You really think so? 🤨
But I would still like some better competition..
I could just as well create a sock and argue better in your place but the point is that I believe otherwise and at least I have elaborated.
Why else would Sorgo have opened this topic anyway? To get owned?
I don't think so.
I think Dooku and Sidious both had a fair share in decieving the whole galaxy without Dooku just following orders. Sidious just ended up being the more intelligent one.
Oh definetley it was a fair share. And I doubt very much that Sidious made every decision. But he had least had to approve of the major ones. I'm not talking about battles or invasions either.
The whole fake kidnapping, I don't know whose idea it was, but Palpatine had to agree with it.
Palpatine approaced Dooku though, to become a Sith, but who's to say that Dooku didn't come up with the Confederacy idea? He MAY even have come up with the Clone idea.
By title, and public knowledge, yes, Dooku DID own the CIS. Yet Dooku took orders, no matter how erroneous they may be, from Palpatine, though without the masses' knowledge. If Palpatine demanded something of the CIS, or Dooku, or Grievous, they did it.
That makes Palpatine, the unofficial, the secretive, the unknown to all except the Jedi, yet absolute, leader of the Confederacy.
Some good points in contribution to the thread indeed.
But IMO, the commands are more like favors and agreements out of mutual interests and mostly due to their respect for one another and Dooku's pride.
Sidious did indeed have friendly relationships with his apprentices and I think that with Dooku this was most of all the case because of both being veteran tutors.
But as Dooku was a political guy, I believe that he wasn't bossed around on that part of his life. Of course when it comes to the actual sith part he was disciplined by Sidious because that is what one needs when being an apprentice.
I just believe that for the rest they just were equal conspirators with Sidious just being the most devious although it's usually the apprentice who succeeds the master.
In MY opinion, I just can't see these two collaborating like Ike and Montgomery.
I don't dispute their obvious friendship. I'm great friends with my boss at work, yet if he tells me to do something, I have to do it.
Though for Dooku, the punishment for insubordination wouldn't be being let go...he'd die. Sidious would kill him if Dooku refused to listen to Sidious, that's why Palpatine is the master.
I can't, however, see Palpatine ordering Dooku around like a common grunt.
In a nutshell, I see the two associating like business partners. They listen to each other's ideas and comments. But when it comes to the final word, Palpatine will have his way, whether it was his idea or Dooku's he wants executed.
Yes, exactly but it's probable that Dooku ruled the confederacy in his own right with his own manipulation of worlds and people (like what he tried with Obi Wan in AotC) and that Dooku and Sidious both kept their attention to their own political manipulation whilst actually collaborating and having an even higher aim.
I do agree however that Sidious had more skills in convincing and such but that Dooku just trusted Sidious too much in their grand scheme like what would have happened with the whole kidnapping of Palpatine and such.
And Sidious was of course the tutor of Dooku in the ways of the sith but I believe that Dooku's pride only let Sidious discipline him at that but would not accept commands in the ruling of the confederacy. In that part they were more like devious allies.
Well actually the SW database even states that the neimodians were even just adviced by Sidious to go to Mustafar..
And on the case of Dooku building the confederacy they don't grant Sidious any input at all! But I'm not that official in this topic.. I view it as though Sidious had a major influence on Dooku with their friendship.
How could an argument like this expand so many pages when the concept is quite simple to grasp.
Dooku had complete and utter Leadership over the Confederacy. Sidious downright owned Dooku, so that means that Sidious could tell THE LEADER OF THE CONFEDERACY to do whatever he wanted him to do.
Sidious didn't lead the Army technically. Although he did lead it through Dooku and took full throttle control after Sidious' death.
Well.. According to various database sources, Dooku first lead the separatists movement while being a dark jedi and then became a follower of the sith cult.
The database somehow doesn't give Sidious any credit at all for the actions of the confederacy. It only states Dooku forming the confederacy of independant planets with various political parties and him plotting attacks while nobody expected it.
And since Sidious being a decieving bastard and still having to lure Dooku in to following the sith religion, I think it's highly probable that Sidious didn't actually rule Dooku on the political part because of Dooku's pride and the supposed friendship but that he just adviced and plotted with.
Yeah, but the sepetarists already were threatening to split up the galaxy according to the database but before the actual meeting on Geonosis with all the other parties, Dooku was suddenly a follower of the sith cult.
I don't think Dooku would've needed Sidious to become so influencial since the jedi already didn't expect him to gear up for war.
But what Dooku imagined to be the role of the sepetarists in the grand plot is uncertain to me. I don't know if he actually believed that Sidious would let himself be captured just to let them take over the universe.
He did leave the jedi to form the sepetarists because of being unsatisfied with the corrupt way's of how the universe was run.
It is stated that he became the leader before being lured in to following the ways of the dark side.
But yeah, I've actually debated Dooku's pride and loyalty already for a good number of pages. I think I must just keep it at my opinion that Sidious only disciplined him at the ways of the sith and being chums at the rest..
😬
Well, Dooku was a very strong Sith...one of the best we've seen. As a duelist, he was nearly unmatched and it's been a longstanding debate of him vs. Exar Kun in a duel match. The guy was as proud as they come...as for loyalty....when Sidious was vulnerable he didn't finish him off, that'd take a bit of loyalty, or foresight...in Dark Rendevous he does know it'll be him or Sidious one day, hence his attempted recruition of Obi-wan
Yeah, he could've killed Sidious when he had the chance because most sith eventually do that but because of strong signs of friendship between pupils I am lead to believe that it was just an agreement to get captured by Grievous.
Only Maul was a typical weapon of Sidious' disposal and when it comes to Vader, he did befriended him but Palpatine became official leader over everything by then so Vader had to comply.
But Vader was never as politically minded as Dooku and Dooku was a proud tutor himself. I figure he only let Sidious train him for his own greed in becoming stronger but wouldn't allow Sidious to order him around at what has been his life; namely the political ambitions.
Yeah, but the word master is taken much too serious in English. I call my painting instructor master for example and I compare it to Dooku calling him that out of respect and because he studies under him.
But I wouldn't let my teacher order me around at my whole life, neither would Dooku.. But they were indeed close just like Anakin was so that Sidious indeed had some influence but not in a master/slave relationship.
I wouldn't be able to see his motives to becoming student again anyway to just be slave like and let Sidious rule him at everything he lived for. Dooku's pride wouldn't let him become a student again just so easily after so many years of being a teacher and certainly not with Sidious controlling him. But it has clearly been shown that Sidious treats his apprentices with very much respect and Dooku's greed would have allowed him to begin training again.