DE Sidious vs. Yoda

Originally posted by IKC
Illustrious:

I read over your response and the tedium of responding to every point is not worth it until you can answer my challenge.

Show me where my arguments are contradicted by The Golden Age of the Sith or The Fall of the Sith Empire. I asked this before and you didn't offer a scrap of evidence.

The reason I can argue on them is because I read a fairly detailed summary about them when I couldn't find either at my local bookstores.

Answer my challenge and then we'll continue. Otherwise, you're simply debating without evidence.

No, I didn't bring evidence to the contrary, I attacked your faulty logic. And so far, you have done NOTHING to even attempt to indicate your logic is even remotely credible. Until you establish to me you can even debate, why should I waste my time? I haven't seen you make a coherent point or concede one during our entire dicussion.

You are effectively saying this:

"Aleema Keto did the same thing Naga Sadow did, therefore he's weaker than we believed."

Really? How does the postulate support the conclusion? It doesn't. Faulty Logic. By your own account, if Exar went on that ship, the same result would have happened. So is Exar weaker because Aleema can do the same thing? Hardly. The issue is that all you did was move Sadow back into the "unknown quantity" pile. And guess what? That's where he, and the rest of the Ancient Sith, were to begin with!

Good job, you can move around in circles. Wooh, such skillful and masterful debating.

Then your next point:

"Naga Sadow is overrated, he's not "godlike" despite the comics (that I have not read) say this, I believe Kun is greater than him.

Again, awesome logic. (Sarcasm if you couldn't tell.)

So you're effectively telling me that some Kun fanboy who has read Kun's comics will be far more knowledgable about it then NAGA SADOW'S comics talking about... Naga Sadow.

You're also saying we should believe you in saying Sadow is overrated when you assume on an unknown, instead of believing the author when he makes many, many grandiose assessments of Sadow's power. What next? You're going to develop a Supershadow complex and believe yourself more important than Lucas? Please. You have to substantiate this claim, not try to prove an assumption with... more assumptions.

"Exar Kun did stuff no one else did, even though he GAINED THE KNOWLEDGE FROM THE ANCIENT SITH!"

Oh right. So because we did not see an Ancient Sith Lord walk into a room and freeze a bunch of non-force-sensitives, we are to assume Exar is the only individual that can, right?

Yes, because absence of proof is definitely proof of absence (again a false assumption for those slow witted individuals).

So you mean that Kun, who learned these ancient techniques from the remnants of the Ancient Sith has techniques they don't have? So if I learn Greek, I know more Greek than Greek linguists? That's what you're trying to assert, and it doesn't add up. Substantiate, or don't bother.

"Naga Sadow's power comes from his weapons, not his person!"

Where does it say this? All you proved was that he has powerful weapons. Where can you prove he was a weakling? Again, you're assuming off an unknown -- an unknown, need I remind you again, that the narrator repeatedly holds in very high regard.

Please, you're done. Cooked. Stick a fork in you. Up the river without a paddle. Floating down piss creek. Staring down the end of a rifle. Hopeless. Lost. You've "substantiated" bad logic with more bad logic, and when I point it out, you run behind "zOMG I HAVE IRRELEVENT SOURCE MATERIAL!!!11!"

Like I said, start debating, or STFU. You're starting to remind me of ER, where's that guy again?

ER left because Revan isn't more powerful than Ragnos and he couldn't take it.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
1.Yes in our world, but our knowledge of physics cant be accurately applied to star wars(A place where people can shoot lightning from their fingertips)

2.What?...Yeah your right Glentract our universe and the SWU are one and the same, nevermind the SWU purposely defys logical thinking to give it a fantasy epic feel...Im sure we will learn how to use the force in time.

3.To name 1 of 1000 instances, Luke can fly.

I suggest you go pick up a copy of The Science of Star Wars. It will answer you questions quite well.

Anyway,

1. Zero-Point Energy. It's the energy field that exist everywhere. The Force could very well be this same thing(I'm not saying that I believe the Force is real, but that is could scientifically exist).

2. Zero-Point Energy, once again. That is all they are doind, calling on an energy field that exist everywhere in the universe.

3. Luke is doing it by calling upon the energy located in the Zero-Point energy field to levitate himself.

No, I didn't bring evidence to the contrary, I attacked your faulty logic. And so far, you have done NOTHING to even attempt to indicate your logic is even remotely credible. Until you establish to me you can even debate, why should I waste my time? I haven't seen you make a coherent point or concede one during our entire dicussion.

Illustrious, arguments are not made and won using solely debating skill. Until you can bring evidence that actually refutes me, then my points stand.

Really? How does the postulate support the conclusion? It doesn't. Faulty Logic. By your own account, if Exar went on that ship, the same result would have happened. So is Exar weaker because Aleema can do the same thing? Hardly. The issue is that all you did was move Sadow back into the "unknown quantity" pile. And guess what? That's where he, and the rest of the Ancient Sith, were to begin with!

If Exar went on the ship and performed the same feat, the same result would have happened, which is that our assumptions of Naga Sadow's force power, and that of the rest of the ancient Sith, would have dropped, because that is the most impressive feat that the Ancient Sith have. But because Aleema Keto did it, my impression of their power dropped even further, because Aleema Keto is nowhere near the level of Exar Kun, who has performed feats that have been unmatched by anyone. Others I have mentioned, like DE Sidious and NJO Luke, have performed similar displays of force power. This, in my opinion, places them at least equal with the ancient Sith.

So you're effectively telling me that some Kun fanboy who has read Kun's comics will be far more knowledgable about it then NAGA SADOW'S comics talking about... Naga Sadow.

I seem to be running rings around you in the evidence department, Illustrious, since you refuse to enlighten us with anything besides hyperbolic semiquotations from the narrator. All you seem to do is call me names, which isn't a sign of masterful debating skill.

You're also saying we should believe you in saying Sadow is overrated when you assume on an unknown, instead of believing the author when he makes many, many grandiose assessments of Sadow's power. What next? You're going to develop a Supershadow complex and believe yourself more important than Lucas? Please. You have to substantiate this claim, not try to prove an assumption with... more assumptions.

Grandiose statements that are unsubstantiated by the story and Sadow's actions. In other words, evidence. Basically, the author is saying "zOMG HE'S POWERFUL" without giving us any clues as to why. Therefore, by showing that the feats that are shown in Golden Age and Fall of the Sith Empire were later replicated without difficulty, our opinions of their power that are based on real evidence fall back to earth, where they should have been in the first place.

Oh right. So because we did not see an Ancient Sith Lord walk into a room and freeze a bunch of non-force-sensitives, we are to assume Exar is the only individual that can, right?

So you mean that Kun, who learned these ancient techniques from the remnants of the Ancient Sith has techniques they don't have? So if I learn Greek, I know more Greek than Greek linguists? That's what you're trying to assert, and it doesn't add up. Substantiate, or don't bother.

Kun may well be the only one that could perform such a feat on the level that he did. He had to freeze many thousands or tens of thousands of senators, not to mention their guards. To argue that ancient Sith Lord X could do the very same thing is to argue out of ignorance, because we don't know. Some evidence, however, points to the contrary, as they could have merely performed this act on the Republic fleets and won many battles that way.

Kun, because he had a vast accumulation of knowledge from many sources, may have had a greater variety of techniques than certain Ancient Sith. As an analogy, take someone who spends ten years traveling around the United States, for example, learning all that he can from each region as quickly as he can before moving on. In comparison, we have someone who has lived in a single area all of his life, say Florida. The one who has lived in Florida all his life is going to know a good deal more about it than the traveler, but he will have less general knowledge of the country than the traveler and less knowledge about all the other regions.

This analogy is only inaccurate inasmuch as the Ancient Sith guarded their secrets with lethal force while they were alive, and some even after death. Therefore, it would have been even harder to learn from fellow Sith during the Golden Age unless you were fortunate enough to be an apprentice.

Where does it say this? All you proved was that he has powerful weapons. Where can you prove he was a weakling? Again, you're assuming off an unknown -- an unknown, need I remind you again, that the narrator repeatedly holds in very high regard.

Please, you're done. Cooked. Stick a fork in you. Up the river without a paddle. Floating down piss creek. Staring down the end of a rifle. Hopeless. Lost. You've "substantiated" bad logic with more bad logic, and when I point it out, you run behind "zOMG I HAVE IRRELEVENT SOURCE MATERIAL!!!11!"

Like I said, start debating, or STFU. You're starting to remind me of ER, where's that guy again?

Naga Sadow is not a weakling, Illustrious, but he's not as powerful as you make him out to be. He was not a demi-god, and could have been challenged and beaten by a handful of Force users that came after him.

Illustrious, if your only evidence is that the author repeatedly makes overblown references to their power, then you're not going to win this. Give me more.

Originally posted by IKC
Stories are revised when the story is re-released. The story has not been re-released. Ergo, the story is not "revised" and the reference book is incorrect when it contradicts the source.

It is revised when it is re-written by the same author. If they like how it turned out before, then they wouldn't change it. The stories, as they are told in the reference guides are a primary source and a more recent source, making them better to go by.

Originally posted by IKC
Glentract, I'm staring at the back of the Dark Lords of the Sith book right now. The Lucas Books seal is screaming at me. It's there, trust me. It may not be on back of each individual comic book that was first released, but it is on the back of the compiled edition.

Whatever you say.

Originally posted by IKC
Because that's Sadow's attack, Glentract, not the supernova, identical to when Aleema attacked the Jedi in the Cron cluster (her only victory against force users, I found one!). They didn't have time either, because that was the core-throwing, not the supernova. Those are the two stages to the weapon's use.

I'm not sure exactly what you are saying here. In your next post could you please expand upon this.

From what I can tell though, you're saying that they did the same thing. They may have, but consider it like this, Aleema's took a long time to detonate. Naga's has never displayed such a thing. It happened almost instantaneously. There was at most a ten second delay. This is not enough time for Naga to have escaped. Also note that the star begins going supernova as soon as Naga begins the process.

Originally posted by IKC
I don't need to see it. Your assertion is that reference works (think Cliff's Notes) contradict primary sources (think the literature on which the notes are based) and that the reference works are correct when they do. It's a ridiculous assertion, Glentract.

Both are equal sources since they are authored by the same person. Remember that the comics

Originally posted by IKC
So it does to me, that you're using hyperbole. "A wealth of Sith artifacts" does not equal "all of the things that King Omnin had, which was quite a bit actually."

I did use a hyperbole, but the quote that she had a wealth of Sith Artifacts in unchanged by me in anyway. No hyperbole present.

Originally posted by IKC
Incorrect, because DLOTS states explicitly that only one inducted into the Sith can use the spells of the book. There is no instance in any part of TOTJ that these other, minor Krath use Sith magic. Therefore, they are unimportant, even more so because they aren't named.

Just like the 9,900 of the PT Jedi who fought in the Clone Wars but never recieved a name? Or how about 99% of the Mandalorians that fought in the Great Sith War. They aren't named, so they don't exist. Oh yes, and out of all of the trillions of Yuuzhan Vong, only fifty or so have names, so the rest never accomplished anything and are completely powerless.

It's bad logic on your part. Lack of a name does not mean that a character did not do anything important or that the person was not powerful.

Also, in the new Essential Guide to Chronology, it says, "Satal, Aleema, and their friends had dabbled into Sith Magic,amusing themselves with Artifacts recovered by the Jedi Odan-Urr during the Great Hyperspace War a thousand years earlier." No longer can you deny that there were other Krath who practiced Sith Magic.

Added to that, starwars.com states(under Ulic's profile incase you want to personally check), "Satal Keto and his cousin Aleema would go on to forge the Krath, a secret society of social elites in the Empress Teta system, who dabbled with the dark side and Sith magic."

That says that there were mutiple Krath who used the Force.

Originally posted by IKC
Qel-Droma was never a Krath. Ulic was a Jedi, then fell to the dark side partly due to Sith poison given to him by Satal Keto, and became a dark jedi. He then became a Sith Lord when Exar Kun confronted him and the unnamed Dark Lord's spirit proclaimed them both to be Lords of the Sith.

Ulic was a Krath infact. The Essential Guide to Characters says, "He(Ulic) served alongside the Sith Lord, Exar Kun, but commanded his own Krath sects."

Added to that, The New Essential Guide To Chronology states, "Instead, Ulic killed Keto in a great duel, and then took his place alongside Aleema as the new ruler of the Krath."

Ulic was both a Krath and a Sith.

Originally posted by IKC
Excuse me, but show me where the Krath ever had temples. I don't accept that statement. It's nowhere in either comic series.

The New Essential Guide to Chronology states it. pg. 17, I think. It may be on page 18 or 19.

Originally posted by IKC
By the way, they crushed the revolts in the Tetan systems with overwhelming force, given how the military was in their pocket and they had Aleema's illusions assisting them. It even shows the battle at Koros Major, the last planet to hold out against the Krath coup.

As seen on mutiple occasions, civilians can do a GREAT job at defeating the Army. Look at the Sixth Battle of Coruscant. The unarmed civilain Shamed Ones did more damage to the Yuuzhan Vong Army than did the Republic strike teams. Same thing aboard the Seed Ship.

Originally posted by IKC
Yes, let's compare a time where there were two governments warring for control of the galaxy to a time where the Republic hadn't been challenged by a major power for a thousand years. Good comparison, Glentract.

Haha. So you are saying that they INCREASED protection of there planets when there was no longer a threat? You logic is BACKWARDS. I hope that was a typo, becuase that is easily one of the dumbest things I have ever heard on KMC.

Originally posted by IKC
The Sith War describes the attack on the shipyards of Foerost, said to be "one of the oldest and successful large-scale orbital construction sites," which produced "a steady stream of advanced warships for the fleet of the Galactic Republic."

One which you would think would be well defended, no? But it wasn't, Glentract. It was captured easily by the combined Tetan and Mandalorian fighters in a fight that, the comic indicates, lasted only minutes. There was no fleet defending it.

Does it say that the battle only took minutes or are you infering that from the comics? Remember that fighters are extremely capable. 6 squadrons can regularly take down a Star Destroyer.

Originally posted by IKC
Really? You actually think Sifo Dyas ordered its construction? Let me ask you something, with whose money did the Jedi "buy" the army, if your assertion is correct? Jedi have nothing but what the Republic grants them. The Republic bought the army, it was the Grand Army of the Republic. The Republic controlled its movements, paid for its equipment and supplies, and decided when and where it was to be used. The Jedi did not. The Jedi were tactical commanders, not strategic.

No, Yoda was the Grand General, Supreme Commander of the Republic Army. He created the Republic's War strategy. I repeat, a JEDI desided how the Clones would fight the war.

Now, Sifo did it with money that Count Dooku gave him. Count Dooku was extremely wealthy, as he was the Count of Serreno.

Originally posted by IKC
What you're saying is akin to suggesting that the generals and admirals of the US military can declare war, or redeploy troops. That's not the case at all.

Originally posted by IKC
Pardon me, but when did Exar Kun ever lose a battle, a fight, or anything of the sort to another living force user? Was Exar Kun ever stopped in his tracks by the likes of Nomi Sunrider? No. On the contrary, he treated her and the rest of the Jedi on her level as not being important enough to dirty his hands with. He virtually ignored them all. Even when Sylvar, the mate of Crado, repeatedly confronted him, he paid little heed to her, eventually sending a Massassi to slap her away on Ossus (she was armed with a lightsaber).

Exar lost at Yavin. The only battle he ever fought in, he lost. At least Aleema won one.

And, Ulic went toe to toe with Kun. Ulic was stripped of his power by Nomi. Someone just as powerful as Kun was defeated by Nomi.

Originally posted by IKC
He did lost twice in his lifetime. Once as a padawan against Vodo, and again against the combined might of all the Jedi in the galaxy. Please tell me how he and Aleema are comparable at all.

He lost twice at Yavin, second time to a bunch of padawans. He was also at Nadd's mercy for a long time.

Kun's got about a 50/50 ratio of winning. Han Solo does better then him.

Originally posted by IKC
That's not entirely accurate. Exar Kun was able to speak and understand the Sith tongue before he wore Sadow's amulet. And the description of the book in DLOTS reads: "A source of long-forgotten power, the book can only be used by a Sith follower." Read: only. Not anyone can just pick it up and, provided they know ancient Sith, use it.

The Amulet allowed non-Sith to read it. It is stated in the Essential Guides. Nadd gave it to them. Without it, they couldn't read it.

How did Exar know Sith?

Originally posted by IKC
Yes it does, combined with the fact that they never appear again in TOTJ and are never shown using Sith magic. They're never even mentioned again. They're weak and irrelevant to the story.

Just like the 9,900 of the PT Jedi who fought in the Clone Wars but never recieved a name? Or how about 99% of the Mandalorians that fought in the Great Sith War. They aren't named, so they don't exist. Oh yes, and out of all of the trillions of Yuuzhan Vong, only fifty or so have names, so the rest never accomplished anything and are completely powerless.

It's bad logic on your part. Lack of a name does not mean that a character did not do anything important or that the person was not powerful.

Originally posted by IKC
I've already answered it, Glentract. Your proofs regarding a star destroyer are irrelevant. It is obvious that Sadow's ship was more powerful than a Star Destroyer, because it performed a feat that a Star Destroyer could never do. You don't seem to understand that the ship doesn't use conventional energy. Its weapon is powered by Sith magic (not its user's). I'll direct you to the quotes above by Aleema Keto and Exar Kun.

You have not proved that the power came from the ship. You believe that it did, but you have not proved it. I have given unrevokable evidence to the contrary. If you cannont prove otherwise, shut it.

Originally posted by IKC
Specify what? The feats? Naga's feats, both of star-ripping and illusions, are replicated perfectly by Aleema Keto, a relative weakling by all respects. Kun's feats are already well known, freezing the entire Senate among the more impressive. I've not read NJO but I understand that Luke performs feats on this level. DE Sidious can conjure force storms and teleport someone around the galaxy. Do I have to go on? You know all of this.

Luke controlled a black hole, but was EXTREMELY drained afterwards. Naga wasn't even sweating, but Luke couldn't even stand for several minutes. Moving someone across the galaxy is far easier than destroying a star. The Millenium Falcon can move people across the galaxy, but it isn't a millionth powerful enough to harm a star.

Freezing the Senate? In no way does that compare to destroying a star. Not in anyway at all.

You have to remember that Exar Kun nearly pissed on himself in fear of the spirit of Marka Ragnos. No way is Kun more powerful than him.

Originally posted by IKC
Illustrious, arguments are not made and won using solely debating skill. Until you can bring evidence that actually refutes me, then my points stand.

Illustrious, if your only evidence is that the author repeatedly makes overblown references to their power, then you're not going to win this. Give me more.

I'm not going to address the other points, but this is crap. Illustrious(and myself) have presented more evidence then you have. Your arguments don't stand as they are outweighed by superior evidence by people who oppose you.

Stop criticizing other people for evidence(and it's worse when people like you do it wrongly) when you fail to create realistic and logical arguments to the contrary.

Second, Naga is the only known person to ever destroy and contain a star. Aleema destroyed one, but was unable to contain it.

Illustrious, if your only evidence is that the author repeatedly makes overblown references to their power, then you're not going to win this. Give me more.

I can easily say if your only evidence is a bunch of poor logical statements that don't even hold water, you're not even going to make it past day 1 in any debate. Period.

You still did what I said: you avoided all the points about how your reasoning is not sound, and yet you hide behind the "bring me the evidence."

Uh, heard of burden of proof? You're attempting to assume off an unknown. I have the narrator telling me explicitly. Not trusting the narrator's word is like arguing Yoda is purple with some beige tints. It's not going very well for you.

IKC, a few points....

DE Sidious? NJO Luke? Comparable?

You DO realize that DE Sidious was wearing Sadow's amulet? And on top of that had a kaiburr crystal?

NJO Luke is fortified with a kaiburr crystal as well, and possibly something else that's eluding me at this moment.

So both examples you have of "comparable" Force users were artificially augmented. On top of that, they are the rare exception, not the norm. I fail to see how you could come to the conclusion that modern force users are equivalent to Kun or even the ancient Sith in this regard.

And let's not forget Ludo Kressh- he was on par with Naga Sadow for the title, but he didn't display many force feats.

Glentract:

It is revised when it is re-written by the same author. If they like how it turned out before, then they wouldn't change it. The stories, as they are told in the reference guides are a primary source and a more recent source, making them better to go by.

It is not revised in a reference book, Glentract. If you keep going down this road that "zOMG THE REFERENCE BOOK IS BETTER THAN THE PRIMARY SOURCE" I'm going to start ignoring you. If it were revised, TOTJ would have been re-released.

From what I can tell though, you're saying that they did the same thing. (They did) They may have, but consider it like this, Aleema's took a long time to detonate. Naga's has never displayed such a thing. It happened almost instantaneously. (According to Vodo's holocron, which is definitely not a first hand account, much less a recording of the actual event. Vodo didn't even know what Sadow looked like, he's represented as a human in the holocron.) There was at most a ten second delay. This is not enough time for Naga to have escaped. Also note that the star begins going supernova as soon as Naga begins the process. (No, it doesn't, and even if it does it detracts from your case that Sadow held a damned thing back.)

Corrected.

Both are equal sources since they are authored by the same person. Remember that the comics

Glentract, no they aren't. DLOTS itself was scripted by two people, by the way. The primary source trumps reference books that reference the primary source, period.

I did use a hyperbole, but the quote that she had a wealth of Sith Artifacts in unchanged by me in anyway. No hyperbole present.

Glentract, you at first wrote that she had "all of the things that King Omnin had, which was quite a bit actually." Don't even try to claim that you didn't. That is what is called hyperbole.

Just like the 9,900 of the PT Jedi who fought in the Clone Wars but never recieved a name? Or how about 99% of the Mandalorians that fought in the Great Sith War. They aren't named, so they don't exist. Oh yes, and out of all of the trillions of Yuuzhan Vong, only fifty or so have names, so the rest never accomplished anything and are completely powerless.

In comparison to the unnamed leaders of the Krath? They accomplished more, far more, than those leaders did. The only threats that came from the Krath were from Aleema and Satal Keto and the army they commanded. That's it. None of the others had an inkling of importance or power to them.

Also, in the new Essential Guide to Chronology, it says, "Satal, Aleema, and their friends had dabbled into Sith Magic,amusing themselves with Artifacts recovered by the Jedi Odan-Urr during the Great Hyperspace War a thousand years earlier." No longer can you deny that there were other Krath who practiced Sith Magic.

In no way does the primary source have any of the other Krath actually performing magic of any sort. Ergo, the other Krath either A) couldn't or B) couldn't perform at the level of either Satal or Aleema.

Added to that, starwars.com states(under Ulic's profile incase you want to personally check), "Satal Keto and his cousin Aleema would go on to forge the Krath, a secret society of social elites in the Empress Teta system, who dabbled with the dark side and Sith magic."

Yes.. because starwars.com is never wrong or inaccurate, especially about obscure subjects, right? The primary source reads that they dabbled in "primitive magic." It, two boxes later, reads that Satal and Aleema, no other Krath, stumbled upon Sith secrets. It is true that Satal and Aleema dealt with the Sith and the Dark Side, that doesn't mean that the unimportant others did.

Ulic was a Krath infact. The Essential Guide to Characters says, "He(Ulic) served alongside the Sith Lord, Exar Kun, but commanded his own Krath sects."

Oh, I see. So because you command a group you become one of them?

I guess the Jedi then were all clones. Or perhaps Nute Gunray was a battle droid? Maybe Lord Sidious was both a clone and a battle droid. Good logic there, Glentract.

The New Essential Guide to Chronology states it. pg. 17, I think. It may be on page 18 or 19.

And has no indication of any sort in the primary source material. To say that they did is ridiculous anyway, they were a secret society of a handful of aristocrats, dominated by Aleema and Keto, that commanded an army. They did not go out and train others like them in magic or the dark side.

Haha. So you are saying that they INCREASED protection of there planets when there was no longer a threat? You logic is BACKWARDS. I hope that was a typo, becuase that is easily one of the dumbest things I have ever heard on KMC.

No, Glentract, I was laughing at you. Shipyards were well defended during the Galactic Civil War. They were not so during The Sith War. Good reading skills.

As seen on mutiple occasions, civilians can do a GREAT job at defeating the Army. Look at the Sixth Battle of Coruscant. The unarmed civilain Shamed Ones did more damage to the Yuuzhan Vong Army than did the Republic strike teams. Same thing aboard the Seed Ship.

And they did not do a "great" job of defeating the army that the Krath controlled, Glentract. Read the comics. The Krath rule by the time we get to the end of DLOTS is unquestioned throughout the Empress Teta System.

Your examples are irrelevant.

Does it say that the battle only took minutes or are you infering that from the comics? Remember that fighters are extremely capable. 6 squadrons can regularly take down a Star Destroyer.

Too bad the Foerost shipyards didn't have fighter squadrons or defending capital ships of any sort. The most they had was turrets, and the Mandalorian and Tetan soldiers took care of them quickly, boarded the station, and seized the foremen. They then took the activation codes for the capital ships that were constructed there. Then they butchered the crew.

No, Yoda was the Grand General, Supreme Commander of the Republic Army. He created the Republic's War strategy. I repeat, a JEDI desided how the Clones would fight the war.

Tactically he did, but he did not decide where and with what, Glentract. The Republic Senate, represented by Palpatine, did. If what you said was true then Yoda could merely have ended the Clone War at any time.

Exar lost at Yavin. The only battle he ever fought in, he lost. At least Aleema won one.

Lost? Excuse me Glentract, but he didn't even decide to fight. In case you didn't know because you're ignorant and haven't read the comics, he faced all of the Jedi in the galaxy in orbit. He was not so foolish as to believe he could stand against such a force, so he performed the ritual to unleash his spirit.

And I'll run down the list: He beat Vodo, Grandmaster of the Jedi, twice, the second time killing him. He destroyed the spirit of Freedon Nadd after finally accepting the Dark Side. He stalemated Ulic Qel-Droma (in lightsaber combat) while Kun himself was nowhere near the height of his power. He destroyed Odan-Urr with a wave of his hand. He converted twenty Jedi knights with a sith holocron instantaneously. He thought Sylvar, a former rival of his, so unimportant and beneath him that he sent Massassi to bat her around like a rag doll, which they did. He bested Master Ood in lightsaber combat (Ood had to transform, to enter the next stage of his lifecycle, to stop Kun from getting the treasures he sought). And he survived the most crushing Light Side attack we've ever seen, an attack which set fire to Yavin 4 and scorched the surface of the entire moon.

You're blind if you think those aren't wins.

And, Ulic went toe to toe with Kun. Ulic was stripped of his power by Nomi. Someone just as powerful as Kun was defeated by Nomi.

Your ignorance of the story is astounding, Glentract. Ulic stalemated Kun while Kun was nowhere near the height of his power. And Nomi stripped Ulic of the Force while Ulic was overcome with grief after killing his brother Cay and was not resisting her. Please, don't pull things out of thin air and expect to win.

He lost twice at Yavin, second time to a bunch of padawans. He was also at Nadd's mercy for a long time.

I already covered his first "loss." The second time, he lost to a dozen force users, two lightsabers, the spirit of Luke Skywalker, and the spirit of Vodo Siosk Baas. This is after four thousand years of solitude on Yavin 4, which most likely wasn't healthy for his sanity.

By your logic, Marka Ragnos is a weakling because he lost to a single newly-knighted Jedi. Good work, Glentract.

Regarding Nadd, he was at Nadd's mercy because of his own refusal to use the Dark Side. But truly, he was only at his mercy once, when Nadd caused the cave-in that crushed his body. After that, he was attacked by dog-like Sith beasts, and Nadd took his lightsaber. Kun had to use the Dark Side to recover it because the Light had abandoned him. The third time he was captured by the Massassi, again because he wouldn't use the Dark Side. He escaped because of his final acceptance of the Dark as his true power, recovered Sadow's amulet, and slaughtered Naga Sadow's monstrosity. Afterward, he destroyed Nadd's spirit.

The Amulet allowed non-Sith to read it. It is stated in the Essential Guides. Nadd gave it to them. Without it, they couldn't read it.

Incorrect. DLOTS says only one inducted into the Sith can use the book, ergo the Amulet, while they did have it, isn't necessary.

How did Exar know Sith?

In the chamber of the monstrosity on Yavin IV, it reads, "As the alchemical miscreation squeezes the life out of him, a realization dawns on Exar Kun-- He must let go of the past... forget the pathetic Jedi way... Give in to his true power... the power of rage!"

In the next panel, "Suddenly finding he can speak the Sith tongue, Exar Kun reaches towards the focus of power. -- And the Sith amulet (Sadow's) soars toward its rightful owner!"

You have not proved that the power came from the ship. You believe that it did, but you have not proved it. I have given unrevokable evidence to the contrary. If you cannont prove otherwise, shut it.

Glentract, you're becoming insufferable. I'm going to quote what I quoted previously. Maybe you'll pay attention this time. This is undeniable.

DLOTS - Freedon Nadd: He (Sadow) and his many followers tried to hide on the Fourth moon of Yavin...

DLOTS - Exar Kun, upon discovery of Sadow's trove of knowledge, alchemical devices, and ship: Of course! The spacecraft that brought the original Sith renegades to the Jungle moon of Yavin!

TSW - Exar Kun, to Aleema Keto: A thousand years ago, one of my predecessors, the Dark Lord Naga Sadow, used this ship to flee Republic fighters. Here is the power to wrench fire from the stars... let me show you how to use it, Aleema.

TSW - Aleema Keto, same scene: Yes! I can sense the Sith power vibrating through the walls.

TSW - Aleema Keto, waiting in Sadow's ship for the Jedi and Republic forces: Naga Sadow's weaponry is so powerful... I can't wait to use it. (Emphasis mine)

TSW - Narrator, as Aleema flings the star's core at the Jedi and Republic forces: Aleema has used the Sith power in Naga Sadow's ancient ship to rip the core from the center of one of the ten stars in the Cron cluster. She tosses the flaming, radioactive core directly into the midst of her Jedi pursuers... exactly as Exar Kun had planned!

Proof enough? It's the ship, Glentract. Period. Even if none of the other quotes matter, the Narrator spells it out explicitly. You. Lose.

Luke controlled a black hole, but was EXTREMELY drained afterwards. (Controlling a black hole using your own energy is more impressive than ripping the core from a star using a ship's) Naga wasn't even sweating (nor was Aleema), but Luke couldn't even stand for several minutes. Moving someone across the galaxy is far easier than destroying a star (really? Is that why teleportation is so common? Oh wait). The Millenium Falcon can move people across the galaxy, but it isn't a millionth powerful enough to harm a star.

Corrections in parentheses.

Freezing the Senate? In no way does that compare to destroying a star. Not in anyway at all.

Yes it does, when you know as I do that the destruction of the star was caused by a ship and not the user's own Force power.

You have to remember that Exar Kun nearly pissed on himself in fear of the spirit of Marka Ragnos. No way is Kun more powerful than him.

Oh, Glentract, your ignorance is showing. Neither Exar nor Ulic showed fear of any kind upon the appearance of the unnamed Sith Lord that manifested himself in front of them. His appearance was only enough for them to stop their fighting in time for him to speak the prophecy regarding them and induct Kun as Dark Lord of the Sith.

Pulled that one out of thin air as well, didn't you Glentract? (Please do substitute a ruder phrase).

I'm not going to address the other points, but this is crap. Illustrious(and myself) have presented more evidence then you have. Your arguments don't stand as they are outweighed by superior evidence by people who oppose you.

I'm going to summarize your points, Glentract:

"zOMG THIS REFERENCE BOOK TRUMPS THE SOURCE THAT IT REFERENCES!"

"zOMG STAR DESTROYERS CAN'T DO IT, THAT MEANS NO SHIP CAN!"

Here's Illustrious' point:

"zOMG THE AUTHOR KEEPS SAYING THEY WERE POWERFUL!"

More evidence? Laughable. Superior evidence? Absolutely not.

Second, Naga is the only known person to ever destroy and contain a star. Aleema destroyed one, but was unable to contain it.

You keep trying to claim that he contained it when there's no evidence of that at all, and indeed you undermine your own argument because you have to believe that Naga's a god (read above).

Illustrious

I can easily say if your only evidence is a bunch of poor logical statements that don't even hold water, you're not even going to make it past day 1 in any debate. Period.

You're debating that I have no evidence when I've been waving it in front of your face for the past day and a half. I quoted it again for Glentract, why don't you do a little cumulative review with him?

You still did what I said: you avoided all the points about how your reasoning is not sound, and yet you hide behind the "bring me the evidence."

Hide? I've answered your points, Illustrious. It was obvious to me that you didn't understand what my reasoning was, and I clarified it to no avail. So I challenged you to bring me evidence that contradicts me. Until you do, you will continue to lose this debate.

Uh, heard of burden of proof? You're attempting to assume off an unknown. I have the narrator telling me explicitly. Not trusting the narrator's word is like arguing Yoda is purple with some beige tints. It's not going very well for you.

How is the burden of proof on me when I've already made the case that he was not "godlike," and if he was then so are the handful of other, similarly or more powerful force users that came later. I did this by showing how easily his impressive feats are replicated by those supposedly far weaker than he is, and exactly how his feats are not indicative of his Force power but his genius as an inventor.

The challenge is on you to provide evidence from the vaunted source you can't seem to bear using that proves me wrong.

Originally posted by Ianus
IKC, a few points....

DE Sidious? NJO Luke? Comparable?

You DO realize that DE Sidious was wearing Sadow's amulet? And on top of that had a kaiburr crystal?

NJO Luke is fortified with a kaiburr crystal as well, and possibly something else that's eluding me at this moment.

So both examples you have of "comparable" Force users were artificially augmented. On top of that, they are the rare exception, not the norm. I fail to see how you could come to the conclusion that modern force users are equivalent to Kun or even the ancient Sith in this regard.

And let's not forget Ludo Kressh- he was on par with Naga Sadow for the title, but he didn't display many force feats.

Yes, I realize that all of these people are fortified in their own way. Are you telling me the ancient Sith weren't? Think about this: Sadow was in possession of both amulets that Kun and Sidious later came across and used. If it boosted their power, why didn't it boost his?

It did. Sadow, and the rest of the Sith most likely, were also artificially augmented. To say they weren't is to deny the existence of those amulets and other baubles.

And who is to say the Sith themselves were not the rare exceptions? We can name three Sith Lords from the Golden Age time period: Kressh, Sadow, and Ragnos. That seems fitting to me with other time periods in which there were a handful of extraordinarily powerful individuals.

And given that Ludo Kressh didn't display many force feats, what does that tell you about the real power of the Ancient Sith? It certainly doesn't support Illustrious' vaunted quotes from the narrator, does it?

Yes, I realize that all of these people are fortified in their own way. Are you telling me the ancient Sith weren't? Think about this: Sadow was in possession of both amulets that Kun and Sidious later came across and used. If it boosted their power, why didn't it boost his?

Unfortunately, the problem with this premise is that you need to prove where they use said baubles. I haven't seen one picture of Naga Sadow with an amulet around his neck, much less two. While it is a good point that you're trying to make, it's also not taking into consideration that the ancient Sith also MADE such amulets, baubles, etc. They made things like trinkets and such trinkets made some modern force prodigies almost comparable.

It did. Sadow, and the rest of the Sith most likely, were also artificially augmented. To say they weren't is to deny the existence of those amulets and other baubles.

They very likely were. But to what degree and how much of it was the baubles is totally open. It could be a little or a lot. I do know that ROTS Sidious is nothing impressive in the grand scheme of things but DE Sidious (With a kaiburr crystal and one of Sadow's amulets and a whole wealth of holocrons, etc. plus added training) was leagues above his former self. Unfortunately I don't have the exact writing where it says he acquired the amulet, as that might give us insight into its affect on his tremendous growth.

And who is to say the Sith themselves were not the rare exceptions? We can name three Sith Lords from the Golden Age time period: Kressh, Sadow, and Ragnos. That seems fitting to me with other time periods in which there were a handful of extraordinarily powerful individuals.

Simus, Ragnos, Kressh, and Sadow are all named because they are central to the plot of the story. There are a dozen or more other major Sith lords who make up the top tier of the Sith Empire of the Golden Age.

In that line of thought, can you name all of the members of the Brotherhood of Darkness?

And given that Ludo Kressh didn't display many force feats, what does that tell you about the real power of the Ancient Sith? It certainly doesn't support Illustrious' vaunted quotes from the narrator, does it?

Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Ludo Kressh, despite his position and equality to Sadow, Ragnos' only worthy successor, played a relatively minor role in the stories. The comics were very very short stories, and it's not surprising we don't have plenty of clear evidence of his powers.

But if you insist on such logic, I suppose Exar Kun cannot use Force lightning because I don't recall seeing it in the comics.

IKC, I'll respond to your other post in a minute, but I noticed you said only three Ancient Sith have names. That's crap.

Simus
Ragnos
Sadow
Kressh
Daragon
Hord
Ajunta
Dathka Graush
ect.

Originally posted by Ianus
[B]Yes, I realize that all of these people are fortified in their own way. Are you telling me the ancient Sith weren't? Think about this: Sadow was in possession of both amulets that Kun and Sidious later came across and used. If it boosted their power, why didn't it boost his?

Unfortunately, the problem with this premise is that you need to prove where they use said baubles. I haven't seen one picture of Naga Sadow with an amulet around his neck, much less two. While it is a good point that you're trying to make, it's also not taking into consideration that the ancient Sith also MADE such amulets, baubles, etc. They made things like trinkets and such trinkets made some modern force prodigies almost comparable.

It did. Sadow, and the rest of the Sith most likely, were also artificially augmented. To say they weren't is to deny the existence of those amulets and other baubles.

They very likely were. But to what degree and how much of it was the baubles is totally open. It could be a little or a lot. I do know that ROTS Sidious is nothing impressive in the grand scheme of things but DE Sidious (With a kaiburr crystal and one of Sadow's amulets and a whole wealth of holocrons, etc. plus added training) was leagues above his former self. Unfortunately I don't have the exact writing where it says he acquired the amulet, as that might give us insight into its affect on his tremendous growth.

And who is to say the Sith themselves were not the rare exceptions? We can name three Sith Lords from the Golden Age time period: Kressh, Sadow, and Ragnos. That seems fitting to me with other time periods in which there were a handful of extraordinarily powerful individuals.

Simus, Ragnos, Kressh, and Sadow are all named because they are central to the plot of the story. There are a dozen or more other major Sith lords who make up the top tier of the Sith Empire of the Golden Age.

In that line of thought, can you name all of the members of the Brotherhood of Darkness?

And given that Ludo Kressh didn't display many force feats, what does that tell you about the real power of the Ancient Sith? It certainly doesn't support Illustrious' vaunted quotes from the narrator, does it?

Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Ludo Kressh, despite his position and equality to Sadow, Ragnos' only worthy successor, played a relatively minor role in the stories. The comics were very very short stories, and it's not surprising we don't have plenty of clear evidence of his powers.

But if you insist on such logic, I suppose Exar Kun cannot use Force lightning because I don't recall seeing it in the comics. [/B]

Naga Sadow is shown very clearly wearing the very same amulet (It was actually more of a shoulder pad chained to a gauntlet) that Exar Kun later acquires in most scenes that I've seen from Golden Age and Fall of the Sith Empire. He's also shown wearing a myriad of other baubles, one of which may be the one later acquired by Sidious. It's not unreasonable to assume that they all combined to boost his power considerably.

And, sorry, I don't know what you refer to when you reference the Brotherhood of Darkness. Enlighten me, please. My point was that those Sith Lords were the most powerful Force users of their time (Odan-Urr, I believe, is the only Jedi of significance in the series. Correct me if I'm wrong.).

Ludo Kressh didn't really play a minor role. He is one of the primary reasons Sadow lost both the war against the Republic so quickly and his position as Dark Lord of the Sith. If we don't have evidence of their powers beyond the feats Sadow displayed, feats I've shown to be less impressive than at first glance, why is it we assume them to be automatically stronger than any other being that came after?

And, to be fair, the spirit of Exar Kun apparently fried Gantoris with force lightning in the Jedi Academy trilogy 😉

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
IKC, I'll respond to your other post in a minute, but I noticed you said only three Ancient Sith have names. That's crap.

Simus
Ragnos
Sadow
Kressh
Daragon
Hord
Ajunta
Dathka Graush
ect.

That's not what I wrote, Glentract. There were actually four in the Golden Age that are named and are part of the plot: Ragnos, Kressh, Sadow, and Simus. I was off by one. Read what I wrote.

We can name three Sith Lords from the Golden Age time period: Kressh, Sadow, and Ragnos. That seems fitting to me with other time periods in which there were a handful of extraordinarily powerful individuals.

By "from the Golden Age time period" I mean specifically the comics.

You still missed Daragon, Sadow's apprentice.

From my recollection, he didn't play a major role in the plot. I could be wrong.

Shows what you know. He was the reason the Sith were effectively removed as a galatic power and ended the Great Hyperspace War.