Originally posted by fini
ohhh dear, look he's gonna say that invitro was not mentioned in the bible or related scriptures, so then it must be the work of the devil or some sh|t like that.
***It is not the "invitro" procedure that concerns me...it is your unseemly "womanly" expression that does. For a "woman"...your use of foul language is more akin to the behavior of a UNREGENERATE man.
Marchello
whoa its the man who can't think for himself throwing insults???
DUDE stick to quoting scriptures and using thoughts and ideas that ARE NOT YOURS, you are good at that.
And what is wrong with the word sh*t???
THE fact that you refuse to listen and have proven to be a hypocrite of the highest degree, gives me alllll the reason in the world to say that you will say some sh*t
OR you want me to hit you with something more, you f**king, ignorant ..............................................????
Anyone can use whatever language they want, especially when plain, sensical language is WASTED ON YOU.
Everyone has and carries on a good DISCUSSION............ you know, where two people listen, understand, analyse etc............. you come in here and lay down judgement, claiming that you are right all the time. NO one is right all the time, EVEN THAT book(s) you quote from............. IT WAS INSPIRED BY GOD, BUT MAN WROTE, REWROTED, TRANSLATED and RETRANSLATED IT.............. man is not perfect, so what you think is the perfect word of god had long been corrupted by the imperfection of man. SO TAKE THAT and smoke yuh pipe!!!!!!!!
Originally posted by MarchelloThere is no difference in the speech characteristics of man and women they are equal and I don't like your use of " when you say women
***It is not the "invitro" procedure that concerns me...it is your unseemly "womanly" expression that does. For a "woman"...your use of foul language is more akin to the behavior of a UNREGENERATE man.Marchello
Originally posted by TRH
Marchello a Christian is someone who believes Christ died on the cross for the salvation of mankind there is no biblical evidence to support you and your hypocrisy whatsoever
***It is true that the Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross to save mankind...but MOST of mankind will NOT come to Him that they might be SAVED. However..."But as many as RECEIVED Him, to THEM gave He power to BECOME the SONS [and DAUGHTERS] of God, even to them that BELIEVE on His NAME: Which were born, NOT of BLOOD, nor of the WILL of the FLESH, nor of the WILL of MAN, but of God" [John 1:12, 13].
BOTTON-LINE: Only THOSE who have RECEIVED Jesus Christ as SAVIOUR and GOD are REDEEMED...NONE others. All without Jesus Christ as SAVIOUR will PERISH.
Marchello
LDS Prophet on the subject of Christ's Conception:
A letter from Harold B. Lee, Prophet, Seer and Revelator to a member, Bruce Bracken, in Logan, Utah January 2 1969Written in pen (the letter had been typed) "see also 1 Nephi 11:16-24"😉Bruce Bracken
Logan, Utah 84321Dear Brother Bracken:
We are very much concerned that some of our Church teachers seem to be obsessed of the idea of teaching doctrine which cannot be substantiated and making comments beyond what the Lord has actually said.
You asked about the Immaculate Conception of the birth of the Savior. Never have I talked about "sexual intercourse" between Deity and the mother of the Savior. If teachers were wise in speaking of this matter about which the Lord has said but very little, they would rest their discussion on this subject with merely the words which are recorded on this subject by Luke 1:34-35:[quote]34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Remember that that being who brought about the Immaculate Conception was a divine personage. We need not question his method to accomplish his purposes. Perhaps we would do well to remember the words of Isaiah 55:8-9:
8 ¶ For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.Let the Lord rest His case with this declaration and wait until he sees fit to tell us more.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Sincerely yours,
Harold B. Lee[/quote]
Here is 1 Nephi 11:16-24:
1 Nephi 11:16-2416 And he said unto me: Knowest thou the condescension of God?
17 And I said unto him: I know that he loveth his children; nevertheless, I do not know the meaning of all things.
18 And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.
19 And it came to pass that I beheld that she was carried away in the Spirit; and after she had been carried away in the Spirit for the space of a time the angel spake unto me, saying: Look!
20 And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms.
21 And the angel said unto me: Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Son of the Eternal Father! Knowest thou the meaning of the tree which thy father saw?
22 And I answered him, saying: Yea, it is the love of God, which sheddeth itself abroad in the hearts of the children of men; wherefore, it is the most desirable above all things.
23 And he spake unto me, saying: Yea, and the most joyous to the soul.
24 And after he had said these words, he said unto me: Look! And I looked, and I beheld the Son of God going forth among the children of men; and I saw many fall down at his feet and worship him.
Further LDS statements on the subject of Christ's conception:
Was Mary a virgin?by W. John Walsh
If Jesus was conceived as a result of a physical union between God and Mary, how was Jesus born of a virgin? (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, page 50).
One of the more common misrepresentations spread by anti-Mormons is that Latter-day Saints do not believe in the virgin birth (i.e., that Mary was a virgin when Jesus was born). Let's begin by clearly stating the official doctrine of the Church, as contained in the Book of Mormon:
"And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God." (Alma 7:10, emphasis added)
As we can see, the virgin birth is an official doctrine of the Church. Occasionally, the critics produce statements from LDS literature like the following:
"God the Father is a perfected, glorified, holy Man, an immortal Personage. And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God, and that designation means what it says." (Elder Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.742)
"When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost." (President Brigham Young on April 9, 1852. The Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, page 50)
The critics would offer these types of statements as evidence that Latter-day Saints believe that Mary was not a virgin when Jesus was born. They falsely say that descriptive terms like "normal and natural course of events" must mean normal sexual relations as we understand them. While this might be a possible interpretation if no other information existed on this subject, the critics conveniently ignore all other information that proves their interpretation of these types of statements to be incorrect, such as:
"Our Lord is the only mortal person ever born to a virgin, because he is the only person who ever had an immortal Father. Mary, his mother, "was carried away in the Spirit" (1 Ne. 11:13-21), was "overshadowed" by the Holy Ghost, and the conception which took place "by the power of the Holy Ghost" resulted in the bringing forth of the literal and personal Son of God the Father. (Alma 7:10; 2 Ne. 17:14; Isa. 7:14; Matt. 1:18-25; Luke 1:26-38.) Christ is not the Son of the Holy Ghost, but of the Father. (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp. 18-20.) Modernistic teachings denying the virgin birth are utterly and completely apostate and false. (Elder Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.822, emphasis added)
"He was the Only Begotten Son of our Heavenly Father in the flesh—the only child whose mortal body was begotten by our Heavenly Father. His mortal mother, Mary, was called a virgin, both before and after she gave birth. (See 1 Nephi 11:20.)" ("Joy in Christ," Ensign 16 [March 1986]: 3-4., emphasis added) (See President Benson's Teachings About Christ)
It is worth noting that many of these clarifying statements appear in the exact same literature as the other statements quoted above. Therefore, the critics were aware of them and purposely chose to ignore them. I will leave it to the reader's judgment as to why our enemies might do such a thing.
Since it is clear that Latter-day Saints believe in the virgin birth, then how do we interpret the statements that might imply otherwise [implied only if nothing else were known]? The key to understanding lies in the differences between Trinitarian theology and LDS doctrine. Unlike Trinitarians, who believe that the Father and Son are of one essence, Latter-day Saints believe that the members of the Godhead are separate personages united in purpose, power, and glory. This is a key theological difference between us and the Trinitarians.
Since the Holy Ghost is a separate personage from God the Father, it is important to point out that Jesus is the only begotten son of God the Father and not the son of the Holy Ghost. We should make it clear that when Church leaders state that Jesus is not the son of the Holy Ghost, they are not saying that the power of the Holy Ghost was not used in the conception process. They are simply saying that the Holy Ghost personage is not the father of Jesus.
The fact that Jesus Christ is begotten of the Father is abundantly testified to by scripture: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16). When Jesus was baptized, God the Father spoke from heaven and said, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." (Matthew 3:17) If one cannot believe God, then whom can one believe? President Ezra Taft Benson taught:
"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost. He is the Son of the Eternal Father." (Come unto Christ, p. 4.)
If Jesus is truly the Son of God the Father, then what part did the Holy Ghost play in his miraculous conception? The Father used the power of the Holy Ghost as an agent, or enabler, so that a virgin could give birth to his Son. The specifics are beyond our knowledge and possibly our comprehension.
Therefore, the statements from Church leaders indicating that Jesus was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events should be understood that God works through natural means in everything that he does. At times, his works like the Virgin Birth may seem to defy natural laws as man knows them. In those cases, we should understand that "[our Heavenly Father beget Jesus of a virgin] not in violation of natural law but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof" (Elder James E. Talmage, Jesus the Christ, p. 81).
For example, President Joseph Fielding Smith taught:
"A miracle is not, as many believe, the setting aside or overruling natural laws. Every miracle performed in Biblical days or now, is done on natural principles and in obedience to natural law. The healing of the sick, the raising of the dead, giving eyesight to the blind, whatever it may be that is done by the power of God, is in accordance with natural law. Because we do not understand how it is done, does not argue for the impossibility of it. Our Father in heaven knows many laws that are hidden from us." (Man: His Origin and Destiny, p. 484- TLDP:649, emphasis added)
Elder James E. Talmage taught:
Miracles cannot be in contravention of natural law, but are wrought through the operation of laws not universally or commonly recognized. Gravitation is everywhere operative, but the local and special application of other agencies may appear to nullify it -- as by muscular effort or mechanical impulse a stone is lifted from the ground, poised aloft, or sent hurtling through space. At every stage of the process, however, gravity is in full play, though its effect is modified by that of other and locally superior energy. The human sense of the miraculous wanes as comprehension of the operative process increases. (Jesus the Christ, Ch.11, p.148, emphasis added)
In other words, while we may not understand how a virgin can conceive a child, the virgin birth did occur and it was a natural event, not an unnatural one.
The Bible on whether or not man can become as God:
1 John 3:1-3"...we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him." We can become as God.1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
*["whoa its the man who can't think for himself throwing insults???"]
***Nothing that I said in my post was insulting...it was a fact...even if you don"t "like" it.
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*["DUDE stick to quoting scriptures and using thoughts and ideas that ARE NOT YOURS, you are good at that."]
***N/A
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*["And what is wrong with the word sh*t???"]
***To the "profane" absolutely nothing.
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*["THE fact that you refuse to listen and have proven to be a hypocrite of the highest degree, gives me alllll the reason in the world to say that you will say some sh*t..."]
***I always listen...but I don't always agree...and because I don't agree you call me a hypocrite [which you have NEVER proven]. Too, how does the fact that (1)I always listen, (2)don't always agree, (3)and have NEVER been proven to be a hypocrite give you "allll the reason in the world..." to use language that is "unbecoming" to a woman?
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*["OR you want me to hit you with something more, you f**king, ignorant ..............................................????"]
***N/A
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*["Anyone can use whatever language they want, especially when plain, sensical language is WASTED ON YOU."]
***N/A
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*["Everyone has and carries on a good DISCUSSION............ you know, where two people listen, understand, analyse etc............."]
***Everyone does NOT carry on a good DISCUSSION on this thread. The only ones that carry on a "good discussion" are those whose opinions you agree with...none others may apply. When they don't agree with your "opinion" you rsort to profanity. Tis sad.
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*["you come in here and lay down judgement, claiming that you are right all the time. NO one is right all the time..."]
***It is not I who lays down judgment...it is the Scriptures [i.e., the Word of God] that I quote that lays down the "judgments" upon you and others on this thread...to wit: "And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to SAVE the world. He that REJECTETH me, and receiveth NOT my words, hath one that judgeth him: the WORD THAT I HAVE SPOKEN, the SAME shall JUDGE him in the last day" [John 12:47-48].
You are correct...no one is right all the time...but the Scriptures [the Word of God] are RIGHT all the time: "For the word of God is QUICK, and POWERFUL, and SHARPER than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a DISCERNER of the THOUGHTS and INTENTS of the heart"[Hebrews 4:12].
BOTTOM-LINE: I do not lay down judgments...but the AUTHORITY that I quote [Scriptures] DO, indeed, lay them down...and you do not like that...for it reveals WHO and WHAT you REALLY ARE...a person in NEED of redemption.
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*["EVEN THAT book(s) you quote from............. IT WAS INSPIRED BY GOD, BUT MAN WROTE, REWROTED, TRANSLATED and RETRANSLATED IT.............. man is not perfect, so what you think is the perfect word of god had long been corrupted by the imperfection of man."]
***This is the litany of all those who refuse to believe the Word of God because if they did believe it...they would have to conform to its' dictates...and it is a price they are unwilling to pay. So they reject it...and concoct a myriad of reasons why they will not accept it to JUSTIFY their unbelief and rebellion against God. But like our Lord said, "...He that REJECTETH me, and receiveth NOT my WORDS, hath one that JUDGETH him...the WORD that I have spoken, the SAME shall JUDGE him in the last day" [John 12:48].
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*["SO TAKE THAT and smoke yuh pipe!!!!!!!!"]
***N/A
Marchello
Originally posted by Regret
LDS Prophet on the subject of Christ's Conception:Written in pen (the letter had been typed) "see also 1 Nephi 11:16-24"😉Remember that that being who brought about the Immaculate Conception was a divine personage. We need not question his method to accomplish his purposes. Perhaps we would do well to remember the words of Isaiah 55:8-9:Let the Lord rest His case with this declaration and wait until he sees fit to tell us more.
Sincerely yours,
Harold B. Lee
Here is 1 Nephi 11:16-24: [/QUOTE]
***The doctrine of the IMMACULATE CONCEPTION has NOTHING to do with the BIRTH of Jesus Christ...it teaches that Mary herself was BORN without SIN, that from the very first moment of her existence she was free from the taint of original sin. It holds that while all the rest of mankind are born into an inheritance of original sin, Mary alone, by a special miracle of God, was excepted. The original decree setting forth this doctrine was issued by pope Pius IX, on December 8, 1854. Of course, this doctrine is FALSE and anti-biblical.
Marchello
Originally posted by MarchelloBottom Line-Mormons Have Recived Christ As There Saviour....
***It is true that the Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross to save mankind...but MOST of mankind will NOT come to Him that they might be SAVED. However..."But as many as RECEIVED Him, to THEM gave He power to BECOME the SONS [and DAUGHTERS] of God, even to them that BELIEVE on His NAME: Which were born, NOT of BLOOD, nor of the WILL of the FLESH, nor of the WILL of MAN, but of God" [John 1:12, 13].BOTTON-LINE: Only THOSE who have RECEIVED Jesus Christ as SAVIOUR and GOD are REDEEMED...NONE others. All without Jesus Christ as SAVIOUR will PERISH.
Marchello
Originally posted by Marchello
Here is 1 Nephi 11:16-24:
***The doctrine of the IMMACULATE CONCEPTION has NOTHING to do with the BIRTH of Jesus Christ...it teaches that Mary herself was BORN without SIN, that from the very first moment of her existence she was free from the taint of original sin. It holds that while all the rest of mankind are born into an inheritance of original sin, Mary alone, by a special miracle of God, was excepted. The original decree setting forth this doctrine was issued by pope Pius IX, on December 8, 1854. Of course, this doctrine is FALSE and anti-biblical.
Marchello [/B][/QUOTE] You cant say we need redemption you don't know us in real life,you don't know where we go to church or where we work,you don't help the Christian faith you hurt by driving people away from it
Originally posted by MarchelloImmaculate conception from an LDS perspective is that the Virgin Mary conceived Christ free from all stain of sin. Our belief in the concept is not that Mary was always without sin, nor that she continued without sin. Only that Christ's conception was the immaculate conception. Unless of course you do not believe Christ's conception was immaculate?***The doctrine of the IMMACULATE CONCEPTION has NOTHING to do with the BIRTH of Jesus Christ...it teaches that Mary herself was BORN without SIN, that from the very first moment of her existence she was free from the taint of original sin. It holds that while all the rest of mankind are born into an inheritance of original sin, Mary alone, by a special miracle of God, was excepted. The original decree setting forth this doctrine was issued by pope Pius IX, on December 8, 1854. Of course, this doctrine is FALSE and anti-biblical.
Marchello
You have issues Marchello. Perhaps therapy would be useful and beneficial given your attitudes.
*["You cant say we need redemption..."]
***That is correct...and I don't say that...the Scriptures SAY that. The Scriptures say that the Mormons know NOT the God of the Bible...but other "gods" that are NOT the God of the Bible and, therefore, FALSE "gods" [i.e., demons]. The Mormons are NOT Christians but a CULT of epic proportions.
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*["...you don't know us in real life,you don't know where we go to church or where we work..."]
***I don't need to know you on a personal level...but I know your WORDS...and they are all CONTRARY to the Scriptures like all other CULTS: "O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh" [Matthew 12:34].
Too, it is irrelevant where you go to church...for your church or my church CAN'T save you...ONLY Christ CAN save you. Since the Mormons don't worship the Christ of the Bible and consider Him a CREATED being...your "christ" can't save you or anyone else...and you WILL perish.
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*["you don't help the Christian faith you hurt by driving people away from it."]
***All TRUE Christians belong to the SAME Church [which is Christ's Body] no matter what denomination. Too, no one can drive them away from it. Those "christians" that are driven away NEVER were members of the Body of Christ: "They went out from us, but they were NOT OF US: for if they had been OF US, they would no doubt have CONTINUED with us: but they WENT OUT, that they might be made MANIFEST that they were NOT all OF US" [1 John 2:19].
Marchello
Originally posted by Regret
Immaculate conception from an LDS perspective is that the Virgin Mary conceived Christ free from all stain of sin. Our belief in the concept is not that Mary was always without sin, nor that she continued without sin. Only that Christ's conception was the immaculate conception. Unless of course you do not believe Christ's conception was immaculate?You have issues Marchello. Perhaps therapy would be useful and beneficial given your attitudes.
***Tis not I that has issues...for I do NOT believe in CULTIC fairytales...nor do we appropriate other religions nomenclatures to ourselves like the Mormons do [i.e., the dogma of the IMMACULATE CONCEPTION that is promulgated by the Catholic Church and declared by Pope Pius IX in 1854 A.D.]. Again that dogma has NOTHING...but NOTHING to do with Christ's birth...only Mary's alleged freedom from the stain of Original sin at the MOMENT of her CONCEPTION...therefore, the IMMACULATE CONCEPTION [which, of course, I DON'T believe because I am NOT Catholic] is a false doctrine. You clearly don't know what you are talking about.
Too, the Mormon doctrine of IMMACULATE CONCEPTION concerning Christ is also FALSE for He was God from EVERLASTING and COULD NOT be born in SIN [and was WITHOUT sin even in His FLESH]. He "who knew no sin" [2 Corinthians 5:21] could NOT go to the cross for the sinner as an acceptable sacrifice for sin if He could NOT be "made sin for us" [2 Corinthians 5:21] and take upon Himself "the penalty" due US for those sins.
Your "christ" is NOT the Christ of the Scriptures...he is a CREATED being [NOT God] and, as such, NOT sinless...the product of sexual intercourse by your Father "god" [i.e., who has FLESH and BONES] and Mary. Your Father "god" is the "god" of this PLANET...the "god" of this world...to wit [SATAN]: "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the IMAGE of God, should shine unto them" [2 Corinthians 4:4].
Marchello