Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Please cite where you got that “Obi-wan controlled Luke’s body.” It said that he guided his actions, but where was he on Bespin? Why wasn’t he controlling Luke there? It’s only in your own eyes that Luke not defeating Vader in a fair fight is in question. ER(not the most reliable source, I know) said that Lucas says in the ROTJ commentary on the DVD that Luke defeated Vader.
It's in the book if you really read that piece of EU. Luke did the same thing with Jacen in the Jedi Academy trilogy.
And in the ROTJ commentary they don't say anything about Luke really defeating Vader. They are talking about the music and how many people have asked to get this because it wasn't on the soundtrack.
The Sail Barge. I admit, I didn’t count them all, but there seem to be around fifty.
He first pretty much wasted the people who were on the smaller ships and they basically had no chance if you think about the fact that they couldn't go anywhere and where confronted with a weapon that cuts through anything. On the Sail Barge itself he only fought the people who were up there which were more like 5 or 10 and not 50 and he took a blaster bolt on his hand while doing that.
(Of course, I will) This is more or less the same guy who was beating AOTC Obi-wan. Luke defeated him. What does that tell you? ( Because I know what you will argue against it, please state what the outside influences were in the respective fights.)
WTF ? Luke didn't defeat Boba Fett. He just managed to escape Boba Fett before Boba was thrown into the Sarlacc Pit by Han Solo. And Jango Fett just barely managed to escape Obi-Wan in AotC and you call that "besting Obi-Wan" ?
Anakin was a lightsaber prodigy? I’ve never heard that. The point of upping his strength is to show that it is consistent that Luke did defeated Vader through force. The other points are just to show why Luke is better than AOTC Anakin.
Luke isn't better than AotC Anakin because he simply can't be better than AotC Anakin. AotC Anakin had 9 years of training under Obi-Wan while Luke had some weeks on Dagobah and another 6 months studying under Obi-Wan. How should that make him better than his own father who had the greater force potential, the better training and more fighting experience ?
Which is exactly why it is unrelated to Luke defeating Vader. Luke didn’t do it because of a circumstance.
He did it exactly because of circumstances.
First: Vader didn't want to kill him the same way he didn't want to kill him in ESB.
Second: He utilized dark side feelings to overcome Vader which he won't normaly do.
The entire fighting scene in ROTJ Vader is basically holding back and that can be seen. Hell...when throwing his ligthsaber he isn't even aiming for Luke. When Luke freaks out Vader is doing nothing against it and (being the experienced swordfighter he is) he should have been able to take an advantage because of Luke's angry swings - he didn't.
Where’s your proof? You can’t dispute that Vader has seen firsthand what happens to Sith who try to convert Jedi and it is not what Vader wants(unless you want to convinve me that Vader wanted to die).
Ever watched ESB ? Vader did want Luke to join him and get rid of Sidious. He said that. I don't think that his motives changed in the six months from ESB to ROTJ.
Vader is in a weakened state. He is able to draw upon the force to aide him less than he could in ROTS, for example. He is still stronger than he was in AOTC.
No he isn't. He's just more experienced but he had lost a great part of his force potential, tons of movement speed because of his artificial legs and arms and - considering the fact that he's breathing only because having a nice life support system - he has lost tons of endurance.
He is physically stronger than in AotC or ROTS but there is no way that he's a better duellist (lack of speed) or a better force user (because he lost great parts of his potential).
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
The last of the Luke fanboys has abondoned his ways.I have to concede that Luke isn't as good as I have said he is.
Not by ROTJ, anyways. Later? He apparently gets very good, and it's determinable.
And certainly my arguments have nothing to do with my liking or disliking of the characters involved. (ROTJ Luke is kickass and tromps all over AOTC "I luv teh s4nd!" Annie in the personality department). You just gotta learn to knuckle down and admit the obvious sometimes or risk looking REALLY stubborn.
I read somewhere that Kyp killed a Leviathan by calling a Force Lightning. Isn't that impressive? but as for him fighting Revan, im quite sure that Kyp's not in the same level with Revan, at least not yet. I dont really know just how potentially powerful Kyp is, does he have the potential to be at Revan's power? can anyone tell me?
Kyp is second in the NJO. Kyp could take Revan from the evidence I have seen and presented(mostly presented). Revan has never shown power on Kyp's scale(defeating a Leviathan and controlling a black hole) and Kyp also is speculated to have as much force potential as Luke. NJO Luke pretty much kills Revan, so Kyp has the potential to do the same thing. Note that is DN Kyp, who is NJO Kyp plus 6 more years of training.
Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Suspected by who? You? Glentract, he's powerful, but nowhere near Luke's level.Three words: beat by Vong.
Three more words: Luke killed seven.
Read the books. Suspected by the actual characters.
I can't remember which book Kyp lost in. Can you tell me which on it was?