency beyond Makashi, by default, he should be considered an incomplete and unversatile lightsaber practitioner.

Vader: The Ultimate Visual guide ring any bells, Nebby?
"A legendary lightsaber instructor, Count Dooku believes that the Republic has grown corrupt, and suspects the Jedi Council is more concerned with politics than justice." page 30,

Well there you go, you're learning how to properly source your quotes!
And yeah, my mistake on that, not like it matters. I know I earlier claimed that it wouldn't make much sense for him to be held in such a light given his limited mastery of the lightsaber (which I still maintain), however from a certain perspective, you could claim that his legendary status stems from how instrumental he might have been in training the younger generation of Jedi in dueling techniques, being the only living Makashi Master of his time, and possessing a natural partiality for it. Either way, substantiate the idea behind Dooku having to have mastered all seven forms (or even just any beyond Makashi) to be held in such a light or drop the point.

Considering he was trained before he ever met a Jedi...

Sure, by Dooku, in Makashi, as I'm well aware and made clear of as much. However, by the time he starts being acknowledged as a master of all forms (or at least proficient in them), he had slain hundreds of Jedi, and been in a position to perfectly analyse their styles. Point being, you were claiming that Dooku had to have trained him in everything he knew considering he was his only known master. Clearly, at the point in time where he was proficient in all forms, as much was not the case, and you have no logical basis in claiming that Dooku trained him in all the said forms.

Oh, proof. Now.

LoE, he fights Mace Windu, and, from a technical perspective, is able to perfectly mimic the form in moments. If he can replicate Vaapad, the most complete and complex of all the forms, then he most certainly can do it to any of the others (Mace Windu theorises as much in the RotS novelisation).

Strange how it outright says Dooku taught him then. And how he was proficient with a saber before he, y'know, ever even met a Jedi...

Again, I'm aware that Dooku did train him to some degree, presumably in Makashi. The point is, by the time he's become proficient in all seven, he doesn't need to have been personally trained in them, considering he's slain about a hundred Jedi by then, and been in a position to analyse their styles.

Pointing out before that that Dooku had taught him and he's passed on the knowledge to them.
What DOES this indicate? You being a dishonest fool?
Well, there's that.

Good God Lightsnake this is simple stuff.

"Dooku's coaching," presumably done indirectly via Grievous, is read as a separate piece of their training from their seven form droid programming.

"Coupled with Dooku's coaching, their programming in the seven classic forms of lightsaber dueling--in the Jedi arts--made them lethal opponents."

1. Dooku to some extent trains Grievous, who in turn - again, to some extent- trains the Magnaguards.

2. Grievous, at some point, gains proficiency in all forms, after having slain hundreds of Jedi in battle, and being in a position to learn their styles.

3. The Magnaguards, on top of their training that originated with Dooku, are programmed with all seven forms of the lightsaber.

That pretty much sums up their entire training relationship right there. Those are the facts, stated as they are, and you'll find that nowhere there can you make a point about Dooku having mastered anything beyond Makashi.

Your entire arguments stems from you misunderstanding (after having lied about) a passage of text, and the fact that Dooku was a legendary lightsaber instructor. As I've already established, neither points come close to proving your case. Try again.

Is that entire spat about the difference between "teaching" and "programming." Anyone else consider that they're interchangeable?

Originally posted by Taven
And it makes reference to that:

"[b]Coupled with Dooku's coaching, their programming in the seven classic forms of lightsaber dueling--in the Jedi arts--made them lethal opponents."

Dooku's coaching was described as being separate from their programming in all seven forms.

It was arranged by Dooku, presumably. Though, please tell me what relevance this question actually has?

We argue by virtue of what we know. Until he can be proven to possess proficiency beyond Makashi, by default, he should be considered an incomplete and unversatile lightsaber practitioner.

Well there you go, you're learning how to properly source your quotes!
And yeah, my mistake on that, not like it matters. I know I earlier claimed that it wouldn't make much sense for him to be held in such a light given his limited mastery of the lightsaber (which I still maintain), however from a certain perspective, you could claim that his legendary status stems from how instrumental he might have been in training the younger generation of Jedi in dueling techniques, being the only living Makashi Master of his time, and possessing a natural partiality for it. Either way, substantiate the idea behind Dooku having to have mastered all seven forms (or even just any beyond Makashi) to be held in such a light or drop the point.

Sure, by Dooku, in Makashi, as I'm well aware and made clear of as much. However, by the time he starts being acknowledged as a master of all forms (or at least proficient in them), he had slain hundreds of Jedi, and been in a position to perfectly analyse their styles.

Point being, you were claiming that Dooku had to have trained him in everything he knew considering he was his only known master. Clearly, at the point in time where he was proficient in all forms, as much was not the case, and you have no logical basis in claiming that Dooku trained him in all the said forms.

LoE, he fights Mace Windu, and, from a technical perspective, is able to perfectly mimic the form in moments. If he can replicate Vaapad, the most complete and complex of all the forms, then he most certainly can do it to any of the others (Mace Windu theorises as much in the RotS novelisation).

Again, I'm aware that Dooku did train him to some degree, presumably in Makashi. The point is, by the time he's become proficient in all seven, he doesn't need to have been personally trained in them, considering he's slain about a hundred Jedi by then, and been in a position to analyse their styles.

Good God Lightsnake this is simple stuff.

"Dooku's coaching," presumably done indirectly via Grievous, is read as a separate piece of their training from their seven form droid programming.

"Coupled with Dooku's coaching, their programming in the seven classic forms of lightsaber dueling--in the Jedi arts--made them lethal opponents."

1. Dooku to some extent trains Grievous, who in turn - again, to some extent- trains the Magnaguards.

2. Grievous, at some point, gains proficiency in all forms, after having slain hundreds of Jedi in battle, and being in a position to learn their styles.

3. The Magnaguards, on top of their training that originated with Dooku, are programmed with all seven forms of the lightsaber.

That pretty much sums up their entire training relationship right there. Those are the facts, stated as they are, and you'll find that nowhere there can you make a point about Dooku having mastered anything beyond Makashi.

Your entire arguments stems from you misunderstanding (after having lied about) a passage of text, and the fact that Dooku was a legendary lightsaber instructor.

As I've already established, neither points come close to proving your case. Try again. [/B]

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yes, becau they're mutually exclusive.

So you're agreeing with the assertion that Dooku's training was completely separate from their seven form programming? Nice, it's rare we see a concession from you Lightsnake.

Why is it referring to Grievous having taughgt/programmed his magnaguards in all seven saber forms just as Dooku had taught him now?[quote]

No, it says that Grievous taught the Magnaguards, just as Dooku had him. It then says coupled with that training, they were progrmammed in all seven forms of lightsaber combat. The passage is right there, misrepresenting it like you're doing is as stupid as it gets.

[quote]Strange. So Grievous taught them what exactly?

Perhaps he supplemented their programming with real life training in what Dooku had already trained him in. That would make the most sense. However, such training is never properly defined, is presumably all that Dooku was publicly acknowledged to be in a position to teach: Makashi. The seven form mastery, however, stems primarily from their droid programming.

Oh, right, you dismiss an ything when it isn't convenient for you

I dismiss anything that has no logical basis. As it stands, their seven from mastery is directly stated down to be a product of their programming. Dooku's coaching (likely real life supplementary training) is directly stated to have been coupled with the programming. What Grievous trained them in is stated to be separate from their programming.

'We argue by virtue of what we know.' Who does it said trained them? Grievous. We can assume any programming was Grievous

Err... their programming would have been downloaded into their droid central processing unit. It's not something you would receive from a saber instructor. You.. do know what programming is, right?

Translation: I HATE THE PT! WAAAAAAH! WAAAAAH!

Wastemanulation: I have nothing cogent with which to argue your points, so I'm going to default to some overly used, extremely lame, boring Ad Hominem.

I see nothing here but absurd attempts to rationalize how you're wrong.

No, I'm pointing out how being a legendary lightsaber instructor alone doesn't necessarily mean that you possess multiple form mastery. Again, he may have been instrumental to training the Order in dueling techniques and such given that he was one of the few, if not the only, living Masters of Makashi.

Saber instructors tend to know more than one form.

I asked you to substantiate, not commit a correlation fallacy. That there were multiple lightsaber instructors in the Order, they wouldn't necessarily have to have mastered multiple forms, as they could have each specialised teaching in their own.

Prove up, Nebby.

Burden of proof fallacy.

Your original claim: Grievous knew all seven forms, and because Dooku was Grievous' only known master, he had to have trained him in all seven forms.

My rebuttal: By the time Grievous possessed such encompassing lightsaber knowledge, he had slain hundreds of Jedi, and been in a position to analyse their styles. Meaning, he doesn't have to have learnt it from Dooku.

Your Burden of proof fallacy: Prove that Grievous got the knowledge from the Jedi he had slain, and not from Grievous.

Grievous is referred to as complete and trained before he ever goes after a Jedi.

If Dooku had trained him fully in Makashi (which I'm fully open to the probability of), then yes, he could be considered complete and trained from one perspective. That being said, that he was labelled in such a way in no way acts as indication that he had been trained in anything other than Makashi before he had been in combat with any Jedi.

There is no source-nothing- indicating Grievous attains his forms by observation.

LoE and RotS novelisation, Lightsnake. Even Gideon for instance, who's rarely if ever on my side in these debates, will be able to back that up (and I say that because he's referenced it in the past).

Grievous says Dooku trained him in the saber and Jedi ways,

Which doesn't mean that all of his knowledge and ability in the lightsaber and Jedi ways were obtained through Dooku. He may have had no other instructor available to him, but he was in a position to learn as much through other means.

LoE states it was Dooku who taught Grievous in the seven forms,

Stop misrepresenting the quote that's right here for everyone to see, Lightsnake. It states that he trained Grievous "well," that's it.

and Dooku, a 'legendary lightsaber instructor' is going to be an extremely able saber combatant and be pretty familiar with numerous forms.

Substantiate this claim. Prove that his legendary lightsaber instructor status wasn't obtained through how instrumental he may have been in training the younger generations in Jedi dueling techniques through his mastery of a form that had almost died out.

The ONLY person Grievous is ever described learning from? the Count.

1. While it's very probably that Dooku was his only master, that that's all that is stated down does not deny that he had training from another master. You're committing an absence of proof fallacy.

2. He had other means to obtain such knowledge, meaning he doesn't have to have been trained in all he knows by a living master.

Suffice to say: bring some evidence or shut the hell up

Burden of proof fallacy. I don't need to prove, undeniably, that Grievous gained all of that knowledge through the computers linked to his brain, and not through Dooku. You made the claim that Dooku had to have trained him in everything he knew, and I'm point out out how that's not necessarily the case.

He does not 'replicate' Vaapad, he uses Juyo. There is a difference.

From a technical perspective (by that I mean ignoring all that superconductive loop rubbish), he does replicate Vaapad, which is essentially an advanced version of Juyo.

And again, Dooku refers to his training as complete before Grieovus is even sent into action.

Perhaps, from Dooku's perspective, Makashi was all he truly ever needed to become the Jedi killer that he did. And don't ask me to prove that, the BoP's nowhere near to being on me.

Proven wrong already

No, all you've offered are ridiculous Burden of proof fallacies.

God, Nebaris, this is simple stuff:
Dooku is referred to as having taught Grievous well. Just as Grievous taught his magnaguards. Simply being programmed doesn't mean they don't have to, you know, hone the skills and train.

While real life training would act as complementary to their programming, it's hardly necessary. They're droids; you program the knowledge into their brain, and they're going to possess that knowledge. While of course their's room for their application of the knowledge to be sharpened, they don't need to have been additionally trained in all of the forms to be able to replicate them.

Why would it make a reference to Dooku there?

It makes a reference to "Dooku's coaching," which was most likely done indirectly through Grievous, and presumably consisted of the form of Makashi. And the reference is made, most likely to illustrate that the droids programming had been complemented to a degree with real life application of the forms. That doesn't mean that the entirety of their programming would have been complemented in such a way; as it stands, all evidence points to Dooku's training being completely limited to Makashi, and if that were the case, either he or Grievous would have supplemented the Magnagaurds programming with real life training of Makashi alone. Obviously, it adds to how formidable they would have been, which is why the reference is made.

Who's the only one who's ever taught Grievous now?

Already responded to this nonsense.

'To some extent?' According to Clone Wars, ROTS and LoE, Dooku is Grievous's only known teacher. In Unknown Soldier, Grievous is described as being completely trained by Dooku before he's let loose on the Jedi.

Read above.

Now, you have to prove:

A. Grievous can do this with any sort of effectiveness

1. Burden of proof fallacy. That his computers would have been in a position to analyse combat techniques to any extent would serve as enough evidence that Grievous wouldn't have to have learnt everything he knew from a living instructor. I don't need to substantiate their effectiveness.

2. That he -- again, from a technical perspective -- manages to replicate Vaapad in moments with perfection (according to both Mace Windu and the Omniscient narrator) would indicate that the computers work with a high level of effectiveness.

B. There is anything stating he did so when I have already dealt with your idiotic point

Burden of proof/absence of proof fallacy.

C. That of the 'hundreds' of Jedi he's killed, he was able to pick up all of the seven forms-yes, let's see one PT Jedi using Juyo.

1. BoP fallacy. That he was in a position to, alone, would make it clear that he doesn't have to have been taught everything he knew by an actual master.

2. I believe Galen provided a scan where it was directly stated to be in the "hundreds."

3. Given the sheer volume of Jedi he killed, it wouldn't be unreasonable to conclude that he had been able to absorb large amounts of knowledge on their styles; at least to the point where he can replicate them to a degree. Nobody ever claimed he had complete knowledge of them, Lightsnake, however, given the sheer scale of Jedi he faced, it wouldn't be absurd to claim that he'd be capable of replicating their application of the form with a high level of ability.

4. He was already able to absorb the knowledge of the completed version of Juyo: Vaapad, in a seemingly sizable battle with Mace Windu, to the point where he was capable of replicating it in combat against Mace Windu in moments. Clearly he possesses enough knowledge of the form to be able to replicate it with proficiency.

Nice to ignore the part about Grievous having been trained by Dooku!

This has absolutely no relevance to what I was saying. I'm going to allow you another attempt, under the condition that you do it with haste.

Except everything else.
Translation: "I DON'T WANT IT TO BE TRUE! IT HURTS MY ARGUMENTS! OMGIWANNA****BANE!"

Seriously now Lightsnake, for someone so inclined to default on Ad Hominem, you really and truly do suck at it. These translation jokes weren't funny to begin with, and the same's the case after 500 uses.

There's no lie, Nebaris.

Yes, there is. Your first dishonest claim was that the Wookiepedia entry was a word for word quote. Your second was your misrepresentation of a quote that's here, for everyone to see. Really, as far as lying goes, you're especially blatant and stupid about it.

The point is there in LoE, you just want it to be a lie since you're a lying little moron fanboy incapable of releasing an argument until beaten, you limp off with your tail between your legs like in the Bane debate just there, or numerous others.

Go back to jerking off to Rule of Two. You've lost

LOL. Please don't tell me you've been thinking of these little "debates" between us as wins, Lightsnake. By all means, you do that, I'm sure you're going to go out and celebrate, though it's pretty clear why exactly I've not been replying: you never shut up. Really, you draw out every debate, likely for the sole sake of spending as much time with me as you can, and you never stop replying. Even here, you're literally arguing the worst case you possibly could with your interpretation of this quote, and you just won't stop talking. It gets boring.

And yeah, please reserve the profanity for your sunday brunches with Daniel Wallace, because nobody wants to hear that sh1t.

QUOTE=10993737]Originally posted by Taven

So you're agreeing with the assertion that Dooku's training was completely separate from their seven form programming? Nice, it's rare we see a concession from you Lightsnake.[/Quote]
You could take it that way, since you're too dishonest to actually see my meaning

Perhaps he supplemented their programming with real life training in what Dooku had already trained him in. That would make the most sense. However, such training is never properly defined, is presumably all that Dooku was publicly acknowledged to be in a position to teach: Makashi. The seven form mastery, however, stems primarily from their droid programming.

I dismiss anything that has no logical basis. As it stands, their seven from mastery is directly stated down to be a product of their programming. Dooku's coaching (likely real life supplementary training) is directly stated to have been coupled with the programming. What Grievous trained them in is stated to be separate from their programming.

Err... their programming would have been downloaded into their droid central processing unit. It's not something you would receive from a saber instructor. You.. do know what programming is, right?

Wastemanulation: I have nothing cogent with which to argue your points, so I'm going to default to some overly used, extremely lame, boring Ad Hominem.

No, I'm pointing out how being a legendary lightsaber instructor alone doesn't necessarily mean that you possess multiple form mastery.

Again, he may have been instrumental to training the Order in dueling techniques and such given that he was one of the few, if not the only, living Masters of Makashi.

I asked you to substantiate, not commit a correlation fallacy. That there were multiple lightsaber instructors in the Order, they wouldn't necessarily have to have mastered multiple forms, as they could have each specialised teaching in their own.

Burden of proof fallacy.

Your original claim: Grievous knew all seven forms, and because Dooku was Grievous' only known master, he had to have trained him in all seven forms.

My rebuttal: By the time Grievous possessed such encompassing lightsaber knowledge, he had slain hundreds of Jedi, and been in a position to analyse their styles. Meaning, he doesn't have to have learnt it from Dooku.

Your Burden of proof fallacy: Prove that Grievous got the knowledge from the Jedi he had slain, and not from Grievous.

If Dooku had trained him fully in Makashi (which I'm fully open to the probability of), then yes, he could be considered complete and trained from one perspective.

That being said, that he was labelled in such a way in no way acts as indication that he had been trained in anything other than Makashi before he had been in combat with any Jedi.

LoE and RotS novelisation, Lightsnake. Even Gideon for instance, who's rarely if ever on my side in these debates, will be able to back that up (and I say that because he's referenced it in the past).

Which doesn't mean that all of his knowledge and ability in the lightsaber and Jedi ways were obtained through Dooku. He may have had no other instructor available to him, but he was in a position to learn as much through other means.

Stop misrepresenting the quote that's right here for everyone to see, Lightsnake. It states that he trained Grievous "well," that's it.

Substantiate this claim. Prove that his legendary lightsaber instructor status wasn't obtained through how instrumental he may have been in training the younger generations in Jedi dueling techniques through his mastery of a form that had almost died out.

1. While it's very probably that Dooku was his only master, that that's all that is stated down does not deny that he had training from another master. You're committing an absence of proof fallacy.

2. He had other means to obtain such knowledge, meaning he doesn't have to have been trained in all he knows by a living master.

Burden of proof fallacy. I don't need to prove, undeniably, that Grievous gained all of that knowledge through the computers linked to his brain, and not through Dooku.

You made the claim that Dooku [b]had to have trained him in everything he knew, and I'm point out out how that's not necessarily the case.

From a technical perspective (by that I mean ignoring all that superconductive loop rubbish), he does replicate Vaapad, which is essentially an advanced version of Juyo.