Mormons

Originally posted by Nellinator
Umm... the grace should come first, and works will flow out of it. If works are not evident, then grace mustn't be at work.

I suppose what we need to do is make sure we're talking about the same thing when we use these words. Here is my understanding of them.

Grace - a gift from God, without which there is no salvation

Faith - a belief in something that impels action

Works - the action itself

We as Mormons believe that the Grace of God is twofold.

1- Christ paid for the transgression of Adam, meaning that no one else will ever need to. As the scriptures say, "As in Adam all die, even so in Christ are all made alive." Everyone regardless of belief or action will receive this gift of God (Grace) freely.

2- Christ paid for the sins of each individual on earth. This is where the LDS view is at times in disagreement with other Christian sects. We believe that in order to receive this gift of grace, one must accept it through repentance and baptism, in other words certain works must be performed. Although you are correct in saying that there would be no impetus to perform them if the person didn't have faith to begin with.

So we are automatically saved from the consequences of Adams transgression, but we must accept salvation from our own.

Does that make sense?

Well stated Docb.

It seems odd to me that a doctrine [Faith without works] which obviously is contradictory to any interpretation of the following scriptures is held to so strongly.

James 2:14-26

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Page 1:

*["...Grace - a gift from God, without which there is no salvation..."]

***GRACE [Biblical Definition]: GRACE is "Unmerited Favor." It is God's FREE ACTION for the benefit of His people. It is DIFFERENT than JUSTICE and MERCY...for JUSTICE is getting what we DESERVE. MERCY is NOT getting what we DESERVE. GRACE is getting what we do NOT DESERVE. In GRACE we get ETERNAL LIFE...something that, quite obviously, we do NOT DESERVE. But because of God's LOVE and KINDNESS manifested in Jesus on the Cross, we RECEIVE the great blessing of REDEMPTION.

GRACE is God's RICHES at Christ's EXPENSE. GRACE rules OUT all HUMAN MERIT...and is the PRODUCT of God, that is GIVEN by God, because of who He IS...NOT because of who we ARE. It is the MEANS of our SALVATION [Ephesians 2:8-9]. We are NO LONGER under the LAW, but under GRACE [Romans 6:14;1 Corinthians 15:11;Romans 5:2, 15-20;2 Corinthians 12:9; and 2 Corinthians 9:8].

************************************************

*["Faith - a belief in something that impels action..."]

***FAITH [Biblical Definition]: "Now FAITH is the ASSURANCE of things HOPED for, the CONVICTION of things NOT seen" [Hebrews 11:1]. It is SYNONYMOUS with TRUST...is a divine GIFT [Romans 12:3] and COMES by HEARING the Word of God [Romans 10:17]. It is the MEANS by which the GRACE of God is ACCOUNTED to the BELIEVER who TRUSTS in the WORK of Jesus Christ ON the Cross [Ephesians 2:8]. "Without FAITH it is IMPOSSIBLE to PLEASE God, " [Hebrews 11:6]. It IS by FAITH that we LIVE our lives, for "The RIGHTEOUS shall LIVE by FAITH" [Habakkuk 2:4;Romans 1:17].

************************************************

*["Works - the action itself..."]

***WORKS [Biblical Definition]: Defined in [James 2:14-26]...to wit: James raises a rhetorical question..."What good is it...if a man claims to have FAITH but has no WORKS?". The emphasis is NOT on the TRUE NATURE of FAITH...but ON the FALSE CLAIM of FAITH. It is the spurious BOAST of FAITH that James condemned. Such "faith" does NO 'good"...there is NO "profit" [ophelos]. It is "worthless" because it is ALL "talk" with NO "walk." It is only a habitual EMPTY "boast" ("claims" is in the present tense). Can such "faith" save him?...merely "claiming" to have FAITH is NOT enough...for "genuine" FAITH is EVIDENCED by "works".

The rhetorical question (above) is followed by a realistic illustration: "Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food.." (James frequently wrote about the poor in 1:9, 27;2:2-6, 15). For one in need of the basics of life...sentimental good wishes do LITTLE GOOD, like the common Jewish farewell, "Go, I wish you well." If nothing is DONE to fill the pressing need for warm clothes and satisfying food, "what good is it?" The SAME phrase that James used to introduce this paragraph [James 2:14] is REPEATED for emphasis.

The vain BOAST, "faith by itself..." or FAITH IN and of ITSELF with NO "evidence" of "action" is "dead." WORKLESS "faith" is WORTHLESS "faith"...is UNPRODUCTIVE...STERILE...BARREN...DEAD. Great "claims" may be made about a CORPSE that is supposed to have come to "life"...but if it does NOT "move"...if it has NO "vital signs"...NO 'heartbeat"...NO "pulse"...it is STILL "dead." The FALSE "claims" are "silenced" by the EVIDENCE!

An imaginary respondent, "someone" in [2:18] is introduced and says: "But someone will say, You have faith; I have deeds." He did not object to James' conclusion. He agreed that "faith" without works is "dead." But he WRONGLY "disparaged" FAITH while "stressing" WORKS. In other words, the respondent is saying, "Faith is NOT the key; what counts is WORKS." However, James did NOT say that "works" are ESSENTIAL to FAITH...or that FAITH is "unimportant." His [James] argument was that "WORKS are EVIDENCE of FAITH."

James in [verse 2:18b] challenged the "someone" to show his "faith" WITHOUT "deeds"...the point being that it CANNOT be DONE!!! James, however, said that FAITH can be demonstrated (only) by what one DOES (v. 2:18c). The demons' "belief" in God is INADEQUATE. Such a so-called but UNREAL 'faith" is obviously UNACCOMPANIED by "deeds" on their parts.

James did not launch into a lengthy refutation with the respondent...but only addressed him forcefully: "you FOOLISH man..." and returned to his ORIGINAL argument that "faith without deeds is useless" [arge, "lazy", idle, negligent"]. FLIMSY "faith" is DEAD...so are empty, faithless works. He simply said the "genuine" FAITH is ACCOMPANIED by "good works." Spiritual "works" are the EVIDENCE...NOT the "energizer" of sincere FAITH.

(Continued)

Originally posted by Marchello
Page 1:

*["...Grace - a gift from God, without which there is no salvation..."]

***GRACE [Biblical Definition]: GRACE is "Unmerited Favor." It is God's FREE ACTION for the benefit of His people. It is DIFFERENT than JUSTICE and MERCY...for JUSTICE is getting what we DESERVE. MERCY is NOT getting what we DESERVE. GRACE is getting what we do NOT DESERVE. In GRACE we get ETERNAL LIFE...something that, quite obviously, we do NOT DESERVE. But because of God's LOVE and KINDNESS manifested in Jesus on the Cross, we RECEIVE the great blessing of REDEMPTION.

GRACE is God's RICHES at Christ's EXPENSE. GRACE rules OUT all HUMAN MERIT...and is the PRODUCT of God, that is GIVEN by God, because of who He IS...NOT because of who we ARE. It is the MEANS of our SALVATION [Ephesians 2:8-9]. We are NO LONGER under the LAW, but under GRACE [Romans 6:14;1 Corinthians 15:11;Romans 5:2, 15-20;2 Corinthians 12:9; and 2 Corinthians 9:8].

************************************************

*["Faith - a belief in something that impels action..."]

***FAITH [Biblical Definition]: "Now FAITH is the ASSURANCE of things HOPED for, the CONVICTION of things NOT seen" [Hebrews 11:1]. It is SYNONYMOUS with TRUST...is a divine GIFT [Romans 12:3] and COMES by HEARING the Word of God [Romans 10:17]. It is the MEANS by which the GRACE of God is ACCOUNTED to the BELIEVER who TRUSTS in the WORK of Jesus Christ ON the Cross [Ephesians 2:8]. "Without FAITH it is IMPOSSIBLE to PLEASE God, " [Hebrews 11:6]. It IS by FAITH that we LIVE our lives, for "The RIGHTEOUS shall LIVE by FAITH" [Habakkuk 2:4;Romans 1:17].

************************************************

*["Works - the action itself..."]

***WORKS [Biblical Definition]: Defined in [James 2:14-26]...to wit: James raises a rhetorical question..."What good is it...if a man claims to have FAITH but has no WORKS?". The emphasis is NOT on the TRUE NATURE of FAITH...but ON the FALSE CLAIM of FAITH. It is the spurious BOAST of FAITH that James condemned. Such "faith" does NO 'good"...there is NO "profit" [ophelos]. It is "worthless" because it is ALL "talk" with NO "walk." It is only a habitual EMPTY "boast" ("claims" is in the present tense). Can such "faith" save him?...merely "claiming" to have FAITH is NOT enough...for "genuine" FAITH is EVIDENCED by "works".

The rhetorical question (above) is followed by a realistic illustration: "Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food.." (James frequently wrote about the poor in 1:9, 27;2:2-6, 15). For one in need of the basics of life...sentimental good wishes do LITTLE GOOD, like the common Jewish farewell, "Go, I wish you well." If nothing is DONE to fill the pressing need for warm clothes and satisfying food, "what good is it?" The SAME phrase that James used to introduce this paragraph [James 2:14] is REPEATED for emphasis.

The vain BOAST, "faith by itself..." or FAITH IN and of ITSELF with NO "evidence" of "action" is "dead." WORKLESS "faith" is WORTHLESS "faith"...is UNPRODUCTIVE...STERILE...BARREN...DEAD. Great "claims" may be made about a CORPSE that is supposed to have come to "life"...but if it does NOT "move"...if it has NO "vital signs"...NO 'heartbeat"...NO "pulse"...it is STILL "dead." The FALSE "claims" are "silenced" by the EVIDENCE!

An imaginary respondent, "someone" in [2:18] is introduced and says: "But someone will say, You have faith; I have deeds." He did not object to James' conclusion. He agreed that "faith" without works is "dead." But he WRONGLY "disparaged" FAITH while "stressing" WORKS. In other words, the respondent is saying, "Faith is NOT the key; what counts is WORKS." However, James did NOT say that "works" are ESSENTIAL to FAITH...or that FAITH is "unimportant." His [James] argument was that "WORKS are EVIDENCE of FAITH."

James in [verse 2:18b] challenged the "someone" to show his "faith" WITHOUT "deeds"...the point being that it CANNOT be DONE!!! James, however, said that FAITH can be demonstrated (only) by what one DOES (v. 2:18c). The demons' "belief" in God is INADEQUATE. Such a so-called but UNREAL 'faith" is obviously UNACCOMPANIED by "deeds" on their parts.

James did not launch into a lengthy refutation with the respondent...but only addressed him forcefully: "you FOOLISH man..." and returned to his ORIGINAL argument that "faith without deeds is useless" [arge, "lazy", idle, negligent"]. FLIMSY "faith" is DEAD...so are empty, faithless works. He simply said the "genuine" FAITH is ACCOMPANIED by "good works." Spiritual "works" are the EVIDENCE...NOT the "energizer" of sincere FAITH.

(Continued)

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Page 2:

*["We as Mormons believe that the Grace of God is twofold..."]

***You, as Mormons, can believe what you want...but we, as Christians, do NOT believe that...for that is NOT what the Scriptures teach.

***********************************************

*["1- Christ paid for the transgression of Adam, meaning that no one else will ever need to. As the scriptures say, "As in Adam all die, even so in Christ are all made alive." Everyone regardless of belief or action will receive this gift of God (Grace) freely."]

***And, of course, as a Mormon you do ERR...NOT knowing the Scripture NOR God...that you might be saved. This scripture [1 Corinthians 15:22] refers ONLY to the RESURRECTION of BELIEVERS [i.e., those "in Christ" who shall be made ALIVE...as OPPOSED to those "in Adam" who will DIE].

DEATH came to ALL those related to Adam by NATURAL birth because of the DISOBEDIENCE of ONE man [Adam]. As the father of mankind...Adam in his SIN brought DEATH to EVERYBODY [Genesis 3:17-19;Romans 5:12;Psalm 51:5]. But because of the OBEDIENCE [Philippians 2:8] of ANOTHER man [1 Timothy 2:5]...RESURRECTION will come to ALL those RELATED to Him [i.e., Jesus Christ] by SPIRITUAL BIRTH [i.e., the NEW BIRTH...John 3:3-21]. Paul would later expand this grand truth in his letter to the Romans [Romans 5:12-19]. Those who are a part of the Body of Christ [1 Corinthians 12;27] will one day follow the lead of their HEAD [Colossians 1:18].

*************************************************

*["2- Christ paid for the sins of each individual on earth. This is where the LDS view is at times in disagreement with other Christian sects..."]

***Mormonism is NOT a Christian religion...so that it is impossible for you to be in "disagreement with OTHER Christian sects""...you are ONLY in "disagreement with Christian sects."

*************************************************

*["We believe that in order to receive this gift of grace, one must accept it through repentance and baptism, in other words certain works must be performed. Although you are correct in saying that there would be no impetus to perform them if the person didn't have faith to begin with.

So we are automatically saved from the consequences of Adams transgression, but we must accept salvation from our own."]

***Peter's answer in [Acts 2:38] was forthright. FIRST they were to REPENT. This verb [metanoesate] means "change your outlook," or "have a change of heart;reverse the direction of your life." This obviously results in a CHANGE of CONDUCT...but the EMPHASIS is on the MIND or OUTLOOK. The Jews had rejected Jesus; now they were to TRUST in Him. REPENTANCE was repeatedly part of the apostles' message in Acts [v. 38;3:19;5:31;8:22;11:18;13:24;17:30;19:420:21;26:20].

A problem revolves around the command "be baptized" and its connection with the remainder of [Acts 2:38]. There are several views:

(1)One is that BOTH "repentance and baptism" result in REMISSION of sins. In this view, baptism is ESSENTIAL for SALVATION. The PROBLEM with this "interpretation" is that elsewhere in Scripture forgiveness of sins is BASED on FAITH ALONE [John 3:16, 36;Romans 4:1-17;11:6;Galatians 3:8-9;Ephesians 2:8-9; etc.]. Furthermore Peter, the SAME speaker, later promised FORGIVENESS of SINS on the BASIS of FAITH ALONE [Acts 5:31;10:43;13:38;26:18].

(2)A second interpretation translates 2:38, "Be baptized...on the basis of the remission of your sins." The preposition used here is [eis] which...with the accusative case, may mean "on account of, on the basis of." It is used, in this way in [Matthew 3:11;12:41; and Mark 1:4]. Though it is possible for this construction to mean "on the basis of, " this is NOT its normal meaning; [eis] with the accusative case usually describes PURPOSE or DIRECTION.

(3)A third view takes the clause "and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ" as parenthetical. Several factors SUPPORT this interpretation: (a)The verb makes a DISTINCTION between SINGULAR and PLURAL verbs and nouns. The verb "repent" is PLURAL and so is the pronoun "your" in the clause "so that YOUR sins may be forgiven [literally "unto the remission of your sins,"...eis aphesin ton hamartion hymon]. Therefore the verb "repent" must go with the PURPOSE of forgiveness of sins. On the other hand...the imperative "be
baptized" is SINGULAR, setting it off from the rest of the sentence. (b)This concept fits with Peter's proclamation in [Acts 10:43] in which the SAME expression "sins may be forgiven" [aphesin hamartion] occurs. There it is granted on the basis of FAITH alone. (c)In [Luke 24:47] and [Acts 5:31] the same writer, Luke, indicates that REPENTANCE results in remission of sins.

"The gift of the Holy Ghost" is God's "promise" [Acts 1:5,8;2:33] to THOSE who TURN to the Lord...including Jews and their descendants and those "who are far off"...that is, Gentiles [Ephesians 2:13,17,19]. Acts 2:38-39 put together the HUMAN side of salvation ["repent"]...and the DIVINE side ["call" means "to elect"]; [cf. Romans 8:28-30].

**********************************************

*["Does that make sense?"]

***Absolutely NOT.

Marchello

Gee Marchello, you still seem to be ignoring all the other scriptures that imply necessary actions in order to obtain salvation. You still haven't touched the incident with the wealthy young man for example.

You keep saying that you're a Christian, but I'm still not seeing it. You just believe in to many non biblical doctrines, ie. faith alone, amalgam God, Not to mention ignoring the command from the Lord to love others.

Originally posted by Marchello
***You, as Mormons, can believe what you want...but we, as Christians, do NOT believe that...for that is NOT what the Scriptures teach.

Wrong, because you don't get to define what a Christian is. People like you merely get to define what YOUR particular branch of Christianity is. Blather all you want, but Mormons will still be classifiable as Christians as long as they meet the simple criteria of having faith in Jesus as the Christ.

You really need to get your head around that. All this grandstanding "we as Christians do NOT believe that" is hilarious. Really, it is.

As far as I can see they still believe Jesus is the way, they just believe there are certain actions needed to get one on the path. What on earth is wrong with that I ask? If your God really is so petty as to say "no, you added a step to the process" then he deserves to be a lonely failure with only you keeping him company.

***And, of course, as a Mormon you do ERR...NOT knowing the Scripture NOR God...that you might be saved. This scripture [1 Corinthians 15:22] refers ONLY to the RESURRECTION of BELIEVERS [i.e., those "in Christ" who shall be made ALIVE...as OPPOSED to those "in Adam" who will DIE].

DEATH came to ALL those related to Adam by NATURAL birth because of the DISOBEDIENCE of ONE man [Adam]. As the father of mankind...Adam in his SIN brought DEATH to EVERYBODY [Genesis 3:17-19;Romans 5:12;Psalm 51:5]. But because of the OBEDIENCE [Philippians 2:8] of ANOTHER man [1 Timothy 2:5]...RESURRECTION will come to ALL those RELATED to Him [i.e., Jesus Christ] by SPIRITUAL BIRTH [i.e., the NEW BIRTH...John 3:3-21]. Paul would later expand this grand truth in his letter to the Romans [Romans 5:12-19]. Those who are a part of the Body of Christ [1 Corinthians 12;27] will one day follow the lead of their HEAD [Colossians 1:18].

God, I love some of you crazy cats ideas on free will. That is exactly one of my problems with the whole she-bang - what better way to insure people join your Church then to tell them they have no choice in the matter - you didn't choose to be a dirty, rotten soul. Adam and Eve made that decision for us. It insure there will be no "but I didn't eat the apple, so I think I'll pass" - no, we didn't eat the apple, but we are still paying for it.

But, for loyalty to our cause and a few words you can be freed of that. Yeah... thanks.

***Mormonism is NOT a Christian religion...so that it is impossible for you to be in "disagreement with OTHER Christian sects""...you are ONLY in "disagreement with Christian sects."

You don't get to make that call. As above - Mormonism meets all the criteria of being a Christian religion.

Cry foul all you want - you are arguing doctrine makes someone Christian - not so. Faith does. Mormons are of Christian faith (Jesus Christ - etc) and... that...is...all...it...takes!

***Absolutely NOT.

Only for those who are terminally hard of understanding.

Originally posted by Marchello
*["We as Mormons believe that the Grace of God is twofold..."]

***You, as Mormons, can believe what you want...but we, as Christians, do NOT believe that...for that is NOT what the Scriptures teach.

Matthew 7:16-21
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Ephesians 5:9
9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth; )

Galations 5:19-26
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

While I find it hard to do so, I will attempt to follow this statement concerning yourself:

Luke 6:35
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

I do not apologize for my beliefs though, for they are correct, I have the Spirit as my witness that they are. Prophets have returned to the world, beginning with Joseph Smith, and continuing through the present with Gordon B. Hinkley, this I know. Love and compassion are our fruits, and "every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit"(Matthew 7:17). As well as "a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit"(Matthew 7:18). I know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not evil, given this, it is good. In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

*["...we do not believe God had sexual relations with Mary. We believe Mary to have been a virgin..."]

***You believe no such thing...for you go against the testimony of one of your illustrious cult leaders [Brigham Young]...who said that your "god" had SEX with the Virgin Mary...and didn't let any other MAN "do it" with her...that Jesus' birth, etc., was the "result" of NATURAL ACTION. Now, since the "god" of Mormonism is an "immortal" MAN...and, I assume, with GENITALIA, and Young said it was a "natural" conception...then HOW did she REMAIN a "virgin?"...THAT is the question.

Marchello

Originally posted by Marchello
*["...we do not believe God had sexual relations with Mary. We believe Mary to have been a virgin..."]

***You believe no such thing...for you go against the testimony of one of your illustrious cult leaders [Brigham Young]...who said that your "god" had SEX with the Virgin Mary...and didn't let any other MAN "do it" with her...that Jesus' birth, etc., was the "result" of NATURAL ACTION. Now, since the "god" of Mormonism is an "immortal" MAN...and, I assume, with GENITALIA, and Young said it was a "natural" conception...then HOW did she REMAIN a "virgin?"...THAT is the question.

Marchello

That's BS, you stretch the words past recognition in a futile effort to make a poorly thought out point. I know it's hard for you religious fanatics to do, but witness logic in action:

Premise the first - God operates via the Laws of Nature, He has a perfect understanding of them.

Premise second - Man attains greater power via his understanding these same laws. examples - fire, flight, nuclear power

Now if Man can do something with his limited understanding of these laws, does it not stand to reason that God could do even better?

Man can and does cause children to be born who aren't the result of sexual relations (it's called invitro fertilization in case you don't believe me).

Therefore God could have, and did cause Jesus to be concieved "naturally" without sex needing to be involved.

ohhh dear, look he's gonna say that invitro was not mentioned in the bible or related scriptures, so then it must be the work of the devil or some sh|t like that.

Marcello you are stupid

Originally posted by docb77
That's BS, you stretch the words past recognition in a futile effort to make a poorly thought out point. I know it's hard for you religious fanatics to do, but witness logic in action:

Premise the first - God operates via the Laws of Nature, He has a perfect understanding of them.

Premise second - Man attains greater power via his understanding these same laws. examples - fire, flight, nuclear power

Now if Man can do something with his limited understanding of these laws, does it not stand to reason that God could do even better?

Man can and does cause children to be born who aren't the result of sexual relations (it's called invitro fertilization in case you don't believe me).

Therefore God could have, and did cause Jesus to be concieved "naturally" without sex needing to be involved.

***Tis a nerve I have struck! No matter how much you deny it...your illustrious Mr. Brigham Young says that Father 'god" did "it." Hear the words of the "second prophet" of the Mormon Church: "The birth of the Savior was as NATURAL as the BIRTHS of OUR CHILDREN; it was the RESULT of NATURAL action. He partook of FLESH and BLOOD--was BEGOTTEN of his FATHER, as WE WERE of OUR FATHERS" [Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8, p. 115]. It could NOT be PLAINER!

BOTTOM-LINE: Father "god" did it according to your great "prophet"...would he LIE?...tsk...tsk.

Marchello

Originally posted by Marchello
***Tis a nerve I have struck! No matter how much you deny it...your illustrious Mr. Brigham Young says that Father 'god" did "it." Hear the words of the "second prophet" of the Mormon Church: "The birth of the Savior was as NATURAL as the BIRTHS of OUR CHILDREN; it was the RESULT of NATURAL action. He partook of FLESH and BLOOD--was BEGOTTEN of his FATHER, as WE WERE of OUR FATHERS" [Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8, p. 115]. It could NOT be PLAINER!

BOTTOM-LINE: Father "god" did it according to your great "prophet"...would he LIE?...tsk...tsk.

Marchello

***ADDENDA: The late Bruce McCONKIE who was a member of the First Council of the Seventy stated: "There is nothing FIGURATIVE about the PATERNITY; he was BEGOTTEN, CONCEIVED and BORN in the NORMAL and NATURAL course of events..." [Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, page 742].

Marchello

Originally posted by Marchello
***ADDENDA: The late Bruce McCONKIE who was a member of the First Council of the Seventy stated: "There is nothing FIGURATIVE about the PATERNITY; he was BEGOTTEN, CONCEIVED and BORN in the NORMAL and NATURAL course of events..." [Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, page 742].

Marchello

Are you saying that "test tube babies" aren't "Begotten, concieved and born" in a normal and natural way?

Think a little here. What is the normal way conception happens? (hint, conception does not equal sex) 2 sets of genes combine to form the genetic material for one person.

As a side note... Are you saying that Jesus isn't the literal son of God?

Originally posted by Marchello
***Tis a nerve I have struck! No matter how much you deny it...your illustrious Mr. Brigham Young says that Father 'god" did "it." Hear the words of the "second prophet" of the Mormon Church: "The birth of the Savior was as NATURAL as the BIRTHS of OUR CHILDREN; it was the RESULT of NATURAL action. He partook of FLESH and BLOOD--was BEGOTTEN of his FATHER, as WE WERE of OUR FATHERS" [Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8, p. 115]. It could NOT be PLAINER!

BOTTOM-LINE: Father "god" did it according to your great "prophet"...would he LIE?...tsk...tsk.

Marchello

Maybe it is just me.... but since when has the word "birth" also meant "conception" - I read that, and I get "his birth was as natural as all get go" - that is Jesus just didn't pop into existence, that he wasn't found in the cabbage patch, that Mary didn't wake up and just discover him their - but rather he was born like any other person, probably with a like to pushing and noise, much like most babies are born. It was a natural birth!!!

He partook of flesh - well, Jesus did, didn't he? Unless he was a ghost or something.

I don't see "he was conceived in a human way" - one could argue that "begotten" means that, but I see that as "Jesus was fathered by his father, just as we are fathered by ours" - which he was. God was the father, he did begot him.

And once again - even if it was about "God had teh sex with teh women and teh baby was born" - why the conflict? Were exactly is the rule that a person can't be Christian and think Jesus was the product of a physical liaison between God and Mary? No where - once again that is doctrine/personal view. Not a definitive one.

***ADDENDA: The late Bruce McCONKIE who was a member of the First Council of the Seventy stated: "There is nothing FIGURATIVE about the PATERNITY; he was BEGOTTEN, CONCEIVED and BORN in the NORMAL and NATURAL course of events..." [Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, page 742].

Color me non-plussed - if one believes in Jesus one believes he existed and that he was born a boy-child yes? So obviosuly it stands to reason it happened in the normal course of events. That does not mean God took on a mortal form and had sex with Mary. You are interpreting the phrasing as you wish, when there is no mention of sex or God in human flesh.

Was Jesus born - Christians claim yes.
Does they by extention mean he must have been carried during the pregnacy? - Obviously - it would be unnatural otherwise.
If Mary is his biological mother then logically Jesus must have been conceived at some point - or did God just implant Jesus premade into the womb?

Does that mean God had sex with Mary? I don't see why it should.

Originally posted by docb77
Are you saying that "test tube babies" aren't "Begotten, concieved and born" in a normal and natural way?

Think a little here. What is the normal way conception happens? (hint, conception does not equal sex) 2 sets of genes combine to form the genetic material for one person.

As a side note... Are you saying that Jesus isn't the literal son of God?

***Answer to your side note: (1)My Jesus is the Son of God...but NOT the Son of the Mormon "god" who is NO God at all...(2)My Jesus is UNCREATED [John 1:1-3;Colossians 1:16-17]...UNLIKE your "jesus" who is CREATED [Mormon Doctrine by Bruce McConkie, pp. 192, 589] (3)My Jesus is NOT the brother of the devil [i.e., who is a fallen created angel]. Jesus created all things [Colossians 1:16-17] and is, therefore, NOT the brother of the devil...(4)My Jesus is the Second person of the Trinity...your "jesus" is one of three "gods" [Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 319]...(5)My Jesus IS prayed to [Acts 7:60;1Corinthians 1:1-2]...your "jesus" is NOT prayed to...(6)My Jesus DID pay for ALL sins [1 John 2:2;1 Peter 2:24]...your "jesus" did NOT pay for all sins and could NOT for he is a CREATED being [Joseph F. Smith, Vol. 1, p. 135].

Your "rationalization" of the facts is a desperate attempt to justify the spurious doctrines of your SATANIC cult. The "jesus" of Mormonism is NOT the Jesus of the Bible. Because the Jesus of Mormonism is false...the faith of Mormons is useless. Faith is only as good as the OBJECT in which it is placed. The "jesus" of Mormonism should be called something else like Sasquatch...Baruby...Joe...etc....then there wouldn't be any problem at all identifying it as something other than biblical.

Marchello

and Neither is the real Jesus the same Jesus as in the bible.

Mormons faith is merely a revison of your old, somewhat outdated FAITH. The bible never said anything bout people having the brain power to analyse and interpret the bible differently. That does not mean that it is wrong. At the time the bible was written, the people( race/culture) it was written for needed guidance, they needed to be freed from other cultures that were not monotheistic( sp?). The literal meaning or the rough translations that WE SEE NOW, were meant for the people back then. Obviously as time progressed the meaning of the words went from literal to metaphorical.

Why does everyone see this( well those that post in here, cept JIA and similiar clones) EXCEPT YOU??????????

the internet was not mentioned in the bible, so then it must be satanic!!! QUICK free yourself and leave it forever.

Marcello is a blind and hateful person, why do you guys even bother with him? Just put him on your ignore like I did, he is hopeless.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Marcello is a blind and hateful person, why do you guys even bother with him? Just put him on your ignore like I did, he is hopeless.

I suppose that you're right. I can see that pretty much everyone sees him for what he is. No real need to clarify his lies and misinterpretations anymore. (I suppose if I were him I would have capitalized lies and misinterpretations wouldn't I?)