Originally posted by Sorgo
I have provided more direct proof that Dooku controlled the CIS and Sidious did NOT.Even when Sidious tells Grievous to move it, he says:
DARTH SlDIOUS: General Grievous, I suggest you move the Separatist leaders to Mustafar.
^ A suggestion? Yes.
It says NOWHERE in the Databank or from Lucas that Sidious had any control whatsoever of the CIS. Nor was it obvious.
Lmao. Ah, yes. Need I remind you that General Grievous had bowed on one knee and addressed the Dark Lord as: Lord Sidious? Oddly enough, Grievous immediately agreed. That suggestion may have Sidious just pretending that he valued Grievous's opinion.
As for the Trade Federation, Gunray and his lackeys came to Dooku because Sidious betrayed them. Then, when the Clone Wars had begun, Sidious was revealed to be Dooku's master. But by that time, of course, Gunray had no choice but to continue. Dooku wouldn't let him waltz out of the Confederacy with that information.
Dooku, Grievous, Gunray, and the other Separatist Leaders knew of Sidious and addressed him as my lord. Dooku led the Confederacy in a sense, and he did form it. But it was Sidious who had the higher authority.
Originally posted by overlord
Yeah, Sidious gets his way but he doesn't own or lead trade federation. (going back on the actual topic)
It was never said that he led, formed, or owned the Trade Federation. Gunray and Haako led the Federation. But when they all joined the CIS, they put themselves back under Sidious's rule.
Lmao. Ah, yes. Need I remind you that General Grievous had bowed on one knee and addressed the Dark Lord as: Lord Sidious? Oddly enough, Grievous immediately agreed. That suggestion may have Sidious just pretending that he valued Grievous opinion.
Lmao. Grievous began to obey Sidious after the Death of Dooku. I am sure Dooku would insure that if Dooku passed, his Master would be in charge.
It states nowhere and has not been said by Lucas that Sidious had any direct or overhanded authority to Dooku before his Death. And there sure as hell isn't proof in the movies.
As for the Trade Federation, Gunray and his lackeys came to Dooku because Sidious betrayed them. Then, when the Clone Wars had begun, Sidious was revealed to be Dooku's master. But by that time, of course, Gunray had no choice but to continue. Dooku wouldn't let him waltz out of the Confederacy with that information.
He did betray them. This doesn't signify his ownership to the Army. Especially on Episode I: He was helping the army out, he wasn't the Master. He didn't own them whatsoever, they were partners.
Dooku, Grievous, Gunray, and the other Separatist Leaders knew of Sidious and addressed him as my lord. Dooku led the Confederacy in a sense, and he did form it. But it was Sidious who had the higher authority. [/QUOTE] [/B]
Of course they addressed him as Milord. Dooku was in charge and obviously wanted them to be completely respectful to his Master. This shows no proof that Sidious was fully in charge or had higher authority.
1. To my knowledge, Labyrinth of Evil is canon, because it detailed the events leading up to the capture of Palpatine. It has not been cited as wrong or non-canon by Lucas, and has displayed the events in continuity to be accurate. In that scene, Grievous takes orders specifically from Sidious, as does Dooku. Dooku gives orders to Grievous, which were given to Dooku to relay.
2. He doesn't own the Trade Federation. He doesn't own any of the commerce guilds. But he does control the CIS, because he controlled Dooku. He controlled Grievous. He controlled the Council. Notice a pattern?
3. Obviously? The way I see it, there is no proof to indicate that it was just Dooku asking the Separatist council to be polite to Sidious.
1. To my knowledge, Labyrinth of Evil is canon, because it detailed the events leading up to the capture of Palpatine. It has not been cited as wrong or non-canon by Lucas, and has displayed the events in continuity to be accurate. In that scene, Grievous takes orders specifically from Sidious, as does Dooku. Dooku gives orders to Grievous, which were given to Dooku to relay.
Books aren't Canon. They have no association with Lucas or Lucasfilm. If the Databank isn't considered Canon, why should the Books be? They have no relation to Lucas, have been known to clash with movie fact and artists that create the book have admitted to the favortism of a Character in the book.
2. He doesn't own the Trade Federation. He doesn't own any of the commerce guilds. But he does control the CIS, because he controlled Dooku. He controlled Grievous. He controlled the Council. Notice a pattern?
Sidious didn't own the CIS. He DOES NOT own everything and he didn't own the CIS and no proof has been given forth to this theory. Dooku has stone-clad proof that he was the Leader of the CIS. There is proof. I haven't seen any proof from the Movies, the Databank or anything else except Sidious' control of the CIS after Dooku's death. He started giving Grievous orders after Dooku's death but Grievous was Dooku's Toy, not Sidious'. Obviously, Dooku told Grievous to listen to Sidious. I mean come on, man! Sidious was Dooku's Master! Of course he is gonna tell people to listen to his Master!
3. Obviously? The way I see it, there is no proof to indicate that it was just Dooku asking the Separatist council to be polite to Sidious.
No, Of course not. That is just a Theory. But there is proof that Dooku completely leads and owns the CIS and Sidious has no proof of being Higher Authority or even having a secondary say during Dooku's lifetime.
Shadow -
The Council was formed to assist with the governing of the CIS with Grievous and Dooku. But the fact of the matter is this. Sidious was the one who gave Dooku, Grievous, and the Council their orders. As Ush and the others have put it: ultimately, the CIS was controlled by Sidious.
Sorgo -
You use the adjective obviously far too much. If it were obvious, we would not be debating right now. Grievous was actually brought to Sidious's attention before Dooku's. Sidious instructed Dooku to do whatever he could to bring the General to the CIS. So, San Hill and Dooku had Grievous's body destroyed. Grievious is Sidious's toy. Hell, Sorgo. Everyone in the PT and OT were Sidious's toy.
The fact is this. Dooku obeyed Sidious. Grievous obeyed Sidious. The Council obeyed Sidious. Sidious was the benefactor, the de facto leader, and the mastermind behind it all. They obeyed Sidious. All of them. Sidious controlled the CIS.
Originally posted by Escape81
Shadow -The Council was formed to assist with the governing of the CIS with Grievous and Dooku. But the fact of the matter is this. Sidious was the one who gave Dooku, Grievous, and the Council their orders. As Ush and the others have put it: ultimately, the CIS was controlled by Sidious.
Sorgo -
You use the adjective obviously far too much. If it were obvious, we would not be debating right now. Grievous was actually brought to Sidious's attention before Dooku's. Sidious instructed Dooku to do whatever he could to bring the General to the CIS. So, San Hill and Dooku had Grievous's body destroyed. Grievious is Sidious's toy. Hell, Sorgo. Everyone in the PT and OT were Sidious's toy.
The fact is this. Dooku obeyed Sidious. Grievous obeyed Sidious. The Council obeyed Sidious. Sidious was the benefactor, the de facto leader, and the mastermind behind it all. They obeyed Sidious. All of them. Sidious controlled the CIS.
Shadow-
No that's like saying Bush owns the senate.
Originally posted by Sorgo
Show me proof Sidious controlled the CIS, not just theories. Do you really think Sidious controlled everything? He didn't.And I didn't see him owning everyone in the OT. Especially when Vader chucked him into a Shaft.
Okay. Just to clarify this, as this same attitude has been argued with before. What you're doing, Sorgo, is playing on words and events. You also spouted that Sidious must be weak because he was chucked down a reactor shaft by a guy in a respirator. Oddly enough, that guy in the respirator had the strength of three men. But like several others before you, you leave out that detail.
So, let me reiterate. Everyone in the PT. Dooku, Maul, Anakin, Padme, Yoda, Mace, Jango, Gunray, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and all the others were used and manipulated by Sidious. Sidious outsmarted, outwitted, outdid them all. Like every other person in literature, he had faults. He failed, in the end. All villains do. But as far as control or manipulative power, Sidious has no equal. You do this to undermine his achievements. As I said, he failed. But for the most part, Sidious used them all as toys. Dooku included.
Secondly... It has been established that Dooku, Grievous, and the Separatist Council led, created, and governed the CIS. It has also been established that Sidious controlled them. So, he controlled the leaders of the CIS, thus making him the ultimate authority in it.
Originally posted by Shadow x 20
Shadow-
No that's like saying Bush owns the senate.
No. The United States government has a formal system of checks and balances. President Bush does not control the Senate. You see, the Senate was established to make the laws, whereas the President executes them. It is the reverse. Sidious makes the laws and commands, and Dooku, Grievous, and Gunray all obey, and thus execute.
Okay. Just to clarify this, as this same attitude has been argued with before. What you're doing, Sorgo, is playing on words and events. You also spouted that Sidious must be weak because he was chucked down a reactor shaft by a guy in a respirator. Oddly enough, that guy in the respirator had the strength of three men. But like several others before you, you leave out that detail.
Sidious was never a Direct fighter. He was never good at physically defending himself or doing so in Lightsaber combat. I mean... Damn he was good. Killed three Jedi and was on par with Yoda.
It's Ironic..... Sidious could foresee alot of things, but the one thing he could not foresee was his quick death. He was smashed in the face by his own arrogance and couldn't even sense the fact that Vader was to save his son and that Vader had feelings for his son. Such a Mastermind. He owned the Galaxy, basically played the PT Characters like chess pieces... Until he was destroyed by Vader.
Wait.... Sidious' Cane is a cover-up, according to you. Why didn't Sidious just move fast like you claim he did with Luke? Or why not just quickly Force push Vader? Or counterattack? Couldn't he foresee it? Didn't he have that power?
Yeah, Vader had the strength of three men but Sidious had the Force power of Four men and he had a very capable Foresight ability... apparently....
Like I said before... Just because Sidious was Dooku's Master or Higher level to Grievous doesn't mean he owned Dooku's army. Show me proof he owned the army or that he was even in lead command. I continuously ask you for proof that Sidious was in lead of the CIS before Dooku's death.
What do I receive?
THEORIES
^ And only those. Until I see proof, I will not buy it.
I am a Realist. That is just the way I am.
Sorgo, here is where you disappoint me.
1. Sidious was good enough to where he had Mace on the defensive, killed three Jedi Masters, and none of Yoda's blows broke through his defense. Oh, he's very skilled at it.
2. Sidious's foresight was superior to anyone else's in the PT. I defy anyone who says otherwise. His only competition is Yoda. Sidious is, and I'll put emphasis on it: NOT PERFECT!!. No one, not even in Star Wars, is. Not Sidious, not Mace, not Yoda, and not Dooku. Sidious made mistakes! His foresight, like the Jedi before him, waned! It was still good enough to make him (and I'll put emphasis on this, as well) EMPEROR of the GALAXY.
3. Sidious's cane IS a cover-up! I've told you, and so has Faunus. He discarded the damn thing in his throne room, where he was under the eyes of only VADER and LUKE. Next thing you're going to come up with is that the cane was secretly in his hand all along, or that Vader somehow used the Force to make him walk without it. Sidious USED the cane to APPEAR weak. Does the scene in ROTS not ring a damn bell when he FAKED weakness to Mace? He likes to pretend that he is weak. Damn, Sorgo...
4. Read point two. You know, I grow tired of this. Go read all of the Star Wars works. Go to the site. Go ask any other debator on here, and they will all tell you the same. Sidious had outstanding foresight ability, but, like everything else - it faded. Also, Sidious was so intent on torturing Luke that he didn't even spare Vader a passing glance.
5. Grievous took orders from Sidious. Gunray and the council took orders from Sidious. Dooku took orders from Sidious. All of the leaders of the CIS took orders from someone else... that someone is technically the leader. Also, it isn't Dooku's army. It belongs to the commerce guilds. So go prove to me that it belonged to Dooku. 😛
Like hell I'm reading those two pages.
Dooku had total control of the Confederacy, but he was acting under Sidious's orders. Sidious himself did not lead them, but he was the mastermind of it, and the master of Dooku.
Also, if what Dooku said was true, about "The Viceroy of the Trade Federation was once in league with this, Darth Sidious, but he was betrayed, ten years ago, by the Dark Lord." If that was true, then do you really think Gunray would AGAIN be allying with, and taking orders from Sidious?