DE Sidious vs. Yoda

Continuing:

Like I said, either get Golden Age and read it, or STFU. I don't feel like debating with people who have no clue.

Again, how about you offer some contradictions to my points from the comics rather than throwing out your straw man argument about the narrator describing them as "godlike?" That seems to be your only point, and it's a weak one.

I personally, have no intention of going in circles with an individual who can not accept than an individual is possibly stronger than Exar Kun.

Show me where I've stated as fact that Exar Kun was the most powerful being ever to appear in the galaxy. That is not what we're arguing. I've stated near such as my opinion, and have shown plenty of evidence indicating that the beings believed by you and others to be more powerful than him are not as powerful as you think they are.

Stop jumping on your only wild card.

Take your own advice and stop seizing on the "godlike" quote.

Glentract:

The comics are a lower level canon than the movies though. It goes movies, reference books, novels and comics. Primary and secondary sources have nothing to do with it.

You're completely off-base. If I had a book about Mein Kampf that contradicts specific things written in Mein Kampf, which one is true?

Mein Kampf. It's called primary sources. They cannot be contradicted by reference works or secondary sources unless they use another primary source. Go to any academic and claim otherwise and they'll laugh in your face.

It doesn't matter if there were two or a billion stars. A supernova explosion expands faster than his ships maximum speed.

Excuse me, how about some proof? That's an assumption, and a poor one at that. The supernova didn't start instantly regardless, as shown in TSW, so because he was at maximum speed he had plenty of time to escape.

He escaped, but had to fly through the supernova to do that.

Again, proof? All sources contradict you.

Is that your only argument? I have higher level sources then you. Get over it.

Again, no you don't. But please, don't let facts get in the way of your argument.

high percentage of Atomic Scientist, the very people who invented the weapon, believed that the Atomic Bomb would set off a chain reaction that would destroy the planet. It didn't. Why do you think they have that little thing called test runs.

Any specifics on this? Proofs? Why would they test it if they believed such, anyway? They had already split the atom and that hadn't happened.

Exar learned in within minutes of looking at a holocron. She should have learned it within the months she studied them for.

Arrogance.

At Vodo's holocron. There is no instance of Aleema ever even touching a holocron. She learned what little she knew directly from Nadd's spirit.

Ignorance.

Items in KOTOR not affected by gameplay are canon.

What, according to you? Arbitrary and ridiculous. "Exar Kun's Light Battle Armor" my eye.

Terrorism is defined as, "the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimindation or coercion or instilling fear."

During none of those was force used exclusively against civilians.

Indeed? How many times must I state that civilians were butchered by Sith forces whenever they got the chance? The Cron cluster was destroyed because Exar Kun wanted the treasures of Ossus. That isn't war, that is terrorism.

They do. They are a higher level canon. They can. Period.

According to who? I've already answered this. It's ridiculous to assert that a reference book can contradict a primary source and be correct.

The Jedi were the generals, the leaders, the controllers of the Army. It was their army.

No, the jedi were the ground and air commanders of each battle. Only Palpatine truly controlled the army and decided when and where it would fight. It's the difference between tactical and strategic leadership. It was the Republic's army, not the Jedi's.

Nor did Exar.

Oh, I guess Exar didn't strike down Vodo Siosk Baas or Odun-Urr by himself. I must have been hallucinating when I read the comics that you don't own. Maybe the comics themselves don't exist!

Can you name all 10,000 PT Jedi? No, you can't, so they don't exist. Ha. I can use your logic too.

Can you name which Krath used the force? No, other than Satal and Aleema, you can't. They were the only important Krath, period.

Sure. All of them were vaporized. How did Vodo get word of this if that is true? We know that a supernova explodes faster than Sadows ship. Only some of the faster Republic ships were able to get out.

Because Vodo had access to a Sith holocron and recorded his own using it. Again, no we don't know that a supernova explodes faster than a ship can move. None of the Republic ships survived Sadow's initial strike to be vaporized by the supernova.

Pretty crappy excuse. The comic is wrong. Logic and science take presendence over it.

Oh, okay. I guess Star Wars is wrong, because logic and science would say the Force doesn't exist. Because we all know science can never be wrong.

Alright everyone, calm down! Lord Glentract has solved everything for us!

Oh. And Sidious wins, easily. 😉

Ah, and we dive into the insults when we start losing. Hm.

I'm not the one losing, you're the one that's spewing contextless points and not substantiating anything.

Nice and condescending. Actually it lends more credibility to me, whereas we don't know whether or not you're reading the material.

How does not having the material specifically on Naga Sadow (read Golden Age of the Sith) lend you any credibility? Please, don't prop yourself up if you aren't ready to get knocked down.

Vodo was able to restrain Ulic on Coruscant. Granted, this was with the help of other Jedi, but the same Jedi were present when Exar Kun walked into the Senate. (By the way, it's a misconception that Kun froze the Jedi, he only bothered with the hordes of non-force users present. I just looked over the material again). Obviously, Kun then is exponentially more powerful than Ulic, given they didn't even try the same technique on him.

Kinda hard to try a technique if they're frozen, don't you think?

Of course it is an assumption. Why do you think that I typed, "It would not surprise me?"

Second, it is another assumption that he had to maintain his spell. You do not know that, and can't possibly claim to. There's nothing in the comic indicating anything of the sort. And even if he did, that only increases his capabilities, since he was able to both hold the spell and easily defeat the Grandmaster of the Jedi.

How do you explain that?

So the Senate just conveniently didn't do anything while he was giving his little soliloquy to Vodo? They were awed by his presence and refused to move a muscle?

Are you attempting to argue now that Kun had more cummulative force ability than every individual in the chamber?

You need to brush up on context. Compare her with other Force users of the time period and she's a small fry, easily brushed away.

That and I reiterate: She knew very little Sith magic, and what she knew was only what Nadd decided to teach her.

It's not the number of techniques, it's the right techniques. She only has to know the right techniques in order to accomplish the ends.

Getting upset, are we?

Nope, only turning your bad logic against you.

Tell me something: How are Sadow's and Aleema's actions regarding the stars different in any way? Other than escaping the supernova, they are not. Therefore, they are comparable. You, who have zero evidence, are bringing up hypothetical "zOMG, WHAT IF THEY'RE NOT THE SAME SHIP?!!" when there's no indication of that whatsoever in either comic series, and other such arguments.

They are visually comparable. It is not, in effect, the exact same. And as Glentract said, you have yet to offer a feasible understanding about how Aleema was not able to get away. You even so much as conveniently painted yourself into a corner.

So, like Glentract has before, you seize upon one quote and instantly disparage all other evidence for its sake?

It's not an isolated quote. It's repeated reiterated and there are other modifiers used to express their power. Do you know the difference between repetition and hyperbole?

Oh wait, nevermind, you don't have the comics in front of you. Go back to arguing that Yoda is blue, I'd love to see you try that.

In fact, this "evidence" is all you have. You hop on the fact that Sadow didn't indicate a lot of abilities, he didn't repeatedly slash people up, and you use it to try to establish he's weak. You're the cardinal victim of the horrible logical fallacy of absence of proof is proof of absence.

Yes she is. Was Aleema among the most powerful force users of her time? No. She was a side character, a distraction for the Sith. Her only contribution was the Krath army and her illusions. She is in no way comparable to Revan or Malak. Aleema is a weakling, and she performed the same feat as Naga Sadow. Ergo, Naga Sadow's feat is less impressive.

Jaden Korr pushed aside a cargo cart. NJO Luke did the same thing in the NJO series. Does this indicate Jaden Korr is as powerful as Luke?

No. Assumption. You're once again assuming Naga Sadow is not powerful when it runs contrary to every evidence offered in GOLDEN AGE OF THE SITH, which, need I remind everyone, you have not read.

Because she was weaker than Exar, far weaker, at a time when Exar was weak himself. She was weak enough to be blasted away casually and knocked out.

And Maul was killed at a time when Obi-Wan was weak, what's your point? You still fail to substantiate the comparison. Again, quite with the overly grandiose language when describing your favorite character.

You're assuming then that Kun is not known to be a good pilot despite that he managed to invade Ossus before the Cron firestorm hit with his personal craft without taking so much as a scratch. It is reasonable to say that Kun is, as a Force user, at least an above-average pilot.

You also assume that Kun would never be able to make the shot, which is ludicrous.

When did I assume he never could? I said you can't assume he can. That's not the same thing.

If you are attempting to put words in my mouth just so you can make your pitiful argument look stronger, don't bother.

Really? Is that why Marka Ragnos never dared to attack the Republic? Is that why it's said that he knew the Sith were unprepared for war? Is that why Sadow is credited with bringing about the downfall of the Sith Empire?

Marka Ragnos not attacking the Republic was because he knew the Sith would split into factions beneath him, so even if he were to accomplish the feat, his own throne and life wasn't guaranteed. He said nothing of the sort of Naga Sadow being unable to accomplish the sort.

Again, you're comparing result instead of circumstance. Learn to compare circumstance, or it may as well be debating with a kid.

Never mind that the scrolls Kun studied hail from the Golden Age, and are every bit as reliable. The Sith inflate their own reputations, this is undeniable.

Yet somehow this doesn't apply to Kun. Right. 🙄

Kun studies scrolls from the Golden Age, ergo he's more powerful than the people who write them, right? Good luck proving that.

Aw, isn't that cute, you seize on the fact that two of my quotes are stated by Kun. Oh, but you ignore all the others.

I believe I addressed that.

Nevermind that nothing in the Golden Age contradicts what Kun said. Nevermind that there's no reason for Kun to be wrong, considering he'd spent months upon months reading what Sadow and his followers left behind. You have to believe that Sadow was a demigod.

Yup. I have to believe what the narrator tells me over what some fanboy wants to believe. Yeah, I think that's right.

I suggest you do the same. You haven't even read the comics, and you are attempting to argue out of your ass, and even go so far as telling others to "READ THE COMICS."

Here, here's something just for you: READ THE COMICS.

Who exactly is ignoring the narrator here? You want me to quote him again?

The narrator said it was Sadow's ship. When did I deny that. I asked can you prove it's the SPECIFIC ship he used when he detonated the star. You couldn't.

Why? Because if you bothered to read the post, you would notice I was being satirical of your crappy logic.

I love how you ignore all my points against your faulty logic and act like throwing quotes on them will cover it up. It doesn't. And you still should "READ THE COMICS."

Yes, it is. You're asking me to prove that it is the very same ship? This is an absolutely ridiculous question akin to asking someone if the Naga Sadow of the Golden Age comics is the same Naga Sadow mentioned in the Dark Lords and Sith War comics. The premise of your question is ludicrous, Illustrious. There's no indication that it is not the same ship, and seeing as Yavin IV was Sadow's final resting place, it goes without saying that his ship would be there as well.

Your logic not mine.

"Aleema and Sadow did the EXACT SAME THING, that must mean Sadow isn't as powerful as mentioned."

First off, the postulate isn't necessarily true, and secondly, the conclusion is contradicted by narration. I'm not arguing how powerful Sadow is by virtue of feats, I never said Kun didn't have more demonstrated, on-panel feats, I said the narrator repeatedly establishes Sadow as powerful, in fact, there's even a line referencing his power as titanic compared to the Jedi 5000 years later.

Sadow's ship did the work, ergo he's not as powerful as you think he is. Have you ever heard of dramatic hyperbole, Illustrious? What is godlike to someone that can't use the force, for instance? And who is to say that later Force users are not godlike and powerful?

So now you're bending the narrator's word to prove a point? Good job, good luck with that.

It's hardly hyperbole if it's repeated and corroborated with other adjectives and descriptions, now is it? And it works both ways, your precious Kun suffers from this same overblown hyperbole.

Even though this is a different argument, I believe this because I submit that Exar Kun was able to study more aspects of the culture and teachings than the ancients had access to.

Unfounded, unsubstantiated, unproven, worthless. Like most of your points. Next.

Illustrious made the second half of his post after mine and it might confuse someone, so I am reposting mine at the botton.

The problem with your assertion, Illustrious, is that you've offered no contradictions from the comics to anything I've argued. Show me the passage where it reads that Naga Sadow's power is what caused the core to be ripped from a star. Show me the passage where it reads that the ship Naga Sadow fled and destroyed a star on is not the same ship that Kun later found on Yavin IV.

You can't, because your assertions aren't there.

No, my problem is that you fail to prove how Kun is more powerful than Sadow, even though you claim that to be the case, when even the modifiers are less grandiose.

Again, how about you offer some contradictions to my points from the comics rather than throwing out your straw man argument about the narrator describing them as "godlike?" That seems to be your only point, and it's a weak one.

How about "titanic" and just plain old "awesome power."

Again, you don't even have the comics. It's easy to make bogus claims and attempt to refute them with irrelevent sources.

Show me where I've stated as fact that Exar Kun was the most powerful being ever to appear in the galaxy. That is not what we're arguing. I've stated near such as my opinion, and have shown plenty of evidence indicating that the beings believed by you and others to be more powerful than him are not as powerful as you think they are.

Again going back to the whole Yoda is blue thing. Semantics, my friend.

Take your own advice and stop seizing on the "godlike" quote.

Would you prefer me to pull out more modifiers and adjectives? Believe me, the way the author narrates the Ancient Golden Age Sith, there is no shortage. We can be here all day. But you haven't offered any substantiation besides more assumptions. You haven't corrected ANY of logical fallacy I have pointed out, except attempt to glaze over it with more quotes from an irrelevent source (one that only mentions Sadow).

Originally posted by IKC
Oh. And Sidious wins, easily. 😉

At least you got one things right. ✅

Originally posted by IKC
Glentract:

IKC:

Originally posted by IKC
You're completely off-base. If I had a book about Mein Kampf that contradicts specific things written in Mein Kampf, which one is true?

Mein Kampf. It's called primary sources. They cannot be contradicted by reference works or secondary sources unless they use another primary source. Go to any academic and claim otherwise and they'll laugh in your face.

Primary sources can be better, but they aren't always. I have the advantage as my source has the Lucasbooks seal on the back while the DLOTS comics do not. That alone makes the more credible.

It's also to bad that my source is also a primary source as the same person who wrote DLOTS wrote The New Essentail Guide to Chronolgy.

Originally posted by IKC
Excuse me, how about some proof? That's an assumption, and a poor one at that. The supernova didn't start instantly regardless, as shown in TSW, so because he was at maximum speed he had plenty of time to escape.

Yes, we do. Supernova explode at roughly 1/8 the speed of light. An X-wing, a much faster craft, has a top speed of 26,460 meters per second. The speed of light is ~300,000 meters per second. 300,000/8=37,500

A much faster craft than Naga's ship moves slower than the speed of a supernova.

I know you are going to say, "but it takes a minute or two for the star to explode". Not in this case. When Naga destroys the star in DLOTS, there is no delay, just instant boom.

Originally posted by IKC
Again, proof? All sources contradict you.

No, they don't, as shown above.

Originally posted by IKC
Again, no you don't. But please, don't let facts get in the way of your argument.

Yes, I do. The Official policy states that reference guides are higher level.

Originally posted by IKC
Any specifics on this? Proofs? Why would they test it if they believed such, anyway? They had already split the atom and that hadn't happened.

I know, they 'tested' it. The first time that they split a weapon though, they thought that world would be consumed in the explosion.

Originally posted by IKC
At Vodo's holocron. There is no instance of Aleema ever even touching a holocron. She learned what little she knew directly from Nadd's spirit.

Ignorance.

Sorry, "arrogance" wasn't at you, it was why Aleema just sat there and why Anakin didn't know his arms would get cut off. Don't take everything that could be an attack as one.

Remember the tome/book Satal stole from the Jedi Temple? She had that too. She also had all of the things that King Omnin had, which was quite a bit actually.

Originally posted by IKC
What, according to you? Arbitrary and ridiculous. "Exar Kun's Light Battle Armor" my eye.

The Lucas canon policy states that all things in games that do not directly contradict with higher levels of canon are indeed canon. There are situations when I hate the canon policy too, get over it.

Originally posted by IKC
Indeed? How many times must I state that civilians were butchered by Sith forces whenever they got the chance? The Cron cluster was destroyed because Exar Kun wanted the treasures of Ossus. That isn't war, that is terrorism.

I'm not saying there was no terrorism, but any attack with the intent of damaging an enemies military for war purposes is not terrorism, but war, instead.

Originally posted by IKC
According to who? I've already answered this. It's ridiculous to assert that a reference book can contradict a primary source and be correct.

According to the Lucas canon policy.

Originally posted by IKC
No, the jedi were the ground and air commanders of each battle. Only Palpatine truly controlled the army and decided when and where it would fight. It's the difference between tactical and strategic leadership. It was the Republic's army, not the Jedi's.

Palpatine had the final word, but effectively and for all practicality, it was the Jedi's Army.

Originally posted by IKC
Oh, I guess Exar didn't strike down Vodo Siosk Baas or Odun-Urr by himself. I must have been hallucinating when I read the comics that you don't own. Maybe the comics themselves don't exist!

Sure, why not. Exar killing Vodo or Odan was not a battle, it was a duel. There were no armies involved.

Originally posted by IKC
Can you name which Krath used the force? No, other than Satal and Aleema, you can't. They were the only important Krath, period.

Now we're getting somewhere. It is true that Aleema and Satal were the only Krath important enough to be named, but the same it true with 95% of the Jedi.

Originally posted by IKC
Because Vodo had access to a Sith holocron and recorded his own using it. Again, no we don't know that a supernova explodes faster than a ship can move. None of the Republic ships survived Sadow's initial strike to be vaporized by the supernova.

Yes, we do. Supernova explode at roughly 1/8 the speed of light. An X-wing, a much faster craft, has a top speed of 26,460 meters per second. The speed of light is ~300,000 meters per second. 300,000/8=37,500

A much faster craft than Naga's ship moves slower than the speed of a supernova.

I know you are going to say, "but it takes a minute or two for the star to explode". Not in this case. When Naga destroys the star in DLOTS, there is no delay, just instant boom.

Originally posted by IKC
Oh, okay. I guess Star Wars is wrong, because logic and science would say the Force doesn't exist. Because we all know science can never be wrong.

In our universe, the force doesn't exist. In the SW universe, it does. That is a bad analogy. Until something solidly disproves physics in SW, they exist.

Originally posted by IKC
Alright everyone, calm down! Lord Glentract has solved everything for us!

You're welcome.

I'd like to point out that the New Essential Guide has a "Darth Kreia" in there somewhere, which was later noted to be incorrect.

The reason that it says that though is to provide readers with a distinction between Atris Taya and Kreia Traya. It's one of those things that is technically incorrect, but makes it more practical to read.

Was it? I didn't realize it had both entries.

Yeah, it does. pg. 24 "Darth Sion, Darth Kreia, Darth Traya, and Darth Nihilus were amoung the many to take advantage of the Republic's inability to safeguard it's holdings after the Second Sith War.

Illustrious:

I read over your response and the tedium of responding to every point is not worth it until you can answer my challenge.

Show me where my arguments are contradicted by The Golden Age of the Sith or The Fall of the Sith Empire. I asked this before and you didn't offer a scrap of evidence.

The reason I can argue on them is because I read a fairly detailed summary about them when I couldn't find either at my local bookstores.

Answer my challenge and then we'll continue. Otherwise, you're simply debating without evidence.

Glentract:

Primary sources can be better, but they aren't always. I have the advantage as my source has the Lucasbooks seal on the back while the DLOTS comics do not. That alone makes the more credible.

Oh, so the comics themselves, which created the stories, aren't credible sources on these stories? Right. That's logical.

(Oh, by the way, Dark Lords of the Sith has that precious seal you think to be so important.)

I know you are going to say, "but it takes a minute or two for the star to explode". Not in this case. When Naga destroys the star in DLOTS, there is no delay, just instant boom.

No there isn't. He wrenched the core just as Aleema did. Otherwise he would have killed himself along with the Republic craft. He escaped the supernova because it took some time for it to begin. That's all. There is no indication whatsoever that Sadow held back the explosive power of a star. He ran, and for good reason.

Yes, I do. The Official policy states that reference guides are higher level.

Please, show me this ethereal "official policy." And I'll laugh again when you claim that reference books summarizing a story are more accurate than the book they reference.

Remember the tome/book Satal stole from the Jedi Temple? She had that too. She also had all of the things that King Omnin had, which was quite a bit actually.

She did not have "all the things that King Ommin had," for one, because most of it was either in Nadd's tomb on Dxun or with the Jedi (Ulic finds Freedon's amulet and Nadd speaks to him).

The Ketos did have a book of sith spells from Coruscant, yes. And they were unable to use it until Nadd introduced them to the ways of the Sith. (It reads that they stole the book from the Galactic Museum, by the way, not the Jedi Temple.) Only Satal and Aleema were instructed by Nadd, the other Krath were irrelevant.

The Lucas canon policy states that all things in games that do not directly contradict with higher levels of canon are indeed canon. There are situations when I hate the canon policy too, get over it.

Your original point was about Krath battle armor. Even if it is canon, which I believe it isn't, your point is still incorrect. The Krath was formed from the sons and daughters of the Tetan Royalty. They were the leaders, and they had the military in their pocket. Just because the armor was named for them doesn't mean that they were an army of Dark Side warriors. Indeed, TOTJ shows that they certainly were not.

I'm not saying there was no terrorism, but any attack with the intent of damaging an enemies military for war purposes is not terrorism, but war, instead.

It was more piracy than war, Glentract. You can't say that raiding dozens of helpless space stations and shipyards represents a campaign to conquer the galaxy. The Sith neither captured nor held any territories in the entire conflict. At the end, they tried with the Mandalorian attack on Onderon, and failed miserably.

Palpatine had the final word, but effectively and for all practicality, it was the Jedi's Army.

Again, that's ridiculous. The clones fought for the Republic, not the Jedi, and it was to the Republic that they answered. The Jedi did not own, did not pay, and did not direct the movements of the Grand Army of the Republic.

Sure, why not. Exar killing Vodo or Odan was not a battle, it was a duel. There were no armies involved.

First, the fight with Odan could hardly be called a duel. It was more of an instakill. And my point, if I have to remind you, was that Aleema Keto was a weakling that never won a battle, a fight, or anything else against a Force user. One could argue that she won "battles" of manipulation with Ulic, and that's fine, but that doesn't make her strong in the Force. She isn't.

Now we're getting somewhere. It is true that Aleema and Satal were the only Krath important enough to be named, but the same it true with 95% of the Jedi.

And? One cannot have battles between unnamed entity X and entity jedi Y, or the like. I've already maintained that Satal and Aleema were the only Krath inducted into the Sith teachings by Freedon Nadd. TOTJ describes their book of Sith spells as requiring that one be a member of the Sith to use it. Ergo, the other Krath were probably, A) not Force sensitive or B) too weak to matter to either Satal or Aleema. Even if they were powerful, they were not inducted into the Sith and couldn't use the spells of the book.

In our universe, the force doesn't exist. In the SW universe, it does. That is a bad analogy. Until something solidly disproves physics in SW, they exist.

It's not a bad analogy, Glentract. You cannot deny with all the evidence I've given that it is Sadow's weaponry, not the Force user using it, that rips the cores from stars and causes them to go supernova. It's stated repeatedly throughout TOTJ. In no way does it indicate that it is in fact powered by the Force user.

Therefore: Sadow's greatest feat, the destruction of a star, is not due to his force power, but his genius as an inventor.

My other conclusion is that later generations may very well be as strong or stronger than the ancient Sith, because there are no feats that they performed that were not duplicated or even surpassed, sometimes by the same people. These later generations include beings like Exar Kun, Freedon Nadd, DE Sidious, NJO Luke, etc.

Originally posted by IKC
Glentract:

IKC:

Originally posted by IKC
Oh, so the comics themselves, which created the stories, aren't credible sources on these stories? Right. That's logical.

(Oh, by the way, Dark Lords of the Sith has that precious seal you think to be so important.)

My point is that stories can be revised. The same guy wrote both series.

And, the DLOTS comics have the Dark Horse Seal, not the LucasBooks Seal.

Originally posted by IKC
No there isn't. He wrenched the core just as Aleema did. Otherwise he would have killed himself along with the Republic craft. He escaped the supernova because it took some time for it to begin. That's all. There is no indication whatsoever that Sadow held back the explosive power of a star. He ran, and for good reason.

It didn't take any time on the order of two minutes. It goes from some guy saying the stars are becoming unstable, to some guy screaming for them to pull up, to a fireball.

There is indication. He could not have fled fast enough to get away. It did not take a significant amount of time either, maybe a few seconds. I don't see any indication that it took several minutes.

Originally posted by IKC
Please, show me this ethereal "official policy." And I'll laugh again when you claim that reference books summarizing a story are more accurate than the book they reference.

Go google it yourself, I don't have the time to go find it for you.

Originally posted by IKC
She did not have "all the things that King Ommin had," for one, because most of it was either in Nadd's tomb on Dxun or with the Jedi (Ulic finds Freedon's amulet and Nadd speaks to him).

The guide says, "Satal Keto and Aleema fled back to the Empress Teta System, bearing a wealth of Sith Artifacts." Seems pretty straight forward to me.

Originally posted by IKC
The Ketos did have a book of sith spells from Coruscant, yes. And they were unable to use it until Nadd introduced them to the ways of the Sith. (It reads that they stole the book from the Galactic Museum, by the way, not the Jedi Temple.) Only Satal and Aleema were instructed by Nadd, the other Krath were irrelevant.

Wait a second. I thought you kept saying there were no other Krath?

The Ketos actually were able to read it when Nadd gave them a Sith Amulet. You are correct, it was a museum, not the Temple(them being able to steal from the Temple did seem rather strange to me).

The statement you have made is like saying, "only Luke was trained by Yoda, making the other new Jedi irrelevent." Not so. There are other methods of teaching that they had and they could have learned from the Ketos themselves.

You are also wrong by saying the Ketos were the only notable Krath because Ulic was a Krath for some time.

Originally posted by IKC
Your original point was about Krath battle armor. Even if it is canon, which I believe it isn't, your point is still incorrect. The Krath was formed from the sons and daughters of the Tetan Royalty. They were the leaders, and they had the military in their pocket. Just because the armor was named for them doesn't mean that they were an army of Dark Side warriors. Indeed, TOTJ shows that they certainly were not.

Much of the system didn't even follow them, there was a revolt. The Krath also had mutiple Temples. Are you going to tell me that they have mutiple Temples for only two people?

Originally posted by IKC
It was more piracy than war, Glentract. You can't say that raiding dozens of helpless space stations and shipyards represents a campaign to conquer the galaxy. The Sith neither captured nor held any territories in the entire conflict. At the end, they tried with the Mandalorian attack on Onderon, and failed miserably.

Shipyards generally aren't helpless. Look at the Bilbringi Shipyards, for example. Thrawn was going to need a significant portion of his fleet to destroy them. Or the Mon Calamari Shipyards. Only the World Devastators were able to cause significant damage to them. Helpless indeed.

Originally posted by IKC
Again, that's ridiculous. The clones fought for the Republic, not the Jedi, and it was to the Republic that they answered. The Jedi did not own, did not pay, and did not direct the movements of the Grand Army of the Republic.

The Jedi bought the Army. It was created by a Jedi. Sidious, like the US President, had/has ultimate control, but effectively the Generals and Commanders control it. The Jedi were those people.

Originally posted by IKC
First, the fight with Odan could hardly be called a duel. It was more of an instakill. And my point, if I have to remind you, was that Aleema Keto was a weakling that never won a battle, a fight, or anything else against a Force user. One could argue that she won "battles" of manipulation with Ulic, and that's fine, but that doesn't make her strong in the Force. She isn't.

If the fight can hardly be called a duel, I have no idea why YOU called it a battle.

My point is that Exar didn't either. You're calling Aleema weak for doing the same thing Exar did. That makes no sense.

Originally posted by IKC
And? One cannot have battles between unnamed entity X and entity jedi Y, or the like. I've already maintained that Satal and Aleema were the only Krath inducted into the Sith teachings by Freedon Nadd. TOTJ describes their book of Sith spells as requiring that one be a member of the Sith to use it. Ergo, the other Krath were probably, A) not Force sensitive or B) too weak to matter to either Satal or Aleema. Even if they were powerful, they were not inducted into the Sith and couldn't use the spells of the book.

There were other things than that one book. Reguardless, any force user could use the techniques in the book, just not read it without an Amulet.

Like I said above, just because the other Krath weren't trained by Nadd doesn't automatically make them weak.

Originally posted by IKC
It's not a bad analogy, Glentract. You cannot deny with all the evidence I've given that it is Sadow's weaponry, not the Force user using it, that rips the cores from stars and causes them to go supernova. It's stated repeatedly throughout TOTJ. In no way does it indicate that it is in fact powered by the Force user.

Therefore: Sadow's greatest feat, the destruction of a star, is not due to his force power, but his genius as an inventor.

I've has proven that there is no way that the ship could have done it.

I am still waiting for my answer to the follwing:

The reason you have failed to show how the ship did that is because it is impossible. Completely impossible.

The Imperial Star Destroyer was stated as the most powerful ship ever(this was as of the moment it was first built.)

The mass of a star is 198,892,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 kilograms. Yes, that is a lot.

The core comprises ~60% of the suns mass. That is 119,335,200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 kilograms. Still, that is a lot.

To move that at a rate of 1 meter per-second would require 119,335,200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 watts of energy.

The energy out put of an entire star is LESS than that(remember that the energy output of one star is that maximum for any ship prior to the Imperial Star Destroyer).

Incase you are wondering what the energy output of a star(the sun) is, here you go, 3,860,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.

119,335,200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 / 3,860,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 = 30.9158549

So, even if the star was moved at a measily one meter persecond, it would require the power of thirty Imperial Star Destroyers to move it. Since NO ship prior to the Imperial Star Destroyer was able to harness the power of even a single star, it is impossible for any ship prior to the launch of the Executor to produce that energy on it's own.

Remeber that the following equations use a speed of only one meter per second to as the rate that the star was moving at. The true number is thousands of times higher than that, as it was moving faster than the Republic ships could get away at.

In short, there is NO POSSIBLE WAY for the ship to have been the driving factor in moving that star. ONE HUNDRED PERCENT COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE! NO POSSIBLE JUSTIFICATION AT ALL!

Originally posted by IKC
My other conclusion is that later generations may very well be as strong or stronger than the ancient Sith, because there are no feats that they performed that were not duplicated or even surpassed, sometimes by the same people. These later generations include beings like Exar Kun, Freedon Nadd, DE Sidious, NJO Luke, etc.

Specify.

My point is that stories can be revised. The same guy wrote both series.

Stories are revised when the story is re-released. The story has not been re-released. Ergo, the story is not "revised" and the reference book is incorrect when it contradicts the source.

And, the DLOTS comics have the Dark Horse Seal, not the LucasBooks Seal.

Glentract, I'm staring at the back of the Dark Lords of the Sith book right now. The Lucas Books seal is screaming at me. It's there, trust me. It may not be on back of each individual comic book that was first released, but it is on the back of the compiled edition.

It didn't take any time on the order of two minutes. It goes from some guy saying the stars are becoming unstable, to some guy screaming for them to pull up, to a fireball.

Because that's Sadow's attack, Glentract, not the supernova, identical to when Aleema attacked the Jedi in the Cron cluster (her only victory against force users, I found one!). They didn't have time either, because that was the core-throwing, not the supernova. Those are the two stages to the weapon's use.

Go google it yourself, I don't have the time to go find it for you.

I don't need to see it. Your assertion is that reference works (think Cliff's Notes) contradict primary sources (think the literature on which the notes are based) and that the reference works are correct when they do. It's a ridiculous assertion, Glentract.

The guide says, "Satal Keto and Aleema fled back to the Empress Teta System, bearing a wealth of Sith Artifacts." Seems pretty straight forward to me.

So it does to me, that you're using hyperbole. "A wealth of Sith artifacts" does not equal "all of the things that King Omnin had, which was quite a bit actually."

The statement you have made is like saying, "only Luke was trained by Yoda, making the other new Jedi irrelevent." Not so. There are other methods of teaching that they had and they could have learned from the Ketos themselves.

Incorrect, because DLOTS states explicitly that only one inducted into the Sith can use the spells of the book. There is no instance in any part of TOTJ that these other, minor Krath use Sith magic. Therefore, they are unimportant, even more so because they aren't named.

You are also wrong by saying the Ketos were the only notable Krath because Ulic was a Krath for some time.

Qel-Droma was never a Krath. Ulic was a Jedi, then fell to the dark side partly due to Sith poison given to him by Satal Keto, and became a dark jedi. He then became a Sith Lord when Exar Kun confronted him and the unnamed Dark Lord's spirit proclaimed them both to be Lords of the Sith.

Much of the system didn't even follow them, there was a revolt. The Krath also had mutiple Temples. Are you going to tell me that they have mutiple Temples for only two people?

Excuse me, but show me where the Krath ever had temples. I don't accept that statement. It's nowhere in either comic series.

By the way, they crushed the revolts in the Tetan systems with overwhelming force, given how the military was in their pocket and they had Aleema's illusions assisting them. It even shows the battle at Koros Major, the last planet to hold out against the Krath coup.

Shipyards generally aren't helpless. Look at the Bilbringi Shipyards, for example. Thrawn was going to need a significant portion of his fleet to destroy them. Or the Mon Calamari Shipyards. Only the World Devastators were able to cause significant damage to them. Helpless indeed.

Yes, let's compare a time where there were two governments warring for control of the galaxy to a time where the Republic hadn't been challenged by a major power for a thousand years. Good comparison, Glentract.

The Sith War describes the attack on the shipyards of Foerost, said to be "one of the oldest and successful large-scale orbital construction sites," which produced "a steady stream of advanced warships for the fleet of the Galactic Republic."

One which you would think would be well defended, no? But it wasn't, Glentract. It was captured easily by the combined Tetan and Mandalorian fighters in a fight that, the comic indicates, lasted only minutes. There was no fleet defending it.

The Jedi bought the Army. It was created by a Jedi. Sidious, like the US President, had/has ultimate control, but effectively the Generals and Commanders control it. The Jedi were those people.

Really? You actually think Sifo Dyas ordered its construction? Let me ask you something, with whose money did the Jedi "buy" the army, if your assertion is correct? Jedi have nothing but what the Republic grants them. The Republic bought the army, it was the Grand Army of the Republic. The Republic controlled its movements, paid for its equipment and supplies, and decided when and where it was to be used. The Jedi did not. The Jedi were tactical commanders, not strategic.

What you're saying is akin to suggesting that the generals and admirals of the US military can declare war, or redeploy troops. That's not the case at all.

My point is that Exar didn't either. You're calling Aleema weak for doing the same thing Exar did. That makes no sense.

Pardon me, but when did Exar Kun ever lose a battle, a fight, or anything of the sort to another living force user? Was Exar Kun ever stopped in his tracks by the likes of Nomi Sunrider? No. On the contrary, he treated her and the rest of the Jedi on her level as not being important enough to dirty his hands with. He virtually ignored them all. Even when Sylvar, the mate of Crado, repeatedly confronted him, he paid little heed to her, eventually sending a Massassi to slap her away on Ossus (she was armed with a lightsaber).

He did lost twice in his lifetime. Once as a padawan against Vodo, and again against the combined might of all the Jedi in the galaxy. Please tell me how he and Aleema are comparable at all.

There were other things than that one book. Reguardless, any force user could use the techniques in the book, just not read it without an Amulet.

That's not entirely accurate. Exar Kun was able to speak and understand the Sith tongue before he wore Sadow's amulet. And the description of the book in DLOTS reads: "A source of long-forgotten power, the book can only be used by a Sith follower." Read: only. Not anyone can just pick it up and, provided they know ancient Sith, use it.

Like I said above, just because the other Krath weren't trained by Nadd doesn't automatically make them weak.

Yes it does, combined with the fact that they never appear again in TOTJ and are never shown using Sith magic. They're never even mentioned again. They're weak and irrelevant to the story.

I am still waiting for my answer to the follwing:

I've already answered it, Glentract. Your proofs regarding a star destroyer are irrelevant. It is obvious that Sadow's ship was more powerful than a Star Destroyer, because it performed a feat that a Star Destroyer could never do. You don't seem to understand that the ship doesn't use conventional energy. Its weapon is powered by Sith magic (not its user's). I'll direct you to the quotes above by Aleema Keto and Exar Kun.

Specify.

Specify what? The feats? Naga's feats, both of star-ripping and illusions, are replicated perfectly by Aleema Keto, a relative weakling by all respects. Kun's feats are already well known, freezing the entire Senate among the more impressive. I've not read NJO but I understand that Luke performs feats on this level. DE Sidious can conjure force storms and teleport someone around the galaxy. Do I have to go on? You know all of this.

I have to intercede here, for a moment to make a point.

Glentract, you're using Earth-related physics as a large portion of your argument. But I am inclined to believe IKC here. Our physics, and its laws, are not necessarily followed completely by the Star Wars universe. IKC is right. The Force, speeders, and fighters are some of the many things that defy physics. You can't necessarily use the knowledge of physics that we have, and expect them to always be valid.

Just thought I'd make that clear.

Continue.

Damn IKC, I havent found the time to read all this(Im lazy...) but from the looks of it you know how to debate.

Originally posted by Escape81
I have to intercede here, for a moment to make a point.

Glentract, you're using Earth-related physics as a large portion of your argument. But I am inclined to believe IKC here. Our physics, and its laws, are not necessarily followed completely by the Star Wars universe. IKC is right. The Force, speeders, and fighters are some of the many things that defy physics. You can't necessarily use the knowledge of physics that we have, and expect them to always be valid.

Just thought I'd make that clear.

Continue.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Escape81
I have to intercede here, for a moment to make a point.

Glentract, you're using Earth-related physics as a large portion of your argument. But I am inclined to believe IKC here. Our physics, and its laws, are not necessarily followed completely by the Star Wars universe. IKC is right. The Force, speeders, and fighters are some of the many things that defy physics. You can't necessarily use the knowledge of physics that we have, and expect them to always be valid.

Just thought I'd make that clear.

Continue.

Escape, there is no way you can abandon physics without abandoning logic. It's one of the fundamental branches of human knowledge.

Also note that physics don't just apply to Earth. They apply to all of the universe, which Star Wars is a part of. Remember, Star Wars is supposed to have taken place in our own universe a long time ago, in a distant galaxy.

Also, please name on instance when physics has been violated in Star Wars.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Escape, there is no way you can abandon physics without abandoning logic. It's one of the fundamental branches of human knowledge.

Also note that physics don't just apply to Earth. They apply to all of the universe, which Star Wars is a part of. Remember, Star Wars is supposed to have taken place in our own universe a long time ago, in a distant galaxy.

Also, please name on instance when physics has been violated in Star Wars.

1.Yes in our world, but our knowledge of physics cant be accurately applied to star wars(A place where people can shoot lightning from their fingertips)

2.What?...Yeah your right Glentract our universe and the SWU are one and the same, nevermind the SWU purposely defys logical thinking to give it a fantasy epic feel...Im sure we will learn how to use the force in time.

3.To name 1 of 1000 instances, Luke can fly.