Revan vs Kyp Durron

But in a duel... how does anything you've said (And indeed, none of it relates to saber combat or anything) mean Kyp wins?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Janus, I can't, because it hasn't been written yet(for the Leviathans, other than what I have already given you) and I don't have the comics saying how Kyp killed one, I have read that he did. There was nothing on how the battle went.

Veneficus, believe me, I have at least as much of an idea of the mass of a block hole as you do. The mass of a black hole is the same as that of the star it came from. The reason light cannot escape is because the same amount of mass(and therefor same amount of gravitatational energy to overcome) is much more concentrated. Naga had to control the same amount, if not a greater amount of energy, it was just more spread out.

Glentract your post is so fallacious I think you have to be joking.

That was quite an effective argument, GV.

Janus, the Levithans were designed as War Mounts to charge into battle and kill Jedi. Kyp was able to overcome one of these, which I take as an indication of power, moreso than killing two tarentateks.

I am looking at the picture of one charging into battle(it's more in the background really) and it is huge. It's over twenty times taller than the humans and has a massive body. I don't see how a Tarentatek could hit anything but it's leg( I am also baffled as to how Kyp defeated one. I mean, it HUGE!). Unfortunately, I can't find the picture online to show it to you.

Well, when the details are forthcoming, we'll talk.

Go to the store and pick up the New Essential Guide to Chronolgy. It's easily over a hundred feet tall.

So was an AT-AT walker.

I found one, but this isn't the pic I was talking about. It looks a lot smaller in this pic.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract

I found one, but this isn't the pic I was talking about. It looks a lot smaller in this pic.

Holy shit! That thing is frigging huge! And Kyp just goes ahead and defeats it like that? Goddamn NJO...

It's actually pre-NJO.

That thing is huge. But I'm curious to see how he beat it.

Agreed. There are other ways of defeating an enemy. It's not always a lightsaber.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract

I found one, but this isn't the pic I was talking about. It looks a lot smaller in this pic.

Wow, I had no idea it was THAT big..

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
That was quite an effective argument, GV.

"Veneficus, believe me, I have at least as much of an idea of the mass of a block hole as you do. The mass of a black hole is the same as that of the star it came from."

Initially yes, however black holes continue to gain mass depending on the availibility. Many black holes have been measured to be hundreds of millions of times more massive than our sun...blow

10 billion times the mass of our sun (Heres a nice one for you Glentract.)

"The reason light cannot escape is because the same amount of mass(and therefor same amount of gravitatational energy to overcome) is much more concentrated. Naga had to control the same amount, if not a greater amount of energy, it was just more spread out."

Okay first lets assume the mass of the black hole happens to be congruent with the mass of the star, even then manipulating it would still take FAR more power than what Sadow did. All Naga Sadow did was blow it up, he didnt manipulate it in its full form and move it, Im guessing all he did was move things around in the core causing it to go boom..Thats if he even did it himself, Im being told it was his ship that did it for him. As I have explained to manipulate even a small black hole would be the equivalant of moving a star and to my knowledge the ancient sith have never done that thus the feat in NJO was let me emphasize again FAR more impressive.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
"Veneficus, believe me, I have at least as much of an idea of the mass of a block hole as you do. The mass of a black hole is the same as that of the star it came from."

Initially yes, however black holes continue to gain mass depending on the availibility. Many black holes have been measured to be hundreds of millions of times more massive than our sun...blow

10 billion times the mass of our sun (Heres a nice one for you Glentract.)

I have actually read this article before and it is not useful for several reasons.

First, "A team of astronomers have found a colossal black hole so ancient, they're not sure how it had enough time to grow to its current size, about 10 billion times the mass of the Sun. "

Further down in the article, it says, "It really is too far away to do a direct orbital measurement to help determine its mass," Romani said, adding that he and his colleagues had to estimate the mass based on a quantitative method that includes measuring particle velocity and the Doppler shift of its infrared emission lines. "The best thing to do is study it in a broader region of the spectrum, to get more emission lines.""

They don't know for sure just how big it is.

Also, notice this, "Very massive black holes like this are so rare, that one should really be a little suspicious at first," Romani said. "

Are you telling me that you really think that BOTH Luke and Kyp controlled ones that rare?

I hate to kill the Luke the black hole argmument(I am a major fan of Luke. I'd be a fanboy if I didn't keep a real level head about it), but Luke and Kyp didn't control real black holes. I have been re-reading the NJO series and I realized(I was in a state of shock and awe when it happened) that Luke and Kyp controlled artificial black holes. These black holes were much smaller than natural ones and therefor much weaker.

The star argument actually is FAR more impressive. We know that the power of the black hole can't exceed the power of the ship and we know that the black hole's of the ship they controlled are near equal to the power of an ISD. The reactor of an ISD is equal to the output of a star.

The Imperial Star Destroyer was stated as the most powerful ship ever(this was as of the moment it was first built.)

The mass of a star is 198,892,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 kilograms. Yes, that is a lot.

The core comprises ~60% of the suns mass. That is 119,335,200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 kilograms. Still, that is a lot.

To move that at a rate of 1 meter per-second would require 119,335,200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 watts of energy.

The energy out put of an entire star is LESS than that(remember that the energy output of one star is that maximum for any ship prior to the Imperial Star Destroyer).

Incase you are wondering what the energy output of a star(the sun) is, here you go, 3,860,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.

119,335,200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 / 3,860,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 = 30.9158549

So, even if the star was moved at a measily one meter persecond, it would require the power of thirty Imperial Star Destroyers to move it. Since NO ship prior to the Imperial Star Destroyer was able to harness the power of even a single star, it is impossible for any ship prior to the launch of the Executor to produce that energy on it's own.

Remeber that the following equations use a speed of only one meter per second to as the rate that the star was moving at. The true number is thousands of times higher than that, as it was moving faster than the Republic ships could get away at.

Remember that it takes ~31 times the energy a star releases to move the star's core at one meter per second. The ship that produced the black holes that Luke and Kyp controlled has a generating capacity equal to one star. Therefor, what Naga did is 31 times more difficult that what Luke and Kyp did. Or is it...

The highest percentage of the ships total energy that any main stream Imperial Ship put into it's shields was 65%.

That means that best case for Luke and Kyp, their feat of controlling a black hole is 47.69 times easier than what Naga did, assuming Naga only moved the star at 1 meter per second.

Proof: 31 / .65 = 47.69

Remember that the above has assumed all best case senario's for Luke and Kyp AND put a massive limitation on Naga's power by saying that he only moved the star one meter per second. The true speed is thousands of times above this, but is an unknown thousands of times, so we will again give Luke and Kyp best case and say 1,000 meters per second.

(mass of star)119,335,200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 * (speed of core's movement assuming best case for Luke and Kyp)1,000 meters per second = 11,933,520,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

(energy required to move star at in a best case senario for Luke and Kyp)11,933,520,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 / (amount of energy required for Luke and Kyp's task)5,938,461,540,000,000,000,000,000,000 = 2,009.53057

Naga Sadow's greatest feat is 2,009 times more impressive than Luke's or Kyp's(defeating the Leviathan may actually be more impressive) even when we assume a best case senario for Luke and Kyp.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
"The reason light cannot escape is because the same amount of mass(and therefor same amount of gravitatational energy to overcome) is much more concentrated. Naga had to control the same amount, if not a greater amount of energy, it was just more spread out."

Okay first lets assume the mass of the black hole happens to be congruent with the mass of the star, even then manipulating it would still take FAR more power than what Sadow did. All Naga Sadow did was blow it up, he didnt manipulate it in its full form and move it, Im guessing all he did was move things around in the core causing it to go boom..Thats if he even did it himself, Im being told it was his ship that did it for him. As I have explained to manipulate even a small black hole would be the equivalant of moving a star and to my knowledge the ancient sith have never done that thus the feat in NJO was let me emphasize again FAR more impressive.

I believe the above math will sway you into my line of thinking. Please double-check my math, if you please. I hate to admit it, but Luke can't compare.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I believe the above math will sway you into my line of thinking. Please double-check my math, if you please. I hate to admit it, but Luke can't compare.

I read through it, I didnt have time to check on all the math though Ill just assume you wouldnt just pull numbers out of the air.

They don't know for sure just how big it is.

Im assuming the quantitive method they used is fairly accurate, therefore although they dont have the exact mass there most likely in the ballpark.

Also, notice this, "Very massive black holes like this are so rare, that one should really be a little suspicious at first," Romani said. "

Are you telling me that you really think that BOTH Luke and Kyp controlled ones that rare?

Ofcourse not, I used this black hole as an example of how ridiculously massive they can become. Black holes more around the mass of 100,000,000 suns are quite common.

I hate to kill the Luke the black hole argmument(I am a major fan of Luke. I'd be a fanboy if I didn't keep a real level head about it), but Luke and Kyp didn't control real black holes. I have been re-reading the NJO series and I realized(I was in a state of shock and awe when it happened) that Luke and Kyp controlled artificial black holes. These black holes were much smaller than natural ones and therefor much weaker.

I havent actually read the material that had Luke manipulating a black hole. Ive always been told it was a real one but if what you say is true then forgot my previous arguments as it seems you have effectively invalidated them.

The star argument actually is FAR more impressive. We know that the power of the black hole can't exceed the power of the ship and we know that the black hole's of the ship they controlled are near equal to the power of an ISD. The reactor of an ISD is equal to the output of a star.

The Imperial Star Destroyer was stated as the most powerful ship ever(this was as of the moment it was first built.)

The mass of a star is 198,892,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 kilograms. Yes, that is a lot.

The core comprises ~60% of the suns mass. That is 119,335,200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 kilograms. Still, that is a lot.

To move that at a rate of 1 meter per-second would require 119,335,200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 watts of energy.

The energy out put of an entire star is LESS than that(remember that the energy output of one star is that maximum for any ship prior to the Imperial Star Destroyer).

Incase you are wondering what the energy output of a star(the sun) is, here you go, 3,860,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.

119,335,200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 / 3,860,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 = 30.9158549

So, even if the star was moved at a measily one meter persecond, it would require the power of thirty Imperial Star Destroyers to move it. Since NO ship prior to the Imperial Star Destroyer was able to harness the power of even a single star, it is impossible for any ship prior to the launch of the Executor to produce that energy on it's own.

Remeber that the following equations use a speed of only one meter per second to as the rate that the star was moving at. The true number is thousands of times higher than that, as it was moving faster than the Republic ships could get away at.

Remember that it takes ~31 times the energy a star releases to move the star's core at one meter per second. The ship that produced the black holes that Luke and Kyp controlled has a generating capacity equal to one star. Therefor, what Naga did is 31 times more difficult that what Luke and Kyp did. Or is it...

The highest percentage of the ships total energy that any main stream Imperial Ship put into it's shields was 65%.

That means that best case for Luke and Kyp, their feat of controlling a black hole is 47.69 times easier than what Naga did, assuming Naga only moved the star at 1 meter per second.

Proof: 31 / .65 = 47.69

Remember that the above has assumed all best case senario's for Luke and Kyp AND put a massive limitation on Naga's power by saying that he only moved the star one meter per second. The true speed is thousands of times above this, but is an unknown thousands of times, so we will again give Luke and Kyp best case and say 1,000 meters per second.

(mass of star)119,335,200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 * (speed of core's movement assuming best case for Luke and Kyp)1,000 meters per second = 11,933,520,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

(energy required to move star at in a best case senario for Luke and Kyp)11,933,520,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 / (amount of energy required for Luke and Kyp's task)5,938,461,540,000,000,000,000,000,000 = 2,009.53057

Naga Sadow's greatest feat is 2,009 times more impressive than Luke's or Kyp's(defeating the Leviathan may actually be more impressive) even when we assume a best case senario for Luke and Kyp.

I havent given an indepth look at your math, maybe I will later, but it seems your calculations are based off Naga Sadow moving the entire star. To my knowledge Naga didnt move the star he simply blew it up, we dont know the method he used to cause the detonation but no way it would require the energy needed to actually move the whole thing.

No, my calculations are based on Naga moving just the core. We do know how it was destroyed. When the mass of the core was removed, there is not enough gravity to hold back the upper layers, causing the star to go nova.

I would also like a source for the black holes having an average mass of 100,000,000 stars being common(purely out of personal intrest). It doesn't make sense, because there is no where for that mass to come from.

Edit: I hate to smash Luke and Kyp even further, but is there any evidence that they even controlled all of the gravitational energy of a black hole?

Revan. Don't know alot about Kyp but that he's Luke's strongest student. Can someone at least reasonably intelligent tell me how Kyp's power compares to, say, Yoda's?

Kyp defeated a Leviathan, which I doubt Yoda could do. Kyp also was said to rival Luke in lightsaber skill and force powers by this point, which may be so, as he did replicate Luke's black hole feat.

Wait wait, these Leviathans coexisted with the Ancient Sith? Hmm, damn continuity issues.

The Ancient Sith created them(maybe mutated something else, maybe made them from scratch) to use as war mounts. They were gone for thousands of years until one was found somewhere and Kyp went to go kill it. Where's the continuty problem?