Revan vs Kyp Durron

You said we can't use movie fight scenes as evidence because they are in your opinion "too inconsistant". This totally rolls over and cocks the idea of movei canon being the highest level canon. If you can't use it as evidence, nothing else can be used either. The entire EU is branched off of the movies, not the other way around.

No doubt movie is the highest level of canon, but we shouldn't use movie inconsistency/error or choreography limitations as a determinant for a fight, that much I'll agree with.

Janus, please notice that in the moives, all of the Imperial Officers have the same rank on their uniform. Are you telling me Piett and some random Imperial Officer are the same rank?

Originally posted by Illustrious
No doubt movie is the highest level of canon, but we shouldn't use movie inconsistency/error or choreography limitations as a determinant for a fight, that much I'll agree with.

Well, if it's a straight up foul up in the movie making I can see, but there aren't any choreography limitations for ROTJ and for a lesser extent ESB. ANH is a different case, because the wooden props used for the fight were fragile and flimsy and as a result the duel was.... pathetic.

But when you have two pieces of evidence from movies... say, Anakin from the PT and LUke from the OT, how can you say Luke wins without citing any OT evidence? How can you simply say "OMg, well there were technical limitations back then..." No, there weren't. If there is a choreographical/technical limitation that is so impeding that Luke would be quite simply crippled because of it, you need to prove up, Glentract.

IN this case, PT Anakin simply blows OT Luke away with more studying and understanding of the Force, more speed, more experience with lightsaber-to-lightsaber training, and a higher force potential just for starters. The only way I've seen pro-Luke people argue is "Omg the choreography was like am amputee on a breakdancing floor. If it was made today it'd be Kung fuish!'

Well, it's not made today and to argue something that clearly doesn't exist for the purpose of debate is assinine. The OT exists. Movie canon exists. Yes, there may be small inconsistancies. You've pointed out the military ranks apparently being the same. It does happen. But to rule out every single OT fight scene and then what? Just imagine Luke is better? Ridiculous!

Originally posted by Ianus
Well, if it's a straight up foul up in the movie making I can see, but there aren't any choreography limitations for ROTJ and for a lesser extent ESB. ANH is a different case, because the wooden props used for the fight were fragile and flimsy and as a result the duel was.... pathetic.

But when you have two pieces of evidence from movies... say, Anakin from the PT and LUke from the OT, how can you say Luke wins without citing any OT evidence? How can you simply say "OMg, well there were technical limitations back then..." No, there weren't. If there is a choreographical/technical limitation that is so impeding that Luke would be quite simply crippled because of it, you need to prove up, Glentract.

IN this case, PT Anakin simply blows OT Luke away with more studying and understanding of the Force, more speed, more experience with lightsaber-to-lightsaber training, and a higher force potential just for starters. The only way I've seen pro-Luke people argue is "Omg the choreography was like am amputee on a breakdancing floor. If it was made today it'd be Kung fuish!'

Well, it's not made today and to argue something that clearly doesn't exist for the purpose of debate is assinine. The OT exists. Movie canon exists. Yes, there may be small inconsistancies. You've pointed out the military ranks apparently being the same. It does happen. But to rule out every single OT fight scene and then what? Just imagine Luke is better? Ridiculous!

I don't want to say that Luke would be able to take ROTS Anakin (by any logic...Anakin had more training, more fighting action, more force potential) but there were many limitations in OT times.

a)
They weren't able to create complete CGI enviroment and complete CGI characters in the early 80s. If you have a look at the OT many things that were simply computer animation in the CGI were done with models in the OT. Hell...in ESB they used stop-motion for the ATAT's. There was no way to create really fast lightsaber fights like those we have seen in the PT.

b)
They didn't care much about the lightsaber fighting - not nearly as much as they did for the PT. In the PT they had the actors training for weeks or even months and Mark Hamill didn't have that much training exactly. When he handles that lightsaber he looks like the sword fighting noob he really is while the people in the PT look like as if they can just walk out of the set and kick some Samurai around.

c)
There was a lack of fighting choreography in the OT. Simply compare the fighting scenes and the entire movements. In the OT they simply hit on each others lightsaber and do a few steps back and forth. The most impressive movement in all those fights was Luke kicking Vader down the stairs in ROTJ.

In conclusion I'm pretty sure that those fights would have looked much more impressive if they would have been filmed today but nonetheless Luke would get kicked by most of the PT Jedi because they simply had more training and more fighting experience.

Yeah, but obviously you don't get the point: we can't make biased judgments (As Glentract often does when it comes to Luke Skywalker... Hell, come to think if it every damn person who rolls through here has a severe case of "OMg bias"😉 and just assume things. Glentract was basically telling me at one point that ROTJ Luke could beat AOTC Anakin. His evidence? Limitation of choreography.

Wait, come to think of it... that WOULDN'T be evidence, would it?

I could just as easily say Revan takes the entire PT council because he was uber and the games just couldn't show how uber he was.

See the faulty logic behind that? We have certain evidence. You cannot just make up evidence or go on a hunch (Read: bias). Luke was nothing impressive compared to any PT fighter. That's what we got, and there aren't any books or any other concrete form of EU during or before ROTJ who can prove the case. Hence, ROTJ Luke < AOTC Anakin. Case closed.

I -really- don't see what's so hard to admit about that. I mean, people don't have a stake in an imaginary fight... I would hope.

Janus, I have admitted that when it comes to ROTJ Luke I am a major fan(I wouldn't call myself a fanboy, because I have used evidence to back up my claims on mutiple occasions. If you want, I'll give an overview here.

Seriously though, how can AOTC Anakin be better than Luke? Luke defeated OT Vader, who, although is impared, is a lot better than that.

And Janus, you still don't seem to understand my point on lightsaber seens. Notice how well Anakin and Obi-wan fight on Mustafar and then compare that to how they fight on the Invinsible Hand. There is a dramatic increase in fighting ability in less than a week. I don't see how this is so, creating an inconsistency.

Janus, I have admitted that when it comes to ROTJ Luke I am a major fan(I wouldn't call myself a fanboy, because I have used evidence to back up my claims on mutiple occasions. If you want, I'll give an overview here.

I've seen your evidence. You know I ain't the hardest person in the world to convince, but you didn't once come close.

Seriously though, how can AOTC Anakin be better than Luke? Luke defeated OT Vader, who, although is impared, is a lot better than that.

Unrelated feats. You argue these all the time. Take a historical example: If Akechi Mitsuhide, a samurai of considerable reputation, is killed by a peasant with a wooden spear, does this peasant become greater than all those Mitsuhide has bested in combat? No. I could see if it was a decisive, clear and emotionally untangled battle, but it wasn't. Vader was not out to kill his son, only to turn him. And he very nearly succeeded. You want to talk inconsistancies, explain to me how Vader buckled under Luke's unskilled assault, yet in ANH he can lift a grown man a foot off of the floor? Explain that to me aside from my own explanation, which is that Vader was luring Luke into using the darkside to turn him.

And Janus, you still don't seem to understand my point on lightsaber seens. Notice how well Anakin and Obi-wan fight on Mustafar and then compare that to how they fight on the Invinsible Hand. There is a dramatic increase in fighting ability in less than a week. I don't see how this is so, creating an inconsistency.

I have already explained this to you. Obi-Wan versus Anakin is faster because its one on one and the two are close to the same level. Hell, they know one another very well. This is not the case with two on one versus Dooku. Look at the bottom gif: see how close they are standing to one another? They can't move as quick and openly as they did on Mustafar. This isn't skill that's been upped; it's a difference in fighting circumstances. It also shows how two jedi side by side can be held off by a better opponent.

There's their initial assault on Dooku. Totally ineffective. They could not move quickly forward because of one another and because of the way Dooku (and partially the area) was dictating their ability.

Now look at Mustafar:

Do you see the difference? This isn't inconsistancy no matter how much you'd wish it were; it's different strokes for different folks. No inconsistancy on the level you're saying it is.

Convinced yet?

I never did get a response to this.

I'm not going to argue on this. Over ROTJ Luke, we need to agree to disagree as mutiple post have gotten us no where.

That's sad that you can't even give me the effort, Glentract. You believe so strongly, and yet you can prove nothing.

I'll definately keep that in mind the next time you argue ROTJ Luke.

Whatever. I'm a little drained right now do to studying for finals and don't feel like making long post(just to suit you, I'll give you one later to night).

Then when you have time, make an argument. I don't think you have one though, and what I noted above pretty much shows that.

And it's important to like and respect your favorite characters but when you grasp at straws and make clearly fallacious arguments you need to step back and reevaluate your level of bias.

You've been making it a point to call out everyone lately with your own arguments and you've went round for round with IKC or something you didn't even have the source material to, and yet you refuse to reply on this. I just find that ironic.

Well if Revan is near Exar Kun's power, then I don't see why he can't beat Kyp.

Originally posted by Ianus
I've seen your evidence. You know I ain't the hardest person in the world to convince, but you didn't once come close. [B]

I can tell.

Luke has defeated Vader twice(although one of these times Obi-wan helped, it was just by a little).
Luke was able to take down fifty-some thugs on Tatooine, a much greater feat than many of the Knights on Geonosis.
Luke defeated Guri(which I will elaborate on later in my post.).
Luke took out Black Sun(effectively destroyed them).
Fought off Boba(it was rather retarded though).
The day after ROTJ, Luke commanded a fleet into Bakura(not technically ROTJ Luke, but there is no way there was any major improvement in a mere 24 hours of partying).

Luke has demonstrated the ability to greatly enhance his strength(defeated Guri), fight battles effectively when severely outnumbered(Black Sun and Sail Barge), has defeated Vader and Boba(showing that ability to defeat tough opponents in one-on-one), commanded fleets(showing the Alliance’s faith in his ability in tactics and reasoning.).

The above shows why I think Skywalker is as good as I say. If it doesn’t make you think the same thing, then we, like I said, will have to agree to disagree, unless some new angles can be found.

Originally posted by Ianus
[B]Unrelated feats. You argue these all the time. Take a historical example: If Akechi Mitsuhide, a samurai of considerable reputation, is killed by a peasant with a wooden spear, does this peasant become greater than all those Mitsuhide has bested in combat? No. I could see if it was a decisive, clear and emotionally untangled battle, but it wasn't. Vader was not out to kill his son, only to turn him. And he very nearly succeeded. You want to talk inconsistancies, explain to me how Vader buckled under Luke's unskilled assault, yet in ANH he can lift a grown man a foot off of the floor? Explain that to me aside from my own explanation, which is that Vader was luring Luke into using the darkside to turn him.

My point is far more closely related to this than yours. Did the peasant engage the Samurai and defeat him with the Samurai’s weapon of choice? Was it a lucky shot(example: The Samurai is distracted when a bird is flying along and hits him in the face. During his confusion, the peasant guts him.). If the peasant defeats the Samurai like Luke defeated Vader, then yes, the peasant would be better than the Samurai. That is assuming that the Samurai defeated all of his foes in a fair fight, a.k.a. no major external influences. Also note that Luke defeated Luke twice(one of those times Obi-wan’s spirit did help him, but by how much cannot really be understood. If it was by a lot, where was Obi-wan on Bespin? It was probably his proximity to Pomjema, but it still counts for something.)

Is Luke overpowering Vader any different to Yoda winning a saberlock with Dooku? It’s power from the force that gives them extra strength. I also think your explanation on that is good, except that I don’t think Vader would purposely lose to Luke as he has seen first hand what happens to Sith who try to lure others to the Darkside(Dooku decapitated, perhaps).

Also note that Luke defeated Guri in unarmed combat. Guri is a HRD of extreme strength. Other HRD’s have, while unarmed, easily killed several foes who are lightly armed(vibro-knives, for instance). There is no way Luke could have one the fight without severe use of the force to greatly enhance his strength.

Originally posted by Ianus
I have already explained this to you. Obi-Wan versus Anakin is faster because its one on one and the two are close to the same level. Hell, they know one another very well. This is not the case with two on one versus Dooku. Look at the bottom gif: see how close they are standing to one another? They can't move as quick and openly as they did on Mustafar. This isn't skill that's been upped; it's a difference in fighting circumstances. It also shows how two jedi side by side can be held off by a better opponent.

Okay. See below.(Side note, how do you get those clips?)

Originally posted by Ianus
Do you see the difference? This isn't inconsistancy no matter how much you'd wish it were; it's different strokes for different folks. No inconsistancy on the level you're saying it is.

Convinced yet?

(Video Clips deleted because I wrote this in word and it didn’t take them and I didn’t want to copy paste my arguments.)

I can’t post clips, but there are other parts of the battle where they fight far more effectively. I’ll concede this point tas I lack the resources(I can’t show video clips) so I can’t prove my outlook on this to anyone.

Luke has defeated Vader twice(although one of these times Obi-wan helped, it was just by a little).

If you really want to dirty your hands and use Splinter of the Mind's Eye, you should point out that Obi-Wan controlled Luke's body. So helping "just by a little" is a bit of a stretch. Also, the conditions of Luke's victory in ROTJ are highly in question. I don't know how to reiterate that any more, but apparently no one wants to listen.

Luke was able to take down fifty-some thugs on Tatooine, a much greater feat than many of the Knights on Geonosis.

Where the **** where these fifty some thugs?? Not in the movies, and no in the novelisation. Please, prove up.

Luke defeated Guri(which I will elaborate on later in my post.).

More Glentract Feat Wars. Substantiate. How did he beat her? Was it a fair fight? Demonstrate how this relates to Luke pwning AOTC Anakin.

Luke took out Black Sun(effectively destroyed them).

Details, man! Details! Luke Skywalker also took out the Death Star. Does Luke > millions of Imps make sense? Stop with the feat wars and SUBSTANTIATE.

Fought off Boba(it was rather retarded though).

Lando Calrissian snuck up on Boba, and Han Solo offed him when he was blind. Hardly convincing. Details?

The day after ROTJ, Luke commanded a fleet into Bakura(not technically ROTJ Luke, but there is no way there was any major improvement in a mere 24 hours of partying).

And Revan commanded a Sith Empire of sorts. Revan > Luke in saber combat? No. That doesn't relate. Details, relation, proof.... something. Just no more Feat Wars.

Luke has demonstrated the ability to greatly enhance his strength(defeated Guri), fight battles effectively when severely outnumbered(Black Sun and Sail Barge), has defeated Vader and Boba(showing that ability to defeat tough opponents in one-on-one), commanded fleets(showing the Alliance’s faith in his ability in tactics and reasoning.).

How will upping his strength help him against a jedi of 10 years training and a lightsaber prodigy? How will being able to fight blaster wielding goons help? How will beating his dad in a conflicted emotional battle of dubious authenticity and through no real skill and one-upping the same bounty hunter everyone else gets the jump on relate to fighting Anakin? How does commanding troops do a goddamned thing to help him? "Anakin, behold I have fleets?!" WTF, Glentract? You're getting as bad as ER was with Revan. Feats, feats, feats. Most unrealted, and none substantiated. Horrid.

The above shows why I think Skywalker is as good as I say. If it doesn’t make you think the same thing, then we, like I said, will have to agree to disagree, unless some new angles can be found.

New angles? How about any angles? I'm seeing Luke destroyed by AOTC Anakin really.

My point is far more closely related to this than yours. Did the peasant engage the Samurai and defeat him with the Samurai’s weapon of choice?

You miss the point; the peasant wasn't a trained soldier. Yet he was able to kill Mitsuhide because of CIRCUMSTANCE, not skill.

Was it a lucky shot(example: The Samurai is distracted when a bird is flying along and hits him in the face. During his confusion, the peasant guts him.). If the peasant defeats the Samurai like Luke defeated Vader, then yes, the peasant would be better than the Samurai.

So the peasant would have to first find his father (Who hopefully would be a notable samurai of repute), have his father's master want him to turn to the dark side, have his father provoke him, and then swing his weapon back and forth and back and forth and back and forth while his daddy takes a horrible dive? And then the peasant = Luke Skywalker?

lol!

Luke was lucky his dad didn't pwn his ass inside of two seconds. Vader lost his temper in ESB when Luke managed a hit in on his shoulder and inside of a few seconds Luke was handless and crying. Vader >>> Luke.

That is assuming that the Samurai defeated all of his foes in a fair fight, a.k.a. no major external influences.

Do you know anything about samurai?

Also note that Luke defeated Luke twice(one of those times Obi-wan’s spirit did help him, but by how much cannot really be understood. If it was by a lot, where was Obi-wan on Bespin? It was probably his proximity to Pomjema, but it still counts for something.)

I already addressed this. Luke was never Vader's better, period. Evidence is against it. Both times Luke had severe help and benefitted from circumstances. I realize you don't want to admit this because you'd have to admit Luke sucks in the grand scheme of things during ROTJ, but too ****ing bad.

Is Luke overpowering Vader any different to Yoda winning a saberlock with Dooku? It’s power from the force that gives them extra strength. I also think your explanation on that is good, except that I don’t think Vader would purposely lose to Luke as he has seen first hand what happens to Sith who try to lure others to the Darkside(Dooku decapitated, perhaps).

Really? So you're assuming Vader's motives without proof? Vader wanted his son to embrace the dark side and join him. He was serving his own ends and the emperor's. My theory still holds.

Also note that Luke defeated Guri in unarmed combat. Guri is a HRD of extreme strength. Other HRD’s have, while unarmed, easily killed several foes who are lightly armed(vibro-knives, for instance). There is no way Luke could have one the fight without severe use of the force to greatly enhance his strength.

And considering that genetically Anakin's Force power outstrips Luke's (His son) how could you argue that this would help him?

Btw, use imageshack to host animated gifs.

I can’t post clips, but there are other parts of the battle where they fight far more effectively. I’ll concede this point tas I lack the resources(I can’t show video clips) so I can’t prove my outlook on this to anyone.

I'd worry more about the legwork of the argument if I were you. Everyone's seen the movies and no one agreed with your thesis. I'd say the point is moot and the gifs pretty much buried them.

Originally posted by Ianus
If you really want to dirty your hands and use Splinter of the Mind's Eye, you should point out that Obi-Wan controlled Luke's body. So helping "just by a little" is a bit of a stretch. Also, the conditions of Luke's victory in ROTJ are highly in question. I don't know how to reiterate that any more, but apparently no one wants to listen.

Please cite where you got that “Obi-wan controlled Luke’s body.” It said that he guided his actions, but where was he on Bespin? Why wasn’t he controlling Luke there? It’s only in your own eyes that Luke not defeating Vader in a fair fight is in question. ER(not the most reliable source, I know) said that Lucas says in the ROTJ commentary on the DVD that Luke defeated Vader.

Originally posted by Ianus
Where the **** where these fifty some thugs?? Not in the movies, and no in the novelisation. Please, prove up.

The Sail Barge. I admit, I didn’t count them all, but there seem to be around fifty.

Originally posted by Ianus
More Glentract Feat Wars. Substantiate. How did he beat her? Was it a fair fight? Demonstrate how this relates to Luke pwning AOTC Anakin.

You got to love ‘em, eh. “which I will elaborate on later in my post.” My reasons are down there.

Originally posted by Ianus
Details, man! Details! Luke Skywalker also took out the Death Star. Does Luke > millions of Imps make sense? Stop with the feat wars and SUBSTANTIATE.

I don’t know why I am elaborating on this. It really wouldn’t take you to long to go find out how it went on your own. If you did and couldn’t find anything, that’s another story.

Basically, Luke took down the people that supplied the resources to build the DS2. Figure the rest out on your own, it won’t take you very long.

Originally posted by Ianus
Lando Calrissian snuck up on Boba, and Han Solo offed him when he was blind. Hardly convincing. Details?

You’ve seen the movie. I shouldn’t be expected to spell everything out for you.

(Of course, I will) This is more or less the same guy who was beating AOTC Obi-wan. Luke defeated him. What does that tell you? ( Because I know what you will argue against it, please state what the outside influences were in the respective fights.)

Originally posted by Ianus
And Revan commanded a Sith Empire of sorts. Revan > Luke in saber combat? No. That doesn't relate. Details, relation, proof.... something. Just no more Feat Wars.

Feats that show why Luke is better than AOTC Anakin.

Originally posted by Ianus
How will upping his strength help him against a jedi of 10 years training and a lightsaber prodigy? How will being able to fight blaster wielding goons help? How will beating his dad in a conflicted emotional battle of dubious authenticity and through no real skill and one-upping the same bounty hunter everyone else gets the jump on relate to fighting Anakin? How does commanding troops do a goddamned thing to help him? "Anakin, behold I have fleets?!" WTF, Glentract? You're getting as bad as ER was with Revan. Feats, feats, feats. Most unrealted, and none substantiated. Horrid.

Anakin was a lightsaber prodigy? I’ve never heard that. The point of upping his strength is to show that it is consistent that Luke did defeated Vader through force. The other points are just to show why Luke is better than AOTC Anakin.

Originally posted by Ianus
New angles? How about any angles? I'm seeing Luke destroyed by AOTC Anakin really.

And you haven’t proven why he is weaker than AOTC Anakin.

Originally posted by Ianus
You miss the point; the peasant wasn't a trained soldier. Yet he was able to kill Mitsuhide because of CIRCUMSTANCE, not skill.

Which is exactly why it is unrelated to Luke defeating Vader. Luke didn’t do it because of a circumstance.

Originally posted by Ianus
So the peasant would have to first find his father (Who hopefully would be a notable samurai of repute), have his father's master want him to turn to the dark side, have his father provoke him, and then swing his weapon back and forth and back and forth and back and forth while his daddy takes a horrible dive? And then the peasant = Luke Skywalker?

lol!

Please use the common sense I know you have. Then, actually provide an answer for my argument.

Originally posted by Ianus
Luke was lucky his dad didn't pwn his ass inside of two seconds. Vader lost his temper in ESB when Luke managed a hit in on his shoulder and inside of a few seconds Luke was handless and crying. Vader >>> Luke.

And you criticized me on lack of ralation of points? That was ESB Luke with two or three days of training. This is ROTJ Luke with over twenty times that.

Originally posted by Ianus
Do you know anything about samurai?

A fair bit, why?

Originally posted by Ianus
I already addressed this. Luke was never Vader's better, period. Evidence is against it. Both times Luke had severe help and benefitted from circumstances. I realize you don't want to admit this because you'd have to admit Luke sucks in the grand scheme of things during ROTJ, but too ****ing bad.

You’ve failed to prove this.

Originally posted by Ianus
Really? So you're assuming Vader's motives without proof? Vader wanted his son to embrace the dark side and join him. He was serving his own ends and the emperor's. My theory still holds.

Where’s your proof? You can’t dispute that Vader has seen firsthand what happens to Sith who try to convert Jedi and it is not what Vader wants(unless you want to convinve me that Vader wanted to die).

Originally posted by Ianus
And considering that genetically Anakin's Force power outstrips Luke's (His son) how could you argue that this would help him?

Vader is in a weakened state. He is able to draw upon the force to aide him less than he could in ROTS, for example. He is still stronger than he was in AOTC.

Originally posted by Ianus
Btw, use imageshack to host animated gifs.

I was actually asking where you get the clips themselves. Thanks anyway.

Originally posted by Ianus
I'd worry more about the legwork of the argument if I were you. Everyone's seen the movies and no one agreed with your thesis. I'd say the point is moot and the gifs pretty much buried them.

You have a fair bit of things to work on too.

Please cite where you got that “Obi-wan controlled Luke’s body.” It said that he guided his actions, but where was he on Bespin? Why wasn’t he controlling Luke there? It’s only in your own eyes that Luke not defeating Vader in a fair fight is in question. ER(not the most reliable source, I know) said that Lucas says in the ROTJ commentary on the DVD that Luke defeated Vader.

1) Actually, I got that idea from you and a few others. I have the book though, so I'll go find the fight for you and write it out.

2) Only in my eyes? People who say it was a fair fight are ALL Luke fans. You, jollyjim, and some other people I can't recall at the moment. Everyone else pretty much realizes that it's a controversial fight.maybe you should PROVE how it's a fair fight. Wait, you can't prove your own existance. Why should I listen to you?

3) ER also says Revan can pwn Ragnos and the ancient Sith. Who will you quote bext? Supershadow?

The Sail Barge. I admit, I didn’t count them all, but there seem to be around fifty.

Just like it "seemed" to be a fair fight? Please. Fifty men. WTF...

I don’t know why I am elaborating on this. It really wouldn’t take you to long to go find out how it went on your own. If you did and couldn’t find anything, that’s another story.

You're making the point. Or rather, you just state points and argue via feat wars. You can't argue for shit, and you really need to brush up on the word SUBSTANTIATE, because it obviously eludes you. It is up to YOU, you who are trying to prove the point... you who brought it up... It is up to you to PROVE UP.

When you learn to do this, come back and see me. Otherwise you're just making an ass out of yourself.

Basically, Luke took down the people that supplied the resources to build the DS2. Figure the rest out on your own, it won’t take you very long.

Figure the rest out on your own? What, aren't you learned and logical enough to make a point? Or can you? You disappoint me. All those debating classes and you can't argue for shit.

You’ve seen the movie. I shouldn’t be expected to spell everything out for you.

I HAVE seen the movies. Is this all you've got? C'mon, Glentract... Make some sense.

(Of course, I will) This is more or less the same guy who was beating AOTC Obi-wan. Luke defeated him. What does that tell you? ( Because I know what you will argue against it, please state what the outside influences were in the respective fights.)

WTF? How is Boba Fett more or less the same guy who was "beating" AOTC Obi-Wan? Can you prove this? Support it? Hell, you've said on other threads how Obi-Wan wasn't outclassed by Jango (And HIS SHIP and HIS KID) because he was trying to capture him, not kill him. Are you welshing on this idea because Luke's involved?

Really, can you put together a decent argument? I don't think so.

Feats that show why Luke is better than AOTC Anakin.

Better? Define better. How does controlling a fleet equate to saber combat? Can Lord Nelson pwn Charlemagne?

Anakin was a lightsaber prodigy? I’ve never heard that. The point of upping his strength is to show that it is consistent that Luke did defeated Vader through force. The other points are just to show why Luke is better than AOTC Anakin.

Pathetic. Just pathetic. Go home, fanboy. You BORE me.

And you haven’t proven why he is weaker than AOTC Anakin.

Sure I have.

- Less experience.
- Less visible skill.
- Less Force potential.

How are you gonna argue with this?

"zOMG! Luke lead fleets!!!!111"

Yeah, that's what I thought.

Which is exactly why it is unrelated to Luke defeating Vader. Luke didn’t do it because of a circumstance.

Yes, he did. Hell, he pretty much ambushed Vader. Was that a fair fight as well?

Please use the common sense I know you have. Then, actually provide an answer for my argument.

Are you mocking me? I know you think you're some debating god around here, Glentract, but you couldn't convince an emo kid to hang himself with the way you've been acting.

Here's common sense: I'm done arguing with your sheer fanboy bias. Goodbye!

Not trying to change the subject, but how did we get started on AOTC Anakin vs. Luke?

zOMG! I still got the GL quote!11!! 😛

I'll write up a response tomorrow. All this crap with IKC(although I do appreciate that he likes Kun) is taking to much of my time right now.

I think it has been established that Kyp Durron would waste Revan.

Originally posted by Veneficus
I think it has been established that Kyp Durron would waste Revan.

Now I just have to prove ROTJ Luke could do the same thing. lol