It's on the INvisible Hand. Now I know jedi sensing tends to reply more on dramatic neccessity than anything, but he walked into a room with two battle droids and wasn't noticed except for the guy looking right at the door (Palpatine). I'm guessing the droids were lubed up and everyone had rubber bottoms on their soles.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
27 years? Are you sure of that? I know I estimated 27, but it was a best-case senario for Dooku. Does anyone else have a better number(as in more likely)?
Mace started using Vaapad at the age of 13 in TPM he's 40 years old = 27 years of Vaapad training. The last fight between him and Dooku happened either directly before TPM or directly after TPM. So the "27 years" are very close to "reality".
I simply don't see a chance that Sidious could have developed greater sword mastery than Mace or Dooku considering the fact that Sidious had a political career running (therefore less time for training) and no real opponents.
I love how everyone credits Sidious's victories to 'surprise' attacks.
Nai, I've reviewed your arguments against Darth Somebody, where you stated that Palpatine defeated the Jedi Masters in his office because he caught them by surprise. This isn't true. Sidious stood up, yanked his saber into his hand, tossed a one-liner, and then leapt over the desk. And then, to top it all off, he didn't even attack them at first. He growled and then darted forward, swinging.
Surprise Attack ? Nope.
Now. Mace and Sidious. After Palpatine killed Kit Fisto, they sparred. Palpatine was on the offensive, and pushed Mace back through the corridor into the main office. This was longer than a minute for the sad few who like to think he was put on his ass. And, Sorgo, I agree that Mace won 'fair-and-square' because Lucas said he was overpowered. But at the same time, I never brought up the validity of the duel. I said that Mace didn't 'easily' put Palpatine on his ass. And not under a minute.
Yoda v. Sidious -
Yoda walks in. He incapacitates the Red Guard, and banters with the Emperor. The Emperor retorts, slowly (!) raises his hands, and then blasts the lightning. Yoda moves to block it with his right hand, but is overpowered and smashed into the wall. I'm sorry to 'burst' your bubble but Yoda was legitimately nailed. He simply (like Palpatine with Mace) got overconfident and suffered for it.
Surprise Attack ? Nope.
Palpatine dodges a pod that Yoda tossed back. He jumps down and lands in a pod far below, and looks around. Yoda flies up, lands on the side, and draws his saber. Palpatine reaches out and BLASTS the saber away. Yoda then proceeds to slowly block the lightning back off.
Surprise Attack ? Nope.
Originally posted by Deus Ex
I'm afraid I agree with Nai on this. He's made some good points.Second, I'd like to point out that Dooku DOES show instances of shielding his presence from others:
- In The Cestus Deception, Assajj Ventress uses a meditation technique that allows her to remain effectively invisible to Obi-Wan in the Force. She learned this from Dooku who had mastered it.
- Dooku meets Sidious on Coruscant, a planet with a jedi temple on it. Neither were sensed. This happens multiple times.
- Dooku walks right up to Jedi all the time and isn't sensed.
Good points. I consent there. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.
a) Sorgo, you 'have no proof' to insinuate that Sidious knew Yoda would have handed his ass to him. In fact, if he truly believed that, he wouldn't have fought at all, and simply tried even harder to escape. That theory is 'sunk'. He wouldn't have drawn sabers and gone to the Arena if he truly believed Yoda would crush him. Especially how Sidious isn't the 'going out fighting' type...
b) Indeed I do. Dooku went all out on Yoda to try and show his superiority. Sidious's main priority was to live. And they both still stalemated. And I could argue that Yoda wasn't trying to kill Dooku, even though we know he was for Sidious.
c) So you're telling me Yoda intentionally stood there and got blasted by Sidious ? Lol. No. Palpatine slowly (!) raised his hands and shot a burst of lightning at him. Yoda 'THEN' made a move to deflect it (maybe you, Sorgo, who likes to speak of Sidious's expressions, ought to look at Yoda's. It's reminiscent of "Oh, hell..."😉 and was overpowered.
Also. Even one lightning burst is more than Dooku ever landed. 🙂
And again. If Yoda wasn't EXPECTING that, going in to fight the Dark Lord to the death, he's more arrogant than I ever realized.
d) I said 'proportionatly' the same size. At the same time, let's say Dooku's debris weighed 700 lbs and Sidious's weighed 500 lbs. He still ripped three pods out. So that's 1500 lbs to Dooku's 700. And the difference is? Dooku struggled.
e) Disarmed him. That was when he jumped to the pod and drew his saber to strike Sidious down, and Sidious reached a hand out, fired a burst, and knocked it away. He removed the weapon from Yoda's grasp. That's called 'disarming'.
And again. Yoda held the lightning at bay. And Sidious, in the end, did look very fearful. But seconds before that, Yoda was in agony trying to hold it off, if you look at HIS expression. Then, Sidious cackles, and it appears to me that motivates Yoda to nail the slimy bastard with his own lightning.
f) Hey, Sorgo... Erm... it was FOR SHOW. Or do you not recall, in ROTJ, when he was only in Vader and Luke's company, he DOESN'T USE THE DAMN CANE (!)
As for the rest.
1. I didn't deny Mace dropped Sidious. Read again.
2. Books are canon when they do not conflict with the movies. Dark Rendezvous doesn't, so it's canon. In Dark Rendezvous, Dooku muses that he fears Sidious. Sorry to burst your bubble.
In conclusion. I'm sorry for the pro-Dooku fans who assume, insinuate, or state Dooku would beat his master, let alone 'slaughter' him. Sidious is made out to be a poorer duelist than he actually is. If he can defend Yoda's attacks, he can sure as hell can for Dooku's. And, again, all evidence points that Sidious is the GREATER Force-user. Is he above and beyond Dooku? No. But neither is Dooku. Dooku has a 50 percent chance at best.
I think the hardest problem for pro-Sidious (To which I give Escape credit for putting up a good debate. We need more of this.) is one of appearances. Sidious is underhanded and never fights fair. The one time it appeared he fought fair (Or both if you consider his battling with Yoda on the pod saber-to-saber) he was put on his ass and owned. Again it's a matter of appearances. Dooku appears very capable. He is not visibly afraid of Yoda and goes right at him. Now, I don't know about you, but not even Anakin considered fighting Yoda and winning. This gives Dooku great dignitas on top of him being able to keep up an incredible speed (In which he handled Yoda much easier than Sidious handled Mace. Note the comparison there. Mace was slow and methodical in his approach while Sidious was enraged and aggressive, and yet Sidious was undone. Dooku's form relies even more on precision, experience, and just happens to be the best lightsaber style for... saber-to-saber.) Now What I'm getting at here is comparing Force powers is inconclusive. Force lightning is inconsistant. Dooku appears well capable of anything else Sidious did via the Force. If it boiled down to that, it could go either way. I think that's a safer bet than saying one or the other.
And back to the saber to saber part- Dooku is simply far more impressive in combat than Sidious is... this includes people with real life sword training (Nai) and people with perhaps less training but still good knowledge of the basics (yours truly). Sidious in a swordfight is outright horrible (Though no where on Qui-Gon's level) and while it was good enough for him via the plotline (Which neccessitated that he live) in a real fight he would get schooled.
Originally posted by Escape81
a) Sorgo, you 'have no proof' to insinuate that Sidious knew Yoda would have handed his ass to him. In fact, if he truly believed that, he wouldn't have fought at all, and simply tried even harder to escape. That theory is 'sunk'. He wouldn't have drawn sabers and gone to the Arena if he truly believed Yoda would crush him. Especially how Sidious isn't the 'going out fighting' type...b) Indeed I do. Dooku went all out on Yoda to try and show his superiority. Sidious's main priority was to live. And they both still stalemated. And I could argue that Yoda wasn't trying to kill Dooku, even though we know he was for Sidious.
c) So you're telling me Yoda intentionally stood there and got blasted by Sidious ? Lol. No. Palpatine slowly (!) raised his hands and shot a burst of lightning at him. Yoda 'THEN' made a move to deflect it (maybe you, Sorgo, who likes to speak of Sidious's expressions, ought to look at Yoda's. It's reminiscent of "Oh, hell..."😉 and was overpowered.
Also. Even one lightning burst is more than Dooku ever landed. 🙂
And again. If Yoda wasn't EXPECTING that, going in to fight the Dark Lord to the death, he's more arrogant than I ever realized.
d) I said 'proportionatly' the same size. At the same time, let's say Dooku's debris weighed 700 lbs and Sidious's weighed 500 lbs. He still ripped three pods out. So that's 1500 lbs to Dooku's 700. And the difference is? Dooku struggled.
e) Disarmed him. That was when he jumped to the pod and drew his saber to strike Sidious down, and Sidious reached a hand out, fired a burst, and knocked it away. He removed the weapon from Yoda's grasp. That's called 'disarming'.
And again. Yoda held the lightning at bay. And Sidious, in the end, did look very fearful. But seconds before that, Yoda was in agony trying to hold it off, if you look at HIS expression. Then, Sidious cackles, and it appears to me that motivates Yoda to nail the slimy bastard with his own lightning.
f) Hey, Sorgo... Erm... it was FOR SHOW. Or do you not recall, in ROTJ, when he was only in Vader and Luke's company, he DOESN'T USE THE DAMN CANE (!)
As for the rest.
1. I didn't deny Mace dropped Sidious. Read again.
2. Books are canon when they do not conflict with the movies. Dark Rendezvous doesn't, so it's canon. In Dark Rendezvous, Dooku muses that he fears Sidious. Sorry to burst your bubble.In conclusion. I'm sorry for the pro-Dooku fans who assume, insinuate, or state Dooku would beat his master, let alone 'slaughter' him. Sidious is made out to be a poorer duelist than he actually is. If he can defend Yoda's attacks, he can sure as hell can for Dooku's. And, again, all evidence points that Sidious is the GREATER Force-user. Is he above and beyond Dooku? No. But neither is Dooku. Dooku has a 50 percent chance at best.
Sidious fried Yoda, and then went to approach him instead of leaving when he had the chance while Yoda was down. Yoda got up (Probably to Sidious' suprise) and Force "nailed" him across the room. Sidious has a nasty habit of underestimating his opponents and was suprised by Yoda's power. He didn't wanna get his ass whooped and have his plans float down the drain, so he tried to Jet.
Originally posted by Escape81
I love how everyone credits Sidious's victories to 'surprise' attacks.Nai, I've reviewed your arguments against Darth Somebody, where you stated that Palpatine defeated the Jedi Masters in his office because he caught them by surprise. This isn't true. Sidious stood up, yanked his saber into his hand, tossed a one-liner, and then leapt over the desk. And then, to top it all off, he didn't even attack them at first. He growled and then darted forward, swinging.
Surprise Attack ? Nope.
Do you think they thought Sidious would jump over to them like he did it and simply attack him ? That was surprising them. So it was an surprise attack and then Sidious took advantage out of the situation that there wasn't much room for fighting.
He killed Agen first (and Kit + Mace couldn't attack him because Agen was in the way). Then Saesee (still being covered by Agen). Then he attacked Mace and Kit and basically outmanouvered them. I don't say that Sidious is a bad fighter or a bad duellist. Don't get me wrong here. But do you think he could have defeated them on an equal ground without taking any advantage out of the situation ?
Now. Mace and Sidious. After Palpatine killed Kit Fisto, they sparred. Palpatine was on the offensive, and pushed Mace back through the corridor into the main office. This was longer than a minute for the sad few who like to think he was put on his ass. And, Sorgo, I agree that Mace won 'fair-and-square' because Lucas said he was overpowered. But at the same time, I never brought up the validity of the duel. I said that Mace didn't 'easily' put Palpatine on his ass. And not under a minute.
The point here is - Mace had the opportunity to kill Sidious two times before they finally finished the duel. He didn't want to kill Sidious and it's harder to disarm somebody than simply kill him because you normally have less opportunities doing the first thing.
So Mace had a tough fight with Sidious but for the reason he wanted to disarm him. The duel could have went faster if Mace wanted to kill Sidious.
Yoda walks in. He incapacitates the Red Guard, and banters with the Emperor. The Emperor retorts, slowly (!) raises his hands, and then blasts the lightning. Yoda moves to block it with his right hand, but is overpowered and smashed into the wall. I'm sorry to 'burst' your bubble but Yoda was legitimately nailed. He simply (like Palpatine with Mace) got overconfident and suffered for it.
I'm pretty sure Yoda didn't think of being attacked like this because we know that he can deflect Sidious lightning. The same way Sidious didn't think about Yoda force pushing him across the room. And if you don't think about something happen and then it happens you are surprised. So it was a "surprise attack".
Palpatine dodges a pod that Yoda tossed back. He jumps down and lands in a pod far below, and looks around. Yoda flies up, lands on the side, and draws his saber. Palpatine reaches out and BLASTS the saber away. Yoda then proceeds to slowly block the lightning back off.
Again: Yoda had no effective defense against that force attack. Or let me say that in another way: He could not hold his lightsaber and at the same time reflect Sidious lightning. Again he didn't think about the possibility that Sidious might instantly attack him with force lightning again. So it was a "surprise attack". Yoda dropped the lightsaber and started deflecting the lightning.
The point is that Sidious, even when he had the advantages on his side, wasn't able to overcome Yoda where Dooku didn't manage to do that on equal ground. And from that point of view we can't say who's the better force user or duellist because the situations in which we have seen them fighting aren't compareable.
The only thing that helps here is logic using evidence and experience. And in this case it's a fact that Dooku:
- had longer times training force use and lightsaber combat compared to Sidious
- was using a superior lightsaber style
- has shown compareable qualities when it comes to the use of Dark Side abilities (force lightning)
- had more "real" action than Sidious. Sidious only trained Maul and Dooku so far while Dooku trained some Padawans (including Qui-Gon), some Dark Jedi (e.g. Asajj Ventress) and other people (Grievous, Durge).
And from this we can conclude that Dooku might be superior to Sidious in terms of lightsaber combat and force use (if only a little bit) while we have no evidence that Sidious is better with a lightsaber than Dooku or a much more powerful force user.
every1 keeps saying dooku can keep up with yoda because of their fight in ep 2, but if u will watch the film again not once did yoda go on the offensive, he just blocked flying rocks, absorbed lightning and bounced around the room, and then Dooku ran off, imagine what would have happend if yoda went on the offensive.
Nothing, considering Dooku can counter objects being thrown at him. Jedi don't use lightning. Yoda wasn't gonna risk throwing his lightsaber at him. It was up to a saber to saber battle, and to his credit Dooku was much more capable at fighting Yoda (and even counterattacked Yoda several times... oh, and that one spin attack of Yoda's which missed. That too.)
If that is the case, Nai, I suppose there is no such thing as legitimate fighting. You claimed that catching someone by surprise is when they do not expect your move. This is true; but this is a natural part of any real fighting. You can't get the advantage when your opponent is expecting your move. If Sidious is a 'dirty' fighter simply by leaping over his desk and wiping out duelists who are inferior to him (save for Mace), then I guess Dooku isn't a fair duelist, nor is Yoda, nor is Mace. There is no such thing as a fair duelist in Star Wars, by your definition.
Originally posted by Escape81
If that is the case, Nai, I suppose there is no such thing as legitimate fighting. You claimed that catching someone by surprise is when they do not expect your move. This is true; but this is a natural part of any real fighting. You can't get the advantage when your opponent is expecting your move. If Sidious is a 'dirty' fighter simply by leaping over his desk and wiping out duelists who are inferior to him (save for Mace), then I guess Dooku isn't a fair duelist, nor is Yoda, nor is Mace. There is no such thing as a fair duelist in Star Wars, by your definition.
If you're going to say it that way, then Sidious was just a cheap bastard all around. He captured his opponents mostly by suprise, which is usually the only reason he won. When he encountered powerful enough opponents that could counter his little suprises, it usually resulted in him getting beaten (Mace) or stalemating (Yoda).
Both of those Jedi countered his little suprises, and he didn't look oh so powerful when they did, either.
Don't get me wrong, I am not out to sack Sidious or nothing, but he isn't no god, and it is a high possibility that Dooku could kill him.
I'm going by Nai's definition, Sorgo, if you would do so kind as to read a bit closer. Review Nai's words. Perhaps he got a little confused or went overboard. If Dooku knew Anakin was going to amputate his arms, it would not have ended the same way, would it? If Dooku knew that Yoda was going to deflect all of his Force attacks, it wouldn't have been the same, would it? By Nai's words, all of these things are catching one's opponent by surprise.
When one's opponent expects one's move, one cannot secure victory. It is the OBJECTIVE to catch your opponent by surprise. Apparently, this is negative in Nai's eyes. Of course he has real-life fencing experience which I do not. But I hope he can sincerely elaborate on his choice of words
Originally posted by Escape81
I'm going by Nai's definition, Sorgo, if you would do so kind as to read a bit closer. Review Nai's words. Perhaps he got a little confused or went overboard. If Dooku knew Anakin was going to amputate his arms, it would not have ended the same way, would it? If Dooku knew that Yoda was going to deflect all of his Force attacks, it wouldn't have been the same, would it? By Nai's words, all of these things are catching one's opponent by surprise.When one's opponent expects one's move, one cannot secure victory. It is the OBJECTIVE to catch your opponent by surprise. Apparently, this is negative in Nai's eyes. Of course he has real-life fencing experience which I do not. But I hope he can sincerely elaborate on his choice of words
I do not think you understand. Sidious' tactic of suprise is beyond a different level than that. He usually tries to begin his fights with suprising his opponents. When the other characters died, yeah, it was a suprise, but on a differential circumstance, so to say.
Sidious getting thrown into a Generator Shaft is a different kind of suprise than him starting the fight by flying at his opponents or shocking his unarmed opponents.
And, once more, I stated before that Yoda is the most powerful being in the PT. Yoda is. Not Sidious. If people were going around slandering and doubting Dooku as they do Sidious, I'd be right there on the frontline to defend him. The fact of the matter is, while Dooku is superior to Sidious in saber ability, it doesn't necessarily mean he'll pound through Sidious's defenses. Yoda had a hell of a time doing it, and he's quicker than and at points stronger (!) than either Dooku or Sidious.
So, no. Dooku has a 50 percent chance at best. Sidious has a good chance of defending and weathering himself from Dooku's attacks. And as people so fondly say, 'Sidious catches his opponents off guard'. If Anakin caught Dooku off guard, Sidious sure as hell has a chance.
Originally posted by Sorgo
I do not think you understand. Sidious' tactic of suprise is beyond a different level than that. He usually tries to begin his fights with suprising his opponents. When the other characters died, yeah, it was a suprise, but on a differential circumstance, so to say.Sidious getting thrown into a Generator Shaft is a different kind of suprise than him starting the fight by flying at his opponents or shocking his unarmed opponents.
Again. This is why Sidious fights smarter than everyone else. He goes in looking to kill his opponents immediately (which, when dealing with the likes of Mace and Yoda is a smart thing, when compared to Dooku's arrogant superiority complex).
I understand. But then again, he did manage to catch a lot of Jedi by surprise. Including Yoda. So, again, he has a very BIG chance to do it to Dooku.
But thanks. You mean 'BEGINNING' by catching your opponent by surprise. I understand now. I'm just going to leave, lol.
50/50 chance. Sorry, pro-Dooku fans. No guarentee he wins. Same for Sidious.
Originally posted by Escape81
Again. This is why Sidious fights smarter than everyone else. He goes in looking to kill his opponents immediately (which, when dealing with the likes of Mace and Yoda is a smart thing, when compared to Dooku's arrogant superiority complex).I understand. But then again, he did manage to catch a lot of Jedi by surprise. Including Yoda. So, again, he has a very BIG chance to do it to Dooku.
But thanks. You mean 'BEGINNING' by catching your opponent by surprise. I understand now. I'm just going to leave, lol.
50/50 chance. Sorry, pro-Dooku fans. No guarentee he wins. Same for Sidious.
Yeah, he wants to kill his opponents immediately because he is Cowardly. Who the hell is gonna wanna fight people that are more powerful than him, correct?
Why would he try to suprise Dooku? Why would he have to? Isn't he more powerful than Dooku? Why would he need a suprise?
If Sidious is so powerful, why does he need to suprise them all?