Sidious owns the Confederacy?

Originally posted by Tangible God
Like hell I'm reading those two pages.

Dooku had total control of the Confederacy, but he was acting under Sidious's orders. Sidious himself did not lead them, but he was the mastermind of it, and the master of Dooku.

Also, if what Dooku said was true, about "The Viceroy of the Trade Federation was once in league with this, Darth Sidious, but he was betrayed, ten years ago, by the Dark Lord." If that was true, then do you really think Gunray would AGAIN be allying with, and taking orders from Sidious?

Gunray found out two months after the battle of Geonosis, Tangible. He had no choice. Dooku or Sidious would've killed him if he tried to leave.

Originally posted by Escape81
Gunray found out two months after the battle of Geonosis, Tangible. He had no choice. Dooku or Sidious would've killed him if he tried to leave.

Originally posted by Tangible God
True enough, he always was someone else's b*tch. But if he knew from the start do you think he would've?

Fear is an excellent motivator. Gunray probably would, if simply out of fear. Sidious may not be all-powerful, but he can sure as hell adapt the image to his underlings. When you have Vader, Maul, Gunray, Dooku, and Grievous all bowing down at your damn feet, you must appear to be powerful. If the fear didn't get to Gunray first, the lust of power would.

Yeah, like Dooku, he probably figured that he'd have Sid's undieing favour if they won the war.

Indeed. But regarding the Confederacy, it was indeed under Sidious's command. Count Dooku led the political factions of the CIS, Grievous led the military, and the Separatist Council did a mix of both, and led the commerce guilds that built the Confederacy's army. They all obeyed Sidious. I doubt it was just Count Dooku saying:

"Well, listen, you gotta obey my master or else..."

Sidious was in contact with the Separatist leaders two months after the Battle of Geonosis. Grievous took orders from Dooku, but directly obeyed Sidious. As in Labyrinth of Evil, Dooku was dishing out orders to Grievous when Sidious's hologram popped up. Dooku shut up. So did Grievous. Both didn't acknowledge eachother while their master was there. They both were rigidly controlled by him.

So, when you control the leaders of an organization, you are the true leader. The true power. Which is what Sidious was.

Why go so deep into it? We all know Sorgo's vision to Dooku and Escapes vision to Sidious but let's just keep it at Dooku officially leading the whole crap organisation.

Originally posted by overlord
Why go so deep into it? We all know Sorgo's vision to Dooku and Escapes vision to Sidious but let's just keep it at Dooku officially leading the whole crap organisation.

This is not about my opinions of Sidious or Dooku. This is about who led the Confederacy. Dooku led it to the public. But the power behind it was Sidious. He controlled the leaders. It's a fact.

Your 'controlling' is called manipulation and I'm talking about officially ruling.
But this thread only contributes to the global Sidious vs Dooku battle that is going on. It's in every thread and it is making me hate those characters.

Originally posted by overlord
Your 'controlling' is called manipulation and I'm talking about officially ruling.
But this thread only contributes to the global Sidious vs Dooku battle that is going on. It's in every thread and it is making me hate those characters.

It's not on every thread. That argument pertained to Dooku and Sidious in the Force and in saber skills. This involves who has the higher authority.

Oh, and officially? Officially it is the Separatist Council who leads the CIS. But we know that sure as hell isn't true. Sidious was the power behind the CIS. Dooku, Grievous, Gunray, Argente, Poggle, and all the others took orders from Sidious.

Sidious ruled the Confederacy, just like he ruled the Republic. Not officially, but in actuality.

So Dooku rules it with others, Sidious is the manipulating factor and convinces them to do stuff for him and all that crap. Just get over it that Sidious doesn't control it.

But Jesus Christ, the constant defence for Sidious everywhere, it is making me hate him even though he's my favorite character.
You must admit that both your fanboy mentalities are shining through like crazy.

Originally posted by overlord
So Dooku rules it with others, Sidious is the manipulating factor and convinces them to do stuff for him and all that crap. Just get over it that Sidious doesn't control it.

But Jesus Christ, the constant defence for Sidious everywhere, it is making me hate him even though he's my favorite character.
You must admit that both your fanboy mentalities are shining through like crazy.

I'm not a Sidious-fanboy. If I had an inclination to be anything, it would be a Yoda fanboy. The reason you see me defend Sidious so often is that you have some people who undermine his skills as a Force-user and so forth. When I am told that Obi-Wan Kenobi's lightsaber skills may be equal to Sidious's, I tend to get a little. . . drastic.

Now. The point is...

1. Sidious ordered Dooku to construct the Confederacy.

2. Dooku obeys Sidious.

3. Grievous obeys Sidious.

4. Council obeys Sidious.

Holy crap! Look what that means! Oh yeah. . . it means Sidious rules the Confederacy.

1. Sidious was good enough to where he had Mace on the defensive, killed three Jedi Masters, and none of Yoda's blows broke through his defense. Oh, he's very skilled at it.

^ Didn't I JUST point that out? Damn, Escape.

2. Sidious's foresight was superior to anyone else's in the PT. I defy anyone who says otherwise. His only competition is Yoda. Sidious is, and I'll put emphasis on it: [B]NOT PERFECT!!. No one, not even in Star Wars, is. Not Sidious, not Mace, not Yoda, and not Dooku. Sidious made mistakes! His foresight, like the Jedi before him, waned! It was still good enough to make him (and I'll put emphasis on this, as well) EMPEROR of the GALAXY[/B].

Sure it was good enough. But the one thing he could not forsee was his own demise? That's something to laugh at.

3. Sidious's cane [B]IS a cover-up! I've told you, and so has Faunus. He discarded the damn thing in his throne room, where he was under the eyes of only VADER and LUKE. Next thing you're going to come up with is that the cane was secretly in his hand all along, or that Vader somehow used the Force to make him walk without it. Sidious USED the cane to APPEAR weak. Does the scene in ROTS not ring a damn bell when he FAKED weakness to Mace? He likes to pretend that he is weak. Damn, Sorgo...[/B]

^ Thank you for nicely pointing that out. Unfortunately, I have no idea why you would point that out..... WHEN I AGREE WITH YOU! But like I said... If Sidious wasn't weak, why didn't he find a way out of Vader's grip? Wasn't he EMPEROR of the GALAXY and more powerful than Vader?

4. Read point two. You know, I grow tired of this. Go read all of the Star Wars works. Go to the site. Go ask any other debator on here, and they will all tell you the same. Sidious had outstanding foresight ability, but, like everything else - it faded. Also, Sidious was so intent on torturing Luke that he didn't even spare Vader a passing glance.

Sidious made a Fatal Error. Here's another thing he didn't sense: The true love Vader had for his Son. Sidious' Arrogance slapped his Intelligence and whipped into full gear. Sidious is always sensing people's emotions, but he could not sense that the man beside him had feelings for his son and that the man beside him would be his final demise? Sidious likes to underestimate his opponents... Alot...

5. Grievous took orders from Sidious. Gunray and the council took orders from Sidious. Dooku took orders from Sidious. All of the leaders of the CIS took orders from someone else... that someone is technically the leader. Also, it isn't Dooku's army. It belongs to the commerce guilds. So go prove to me that it belonged to Dooku. 😛

Sidious WAS Dooku's MASTER. Dooku LED the CIS. SIDIOUS tells DOOKU what to do with the army because he is DOOKU'S MASTER. This does not mean he owns the army. Dooku made alot of his own decisions with the Army.... More than Sidious ever did before his Death.

Actually.... Do you remember Sidious giving the CIS orders to do something when Dooku was alive? No.... BUT I do remember Sidious giving orders to DOOKU on what to do. Dooku owned the Army, Not Sidious. But Sidious owned Dooku.

My point is if somehow Sidious let Dooku off to go f*ck off and be some Politican and no longer be his Master, Sidious would have ZERO say over the CIS.

And no... He is NOT Technically the Leader, because he is NOT the Leader of the CIS..... COUNT DOOKU is the LEADER of the CIS.

Originally posted by Escape81
I'm not a Sidious-fanboy. If I had an inclination to be anything, it would be a Yoda fanboy. The reason you see me defend Sidious so often is that you have some people who undermine his skills as a Force-user and so forth. When I am told that Obi-Wan Kenobi's lightsaber skills may be equal to Sidious's, I tend to get a little. . . drastic.

Now. The point is...

1. Sidious ordered Dooku to construct the Confederacy.

2. Dooku obeys Sidious.

3. Grievous obeys Sidious.

4. Council obeys Sidious.

Holy crap! Look what that means! Oh yeah. . . it means Sidious rules the Confederacy.

As for Sidious ruling, this means nothing. Sidious doesn't have the actual power, Dooku has it in this case. Sorry, you can't win every little Sidious thing. Sidious is clearly working through and Dooku happens to comply.
Dooku doesn't obey like some tool, he has a will of his own.
Dooku is still the one in position and he does as his mentor advices him to do. If Dooku actually dissagreed with something, then he would probably act out his own will.
But since this is not even the point..

Then it's safe to say that Sidious is the manipulative factor and not the actual ruler.

Compare this to George Bush being influenced by companies for example or worse. It's still he who rules the country.

But why did you dedicate so much time to this thread anyway?
Just let this little battle be handed over to Dooku as it is futile and obvious.. Don't worry, the Dooku/Sidious fanwar still is far from over.

Sidious does onw it. He basically owns Dooku so he owns the Confederacy.

Sorgo, Sidious - despite his Force mastery - is still, physically, an old man. He couldn't have broken out of Vader's grip, considering Vader is (I reiterate) incredibly strong.

Overlord, Count Dooku does have a will. But he obeys his master. Sidious is his master. Not his mentor. Not his pal. Not his chum. Sidious is boss, and Dooku does what the boss says. It isn't like Dooku is taking requests. He's taking orders.

Call me a fanboy. That's fine. I'd have the guts to admit it if I were. There is nothing wrong with being a fanboy, in my opinion, other than the horrendous reputation they get. At least Sorgo has moments where he listens to logic. But I will continue to defend Sidious until he is placed on the exact level he should be. Just like if Yoda or Dooku or Mace had the public opinion that Sidious gets, I'd be out there defending them too. Fortunately, all three are held in high esteem around here.

Also, Overlord. If you'd like me to get some quotes made by myself that prove that I state when Sidious is owned, I'll do it. You'll be eating your words if you accuse me of being a fanboy. I perceive things fairly. The fact of the matter is that Palpatine is vastly underrated here. Most people confess that they underrate him simply because they dislike him. So, I do my best to bring that public image up to the level where it belongs. Thus, I will defend him, and thus you, unfortunately, are going to have to get over it.

Let me put it to you like this. I am just as much of a fanboy as Nai Fohl, Ianus, Illustrious, or IKC. If you categorize them as fanboys, you're deluded.

You are obviously offended, I guess you fear that I'm right or something. Just read through this thread. You say his name so many times (even when not needed to state your point) that one could think you were in love with him or something.
Not to mention why this thread is just so damn important to you.

As for the topic: Sidious can order a federation, hell.. He can even select the council in question. But the council is the one that makes the actual decisions. Sidious can rock and rule all you want but it is still the leaders of the actual confederacy who are in power.
You respond to this thread as if you believe that Dooku does every little thing Sidious asks of him. Dooku has a free will. Just because Sidious can convince him, advice him or boss him around it is still Dooku who is in charge.

I'll give an example: Dooku can just decide to have nothing to do with Sidious anymore and just lead the confederacy on his own. No matter how angry Sidious gets. Dooku is granted official power and can do what ever the hell he wants.
Sidious doesn't own his apprentice as some slave who wil even kill himself for his master. Nay, Sidious is strictly a manipulative power.

If you still can't see this.. Then fill in the blanks..

Originally posted by overlord
You are obviously offended, I guess you fear that I'm right or something. Just read through this thread. You say his name so many times (even when not needed to state your point) that one could think you were in love with him or something.
Not to mention why this thread is just so damn important to you.

As for the topic: Sidious can order a federation, hell.. He can even select the council in question. But the council is the one that makes the actual decisions. Sidious can rock and rule all you want but it is still the leaders of the actual confederacy who are in power.
You respond to this thread as if you believe that Dooku does every little thing Sidious asks of him. Dooku has a free will. Just because Sidious can convince him, advice him or boss him around it is still Dooku who is in charge.

I'll give an example: Dooku can just decide to have nothing to do with Sidious anymore and just lead the confederacy on his own. No matter how angry Sidious gets. Dooku is granted official power and can do what ever the hell he wants.
Sidious doesn't own his apprentice as some slave who wil even kill himself for his master. Nay, Sidious is strictly a manipulative power.

If you still can't see this.. Then fill in the blanks..

Erm, firstly, it would seem that it is important to you as well, as you've posted here quite a bit yourself. Ups. Also, I'm not easily offended at all. But then again, your accusations of fanboyism will be crushed if I so choose to bring out some of my evidence. Fanboyism, on the general scale, means the absence of logic. Sorgo is a god amongst fanboys, because he listens to logic more than most fanboys. I can tell you when Sidious will be owned. In fact, Faunus has a higher standard of Sidious's power than I do. So . . . might as well not bring up this point again, because I've lamented on various threads that Sidious is far from being all powerful or an uber-god. So, keep it up, and you'll eat your words. Kinda make you look like an idiot, kk? 😂

Secondly, Dooku can't do whatever he wants because Sidious is his master. Sorry, but Dooku doesn't even labor under the delusion that Sidious treats him as an equal. Granted, the Count is far too clever and too skilled to be treated like a mindless minion such as Maul, but Sidious is his master. Master. Now, my point again takes the forefront, unless you're going to argue that by being a master, you mean partner and friend. 😉

Yeah, sure it is important to me.. You see that only because it is the case with yourself. Don't deny that you are taking this small topic incredibly serious.

And don't worry about your fanboyism. Remember: I only said your constant Sidious talk was beginning to get annoying, yet you immediately take it to another level.

And you can stop using the exact same argument you have been using in this entire thread. You are implying that Sidious has Dooku as a slave with your definition of master. Dooku is an age old veteran and tutor himself, he is willing to accept training from Sidious all because of his own greed. Do you think Sidious disciplined Dooku? I don't think so. This Dooku's pride is too much on his own as he himself has been a tutor and 'master' of Makashi. He only goes and study under Sidious through greed.
As for ruling the confederacy.. Officially he rules it and even in his own right does he rule it. Just because Sidious is a threatening presence and a man who Dooku would consider equal doesn't mean that Sidious owns him. I still believe Sidious is just an adviser and manipulative power in ruling the confederacy. Your single repeated argument doesn't convince me otherwise.

Now I can understand that you still can't understand where I am coming from but heck, cut the Sidious owning Dooku crap.. We know this opinion of yours now and it isn't very constructive in my opinion.
Just because Sidious outwitted Dooku and manipulated him in more than Dooku could have ever known doesn't mean that Sidious automatically own Dooku as some puppet.
It may seem like this but it is logical to say that it isn't.

Oh yeah.. And just cut the arrogant nonsense with "I'll make you eat your words", just because you actually have a mind doesn't mean I'm impressed.

Originally posted by Escape81
Indeed. But regarding the Confederacy, it was indeed under Sidious's command. Count Dooku led the political factions of the CIS, Grievous led the military, and the Separatist Council did a mix of both, and led the commerce guilds that built the Confederacy's army. They all obeyed Sidious. I doubt it was just Count Dooku saying:

"Well, listen, you gotta obey my master or else..."

Sidious was in contact with the Separatist leaders two months after the Battle of Geonosis. Grievous took orders from Dooku, but directly obeyed Sidious. As in Labyrinth of Evil, Dooku was dishing out orders to Grievous when Sidious's hologram popped up. Dooku shut up. So did Grievous. Both didn't acknowledge eachother while their master was there. They both were rigidly controlled by him.

So, when you control the leaders of an organization, you are the true leader. The true power. Which is what Sidious was.